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American Morning

Spying at Home; Cosmic Booty

Aired January 13, 2006 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A little bit of mist in the air there on the east side of Manhattan.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, but it's strangely warm outside. It's almost scarily warm.

MILES O'BRIEN: What, are you complaining?

COSTELLO: No. Actually, people at work were complaining this morning because they couldn't wear their really cool winter sweaters. So there you go. It shows Americans . . .

MILES O'BRIEN: I'm lost without my mink. If I can't wear my mink, it just ruins my day.

COSTELLO: Americans are never happy.

Coming up on AMERICAN MORNING, we're going to talk to a man named Russ Tice. He's an NSA whistleblower who claims the NSA was doing something illegal by eavesdropping on more than a handful of Americans. Now he may land in a criminal investigation himself. Lots of interesting questions for him this morning.

MILES O'BRIEN: The National Security Agency. NSA is a place that, you know, we're just learning about the tentacles that they have. And it's not well known. Everybody thinks of the CIA. The NSA is really quite an operation.

All right, let's talk about one other thing. We are going to be seeing a spectacular sight over the weekend. Are you going to be up in the wee hours? Oh, you wound see it here.

COSTELLO: Absolutely (INAUDIBLE) your report.

MILES O'BRIEN: But you can watch it on NASA television.

COSTELLO: Oh, great.

MILES O'BRIEN: Or CNN for that matter. As the Stardust return capsule comes back. If you live along Interstate 80 thereabouts, in the northwestern part of the United States, either stay up late or get up early, whichever way you go on that, and you will see a streakier meteor come across in the wee hours of Sunday morning. In it lies pieces of a tale of a comet. COSTELLO: Oooo. Oooo.

MILES O'BRIEN: And that's exciting for astronomers because comets are nothing more than dirty snowballs, but they are the basic building blocks, the ingredients, the recipe of all that is us.

COSTELLO: You're selling it, baby.

MILES O'BRIEN: Is in a comet. So we may unlock some real mysteries based on this space craft return.

COSTELLO: Kelly was riveted.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I was riveted, yes.

MILES O'BRIEN: On the edge of her seat.

WALLACE: On the edge looking at Miles to explain it all to us. But we're going to talk about some other news now.

Hello, everyone.

We're beginning with President Bush, who's meeting with Germany's new chancellor this morning, and their focus expected to be on Iran. Just about two hours from now, the president hosting Chancellor Angela Merkel. The meeting comes as European allies have pledged to try to push Iran to drop its nuclear efforts. And we expect to hear more when President Bush and the German chancellor hold a joint news conference at the White House. CNN will have live coverage beginning at 1:25 Eastern Time.

Confirmation hearing for Supreme Court Nominee Samuel Alito pick up again in less than two hours without Judge Alito, though. Some final witnesses testifying today. A Senate panel wrapped up its questioning of Alito on Thursday. Confirmation vote is expected early next week, but some Democrats could try to delay that vote. And we'll bring you some live coverage of this morning's hearings set to resume at 9:00 a.m. Eastern.

Some disturbing news to tell you about regarding the new Medicare drug program. It seems thousands of low-income seniors and disabled Americans are without drug benefits. The problem seems to affect those people whose drug coverage was automatically transferred from Medicaid to Medicare this month. Worse than expected start-up problems are being blamed. More than a dozen states have stepped in to pay for some of those prescriptions.

And in political news, former presidential candidate Al Sharpton may be considering another bid for the White House. Sharpton crisscrossed New Hampshire Thursday. It was his first visit since he lost the presidential primary there in 2004. Sharpton was coy, however, about whether he'd run again. He says he's thinking about it.

Carol, they're always thinking about it, right?

COSTELLO: Yes, they are, but at least he's good for some interesting soundbytes. WALLACE: That is true.

COSTELLO: Thank you, Kelly.

It's tough to blow the whistle on your employer. But when you work for the National Security Agency, it's a whole new game. Russ Tice suspects the NSA broke the law eavesdropping on American citizens. Now his allegations may land him in a criminal investigation. Russ Tice joins us now live.

Good morning.

RUSS TICE, NSA WHISTLEBLOWER: Good morning.

COSTELLO: You want to tell Congress about your allegations. Fill us in first. What are you alleging?

TICE: Well, I was involved in what's called special access programs, which are very close-held programs. And I believe that there were some abuses that happened in those programs. And there seems to be very little oversight. And ultimately . . .

COSTELLO: What kind of abuses?

TICE: Well, because these programs were so closely held, I really can't go into detail or even, you know, go over a broad brush as to what's going on, because I could ultimately give away these programs.

COSTELLO: But you're talking about illegally eavesdropping on more than a handful of Americans?

TICE: Well, that's what's been reported ultimately through "The New York Times." But these programs don't necessarily always, you know, follow that sort of trend. For the most part . . .

COSTELLO: But . . .

TICE: I'm sorry, go ahead.

COSTELLO: But your allegations are different from the allegations contained in "The New York Times" article, right?

TICE: That's correct.

COSTELLO: But, like, are they similar allegations?

TICE: Yes and no. And I wish I could go into detail, but if I went into detail, I think they'd be waiting for me with cuffs and leg irons.

COSTELLO: We've talked to the NSA, and they told us that you never complained to them while you were working at the NSA about these allegations. Why didn't you do that? TICE: Well, within the very small community where these programs worked, actually, I did bring up some of these concerns. There's a very limited number of people that are involved in these things, so you really can't go up the ladder with these things ultimately because there's no ladder to go up.

COSTELLO: You've left the agency, and we should tell our viewers why. You were, essentially, fired in May of 2005. Why were you fired?

TICE: I was fired because a while back I suspected a coworker being involved in espionage. And basically, I was blown off by the Counterintelligence Office, and I continued to see a pattern that led me to believe that there was still something going on. And I sort of pushed the issue, and it just so happens that the individual's mother was well-placed in government and had a lot of pull. And I think the NSA security office, in line with the pull from the mother of the individual, pretty much made sure that, you know, my concerns weren't heard.

COSTELLO: It got more complicated than that, though, because they called you into this psychological evaluation and they -- and what did they find after administering that?

TICE: Well, nine months after my routine psych eval -- and periodically you get these in the intelligence community -- where I passed with flying colors. The very same office at NSA, in security, called me in for an emergency psychological evaluation after they found out about the issue with the potential espionage. And the very same office very quickly determined that I was paranoid, and revoked my security clearance as a result.

COSTELLO: So then you were fired.

Let me just try to get one thing clear. Your allegations are separate from "The New York Times." But in reading through my research, you say you're one of the sources for "The New York Times" article. So which is it?

TICE: Well, I talked to "The New York Times." and I told them things that were unclassified, mainly about technology. They would ask questions like, is it possible to do this with the technology that exists today? And I would say yes or no and I would tell them, you know, how the technology works and ultimately whether it could be done with the technology.

COSTELLO: But you didn't specifically tell "The New York Times" that the NSA was allegedly eavesdropping on Americans illegally?

TICE: I did not tell "The New York Times" anything that was classified.

COSTELLO: All right, Russ Tice, thanks for joining us this morning. We appreciate it.

TICE: You're more than welcome. COSTELLO: We want to get now to David Ensor. He is our correspondent. Because, you know, Russ Tice is making some alarming accusations, and we want a reality check.

So, David, give us this reality check. Is this man credible? DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it is extremely difficult to assess Mr. Tice's charges for a couple of reasons. NSA officials are constrained from talking about them, both by the privacy act, which basically says, you know, among other things, government officials can't trash each other in the media. And secondly, by the enormous secrecy of the programs that Mr. Tice worked in and is alleging wrongdoing in. He's made four basic charges and it's very difficult to get an assessment of them.

COSTELLO: Well, why don't you run through those charges, because I was confused about exactly what he's alleging.

ENSOR: Well, first, he's alleging that a coworker might be a spy for China. Secondly, he's alleging that, after he made that allegation, the NSA's process of removing his clearance to see classified material and then firing him was unfair and done as sort of a witch hunt. Thirdly, he's alleging lawbreaking in the special access programs, the very top-secret programs that he himself was working in. And fourthly, he is now a public critic of the domestic surveillance program that we've been hearing about since mid-December that "The New York Times" reported about and Mr. Bush authorized, under which some Americans are being wiretapped, it would seem.

COSTELLO: OK. So he wants to take those allegations before Congress. So where does that stand? Can he do that? Will he be able to do that? And is he part of a criminal investigation because you know what the president said?

ENSOR: Well, you know, he is not a source for "The New York Times" story. He did talk to "The New York Times." But as he made clear to you, he talked on basically other matters or related matters. He didn't help them break that story. It was news to him when he saw it in "The New York Times."

But that said, he wants to go to Capitol Hill, and he's trying to figure out where the appropriate committee is to go. And, oddly enough, he's trying to go it first to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, but he's been told by the NSA they aren't cleared to hear the secret information that he has about the special access programs. It looks like he may end up talking to perhaps the Armed Services Committee. It's just not clear at this point. Somebody's got to do oversight here, though, clearly. Somebody has to look into these allegations carefully.

COSTELLO: Yes. Well, you're right about that. And, of course, this story is not over.

Our National Security Correspondent David Ensor joining us this morning. Thanks so much, David.

ENSOR: Sure.

MILES O'BRIEN: Let's check the weather. Chad Myers is at the CNN Center. And some wild weather going across the southeast this morning.

Chad, good morning. (WEATHER REPORT)

MILES O'BRIEN: Andy "Minding Your Business."

Andy, you've been working long duty this morning.

ANDY SERWER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I have, yes.

MILES O'BRIEN: You came in early, and you've got a long day ahead. So thank you for penciling us in.

COSTELLO: You're a trooper.

SERWER: Boy, thank you, guys. I like the support.

All right. Still more deadly fallout from the hurricane season, entailing the nation's most successful airline and tomatoes. Stay tuned for that, coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN: Oh, it's "Baywatch."

COSTELLO: "Baywatch."

MILES O'BRIEN: "Baywatch."

I'm not even in the shot. I'm sorry, I should be quiet.

SERWER: That's OK.

MILES O'BRIEN: Oh, there I am. "Baywatch."

SERWER: I think there's a Charles Nelson Reilly endowed chair of comedy at Florida State University.

COSTELLO: Really?

SERWER: I believe. I want to check it out.

COSTELLO: Did you take the course?

SERWER: No, I didn't go to FSU, but isn't that cool?

MILES O'BRIEN: Wow.

COSTELLO: That is pretty cool.

SERWER: I like Charles Nelson Reilly. COSTELLO: As is this, because yummy, yum, yum, there's nothing better than a juicy hamburger, right?

SERWER: Yes.

COSTELLO: The meat, the cheese, the tomato. Oh, but the tomato might be a problem. And that's what you're here, really, to talk about.

SERWER: I am. And it's a hurricane-related storiy, if you can believe that. A couple hurricane-related stories.

I want to start with Southwest Airlines. Does Southwest know something other businesses don't? It often does. A very successful airline. In fact, the most successful in the United States. They are coming back to New Orleans. Adding five flights between New Orleans, Dallas, Houston, and Orlando. They once had 50 flights a day coming in and out. Cut back to 13. Now they're up to 18.

And, in fact, next month they're going to have a big conference there. One of the first companies to do so. Three hundred employees for a three-day marketing meeting. And it's nice to see New Orleans getting back onto the job.

Now another hurricane story. Tomatoes. Apparently, and we'll get to that in a second, Florida's hurricane season has wreaked havoc upon the nation's tomato supply. This according to Wendy's. Wendy's says they don't have enough tomatoes. And, in fact, if you want a tomato on your hamburger, you're going to have to ask for it, OK? It's not going to just come there. You have to ask special.

COSTELLO: Really?

SERWER: They use 85 million pounds a year. Now here's the wrinkle. McDonald's says, what shortage? A McDonald's spokesperson says, we don't have a tomato shortage, we don't anticipate any because of good planning.

COSTELLO: That's because they use synthetic tomatoes.

SERWER: Oh, no, we have contingency plans if there are any issues, and we haven't had any. Which, you're right, where are they getting them tomatoes from?

COSTELLO: Yes.

SERWER: Because it's probably not Florida, but maybe it's just the California solution?

COSTELLO: Ohio. There are a lot of tomatoes in Northwest Ohio. Maybe from there.

SERWER: Not this time of year, though.

COSTELLO: Not this time of year.

SERWER: Unless they have greenhouses. MILES O'BRIEN: Northwest Ohio?

COSTELLO: Yes.

SERWER: Tomato capital of the world in Northwest Ohio.

COSTELLO: Yes, they grow tomatoes there in the summertime. SERWER: Well, you can grow them in Alaska if you, again, use a greenhouse. I mean, right?

MILES O'BRIEN: Yes, but the greenhouse might be filled with other things.

SERWER: Like greenhouse gases?

MILES O'BRIEN: Yes.

COSTELLO: Oh the dilemma.

SERWER: All right, we should stop.

MILES O'BRIEN: Greenhouse gases. Of course, they would be filled with greenhouse gases. Yes.

Thank you, Andy.

SERWER: You're very welcome.

MILES O'BRIEN: Coming up: look, up in the sky -- it's a bird, it's a plane. No, actually, it's a coma.

COSTELLO: A coma.

MILES O'BRIEN: The coma of a comet. The star dusk space craft will streak home over the weekend, perhaps unlocking some big mysteries of our solar system. Andy was going to leave the set. He's going to stay for this because he's so interested.

SERWER: Miles is in love.

MILES O'BRIEN: With the comet's tale. Yes, that's it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN: Thank you, David Matthews and band.

If you're a police dispatcher in the northwest U.S. on duty this weekend, get ready for some wild calls about a UFO. It's not the war of the worlds. It's manna from heaven for astronomers who want to unlock mysteries of the solar system. We're talking about the return of the Stardust spacecraft. I asked our friend Jack Horkheimer, director of the Miami Planetarium, about the cosmic payoff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN: Thanks very much for being with us, Jack.

Let's -- first of all, before we talk about what is in this space craft, which is very interesting on its own right -- let's talk about how people will be able to see it. This will be essentially a streaking meteor, and a lot of folks will get quite a show if they know where to look. Tell us where to look and when. JACK HORKHEIMER, DIRECTOR, MIAMI PLANETARIUM: Well, you have to be in the northwest part of America. Northern California, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Washington, Utah, Nevada and Idaho. And people out there should check their local paper to the last minute to get the last details or Google, as I always do, to get the very up-to- date, last-minute trajectory of this space capsule.

It will be very bright for about 90 seconds. In fact, it will be brighter than the brightest planet, Venus, and that is super bright. It will look like a very bright, pink streak of light flashing across the sky. And NASA is asking everyone and JPL to try to videotape this and photograph it from various locations so they can compare the brightness levels and the trajectory from various angles from all these different states.

It's going to be very exciting. I wish I could be there.

MILES O'BRIEN: Oh, you're kind of on the wrong end of the country, aren't you, there in Miami.

Let's show people exactly what's happening as this re-entry capsule comes in, and why it is such a streaky media. First of all, this is the rendezvous, which occurred back in 2004, with the comet Wild 2. It looks like Wild 2, but it's Wild 2. And what happened was, this -- it had, well, a little comet dust catcher on there, which captured some of the comet's tail. And that's the portion that is coming back. It's made of aerogel, which is the lightest substance that we know of. And on it comes back. What is in that comet tail that is so interesting to scientists?

HORKHEIMER: Well, we have to really consider this an archaeological extraterrestrial expedition. It's really space archaeology. You see, four and a half billion years ago, when all the planets formed, comets also formed. But the planets have changed drastically many, many times over the periods of billions of years. Comets are some of the few things that we believe still contain the original, unchanged, pretty much stuff, the original stuff from the formation of the solar system. So if we can capture this stuff from the tail and from the head, the coma of the comet, and analyze it, we'll better be able to tell what kind of material in its original state was floating around the solar system just as the planets were being born. Including our Earth.

MILES O'BRIEN: Here's another interesting way that people can participate. Not just videotaping the entry, they also can help analyze the data. I find this very intriguing. People can actually see the close-up pictures of what comes down and what is trapped in that sort of comet dust catcher, and participate. Tell us about that. HORKHEIMER: Well, this is the ultimate hands-on space mission. If you go to the right Web site, you'll be able to download hundreds of thousands of pictures of these space particles that land in the aerogel in the spacecraft. And NASA and JPL and the U.S. Air Force want everybody, as many people as possible, to look at these pictures in specific ways and thus narrow down the research to make the research move faster along.

MILES O'BRIEN: Jack Horkheimer, it's time for your signature tag line.

HORKHEIMER: Well, I hope that everyone, especially in Nevada, early Sunday morning will remember to go outside and keep looking up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN: All right, dear viewer. You want to know when and where to look. Here's the comet. Here's it coming in. Why don't you freeze it for a minute so I can draw on this, if you will, Ted Fine. This is the time zone line for you. We've done a lot of research on this this morning. It goes something like that. OK? On this side, it's Pacific. On this side, it's Mountain. It's 2:12 Pacific, 3:12 Mountain. Of course you know what time zone you're in. Depending on what time and whether you're an early riser or a late partier, go outside and look into the western sky, and you're in for a treat.

COSTELLO: And you're in what?

MILES O'BRIEN: In for a treat.

COSTELLO: Oh, in for a treat.

MILES O'BRIEN: What did you think I said?

COSTELLO: I thought you said frateet (ph). I thought, is that another weird Miles word?

MILES O'BRIEN: Frateet. It is French for the comet returns. La frateet.

Coming up, we are watching out for some dangerous weather today. Could get really nasty outside. Tornado watches already posted in a bunch of states across the South. Of course, Chad is watching that very closely for us. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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