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Lou Dobbs Tonight
The Great Divide in the Senate Judiciary Committee; U.N. Paralysis; Canada Elects a Conservative; Bush Administration Defends Domestic Spying
Aired January 24, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, Supreme Court nominee Judge Samuel Alito has won an important victory in his fight for Senate confirmation. A sharply- divided Senate Judiciary Committee today voted to support Alito's confirmation. The full Senate could confirm Judge Alito as soon as Friday.
Democrats tonight are publicly keeping the option of a filibuster open, but they're privately admitting Judge Alito will be going to the Supreme Court.
Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a rate time that a Supreme Court nominee has made it out of the Judiciary Committee without getting one single vote from the other side of the aisle, a sign of just how nasty this battle has become.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice over): Judge Alito was approved on a party line vote...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Coburn.
SEN. TOM COBURN (R-OK), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Aye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Leahy.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Kennedy.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D-MA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: No.
HENRY: ... with the Judiciary Committee bitterly divided, mostly over the hot-button issue of abortion.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D-CA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I really believe the majority of people in America believe that a woman should have certain rights of privacy modified by the state, but certain rights of privacy. And if you know this person is not going to respect those rights, but holds to a different theory, then you have to stand up. SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: I fear a very bad precedent is being set today, a precedent that a unanimous minority will oppose a nominee on political grounds, not because the nominee is in any way unqualified.
HENRY: Republicans again harped on the nominee's wife growing emotional at the contentious confirmation hearing.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Perhaps the most enduring image of this -- of this hearing is this picture of Ms. Alito on the front of "National Journal," "Enough to Make You Cry."
HENRY: Democrats defended their aggressive questioning and charged Judge Alito was evasive.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: After we saw Harriet Miers, the president's counsel in the White House, go through the process of being removed because she couldn't meet the litmus test, after we understood the gravity and seriousness of this nomination, and after we saw the writings of Judge Alito, is it any wonder that we had questions that we wanted answered?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: We're expecting a party line vote on the Senate floor as well. A far cry from last year, when Chief Justice John Roberts got 22 Senate Democrats to vote for him. The difference now is Democrats have made the calculation that they can't stop Alito with a filibuster. The best they can to try to tar him as a polarizing figure.
You have the election coming up in November. Democrats want to go to the voters with a wedge issue and say, if you want to stop President Bush from putting more conservatives on the high court, put Democrats in charge of the Senate -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the vote could come as soon in the full Senate?
HENRY: As soon as later this week, or it could carry over until next Monday or Tuesday -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.
Thank you, Ed.
Joining me now, our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffery, does it really matter one wit that this was a straight line party vote in the Judiciary Committee?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: You know what they call justices who are confirmed by a narrow margin? "Mr. Justice." It doesn't matter at all. No one will remember, and it doesn't affect the...
DOBBS: What has happened between September and January? Judge Roberts confirmed. As Ed Henry just reported, 22 votes against, obviously a bipartisan vote. This strictly party line.
What's happened?
TOOBIN: A couple things. I think the fact that Chief Justice Rehnquist was so conservative, the replacement of another conservative didn't mobilize Democrats the way this seat, Sandra Day O'Connor's seat, did.
Also, the president is perceived as much more vulnerable now. He's less popular than he was in September.
And finally, I think chief -- soon to be Justice Alito, has a more conservative record. His memo from 1985 suggests a commitment to conservative causes that is stronger than John Roberts.
DOBBS: And with this confirmation process going to the full floor, where again it appears it will be by strictly a party vote, party lines, what will be the implication? Does it make any difference at all that we've seen partisan divides center on Judge Alito? Does it matter in terms of the movement now in the court?
TOOBIN: The day of unanimous Supreme Court confirmations I think is over. Breyer was confirmed unanimously, Ginsburg, the Clinton appointees.
It is a much more polarized place. And I don't think it'll affect the justices, but it just reflects the times in which we live in.
DOBBS: Does it perhaps say far more about the senators' voting than it does about the nominee being confirmed?
TOOBIN: This is all about the folks back home, absolutely.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.
President Bush today declared the United States and Pakistan are working closely together to defeat radical Islamist terrorism. President Bush made his comments at a White House meeting with the Pakistani prime minister, where he also announced he will visit Pakistan and India in March. The president will be there to shore up relations with two of this country's most important partners in the global war on radical Islamist terrorists.
It appears the United States and Europe have lost a partner in their efforts to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear power. The Kremlin today declared the issue must be handled by the International Atomic Energy Agency alone. That statement reflects Russia's reluctance to send the issue to the U.N. Security Council and its outright opposition to international sanctions against Iran.
As the European Union and the United States demand the United Nations resolve the uranium nuclear confrontation, the United Nations, itself, appears marginalized by both incompetence and corruption. There is the looming danger that Iran's nuclear defiance may be simply too large an issue for the scandal-plagued United Nations to handle. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A nuclear Iran threatens the world, but the one organization that can address the threat seems paralyzed.
JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: If the Security Council can't deal with something like the Iranian nuclear weapons program, then -- then it's hard to imagine what circumstances the charter contemplated to council would be involved in.
PILGRIM: The U.N. in recent years has been criticized as a tower of corruption, kickbacks and cronyism.
NILE GARDINER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Unless we are to see a fundamental wholesale reform of this organization, as well as a sea change in the leadership of the United Nations, this organization is doomed to failure.
PILGRIM: For example, a few weeks ago, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan was openly hostile to a reporter when he questioned Kofi Annan's son using his father's connections to get a diplomatic discount on a new Mercedes.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: You are an embarrassment to your colleagues and to your profession. Please stop misbehaving and please let's move on to a more serious -- no, move on to a more serious...
PILGRIM: Now Annan's attorneys admit it happened.
This week, an internal U.N. audit finds tens of millions of dollars of graft in U.N. purchasing operations, 200 cases of fraud. Eight U.N. employees were put on leave pending a criminal investigation. The oil-for-food program implicated some 2,000 companies. Human rights abusers, Libya and Sudan, serving on the Human Rights Commission.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When this great institution's members states choose notorious abusers of human rights to sit on the U.N. Human Rights Commission, they discredit a noble effort and undermine the credibility of the whole organization.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The new charges of fraud in the U.N. released this week were possible because U.N. employees came forward. There are now some whistle-blower protections in place. And that makes it easier for U.N. employees to come forward and challenge the U.N. culture of corruption as it's called.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you.
Kitty pilgrim. Tonight, for the first time in more than 12 years, our friends to the north have a conservative leader. The conservative party and its leader, Stephen Harper, defeated liberal leader Paul Martin, whose government faced charges of bribery and cronyism.
Paul Martin pushed anti-Americanism to the center of his election campaign. It did not work for Canadians.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): In recent years, as the United States has turned right, the rest of the hemisphere has been trending left. Venezuela and now Bolivia have elected governments unfriendly toward the U.S Brazil, Argentina and now Chile have elected moderately left-wing governments.
This week, one government defied the trend. On Monday, Canadians threw out Paul Martin's liberal government and put Stephen Harper's conservative party in power. A liberal ad warned Canadians what would happen if Harper won.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Harper victory will put a smile on George W. Bush's face. Well, at least someone will be happy, eh?
SCHNEIDER: Question: Did Harper win because or in spite of the fact that he is pro-American and friendly to Bush?
DAN DUNSKY, CANADIAN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it was definitely in spite of that.
SCHNEIDER: For two reasons.
DUNSKY: Harper did not run on an explicitly pro-United States platform.
SCHNEIDER: And second, it was mostly an anti-incumbent vote.
DUNSKY: The reason for the conservative victory had as much to do with liberal corruption and liberal scandals as it did with the conservative party and their specifics in their platform.
SCHNEIDER: The winner acknowledged as much.
STEPHEN HARPER, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER-ELECT: Our great country has voted for change. And Canadians have asked our party to take the lead in delivering that change.
SCHNEIDER: But not too much change. The conservatives will be a minority government. Don't look for radical changes in the U.S.- Canadian relationship.
DUNSKY: There will not be as much need for this government to play to that reflects of anti-Americanism that so often seemed to feature in the last government. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Here's something else that may have contributed to Mr. Harper's victory. He's writing a book about the history of hockey. On his campaign plane, Reuters reports, he won a hockey trivia quiz, scoring 14 out of 15 answers. Mr. Harper is challenging the answer to number 15 -- Lou.
DOBBS: With that kind of impressive testing at almost any subject, you think he ought to be elected.
SCHNEIDER: Sorry, I have no audio.
DOBBS: The fact -- can you hear me? Can you hear me.
SCHNEIDER: My audio is not coming through. Sorry.
DOBBS: Well, I was going to say something extraordinary insightful and ask you a penetrating question, but we're going to leave that for another evening.
Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
Communist Cuba is getting a dose of freedom of expression, and its leader doesn't apparently like that. President Fidel Castro today led hundreds of thousands of Cubans in an anti-American protest.
Why an anti-American protest in the Cuban capital? Because the U.S. mission there put up a huge news ticker on its building, and among the stories carried today, those free elections in Canada and the results. As Castro prepared to address the crowd, the ticker carried news of the conservative party's victory in the Canadian elections.
Still ahead, an arms standoff in Texas between U.S. law enforcement and the Mexican army on the U.S. side of the border. We'll have the report.
And then, how much easier could it be for illegal aliens? A special report of the new illegal alien border map.
And states try to succeed where the federal government has failed. How states are now rushing to pass tough legislation against illegal immigration.
And god and politics. Churches under fire for taking strong political stands. Our special report coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, law enforcement officials near El Paso, Texas, say they are virtually certainty the Mexican military yesterday tried to cross the U.S. border and smuggle drugs into this country. The incident occurred in Hunt Smith (ph) County, Texas, about 50 miles east of El Paso on the Rio Grand River. Law enforcement officials say three SUVs and one Mexican military Humvee crossed the Rio Grande into the United States. The SUVs then drove about 12 miles into the United States before sheriff's deputies and highway patrol officers caught up with them and forced them to turn back.
After an armed standoff with nearly 30 sheriff's deputies and border patrol agents, two of the SUVs returned to the Mexican side of the river. A third SUV was recovered by U.S. deputies with more than 1,400 pounds of marijuana inside.
Hunt Smith (ph) County sheriff Arvin West (ph) tells this broadcast tonight he is almost 100 percent certain that Mexican soldiers were involved in the illegal operation. And he says there is no question that these Mexican troops were on the U.S. side of the border. Sheriff West (ph) also says the two SUVs that escaped were loaded with drugs.
The U.S. Customs and Border Protection Department will only say, "Suspects were dressed in military-style uniforms and using military- style equipment." And it goes on to say, "The incident remains under investigation."
The Mexican military denies any of its troops were involved.
Senator Jon Kyl of Arizona tonight demanding the United States launch an official investigation into the shocking border incursions by the Mexican military, and Governor Rick Perry of Texas is also demanding an investigation into the incident.
Our nation's outnumbered border patrol agents have a new concern tonight. Mexico's about to hand out American-made maps to its citizens showing the easiest way for them to cross into the United States illegally.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): An Arizona-based group funded and run mostly by churches is now mapping the way for illegal aliens trying to sneak into the United States, literally. Humane Borders is distributing these high-resolution maps to potential migrants in Mexico, showing how to safely cross the border illegally. The maps help aliens locate water stations, border patrol rescue beacons, roads and railroad tracks, and they show how far aliens can expect to walk in one, two, or three days.
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: This is not humane. It is insane.
Just stop and think about this analogy. Since it is aiding and abetting and illegal action, why stop there? I mean, if you really want to redistribute income, why not get together a group of prospective bank robbers and give them the combinations to the safes of major banks in the United States? WIAN: The maps also show where illegal aliens have died trying to cross the Arizona desert and contain warnings to potential border crossers saying, "Don't go. There's not enough water and it's not worth it."
REV. ROBIN HOOVER, PRESIDENT, HUMANE BORDERS: Our experience is that many, many of the migrants do not understand what they're about to experience when they cross the border. We believe that the most basic level of ethics is informed consent.
WIAN: There was no mention of the informed consent of U.S. immigration authorities. Humane Borders announced its plan in Mexico City. The Mexican government's human rights arm has agreed to print and distribute the maps in Mexico.
They're also being endorsed by Pima County, Arizona, which is already helping pay for Humane Borders' water stations. County officials say that's less expensive than dealing with the dead bodies of illegal aliens.
Even Arizona Republican congressman Jim Kolbe supports the maps, though only as a way to prevent deaths.
Opponents say they may have the opposite effect by giving illegal aliens false hope about avoiding the dangers of crossing the Arizona desert.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: We called Customs and Border Protection to ask if it considers the distribution of the maps a crime. A spokesman says the agency is researching the matter -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Casey Wian. Appreciate it.
State governments can play, of course, an important part in battling our nation's illegal alien crisis. Already this year, almost 30 states have introduced legislation to combat our border emergency. States are being forced to take action where the federal government has failed to even take notice, let alone action.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): From New Hampshire to South Carolina, Virginia to Arizona, since January 1 this year, at least 28 states have introduced 71 new bills. Another 73 bills written last year remain on the agenda. Legislation on everything from employer sanctions for hiring illegal aliens, to criminalizing trafficking of illegals, to mandatory immigration checks during every street arrest.
In Indiana, one bill restricts public assistance, only allowing it for legal immigrants. It requires schools to verify legal status of all students, prohibits the state from issuing ID or driver's licenses, and makes document forgery a Class C felony.
It's a trend that began last year. The National Conference of State Legislatures says in 2005, legislatures considered 300 bills and approved 36. A figure expected to be surpassed this year.
In New Hampshire, this year, there are more than eight bills. One targeting coyotes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Even though this is the kind -- this is a state, New Hampshire, you -- you would not expect to have coyote a problem there, but they say it is.
Where there is most promise for state legislation with real teeth, however, employer sanctions. The National Conference of State Legislatures says there's a lot of interest in states now to hold employers accountable for knowingly hiring illegal workers.
We'll likely see a lot more legislation along those lines later this year. It's only January.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And it's an expression with the frustration with a do-nothing government, a Congress and a White House that have all but ignored the issue, and a federal government that is not enforcing the law.
We want to apologize as well to our viewers for those audio problems in the report.
And the focus on illegal employers hiring illegal aliens, it's the proper focus.
ROMANS: You'll see a lot of movement on that, I think, this year. And apparently, a lot of states think there are ways they can write legislation to really, really have an impact on this, to hold employers accountable.
DOBBS: Imagine that. Christine, thank you. Christine Romans.
We'd like to know what you think in our poll tonight. The question is: Do you believe that we can solve the illegal immigration crisis in this country without first securing our borders?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up later in the broadcast.
Still ahead, fierce Santa Ana winds are gusting over 70 miles an hour, and a growing wildfire emergency in southern California. We'll have the story.
And god and politics. Churches fighting to keep their tax-exempt status after preaching politics. Who's right? We'll find out. A special report coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Tonight, nearly all of southern California is under a red flag alert, meaning high winds and dry conditions could spark wildfires at any time. One fire in San Bernardino County has already burned 400 acres. It's being fuel by winds of up to 30 miles an hour. Authorities telling people in 500 homes to leave.
Today is the third day of powerful Santa Ana winds which are fanning fires and knocking out power to thousands of people. The highest wind gusts have been reported in the mountains at 70 miles an hour.
A rare snowstorm in Hawaii forcing officials there to close the road to the state's highest mountain, the Mauna Kea volcano on the big island. It is the first time the road has been closed this winter. Tourists and even park rangers evacuated the summit. There were also snow flurries on the nearby island of Maui.
In Europe, more than 150 people have been killed by freezing weather that has swept across much of the continent. At least half of those deaths have been in Russia, where many homeless people have been freezing to death. Temperatures have fallen to as low as minus 33 degrees Fahrenheit.
People in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia have also been struggling to clear away snow after huge storms. The problems have been worsened by a shortage of heating fuel after terrorists sabotaged a natural gas pipeline.
Even Greece has not escaped the freezing weather. Snow has been falling on the Acropolis in Athens. And schools and mass transit systems have been closed and disrupted.
Coming up next here, the church taking a stand against top border protection legislation. How far can the church go in pushing controversial political positions? We'll have that special report.
And today's all-too-predictable vote on Judge Samuel Alito in the Senate Judiciary Committee. I'll be joined by Judiciary Committee member Senator Orrin Hatch.
And how years of poor management and failed U.S. trade policies have led to devastating job losses in the automobile industry.
That special report coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, god and politics. There is a growing debate in this country about how far religious institutions and organizations can go in pushing political causes.
Several churches around the country are now under fire by the Internal Revenue Service. In some cases, they may have gone too far in urging their worshipers and members to embrace their political viewpoints.
Delia Gallagher reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The IRS is reviewing the tax exempt status of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, California, because of what a retired rector said in a sermon on election eve.
ROBERT LONG, ALL SAINTS CHURCH: It was an issue-oriented sermon on matters of people on the margin in society, on matters of peacemaking and the like.
GALLAGHER: The sermon was titled "If Jesus Debated Senator Kerry and President Bush." The IRS wants to know if the sermon broke the law.
Text laws say churches and religious organizations "must not participate or intervene in any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office."
JARED LELAND, THE BECKET FUND: Where is the line draw between addressing the moral and political issues of the day, versus addressing the political candidacy or engaging in a political campaign activity? That is a very fuzzy line.
GALLAGHER: Adding to the confusion a group of religious leaders in Ohio filed a complaint with the IRS, charging that World Harvest Church is unlawfully supporting Republican Kenneth Blackwell in his bid for governor. Not with outright endorsements, but by continually hosting him at church-sponsored events. World Harvest Church says it invites many elected leaders to its functions and sees this as an issue of free speech.
Congressman Adam Schiff is also concerned about free speech and is calling for an investigation into how many churches the IRS has investigated and why.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: We need it make sure that the IRS is not being aggressive against churches and places of worship because the rector or the priest over the clergyman has expressed a view that's contrary to something the president believes in or I believe in.
GALLAGHER: The IRS has told Schiff it doesn't know the political affiliation of those it investigates, but says that questionable political activity by tax exempt organizations rose sharply during the past presidential election and that the majority of those in question were churches.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GALLAGHER: The IRS also says it is relatively rare that a violation of this tax code law leads to a revocation of an organization's tax exempt status, and that advisory letters are often issued instead. DOBBS: Advisory letters and the focus that we have in our courts, in our political system, on the separation of church and state on the part of the government, it reaches to institutions, the organizations themselves. Do you think we're seeing more emphasis on what these individual church and religious organizations are doing and likely to see more of it?
GALLAGHER: The IRS has said that there are more investigations into what is happening in the churches, that certainly they have noticed an increase or at least are doing more investigations into what churches are doing in the past few years.
DOBBS: It is troubling to see the number of issues that religious organizations are getting involved in. And to look at a time particularly when the war against radical Islamist terrorism. And the issue of secularism.
GALLAGHER: Well, you may find that troubling, but I think that there are many people who would say...
DOBBS: I find it extraordinarily troubling.
GALLAGHER: ... that's that a good thing that they get involved, especially in times when we're discussing Islamic fundamentalism, we're discussing fundamentalism in general. Because it's perhaps those very organizations who are the most able to speak to those issues, because they themselves are religious organizations. So I think that they feel that not only do they have the right to do it, but they have a duty to speak out.
DOBBS: Yes. I think it leaves a severe burden on us to figure this out. Because the issue of religious organizations and churches advancing political agendas for their own purposes then becomes a separate issue and a critically important one which we're going to continue to examine diligently on this broadcast, I can assure you, and with your good help,
Thank you very much, Delia Gallagher.
It was an all-too predictable vote today in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Committee members voted 10-8 to send Judge Samuel Alito's Supreme Court nomination to the full Senate. Every Republican on the committee voted in favor of Alito, every Democrat voted against Alito.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The United States Senate should never be allowed to become a rubber stamp. We should be the conscience of the nation. But neither should the Supreme Court be allowed to be a rubber stamp for any president, Democratic or Republican.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D-MA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The record demonstrates that we cannot count on Judge Alito to blow the whistle when the president is out of bounds. He is a long-standing advocate for expanding executive power, even at the expense of core individual liberties.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D-CA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: If one is pro-choice in this day in age, in this structure, one can't vote for Judge Alito.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, joining me now with his thoughts on what has been a polarizing nomination process to this point and shows no signs of abating when the full Senate votes, Republican Senate Judiciary Committee member, Senator Orrin Hatch, who participated, of course, in today's Judiciary Committee vote.
Senator, good to have you with us. I know you're distressed by the straight line party vote. Why, in your judgment, has this occurred?
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (D-UT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, I am really distressed by it, because the first vote in history where it's been a straight party line vote with regard to a Supreme Court nominee. And I really believe it all comes down to abortion. Now, they'll use other issues, but, you know, this man has participated in over 5,000 cases. He's written over 350 opinions.
You can cherry-pick whatever you want to from the left to the right in his opinions, but virtually everybody who knows him, including seven of his colleagues on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, including those who are liberal, those who are Democrat, those who are conservative, say he is one of the best judges in the country. And the American Bar Association gives him its highest rating and yet Democrats voted against him and it was all over Roe versus Wade.
DOBBS: Do you see any way, Senator Hatch, to remove Roe v. Wade as the litmus test, the fulcrum point in this?
HATCH: Well, it's become a major, major litmus test by Democrats. We've never had litmus test. I'll say it with particularity, we knew, as Republicans, that Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer, both pro-choice, they were both social liberals. But Ruth Bader Ginsburg on a 93-63 vote, Stephen Breyer got an 87-9 vote.
Republicans voted for them because they were qualified. And Bill Clinton was the president. But Democrats have taken a different tack here and I think it's very detrimental and harmful to the nation.
DOBBS: I talked with -- here last night -- Judge Charles Pickering, who has written an important book, I think, "Supreme Chaos," on how to address the issues of this broken confirmation process. But I wanted to read to you one thing he said to me that I thought was very important in that interview last night.
He said, "But if the courts quit deciding hot-button social issues like abortion and like the Pledge of Allegiance and the definition of marriage and these pornography cases -- these are matters that should be decide by state legislators, by our senators and Congressmen, but instead they've been deferred to the Judiciary through the concept of a living constitution. What are we going to do to move in that direction, because it seems both salient and profound and correct for us to start looking at that the important issue."
HATCH: Well, Judge Pickering was absolutely right. I mean, the fact of the matter is that if you look at Roe versus Wade just as an illustration, that has caused such a furor throughout this country because it's been -- it was decided by seven unelected justices on the United States Supreme Court.
Had that been up to the elected representatives of the people and the respective state and federal legislatures, yes, we would have a number of states who would have had abortion on demand. We'd have some that would have moderate on abortion. We've had some that wouldn't have allowed abortion except to save the life of the mother. But at least the people would have made that decision and we wouldn't have this tremendous dislocation that we're currently facing.
And I have to say, I just -- this is not a -- the Republicans, if you look at the way they treated Democratic nominees to the Supreme Court, we've been fair to them. But the Democrats have not been fair. And they -- and it all comes down to abortion. And you know why? Because these outside liberal groups that are well-heeled from Hollywood and from a lot of liberal sources have millions of dollars to spend. They hold their feet to the fire and demand that they vote against anybody who might possibly rule against Roe versus Wade.
DOBBS: Well, Senator, I think we also have to point out the -- in interest of accuracy, there's some also wild-eyed conservative fundraising going on as well and everybody holding up the boogie man of abortion. It is a spectacularly unimpressive performance by the extreme left, the extreme right and the fundraising activists that support both Republicans and Democrats. I say a pox on both their houses, Senator, is what I'm saying.
HATCH: Well, I do, too, when it comes to that. But let me tell you, when I was chairman of the committee -- and I think Senator Specter has done the same -- when these right-wing groups came in and started demanding to vote the way they wanted us to, I told them to get out of the office. Because we're not going to be led by outside groups. We're elected to exercise our own principles and our own ideas.
DOBBS: Well, I hope a lot your colleagues are listening to you. Senator Hatch, we thank you for being with us tonight.
HATCH: Thank you, nice to be with you.
DOBBS: Still ahead, the Bush administration's aggressive defense of warrantless wiretapping. The attorney general, the latest to call the program vital for national security. I'll be joined by the former secretary of state, Lawrence Eagleburger, to discuss that issue and a host of others.
And then American labor unions at odds over proposed guest worker programs for illegal aliens. The AFL-CIO say it will devastate American workers. Other unions want to join in on that devastation. We'll find out next. A top official from the group joining us. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Attorney General Alberto Gonzales today stepped up the Bush administration's defense of the government's warrantless wiretap program. Gonzales insisted the surveillance program falls within the president's Constitutional authority and powers granted by Congress after September 11th.
Yesterday, President Bush also defended the program. Tomorrow, President Bush visits the National Security Agency which carries out, of course, those wiretaps.
Joining me now it talk about the surveillance program, the warrantless wiretaps and, of course, other critical geopolitical issues facing this country, our former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger who served in the administration of President H.W. Bush. Mr. Secretary, good to have you with us.
LAWRENCE EAGLEBURGER, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: Good to be here.
DOBBS: It is now a terrorist surveillance program. It is artful language. Is it appropriate?
EAGLEBURGER: Well, you know, I guess I'm going to say yes. But let me qualify it a little bit. If the Supreme Court were to get this case now and they said, yes, this is within the powers of the president, it would be legal. If they said no, it would be illegal.
But what is also interesting to remember is that every president since the FISA Act was first passed in Carter's term, every president since then has said that he will follow the law, but he's not bound by it. Now that's Democrats and Republicans.
So I think we've got ourselves -- a game is being played on the legalities of this thing. And I'm not sure where that comes out. I will say this. I think in today's world, unpleasant as it may be, these kinds of wiretaps are probably a sensible thing to do.
DOBBS: It is, I think, when anyone is honest about it, something we would be energetically critical of the Bush administration, were it not doing everything it could to survey perspective terrorists. But at the same time, we have a system in place. We have a law in place, you referred to it.
And that is of course FISA and the FISA courts and the oversight that come with it. Is this also -- in addition to being warrantless wiretapping, is it also a warrantless avoidance of an attempted bipartisanship, real leadership, bringing in the Democratic leadership and deal with the issue?
EAGLEBURGER: Well, first of all, please remember that at least the administration says it has talked with the Congress about this, at least the Senate. But, again, I have to come back to say we are in a new world. This is the -- terrorist issue a tough one it deal with.
I'm not happy about wiretaps. On the other hand, and you've said it. I think we have to expect the president to do everything he can, obviously, within some limits, to protect us.
And it seems to me that since these are wiretaps coming outside -- from outside the United States into the United States, it's not that you're not necessarily wiretapping every American citizen. But what it is saying is if there's a call coming from outside and it looks like it makes sense to tap it, I think it probably should be done.
I would say one other thing, though, if I may, which is the fact that this is now all out and in the public domain anyway, I think reduces the whole ability of these wiretaps to do us much good because everybody on the other side knows they're there.
DOBBS: Let's turn to another issue that is now looming large and perhaps dangerously near. And that is, proliferation, Iran's prospective ...
EAGLEBURGER: Oh boy.
DOBBS: ... entry as a nuclear power. The president, the vice president, this administration saying it will not tolerate Iran as a nuclear power. Russia withdrawing from what appeared to be, at least in the early stages, a partnership on the issue. Where are we headed?
EAGLEBURGER: Mr. Dobbs, you cannot raise a more important issue for the American people, I don't think. I think the future of this country and of the western world is going to depend very much on whether we -- and I don't mean just the U.S., I mean a combination of sensible countries -- can at some point come together and say, this proliferation issue must be managed and we must manage it collectively.
And if that requires the use of force, we'll have to do it. I must tell you, I don't think there's any immediate answer for Iran or for North Korea, because we don't have any collective support for doing anything about it.
And I must tell you again, I think, unless something is done fairly soon, we are, within the next generation, going to really, really regret the fact that we didn't act. I tell you, in a way with this issue, it's almost like Adolph Hitler in 1936. If we don't wake up, we're going to be in terrible trouble.
DOBBS: With that warning and those sobering words, we have to say we're out of time. But we thank you very much, Lawrence Eagleburger.
EAGLEBURGER: Thank you, sir. That was fun.
DOBBS: Coming up at top of the hour here, THE SITUATION ROOM with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us what you're doing.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Lou.
Just ahead, he spent almost a quarter century in prison before being exonerated by DNA. Now he's free to talk. He'll talk about his ordeal tonight. That's coming up live here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And Kobe Bryant's back in the spotlight, playing like a champ on the court. But is he doing as well in the court of public opinion? We have that story.
And we're also live in New Orleans where people are reacting to reports the White House knew the levees were at risk. We have some compelling new video as well of what it was like the day Hurricane Katrina hit. All of that, Lou, coming up at the top the hour.
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf. And a reminder to vote in our poll tonight. Do you believe that we can solve the illegal immigration crisis in this country without first securing our borders? Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up in just a matter of moments.
Still ahead, the AFL-CIO taking on two other large labor unions supporting a guest worker program for millions of illegal aliens. I'll be talking with a top official with the AFL-CIO here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported to you of a new and unlikely coalition now fighting to defeat border security legislation and to promote a guest worker program for millions of illegal aliens.
This coalition is made up, believe it or not, of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the country's largest business lobbying group, religious groups and two labor unions. That's right, two labor unions, The Service Employers International and the Laborers International. Another labor organization, the largest, the AFL-CIO, is blasting this coalition and its support of the guest worker program.
I'm joined now by Associate General Council Ana Avendano from Washington. Anna, good to have you with us.
We want to point out to you and all of our viewers that we invited officials from Chamber of Commerce, the Service Employees Union, and the LIU to join us, but they declined. We're hopeful that the head of the LIU will be here Friday.
Ana, let's turn to -- are you surprised that labor unions will be joining with the Chamber of Commerce in this alliance?
ANA AVENDANO, ASSOC. GEN. COUNSEL, AFL-CIO: Well, Lou, I think it's really important for your audience to understand what the ultimate issue here is, and it's the massive expansion of guest worker programs.
The AFL-CIO represents 10 million working people in the United States. Men and women in all walks of life and throughout the economy. Now, all of the AFL-CIO unions, 62 of them, are opposed to the expansion of these guest worker programs.
One the unions you mentioned, Liuna (ph), is part of the AFL-CIO and has expressed strong reservations about guest worker programs.
DOBBS: Well, with this alliance, what are you going to be able to do here? What do you intend to do? Because the issues -- first, let's start with where do you stand on the Sensenbrenner bill itself? Which will be voted on the Senate come next month.
AVENDANO: Lou, the issue here again is that we're dealing with a broken system. A system that has led it a two-tier work place that is destroying working conditions for all workers in the United States, both U.S.-born and foreign alike. We have to fix this crisis.
DOBBS: When you say U.S.-born and foreign-born, do you mean illegal immigrants?
AVENDANO: I mean that anything that divides workplace into different tiers of workers is helping any working person in the United States. Now there are incentives that employers have right now to recruit and hire --
DOBBS: I'm sorry, we haven't got a lot of time. I have to ask you for some straightforward answers here. Where does AFL-CIO stand on the Sensenbrenner bill?
AVENDANO: It's not a comprehensive solution. You said recently we can't do this ad hoc and take this -- we have to look at whole thing and it doesn't do that.
DOBBS: Okay. And what does?
AVENDANO: Well, legalization of legalization program, addressing the guest worker issue and most importantly, making sure that working standards are protected in any legislation. None of the bills currently out there do that. That is our main concern.
DOBBS: Okay, this is a concern. One that's understandable. But your position, if I may say, is highly ambiguous in terms of a guest worker program and tiers of workers and native-born and foreign-born. I don't see personally that that makes any sense at all. It seems to me like any organization that represents labor should be focused on improving the lots of our lawful citizens, whether they're foreign born or not. I mean, who cares?
AVENDANO: Exactly, Lou. You're absolutely right. Our main concern is for working people's interests. Our main concern is protecting the standards in the workplace, to make sure that people are paid for the work that they do, so that employers are able to exploit one class of workers and pit that class of workers against another.
That's exactly what we're trying to do here. The only way to do that is to fix the broken system comprehensively.
DOBBS: I just don't see many -- I haven't seen many instances of anything happen comprehensively in Washington and sometimes incrementalism is a good to think about it because that because that seems to be what Washington is committed to. Although, I personally agree with you, I'd like to see the whole thing solved at once, just haven't seen it happen.
Ana, we've got to run.
We appreciate you for being here.
AVENDANO: Thank you, Lou.
Still ahead, we'll have the results of off of our poll. More of your thoughts and an extraordinary effort to help our troops severely wounded in battle. The Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Don Imus this morning brought to my attention what is an extremely worthy cause. It is the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund. It's raising $35 million to build a brand new medical rehabilitation facility for our most severely wounded servicemen and women returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Center for the Intrepid will be located in San Antonio, Texas near the Brooke Army Medical Center and it will offer what they're calling state of the world facilities and technology to help our men and women who have been devastatingly injured in the line of duty. This foundation has turned down government money to build the Center for the Intrepid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL WHITE, INTREPID FALLEN HEROES FUND: The service member walks into this center and he or she knows that the American people built this in honor of them, and that the government actually is running it now, that they will really appreciate that America put this center together and responded to their urgent need for physical rehabilitation.
We want them to know that we love them, we care about them, and we respect them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund has raised $27 million. They need to raise another $8 million in the next six weeks to meet their goal. To contribute, please go to their Web site fallenheroes.org, again, fallenheroesfund.org. Or you can link to it through our site at loudobbs.com. And as always I would not bring any cause to your attention to which I have not contributed. And I have.
We thank you and we want to bring you the results of our poll: 97 percent of you say you don't believe that we can solve the illegal immigration crisis this country without first securing our borders. Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Dale in Oregon wrote to say, "Lou, you are right. There is an assault on the middle class. We've gone from single to double and now everyone in the family as 'wage earners' in the past 40 years. With trade agreements like GATT, WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA it should be obvious what to call the next one...SHAFTA!
And Liz in New Jersey. "I guess you could take all those big empty auto plants and turn them into Wal-Marts."
Sonny in Oregon. "The gentleman from Heritage said we are in a normal trend, making way for a new future, how much education do we need to work at Wal-Mart? Apparently, exactly the amount of education we are now getting."
And Keith in Texas saying, "It will be sooner than most people think that the USA will become a third world country, maybe, when it happens, the middle class in this country will finally wake up and tar and feather the SOB's running this country into the ground."
And Esther in Oregon. "The last presidents I trusted were Eisenhower and Kennedy. The last business person I trusted was ... um, give me a minute here. Gee, there must have been one. Nope, sorry, not a one."
Keep thinking, we love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose email is read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." If you want to sign up for our email newsletter, go to loudobbs.com.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow when among my guests will be Senator Byron Dorgan, talking about China's aggressive move to keep American carmakers out of their markets. You know, free trade.
Please be with us. For all of us here, thanks for joining us tonight. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?
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