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CNN Live Saturday
Two Miners Found Dead After Fire in West Virginia Mine; Osama Bin Laden Still Edudes U.S. Captors; Journalist Jill Carroll Still Held Hostage in Iraq
Aired January 21, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And they had also talked about -- and when I say "they," I'm talking about the mining safety officials -- earlier they talked about the roof collapse and how the fire and explosion had caused a roof collapse and that was further compounding things.
BRUCE DIAL, MINE EXPERT: Yes, the fire by itself, by the coal in the mine burning, it weakens the walls. And when it does that, the heat and the weakness of the wall cause the roof to fall in.
WHITFIELD: And, Bruce, we heard from the governor earlier. He is apparently going to be speaking momentarily, within this new hour, the 5:00 Eastern hour. But earlier, he mentioned the fact that after they learned the outcome of this effort, he was going to try to press for some sort of new safety measures or some changes in the mining industry, not just for West Virginia, but for the nation as a whole.
What sort of challenges or obstacles do you see ahead in any kind of potential reform that might affect West Virginia or any other mining community?
DIAL: Well, it's been almost 30 years since the last mine act was passed. I look for them to look at the new technology that's been -- that's been around for the last few years, to force that into the system more. I look for them to do more training of miners and the rescue teams and maybe more rescue teams in a closer area to every mine.
WHITFIELD: Bruce Dial, mining expert, thank you so much.
I'm going to ask you to stick around as we continue our coverage now of what has turned out to be very sad news in the mining community of Melville, West Virginia.
Carol Lin is going to step in and take over for the rest of this hour.
I'm Fredericka Whitfield.
Thanks so much for being with us.
And, of course, it's very sad news for not just this community, but for all mining communities, because we've been hearing over the past three weeks how intricately all of these mining communities are involved with one another. It really is one big family. CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: You bet, a brethren.
And, once again, bad news out of West Virginia, the second time in less than a month.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
LIN: So currently, Fred, right now we are waiting for a news conference. We are expecting to hear from Governor Manchin shortly. We have also got Bruce Dial from the Mine Safety and Health Administration to talk about mine safety and what happens next.
What is being done to protect these families and these men as they go down hundreds of feet, if not thousands of feet, into the Earth's surface to mine that coal for power?
And we are going to be talking about -- more about mine safety and what these men go through.
They're saying that the fire simply burned to such an extent that likely the two men who were found close together in that mine shaft probably did not have much of a chance to survive.
Chris Huntington is standing by out there at the story in Melville, West Virginia -- Chris, it's got to be devastating news for those families.
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, it is.
As I was telling Fredericka a few moments ago, we saw family members and friends pouring out of the church. It's only about 500 yards from where we are. This about half an hour or so ago, maybe 15 minutes before the official word. So we were getting the rumblings of the news before it was officially announced. And you could see it on the faces, the pained faces of these mothers, these uncles, these brothers coming out of the church, just looking devastated.
I want to, though, shift gears just slightly.
Over the last couple of days, in fact, weeks, Governor Joe Manchin of West Virginia, of course, has been forefront in his support of the miners and their families. But he's also made it very clear that when the time was appropriate, he would announce reforms, measures, a big push to improve mine safety in his state primarily. But then he said it would be a model for the entire country.
And we asked him pointedly about that last night and he said -- and you could see his hackles raising -- he said you're going to hear from me.
And the word is that when we hear from Governor Manchin in, we expect in about one hour, you will begin to hear the rumblings, I'm sure, rumblings that will go for quite some time.
Put this in perspective. This is an industry, the coal industry, that is under a lot of pressure to produce right now. Coal is in high demand. The current administration in the White House is pushing clean coal. It is our greatest -- America's greatest natural resource for fossil fuels and for creating electricity.
It is -- they don't have to elaborate as to why there is great pressure on the coal companies, on the coal miners, to produce as much as they can.
In the case of this particular mine, the Aracoma mine, run by the Massey Company, the workers that we've spoken to say that they considered this to be a very safe mine. But this was a non-union mine and the stories that we hear up and down the row here from people familiar with the mining industry is particularly in non-union shops -- and, again, I'm not specifically talking about the Aracoma mine or, for that matter, specially Massey. But the pressure in general and particularly on non-union mine workers to get the job done regardless is something that we have heard consistently from mining officials over the last several weeks. And it is something that Joe Manchin, the governor here, a Democratic governor in a Democratic state, in a coal mining state, is all aware of. And so we are likely to hear from him shortly.
LIN: All right, we're waiting to hear.
HUNTINGTON: The press conference, actually, we're told...
LIN: Go ahead, Chris.
HUNTINGTON: Actually, it may be starting sooner than we thought.
LIN: You bet.
Chris...
HUNTINGTON: Well, I think the press conference may be...
LIN: We're monitoring it, as well, Chris.
We are hearing that it could start at any moment. Obviously, things being organized on that end in Melville, West Virginia, after so much effort this morning to try to save the lives of Don Bragg and Ellery Hatfield, who were trapped, separated from 19 other men when a conveyor belt caught fire.
And according to today's press conference, when they delivered the bad news that these two men did not survive, that they had found their bodies, that likely the fire, as Chris had described the size of a football field, was simply too intense.
Their bodies found close together.
On the telephone with me right now is Bruce Dial.
He's a mine safety expert.
And, Bruce, first, for the audience just joining us, just hearing this tragic news, as we've all been following this story for days -- actually, right now, excuse me, Bruce?
DIAL: Yes, Carol?
LIN: We are going to take the news conference.
We're expecting to hear now from Governor Joe Manchin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... statements from West Virginia Governor Joe Manchin, from United States Senator Jay Rockefeller and from the United States Congressman Nick Joe Rahall.
Again, we will not have a question and answer session. These are just statements and immediately following that we'll be concluded with our media briefings and media availability for the remainder of the day.
With that, I'll turn things over to Governor Joe Manchin.
GOV. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: For over, what, 45 hours, we've been together with the families. We did not have the outcome that we had desired, that we were hoping for.
We have two brave miners who have perished. We're supporting the families. That's the role that we choose to play as far as support. They know our love for them. They know our commitment to be with them and to continue to help keep their families strong.
I can only say that I've gone through, along with our senator and our congressman and all of the people over the last three weeks over 85 hours that I've been in churches with families. And the suffering, just the pain that everyone has endured is more than any state should have to go through.
I can only tell you, we're -- this has got to stop and it's going to stop. We're going to change. And we have, as you know, we have investigations going on at Sago, where we lost 12 of our brave miners. And now at Aracoma, we lost two of our brave miners.
We have 14 families that have changed forever, 14 families.
If I have anything to do with it, if I am able, with every breath in my body, to make the changes that need to be made to make sure no family ever goes through what we've been going through, to make sure that every brave miner, every brave worker in this state knows that we're going to do everything to make sure they're in the safest conditions humanly possible.
Monday I will introduce in the State of West Virginia three pieces of legislation. I will introduce one that's going to be a rapid response. There's no way that we should not, and I repeat, should not be able to be responding as quickly as possible. If, god forbid, something happens to me health wise, I can get an ambulance fairly quickly. But something happens in a mining or industrial accident, it doesn't seem to work under the same urgency. And that's going to stop. It's going to stop in West Virginia. We will have rapid response. We're also, I intend to introduce electronic tracking. The technology is here. We have the technology and we are going to use it. We are not going to go through what we've gone through in three short weeks, looking for 14 brave miners, having families, with the suffering they're going through and the anguish and the anxiety that they're going through waiting, waiting and waiting because we are trying to make sure that we are doing everything we can to find them and also keep our rescuers safe, too. And time, hours, days go by. It's not acceptable and we're not going to allow it to go on one more day.
The third thing, I believe that there's not one person that works in a mine that should ever, ever pass away or perish because of a lack of oxygen or suffocation or asphyxiation. That should never happen in today's world with today's technology. So we will introduce legislation that will mandate that we have reserve oxygen stations and supplies within the mines.
We are going to commit ourselves to the workers of West Virginia. I will be doing this on Monday. On Tuesday, I will go to Washington. I will be with my representatives, Senator Rockefeller and Senator Byrd, our congressional delegation, Congressman Rahall, Congressman Mollohan, Congresswoman Capito. We are going to work to make changes in West Virginia and I know they're going to work to make changes in this great country of ours.
I can't tell you the pain that we have. I can't tell you -- I can't -- I can't express the sorrow I have for the families, for the Bragg family and for the Hatfield family, for the extended families, what they have endured, what we have gone together, again, through this. And I have said so many times, this is what makes this state of West Virginia so special. It makes us so different. Through tragedy, through all the heartache we've been through in such a short period of time, we still have the people so strong, so committed, pulling off of each other.
We're hurting. We're hurting bad. Each one of those family members are hurting as much as anyone could ever hurt. But if we stick together like we do in this state, we can pull everybody together and we'll get the needed support. We are now in a total support mode. We were in a total rescue mode. We are totally in support of these families and family members.
These two men that perished in this mine, the 12 men that perished -- the 12 men that perished in the Sago Mine, I can only say to each one of their families, who I've become part of -- I feel as if I'm part of their family -- that they have not died in vain. They're going to look back and one day say because of my dad or because of my uncle or my brother or my cousin, we have laws now that other people will be safe. They will not have to go through and endure what we did.
That's what it's all about. It's the commitment we make. It's the commitment I make on behalf of all of the resources we have in the State of West Virginia. It's the commitment I take with all the efforts that we can and with the help of our senators and our Congress representatives, making the change for the working people of America.
We're going to commit and make these changes. I promise that will be happening as quickly as humanly possible in West Virginia. We're going to do everything to make sure that our miners know, our working people in all of our industrial sites, all of our factories, all of the tough jobs that we take on every day in West Virginia to make America strong, I want them to know that we are doing and will do everything humanly possible to make sure they're able to return home every night to their family and loved ones.
That's my commitment. That's the State of West Virginia's commitment. And this is the commitment that our delegation in Washington is going to take forward for us.
I want to thank all of America for the prayers, again, for this great State of West Virginia. We felt, again, each and every one of them. All of them -- all of the encouragement, words of prayer and love, I can't tell you how much it means to these family members. They felt it. They were part of this. It's a part of their life that has been changed forever.
And I can tell you, the support that we gather, the support that's being brought, the support that you gave us is something that we truly, truly appreciate. And I can say how much that I appreciate what you have shown to the West Virginia miners and miners' families.
Thank you and god bless each and every one of you.
And I'd like for Senator Rockefeller, at this time, to say something, and then Congressman Rahall.
You've been with me the entire time and, again, I can only say that our prayers are with the families right now and our support. And hopefully you would understand that.
Thank you.
SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Thank you, Governor.
It was extraordinary to be in the church here, the Freewill Baptist Church, when the news came. There was tremendous crying, family, a sense of almost obliteration.
But I was in Sago for the last several days and there was a big difference because Governor Manchin came in and he told people what the situation was right away. And it was -- I was torn apart. They were more torn apart. But there was a kind of a sense of coming together after a period of an hour, an hour-and-a-half or so.
We know we kept you all waiting. We apologize for that.
But the helping is spiritual, it's individual and it's collective. And it has to do with the legend, the saga, the danger, the glory, the terror of working in coal mines.
What's on my mind, the governor and congressmen, is that, the fact that we had two of these accidents in such a short period of time, I want to think has not only awakened West Virginia, but has awakened America, thanks to what you all have done, to the fact that there's something called coal which people don't pay a lot of attention to and where we haven't had a whole lot of tragedies in just very recent years, which now I hope they're going to have a very different view about.
And it's affecting us. Yesterday in the Sago area, in Upshur County, we had four United States senators, three of them on the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, one of them in charge of the committee, another of them in charge of the MSHA, OSHA, all of that kind of -- and they were committed to -- and one of them is from Wyoming, Senator Enzi. They don't have much deep mining there. He wanted to come back here and get into a deep mine.
Why do I say this? We're not going to be able to solve the oil problem. We can solve coal and make it safe and acceptable so that people want to go in and mine it. I think there's going to be an enormous growth in the number of coal mines over these next several years. And some of them are going to be small startup operations. But the rules can't be different for them. The safety has to be as the governor has described it -- the oxygen available, the communications available, rescues -- the rescue squads reacting much more quickly than they have, at least in the Sago example. And we're going to change a lot of things.
It's often said, but there's no way better of saying it, that you can talk easily with somebody standing on the face of the moon and you can't talk to a miner a thousand feet underground to find out for sure what his or her position is, what his or her condition is, so that you can do something to help and perhaps bore down an air hole or something of that sort to be specifically helpful.
As the governor said, that day is now gone. It is, in my mind, forever.
The governor said the other day that he thought that coal mining was going to be changed forever. I think that's true. I think it's not only true in West Virginia, but in the 25 other states where coal is mined. And we will do that through federal laws. The Congress is not the most remarkably smooth operating -- operation I've ever seen. We all understand that. But I think there's a degree of determination on the part of our delegation, the Kentucky folks, the Ohio folks and the Wyoming folks, the people who work Western coal, that it's got to change.
Because we are dependent upon coal. It's been true for a dozen years, for 20 years, that we -- more than half of our energy comes from coal, not oil. But it's oil we talk about all the time. Now it's going to be coal and coal safety, coal responsibility with respect to not just environmental, but particularly safety things.
I just, before I came up here, talked to a mother. And she has one son at Marshall University who's going to be a sports broadcaster. And she was just sobbing because her other son, she doesn't want him to go in the mines. I think the governor and Congressman Rahall and I and many others don't want her to feel that way. We want her to feel that her son can go to work in the mines or her daughter can go to work in the mines and be safe. But we're going to have to help make that possible. In fact, we are going to have to make that possible, together with the management of the coal companies.
That will not all be easy. You all understand that. But there is a determination and a ferocity that I bear and that the governor bears, that Congressman Rahall bears.
When people get mad, they're more likely to do something. And I think when I go back to Congress on Tuesday to meet with the governor, what's happened at Sago and what's happened here, there's going to be a lot of mad people.
These are human beings and when you see them go through what they go through, you're never the same. You have helped America understand that. And I think we're going to see change. We have to. Coal mining has to be done. It needs to be done. It's in America's interests that it be done. And it has to be done safely and responsibly, and it shall be.
REP. NICK RAHALL (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Our thoughts and prayers are certainly with the families of the victims that we have lost today.
On their behalf, I say thank you to you in the media, who have respected their privacy during this difficult time. You have a job to do and at the same time you have done it in a way that has respected the families' privacy and we all appreciate that.
We all appreciate and thank the world for their outpouring of prayers and support that have been demonstrated over these difficult 48 or so hours.
We thank those rescuers who put their lives on the line so that they might try to save other life, a most difficult mission.
Doug Conway, Jesse Cole, the federal/state partnership was close in this particular instance.
I agree with Governor Manchin and Senator Rockefeller, the status quo is unacceptable. The status quo is unacceptable. I hardly think that in today's climate we can continue to allow these tragedies to occur without addressing the causes and how we can prevent it from occurring again in the future. That process is underway.
Governor Manchin has taken the lead in appointing a very professional and expert in David Makatier (ph) to head that at the state level.
At the federal level, we have to give MSHA the tools with which they can operate. If that means stopping the reduction in their budget, so be it. We must do it. We must provide the technologies that the governor has proposed in order to track miners in trouble underneath the ground.
It's unfortunate that every coal mine health and safety law on the books today is written with the blood of coal miners. It takes a tragedy, unfortunately, to toughen these laws and to pass them in the first place. But if that's what we have to do, so be it.
Again, to you, the press, thank you.
To the families, our hearts go out.
Yes, Governor Manchin has it right, we turn now from rescue to support. And we shall be there for these families as long as they shall need us.
Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congressman, senator, governor, thank you for your comments.
On behalf of the members of the media and those who worked here on the site, I want to generously thank Kaiser Longberg (ph) here in Melville, West Virginia for providing space for us, for the working media during the past couple of days.
And, again, I want to thank the media for respecting the wishes, for the most part, of the families.
LIN: All right, we've just been listening to a briefing, comments made by Governor Joe Manchin, Senator Jay Rockefeller, members of the congressional delegation from West Virginia, all calling for safety change inside those mines, Governor Manchin going so far as to saying that on Monday he is going to be introducing three pieces of legislation to guarantee that no one should die in those mines.
They include oxygen stations and electronic tracking and rapid response.
Bruce Dial is with the Mine Health and Safety Organization, a federal agency.
Bruce, if you've been listening in on this briefing, do you take comfort in the words that these politicians are offering these grieving families?
DIAL: Very much so, because, like you said, the technology has been there for a while. There was no regulation requiring it. And so that's what's needed. It's needed to have some regulations on the books that says they have to have this.
LIN: Why is it that the technology wasn't applied by these companies? What is the excuse there?
DIAL: Well, unless there's a mandatory regulation that says they have to have it, many mining companies don't have it. Some of the larger ones do, but 90 percent of them don't. LIN: Is it likely that either Sago or the Aracoma mine will be fined in some way?
DIAL: I'm sure as they do the investigation, they will find what caused the problems and if there were mandatory standards against it, they will be fined for that, yes.
LIN: I mean when you talk about 14 families now whose lives will be forever changed after the Sago Mine disaster and the Aracoma, now, mine disaster, I mean what hope do these families have, really, that federal laws will be changed?
How long will it take?
And do you believe that Congress will take this mission seriously?
DIAL: Well, I hope they do. In the past, it's taken between -- around seven years to get new regulations passed. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
LIN: Seven years! Why seven years?
DIAL: Well, by the time they get information and they get feedback from the mining industry and things like that, it takes about seven years to get new regulations passed.
LIN: In this particular case, with the Aracoma mine, there was a conveyor belt fire. These two men were separated from their group.
Do you think that any of these proposed changes would have saved their lives?
DIAL: I think it would have helped them find them faster. I don't know if it would have saved their lives or not. But I think the new regulations he's proposing would have helped cut down on the amount of time before they found the miners.
LIN: Bruce, stay with us on the telephone.
I want to check in with our correspondent on the scene in Melville, West Virginia -- Chris Huntington, I'm sure the families have been listening intently to what the governor and the congressional delegation are saying that they want to do for future miners.
How much confidence do you think they have that the system will respond to the needs of these families?
HUNTINGTON: You see that we are here with Senator Rockefeller?
LIN: Yes, we do.
Chris, go ahead.
HUNTINGTON: Thank you.
I'm joined here by West Virginia Senator Jay Rockefeller, who was just in that press conference.
Sir, you said when people get angry, things happen.
How angry are you?
ROCKEFELLER: Very angry because I was yesterday at a mine in northern West Virginia, where 12 people died, and today at a mine in southern West Virginia, where two people died. And it did not have to happen. There is a laxness about coal safety consciousness which the state legislature and the Congress are going to have to change. And you've got to get angry and stay angry -- you call it sustained rage -- until the laws change and people do things differently.
HUNTINGTON: Why has there been a laxness? With all the technological improvements that are available to the mine companies, why has there been a laxness in mine safety recently?
ROCKEFELLER: I'll use a bad example. In the first Gulf War, the Army and the Marines and the Navy and the Air Force, even though they were all in the landing in Iraq, could not communicate with each other. I can't explain why. All I know is it was outrageous, it was humiliating to a country and it probably cost lives.
The lack of the ability -- we can talk, as it has been said so often, to somebody standing on the face of the moon. But unless you can talk to a miner, a man or a woman a thousand feet below ground, in coal country anywhere in America, to find out if they're hurt, what their condition is, where they are and are they moving or not, how do they feel -- we have to be able to do that. We have to produce rescue teams -- it took five, six hours for some of the rescue teams to assemble.
HUNTINGTON: And that was fast compared to what they were able to do a couple of weeks ago.
ROCKEFELLER: Yes, and we just can't allow that anymore.
HUNTINGTON: What we've heard from a lot of rank and file coal miners in the last couple of weeks is that particularly those guys who are working in non-union mines are under a great deal of pressure and don't have the backing. And if they see a safety violation, they're putting their job at risk for saying hey, we've got to stop the belt because something's happening here. And that's consistently, we've heard those kind of stories.
I'm not asking you to comment on union versus non-union, but how do you get through to the mine companies that are driven by profit? Their product is in great demand. How do you get their cooperation to spend the money to make things safer for the workers?
ROCKEFELLER: You make requirements that safety, communication, technology be the same for all mines, whether they're great, huge mines or whether they're little mines just starting up.
In fact, one of the things I think we have to worry about are the little mines just starting up that don't have the capital yet. And you have to ask the question, can somebody go into business if they're not ready to do it safely? And I think the answer is no.
HUNTINGTON: Do you imagine you'll have allies in Washington when you get back there next week?
ROCKEFELLER: Yes. I think there are going to be a lot of angry people in Washington. I think -- and thanks to all of you in the media who put this all across the nation. I don't know that often is a brave thing that people say at the beginning of a fight and it fritters away. I don't think this one is going to fritter away.
HUNTINGTON: You know, yesterday we were talking with a local journalist who said boy, we appreciate the national attention you guys are giving this story. And my response was we need to hear more from you local guys, the local miners, the local people that live in these communities that really know the situation inside and out. They're the voices that really need to be heard.
And I'm sure, with your help, they'll be heard.
ROCKEFELLER: And not just the miners, but the families of the miners.
HUNTINGTON: Right.
ROCKEFELLER: Yesterday, up in the northern part of the state, we spent two-and-a-half hours with the families. And those families, I mean you don't think they know coal mining? I mean they're such a rich resource of ideas. People were -- senators were just scribbling down ideas one after another.
We just have to make that common to all who mine coal.
HUNTINGTON: Right.
Senator, thank you very much for joining us.
Senator Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia.
Thank you.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you imagine you'll have allies in Washington when you get back there next week?
SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Yes. I think there are going to be a lot of angry people in Washington.
I think -- and thanks to all of you in the media who have put this all across the nation. I don't know -- that often is a brave thing that people say at the beginning of a fight that fritters away. I don't think this one is going to fritter away.
HUNTINGTON: You know, yesterday we were talking with a local journalist who said, "Boy, we appreciate the national attention you guys are giving this story." And my response was, "We need to hear more from you local guys, the local miners, the local people who live in these communities that really know this situation inside and out."
They're the voices that really needed to be heard, and I'm sure with your help they'll be heard.
ROCKEFELLER: And not just the miners, but the families of the miners.
HUNTINGTON: Right.
ROCKEFELLER: Yesterday, up in the northern part of this state, we spent two and a half hours with the families. And those families, I mean, you don't think they don't know coal mining? I mean, there's such a rich resource of ideas. People were just scribbling down ideas one after another. We just have to make that common to all who mine coal.
HUNTINGTON: Right. Senator, thank you very much for joining us.
Senator Jay Rockefeller, West Virginia.
Thank you.
Carol, that's the latest from -- form Melville. As you've heard, an angry Senator Jay Rockefeller says he's going to take this to Washington. Joe Manchin's made it clear he's going to do what he can do here in West Virginia.
This is not the last you've heard of this push not only to make mine's safer, but as Joe Manchin alluded, to try and improve conditions for people in who work in tough jobs all across America -- Carol.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: You bet, Chris.
And of course it's a question of how quickly can Congress move and how quickly can those changes be made. We were talking with the mine safety expert, Bruce Dial, who said it takes an average of seven years to get a new regulation on the books.
In the meantime, families are waiting and wondering whether their loved one is going to be vulnerable next and what's going to be done to keep them safe. Governor Joe Manchin, before he came out and spoke with reporters, had spent hours with the families waiting to hear the news of what would have happened to these two men at the Aracoma Mine.
This is what the governor had to say about his experience with the families. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: No family should have to go through what we've been going through. I have sat for over 80 hours with family members. I become their family, and they're my family, and they'll be with me for the rest of their lives, these experiences that I have had in such a short period of time.
And with that being said, I'm committed. And I have said this. Our goal is not to have one accident, one fatality in the state of West Virginia.
Congressman Rahall and all of our representatives in Washington have the same feeling I have. With that, I'm going to be making a statement. This is not the time to do it. But I will do it before we leave here, and it's going to take some very bold steps and bold actions and what we're going to do in West Virginia, and we will talk about that.
But I'm never, ever wanting to sit through a situation that we've had to and the families endure and the human suffering that goes on and the wait, the agonizing wait. No one, no one in America -- and it's only because of the strength and love that we have for each other and our love for our god and our state and our country that gets us through it. And I can't give you any other explanation but that. But I'm going to tell you one thing, we're going to do everything we can to never put another family in this situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: The fire that broke out which ultimately ended up killing Don Bragg and Ellery Hatfield broke out 5:30 Thursday evening. And since then, the rescue effort has been -- has been if not fast, then furious and intense.
Bruce Dial, mine safety expert, on the telephone with me right now.
Bruce, just taking a look at all that the rescuers had to go through to even try to find out where these two men were, I mean, even to the point this morning of drilling down a 200-foot hole into the mineshaft just to try to communicate to see if these two men were alive. At the same time, we hear a lot about technology.
Why does it appear that the rescue attempts, the skills available to them, still seem so primitive?
BRUCE DIAL, MINE SAFETY EXPERT: Well, there again, it comes back to the regulations. Whenever the regulations require it, they will have it. If there's no regulation, it's an option whether they have it.
LIN: Well, give me an example of that, Bruce. In this situation, the fire broke out. There were a couple roof collapses which prevented rescuers from physically getting to the men.
I mean, what was in place to try to keep these men safe? And what wasn't? DIAL: Well, these men, there's nothing in place to help locate them quickly. All they're -- all they can do is take a best guess of where they saw them last and where they think they would go, and then they have to make arrangements to drill into certain areas which is not always easily done. And so it takes time.
There is technology out there where they could use -- it's kind of like a GPS system, where their mining light that they're wearing, they would be able to locate where that mining light is. Or there is a device where the miner might be able to activate that he carries on a belt that would give out a signal where they are located, electronically tracked.
LIN: But this isn't the first time that this discussion is being had, right?
DIAL: No. It's been for a couple of years now it's -- that technology's been around.
LIN: So where is the resistance? I mean, how much would a system like this cost?
DIAL: I'm not sure really how much it would cost. It would be-- it would cost more to get it implemented. Once your -- once its implemented, it wouldn't cost that much just to maintain it.
LIN: But it's the initial startup cost.
DIAL: That's right.
LIN: Something that Senator Rockefeller said was fairly ominous. He indicated that because there was such a demand for coal here in the United States, and obviously there's been a push by the Bush administration to have clean coal, try to take pressure off of the demand for foreign oil, but Senator Rockefeller just came short of saying that because of this high demand for coal, there is a possibility that people are going try to skirt regulations just to make that extra buck.
Do you believe that's true?
DIAL: I know that that's happened in past. When there's good money in coal, people try to get as much money as they can out of it. And they will try to take shortcuts, meet the letter of the law rather than the intent of the law. That type of thing.
LIN: Bruce, as we're talking, we're seeing pictures out of that community, the hardened faces of these miner who risk their lives. Tell us about the people who do the work. Why do they risk their lives in this manner?
DIAL: Well, the people in that area there, they've become comfortable with that situation. They grow up in that area, their family worked in the mines, and it's become an acceptable practice. They know there are things that could be done, but they're willing to take the chance that it won't happen to them. LIN: You know, because I think it takes a certain kind of person to be able to hoist themselves into -- and down 2,000 feet beneath the surface into a dark cave, sometimes crawling through tunnels that are only four feet high. And you've got to wonder the kind of courage that it takes to do that kind of work, not knowing necessarily that you're always going to come out alive.
DIAL: That's correct. It's a decision that they make, and once they make the decision, they try to put it in the back of their mind and not think about it all the time.
LIN: Bruce Dial, thank you very much for being with us. You've really helped tremendously, help us understand the system and what it's going to take to make change.
Bruce Dial with the Mine Health and Safety Federal Office Administration.
We are going to be right back with much more coverage.
Thank you very much.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Good afternoon. Here's what's happening right "Now in the News."
Actually, first, we're going to go out to Melville, West Virginia. We're going to check in with CNN's Chris Huntington.
Chris, we have been reporting this afternoon, this evening, that Don Bragg and Ellery Hatfield, the two miners trapped inside that mine in Melville, West Virginia, were found dead this afternoon. It's got to be devastating for that community there.
HUNTINGTON: Yes, indeed, Carol. It is -- it is the worst possible news.
As the time dragged on, though, it was the news that -- that people obviously didn't want to have to anticipate. But frankly, it was becoming more and more evident as the fire continued to rage inside the mine, a fire some six football fields large that, as time wore on and we approached 48 hours since the accident, since the fire broke out, that things were not looking good for these gentlemen.
Indeed, the worst possible news confirmed just a short time ago by mine officials and, indeed, the governor of West Virginia that Don Bragg, 33, and Ellery "Elvis" Hatfield, 47, both perished in that fire. They were found not far from the fire site and about equidistant apparently between the fire and where they were last seen by other miners who did manage to escape, some 10 other miners who were right with them.
So, Carol, not a good outcome here. It is, however, spurring a bit of a backlash and what should -- what promises, at least from the governor here in West Virginia and the congressional delegation of West Virginia, to be a strong backlash, a backlash driven, frankly, as Senator Jay Rockefeller put it, by anger, that they are going to make changes in mine safety here in this state and also federally.
The governor of West Virginia, Joe Manchin, very outspoken, saying that he's going to push for -- in particular for rapid response teams, for electronic tracking of miners inside the mines, and for mandatory reserve oxygen stations.
Stay tuned. You'll be hearing a lot from these guys, no doubt, in the weeks and months ahead. They plan to hit Washington in force early next week -- Carol.
LIN: That's right. Not only these two miners, but the 12 others from the Sago Mine disaster. So much tragedy for one state just in the last three weeks.
Chris, we're going to stay on top of this story throughout the evening, so stay right there.
In the meantime, we want to bring people up to speed on the latest news.
Gerald Ford's spokeswoman says the former president's condition continues to improve. The 92-year-old was admitted to a California hospital a week ago with pneumonia. Now, Ford's spokeswoman says he is responding to treatments.
And New York City commuters have cause to fear another transit strike. By the smallest of margins, transit workers rejected the tentative contract that ended the strike that halted buses and trains last month. Now with more than 20,000 workers casting ballots, the agreement failed by a mere seven votes.
And a disappointing day for rescuers in London. A bottlenose whale that grabbed international attention after wandering into the Thames River has died. The wayward whale was being ferried aboard a barge back out to open sea. It died of convulsions following the prolonged stress it suffered being lost.
And a different family is still waiting for word of their loved one. It's been two weeks since Jill Carroll was kidnapped in Iraq, and today there were new efforts to free the U.S. journalist.
CNN's Michael Holmes in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is now four days since the tape of Jill Carroll was aired on the Al-Jazeera television network, more than two week since she was kidnapped after trying to get an interview with a senior Sunni politician. Today no word on Jill Carroll's fate, but we are told there has been plenty of activity in Baghdad with talks between various groups going, religious and political. Also, more calls for Jill Carroll to be released.
The latest from the Council on American-Islamic Relations. A delegation specifically flying here to Baghdad. A spokesman saying, "Releasing Carroll would show to the world that Muslims are a caring people."
Now, the Iraqi Justice Ministry is reiterating its position that the release of six Iraqi women held by the U.S. on suspicion of insurgent- related activity should go ahead. Now, the U.S. says it is going through normal procedures related to processing those women's cases, but nothing is going to be done as a result of the kidnappers' demands that all Iraqi women prisoners held by the U.S. be freed.
Michael Holmes, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Unfortunately, there is more bloodshed in Iraq. The U.S. military today said two U.S. Marines were killed in combat west of Baghdad Friday.
Meanwhile, a car bomb killed two Iraqi police officers in Baquba today.
Earlier, two Iraqi army officers were shot dead in Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown. Two people were wounded.
And in Baghdad, police say a car bomb near a market killed a civilian and wounded five others.
Now the American Army officer accused of suffocating an Iraqi general in 2003 could soon know his fate. Closing arguments took place today in Colorado in the court-martial of Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer. The Iraqi officer was being interrogated when he died. A military medical examiner says he had been placed head first into a sleeping bag, bound with an electrical cord and sat on by Welshofer.
Now, prosecutors say commanders had not approved of that interrogation technique.
And the latest audiotape from Osama bin Laden is a strong reminder that the world's most wanted terrorist still seems to be alive and well. So why is it so hard to find him?
Find out straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Incase you're just joining us, I want to update you on the Aracoma Mine disaster. Unfortunately, the two miners were found, Don Bragg and Ellery Hatfield, but they were not alive. Their bodies found about an hour or so ago as the governor of the state and the congressional delegation are promising to push new legislation that would try to ensure the safety of these miners and a quicker response.
In the meantime, Osama bin Laden is resurfacing. The al Qaeda leader warns of another attack on the United States, but he also offers a truce.
CNN Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre looks at why it's been so difficult to capture bin Laden.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): There were some people in the U.S. military who thought maybe Osama bin Laden might have died given that he hadn't been heard from in over a year. At the very least, senior Pentagon officials thought he was lying so low that he was reduced to being a symbolic leader of the al Qaeda terrorist network.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I suspect that in any event, if he's alive and functioning, that he's probably spending a major fraction of his time trying to avoid being caught.
MCINTYRE: The new audiotape thought to have been recorded in December provides few clues to bin Laden Laden's condition or location. The U.S. thinks the al Qaeda leader is still holed up in a lawless tribal region of Pakistan, avoiding too many trips into neighboring Afghanistan, where U.S. Special Forces commandos are waiting to take him dead or alive. But with no hard intelligence about his whereabouts, experts say the truth is bin Laden could be almost anywhere.
LT. COL. STEPHEN DONEHOO, U.S. ARMY (RET.): He certainly could be in Iran. He could be in parts of Baghdad that we wouldn't know about. I mean, there are places where he could be completely hidden. It took us a long time to find -- to find Saddam Hussein. It takes a long time too find these people.
MCINTYRE (on camera): The manhunt for Osama bin Laden is not as much a physical search as it is an intelligence-gathering exercise. And ultimately, the U.S. believes it will get bin Laden the same way it got Saddam Hussein, when someone who knows where he is gives him up.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, bin Laden's latest message is proving to be a boon to an obscure leftist historian whose book the terrorist plugged even as he vowed to attack the nation again. Bin Laden encouraged Americans to read "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower."
Now, since Thursday, the little known book by historian William Blum has shot up the index of amazon.com. It's now at number 18.
Wolf Blitzer invited the author, and now the newspapers are calling. He says the -- or at least he tellless "The Washington Post" it's almost as good as a thumbs-up from Oprah. Go figure.
All right. Much more to come on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans evacuees attended more meetings today to focus on the recovery efforts.
Meanwhile, New Orleans' mayor, Ray Nagin, is sounding a bit conright these days, admitting he made a mistake during his controversial King Day speech. Nagin spoke to CNN's Anderson Cooper last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR RAY NAGIN (D), NEW ORLEANS: I'm African-American, OK? Just to kind of put that out there.
It's part of our culture to talk about chocolate cities. You know, D.C. was the first chocolate city that ever came on the map, Newark, Detroit, New Orleans. So for me, the vernacular of saying "chocolate city" was not a big deal.
I have used that in speeches for three and a half years now. And I have even used it on Capitol Hill. So I didn't really think it was a big deal.
Where I crossed the line was bringing god into the whole, you know, discussion. And that's where I kind of zoned out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: All right. Much more news straight ahead in the next hour of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We are going to give you an update on the tragedy at the Aracoma Mine in Melville, West Virginia.
Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY, and I'm Carol Lin.
Straight ahead in this hour, tragedy strikes the West Virginia mining community yet again. We are going to have a live report on today's developments.
And a dramatic rescue in St. Louis. You may be surprised to find out who pulled a burning man to safety.
And a sad ending in the quest to save a lost whale in London.
But first, we want to bring you the latest news.
A student pilot and his flight instructor survived a small plane crash in Connecticut today. Their Cherokee Piper crashed near the Rhode Island state line this morning. One of the men had to be cut out of the wreckage. Both were taken to an area hospital.
And former president Gerald Ford remains in a California hospital a week after he was admitted. His office says he's responding to treatment for pneumonia.
And two U.S. Marines were killed today west of Baghdad. They were hit by a suicide car bomber. And it's finally safe enough for investigators to get inside the Sago Mine in West Virginia. A dozen miners died there three weeks ago in a deadly explosion. At the half-hour, an update on the accident's only survivor.
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