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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired January 20, 2006 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Richard Roth and this is the last program of DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. We have been cancelled.
Nearly 13 years ago when the program idea was first hatched, the title was not DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. Take a never before seen look now at what is called in the TV industry the pilot for our U.N. themed show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: This is Richard Roth, outside the United Nations. This organization has certainly changed a great deal over the years. Right now, the United Nations is in the middle of several world crises; another big week for Bosnia, Somalia. For most people, this building is all they see or know of the United Nations. We'll try to keep a resolution of our own this week: to take you inside the United Nations. For that, welcome to the "Delegate's Lounge."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

The lounge is now closing. I'm glad you can join us for the final DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.

It's never easy getting diplomats to appear on camera, and even more difficult to get an ambassador to do an interview for our program test run back in 1993, an interview which would never run on air.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Strong words indeed, but nothing our guest today in the "Delegate's Lounge" hasn't been saying for months. He's the Bosnian ambassador to the United Nations, Muhamed Sacirbey.

Ambassador, welcome to "Delegate's Lounge."

MUHAMED SACIRBEY, FMR. BOSNIAN AMB. TO U.N.: Pleasure, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Muhamed Sacirbey didn't need any convincing back them to come over, or to chat today, 13 years later. Our futures are also both unclear. DIPLOMATIC LICENSE is going off the air and you're fighting in court to avoid extradition to Bosnia, the country you valiantly represented at the United Nations in the early '90s.

Did you take $2.4 million, which some in your country accuse you of?

SACIRBEY: I actually took a lot more, including my own money, and used it for Bosnia. But, actually, the problem isn't in Bosnia. No one in Bosnia of any substance at least is accusing me of any crime. Actually, the problem is coming from this country.

Like you, I've fallen out of favor with certain officials, former officials from the State Department.

ROTH: You think the United States government is going after you politically and that's why you are now fighting extradition with a U.S. district court judge, awaiting a decision?

SACIRBEY: Yes, and I'm actually ready to go back to Bosnia to address any issues that may be open, but I've just found out that there is not even an open investigation, not a legal investigation going on.

But nonetheless, it's important to resolve it, and I think it's also important to set the record straight in this country, and it's unfortunate that we have seen in the name of national security, in the name of U.S. executive rights, all sorts of liberties being taken in this country.

ROTH: You're still wearing the ankle bracelet, right, by court order?

SACIRBEY: Not very proudly, but I am.

ROTH: OK.

SACIRBEY: I don't think I'm much of a flight risk, but it's one of those other things that's meant to really intimidate me, obviously beat me down.

ROTH: Well, much as we like you, the ambassador wasn't the first guest when DIPLOMATIC LICENSE premiered in September 1993.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Joining me now is the man in charge of all of those peacekeepers, U.N. Undersecretary-General Kofi Annan, in charge of all of those efforts.

You were born in Ghana. You moved up through the ranks of the United Nations, from budgets to personnel and now peacekeeping. Is this your toughest job?

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: Indeed it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: There were tougher jobs ahead. These were some of the headlines in the news the day Kofi Annan was in our studio in September '93. "Fighting Breaks Liberian Ceasefire and Spreads to Ivory Coast." Of course, now a woman is a president in Liberia and the fighting is in Ivory Coast.

"Arafat Moves Toward Palestinian Self Rule." Well, he has gone and Palestinians will conduct parliamentary elections next week. Still no homeland, though.

"Explosives Experts Replicate World Trade Center Explosion." Eight years later, a much bigger one occurred.

"U.S.-French-British Exercises to Counter Iran's Submarine Threat." That's very timely since those three countries want to counter Iran's nuclear desires. Iran now faces referral to the U.N. Security Council over its nuclear enrichment program. There will be a meeting in early February of the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, which could send the dossier on to the Security Council in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNAN: My own advice to the Iranians is to create an environment that will allow negotiations to go forward. I think they should not escalate. They should not press ahead with their nuclear fuel research."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The United States says Iran has overstepped the bounds of international law. Iran says it has the right to pursue peaceful use of nuclear research.

U.S. Ambassador at the United Nations John Bolton anticipates delaying tactics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: If history is any guide, what we're going to see here over the next couple of weeks is Iran trying to throw sand in our eyes to try and obscure the issue and try to prevent the matter from being referred to the Security Council.

But if this isn't something that the Security Council should take within its jurisdiction, then I don't know what issue -- I don't know what issue would be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: We'll look ahead now with Iran and continue to look back at DIPLOMATIC LICENSE with, what else, of course, some guests.

James Bone was with me from the very start of the program. He may have been called recently an overgrown schoolboy by our first guest, Kofi Anna, though the two got along very well on that first show 13 years ago.

Also with us, a frequent guest on the program, the Ambassador from the League of Arab States, Ambassador Mahmassani. At our U.N. office, two journalists who share a room at the United Nations, that is Colum Lynch of the "Washington Post," and Philippe Bolopion of Radio France Internationale and "Le Monde."

Of course, Ambassador Sacirbey will stay with us.

James, sorry to see both of us go from the program. What do you think is going to happen at the Security Council with Iran, which will continue despite our disappearance?

JAMES BONE, "TIMES OF LONDON": Well, Richard, I think if you look back over the 12, 13 years that we've been doing this show, the Security Council hasn't met the major challenges very well. Remember, we had the genocide in Rwanda, we had Bosnia, we had the Iraq War now, we had Pakistan going nuclear. We've had many failures of collective security. Kosovo is another one, where the Security Council was unable to agree.

So my feeling, unfortunately, is that the United Nations isn't very well equipped to meet the very large security challenges that emerge, and Iran apparently wanting to go nuclear is one of those very large security challenges.

ROTH: Philippe, this time, unlike with Iraq, France is on the side of the United States and Britain and Germany on this.

PHILIPPE BOLOPION, RADIO FRANCE INTERNATIONALE: Yes, exactly, but I don't know how far they are going to be able to go, because even once the file is referred to the Security Council, what is the Council going to do? There is still no support for real sanctions on the part of China, and then even if you decide to sanction, which kind of sanctions do you apply to Iran? And which sanctions can have international support and also prevent Iran from getting in a sort of isolation and get a nuclear weapon?

So it's very difficult, and I think that the referral to the Security Council is only the beginning of the problem.

ROTH: Arab States Ambassador Mahmassani, what do you think?

YAHYA MAHMASSANI, ARAB STATES AMB. TO U.N.: I think what we have to make clear is the following. First of all, that nuclear research for peaceful use is legitimate. Everybody has a right to pursue such a step. But research for nuclear weapon, this is something unacceptable and should be condemned and should be stopped. And we don't like to see anyone at this in our area, developing nuclear weapons. And we also would like to see those who have nuclear weapons, and I refer particularly to one state, Israel, that already has a weapon, this should also be taken. I think --

ROTH: They've gone against what the IAEA had worked out with them and a European Union deal. Ambassador Sacirbey, what do you think is going to happen at the Council, where you fought for action against the Serbs for quite a number of years, sometimes unsuccessfully.

SACIRBEY: Well, the United Nations is a place where a lot of problems get dropped off. Sometimes as a way to avoid addressing problems. I think it's very interesting that Ambassador Bolton in this case, in fact, has called upon the United Nations Security Council to act. And it probably is the only institution that may be in a position, collectively or through its individual members, to address the problem. And maybe actually this tells us that the United Nations after all does still have some mileage to run despite some bad mouthing that it gets.

In the case of Bosnia, the United Nations, I think, was many times unfairly blamed.

ROTH: All right, Colum Lynch, does the United States and Britain and the others have the votes? Or are we going to see a statement of condemnation and tune in several months later?

COLUM LYNCH, "WASHINGTON POST": I think there is a good chance that that -- I mean, they claim that they have the votes and I think that there is a good chance it will make its way to the Security Council.

But as James and Philippe said earlier, I mean, it could sort of fall on its face here. If you recall, I mean, the United States had been trying to do this for three years, to get it into the Council. And they'll get it here and they may find that they're in a very awkward state, not being able to move forward and to sort of enforce demands that are likely to be made in the Council.

You'll recall that North Korea came before the Council a couple of years ago, and it still has gone nowhere.

MAHMASSANI: If I may just go in, Richard, here, I think the Council has to deal with these issues seriously, but the most important thing is to take decisions that are applicable, that you can implement those decisions. It's no good for the Council to go and take a decision and then not implement it.

So what the Council has to do is not only to take a decision that no country has to develop a nuclear weapon, but also to implement that decision. And in other words, you've got to get a resolution that's acceptable and at the same time implementable.

ROTH: Whatever happened to those sanctions against Sudan that quieted down a cry about genocide and inaction -- Philippe?

BOLOPION: Yes, the same actually for Cote d'Ivoire, you know, the principle of sanctions was voted, and ever since sanctions have never been applied. So there is -- it's always easy in the United Nations to threaten with sanctions and things like that, but then you have to gather the international support for these things. It's not always there. And for Iran, you'll see Iran, like Syria, who are now allying together, the two parallels of the United Nations, you'll see them fight back, and it's going to be a very long and difficult battle. It's not going to be quick and easy.

SACIRBEY: We had sanctions against Milosevic's regime, and in many ways they didn't work. Some would argue they were even counterproductive, because obviously many criminals in Serbia got rich.

But nonetheless, I think the United Nations is still the place where ultimately all the worst obstacles have to come, because --

ROTH: We'll talk in our coming section about this place, the United Nations.

Just as we made Kofi Annan a star with his first appearance on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, we also spotlighted some so-called quote "minnows," the struggle by the East Timorese people for their homeland, for example.

Jose Ramos-Horta, now foreign minister, won the Nobel Peace Prize shortly after his appearance on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE in 1995.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE RAMOS-HORTA, EAST TIMORESE FOREIGN MIN.: Well, I am a bit surprised, shocked at such an outstanding segment, outstanding program, is closing down. I have known Richard Roth for many, many years, even when I was a nonentity. Somewhere in '95, he gave me 24 minutes on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAHMASSANI: Why are you in a hurry to go to war and bring death and destruction to the area? This is the real question we are asking now. We are not against a Security Council resolution if it doesn't mean going to war. This is the basic issue we're discussing.

ROTH: Give us your best case: what should it say, unless you've already been told what it says, and why is it needed?

JOHN DAUTH, FMR. AUSTRALIAN AMB. TO U.N.: Richard, I just want to say what a good job that you do moderating this program.

ROTH: Thank you. You can have extra minutes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Pre-Iraq War arguing, including one of our current guests, Ambassador Mahmassani, of the Arab League and that was former Australian Ambassador John Dauth, who just departed back home.

Well, Ambassador Mahmassani, we thank you for your appearances here. Our show is ending.

MAHMASSANI: Thank you. Well, I'm very sad you're not here, that the show is ending. I think you and your show have been instrumental in promoting diplomacy, dialogue and understanding. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will miss the show. You had a big audience and I think to shut down DIPLOMATIC LICENSE is to shut down the voice of diplomacy through the United Nations and through you.

ROTH: Afsane Bassir-Pour was one of our original contributors, along with James Bone. She's on line one from Geneva, Switzerland. She now works for the United Nations.

Afsane, it was nice to have you from the very start of the show, so to speak.

AFSANE BASSIR-POUR, U.N. REGIONAL INFO. DIRECTOR: Yes, well, thank you, Richard, and I am very, very sad that this show is going off the air. It feels like an end of an era.

But we did have a good run. This all came about with you and I and James just dreaming up a show, and it had 12 years run. So, that's not bad.

ROTH: And now you've gone over to the other side, you're an information director, regional U.N. information for the United Nations in Brussels.

Let's talk about with some our guests who have decided not to leave the party early about the state of the United Nations.

Colum Lynch of the "Washington Post," the United Nations was involved in everything, it seemed, back in 1993, when we started the show, and now it all seems like on the sidelines. What's the condition? Where is it going?

LYNCH: On the sidelines? They still have as many peacekeepers out in the field today as they had in '93. They're dealing with Syria now, which is as aggressive an investigation in a foreign country that we've seen since UNSCOM. So in a sense, it's sort of d‚j… vu, I think, I mean, it's not the run up to the Iraq War, but they're still keeping themselves busy.

Just one thing I'd like to say about the show is, one thing I'm sorry about is, like, whose going to be fighting now for the enforcement of the U.N. smoking ban with you sort of.

ROTH: Well, Lithuania banning smoking starting in 2008. It was announced this week. I'd like to think our show contributed to it.

Ambassador, Sacirbey, do you think the United Nations has brighter days ahead, still has a place for responsibility in the world?

SACIRBEY: The United Nations is actually much more involved today than it was when I was the representative of Bosnia. And I think in many ways it's even more effective.

The problem with the United Nations, on the one hand, is the notion that it's not accountable, and on the other hand that I think some people do not favor the United Nations as they did in the past.

The United Nations has been tagged with many failures, but I think those failures were really of the lead countries in the world, not so much of the United Nations.

ROTH: James, Oil For Food has done great damage to the United Nations. Recently, Tongsun Park, who was a familiar figure in U.S. scandal days in the '70s, he was in a court in New York. He's accused of illegal lobbying and he may start talking. Who knows. What about the others? How is this going to play out in the years ahead?

BONE: Well, the great trouble with Oil For Food is it undermined the trust in the integrity of the institution, and when you do that, whatever the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) institution does, you can't trust the people doing it. So this is why Oil For Food is an important story, because it goes to the very core issue of trust.

My own take of the United Nations, Richard, is that it's an evolving legal system, and in some respects, collective security, I don't think it's in a very good state. But the thing that's happened in the time that we've done the show is this enormous expansion into international justice. We've had the Rwanda and Bosnia tribunals, the creation of the International Criminal Court. We've had similar things in Sierra Leone. We've had.

BOLOPION: Yeah, I agree.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLOPION: I agree with James.

BONE: Finally, I've waited for years to get him to agree with me.

BOLOPION: And I think the United Nations is doing pretty well and the worst blow might be the cancellation of the show, because the worst for the United Nations is not when it's criticized, which you did very well at times.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Afsane, two French people in a row. I don't know if we can do that. Go ahead.

BASSIR-POUR: Two quick points. One is that you see the United Nations basically from America, where you're sitting. Seen from the rest of the world, especially from Europe, the United Nations is not as marginalized, unlike as one might think sitting in New York in Washington.

BONE: Or in Geneva.

BASSIR-POUR: Or Geneva.

SACIRBEY: Afsane is absolutely correct.

BASSIR-POUR: And secondly, my line, as always, is as long as people, as in we the people, don't take an interest in the organization, it will always be used as a menu. Whenever you need the United Nations, you use it. Otherwise, you don't. People have to start getting interested in the United Nations and they are getting interested in the United Nations.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHMASSANI: I want to say something here also. Look, the United Nations is made out of membership. 191 members. It's so difficult to run the United Nations with the different views, different views are controversial.

But it's important that the United Nations has its ups and downs. It's what the membership of the United Nations makes the United Nations. This is the idea. And for now we should all try to look optimistically at the future of the United Nations. The United Nations is needed. We need the United Nations. We should not criticize the United Nations except if you.

ROTH: I'm always accused of cutting off guests. We've got one minute left in the final segment here, or the next to the last segment.

BONE: Well, one of the best lines I've heard is somebody said that the bombing of the United Nations office in Baghdad was the United Nations' 9/11, and the U.N. officials said, no, 9/11 was the United Nations' 9/11.

9/11 marked a change of era and the United Nations is struggling to make itself relevant in the post-9/11 era, and it still hasn't figured out quite how it's going to do that.

LYNCH: As we battle terrorism, we may end up losing the war.

ROTH: Give me one word predictions, a name: who is going to be the next secretary-general? Very quickly, jump in anyone.

MAHMASSANI: I don't think you can ever predict it now. Usually you have.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHMASSANI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but I think it's usually the last one, the last few minutes that you get.

ROTH: Well, they rallied pretty quickly to get Annan a second term.

Afsane, who is it going to be, even though you work for the United Nations?

BASSIR-POUR: If I were to predict it, I would say a woman.

SACIRBEY: It's time for a woman, isn't it, Afsane?

ROTH: It's always time for a woman. Colum? Philippe?

LYNCH: It's time for Richard Roth. He's going to have some free time on his hands.

ROTH: I'm going to actually be lobbying in the next few months ahead, and I spent a lot of time in Asia.

I'd like to thank all of our guests here. Afsane Bassir-Pour, who is on the telephone, in Geneva, one of her many European spa locations, now working for the United Nations. Thank, from the start, from the very beginning. At the United Nations office, from Radio France Internationale, "Le Monde," Philippe Bolopion. Also at the United Nations, from the "Washington Post," Colum Lynch. And here, I'm very sorry to see this show end with all of you here, but I'm glad you're here for the final show. Ambassador Yahya Mahmassani, League of Arab State; Muhamed Sacirbey, he served time in jail, now he's fighting extradition back to Bosnia, Bosnia's U.N. ambassador, a key player in forging a peace, a Dayton Accord, 10 years ago. And James Bone, "Times of London," from the beginning, here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. Thank you, James, very much.

Kofi Annan was not the only secretary-general on the program. Three others, including Boutros Boutros-Ghali appeared, even after leaving office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB DOLE, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I am president, every man and every woman in our armed forces will know the president is commander-in-chief, not Boutros Boutros-Ghali or any other United Nations secretary-general.

ROTH: Listen to those cheers. I mean, how did you feel when hearing that?

BOUTROS BOUTROS-GHALI, FMR. U.N. SECY.-GEN.: I'm a politician, and you have to accept the point of view of the public opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After 12 years on the air, it looks like CNN is allowing its own DIPLOMATIC LICENSE to lapse. The secretary-general wants to congratulate Richard and Liz and all the others who have worked on the show for the last 12 years for a great run. So, congratulations to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: A classy send off from United Nations spokesman Stephan Dujarik (ph) on Friday at the United Nations during the regular press briefing.

It's still uncomfortable being the news instead of covering it, especially when it's about the end of your television mandate.

After we announced the cancellation last week, we asked for reaction from you. We got an overwhelming response from what is usually a quiet audience. We can't use them all, but we guarantee we read every letter and we will respond.

Here are excerpts from e-mail No. 1. "What a catastrophe," David McKenzie.

"It has taken several days to recover from your announcement. We are devastated that DIPLOMATIC LICENSE will no longer be on the air. DIPLOMATIC LICENSE is the only CNN program we look forward to every week to be enlightened, educated and entertained," that email from Russia.

"I was very disappointed to learn that the broadcasting of DIPLOMATIC LICENSE is being terminated by CNN. Why are only the good programs removed?" And that's from Paris, France.

"Forgiveness for this atrocious act doesn't lie in my heart," that email from Nigeria.

"This program is always informative, exciting, well-researched and we enjoy the contents and the way Richard Roth presents them, some of which other TV networks will not touch," that from the Cook Islands in South Pacific.

And, by the way, DIPLOMATIC LICENSE has been the second longest running program on CNN International after "Larry King."

Next email, "Richard Roth makes important but perhaps not exciting news interesting," CSM, Japan.

And now brace yourself, the one negative email we got from the viewers. "Good riddance and high time. Too bad, however, that CNN is not permanently firing that arrogant, obnoxious, anti-intellectual cretin Roth with a wolfsbane to never work in any TV station again." And that's from anonymous.

The other positive emails, "DIPLOMATIC LICENSE gives CNN a certain gravitas that similar broadcasters might envy and Richard Roth's anchoring has been wonderful in his erudite, gutsy, cordial and witty approach," from Daniel in Prague.

"The quality of DIPLOMATIC LICENSE is very high. I can't remember a single episode that tempted me to switch the channel or go to the kitchen for a coffee," from Eric. Actually, I did at times.

"I will have to start my own personal boycott of CNN if you cancel the best show on TV. I will send this email to as many of my friends in the diplomatic community as I can think of," Douglas, in my old hometown of Rome, Italy.

Another email. "Please have a rethink," Tom Pollock, Zimbabwe.

And, finally, "I am appalled that your excellent show is to be cancelled. Leave with your heads held high, guys. You did a great job for 12 years," Gavin Thompson, in Hungary.

We want to hear your thoughts. Instead of taping a show next week, we'll read the emails to ourselves if we have to. Email your comments to us at diplomatic.license@cnn.com. We will forward these letters and last week's responses to the proper CNN authorities.

I'd like to thank CNN for allowing DIPLOMATIC LICENSE time to say goodbye. We've always believed there's been a large, almost cult-like following of the program. The show has a small staff. I would like to thank all CNN editorial and technical staff for supporting and improving the program since 1993. Everybody from makeup, intern, control room, floor people, field crews, substitute host, everyone. CNN founder Ted Turner told me this week he was proud of the show and sorry to see it cancelled. Despite the topics of the show at times, it was fun to put together. We couldn't have lasted all these years without our tapes producer, the excellent Joe Vacarello (ph) and the incomparable producer and substitute host who does everything, Liz Neisloss.

Remember, diplomacy doesn't have to be dull.

That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth in New York. Thanks for watching.

END

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