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Andrea Yates Granted Bail
Aired February 1, 2006 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. The Texas trial of Andrea Yates rocked the legal world. Yates drowned all five of her children one by one by one by one by one. Tonight, a judge has granted bail -- that`s right, bail -- for killer mom Andrea Yates. Will she walk free?
And tonight, major developments out of Aruba, Aruban police just leaving Natalee Holloway`s Alabama hometown after finally interviewing those U.S. students, remember, the ones with her the night she disappeared. Is there a break in the case of Natalee Holloway?
And also tonight, help us identify a little girl about 2 years old.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Live to Aruba. Is there a new break in the Natalee Holloway case? Aruban investigators wrap up interviews here in the U.S. of Holloway`s friends with her on the same senior trip when Holloway vanished.
And breaking news in the case of an unidentified little girl, her body discovered in a Vegas dumpster. Tonight, police release a photo of the child.
First, breaking news. A Texas judge stuns child advocates across the country, granting bail to a five-time killer mom, Andrea Yates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE PARNHAM, ANDREA YATES`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What I`ve wanted for Andrea all along, you know, is for her to be in a mental hospital. So you know, I`m all in favor of, you know, her being given a bond so that she can at least be in a hospital awhile before trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Michael Shiloh, reporter with KFNC radio. Michael, where did the judge get the figure of $200,000? Doesn`t that mean, in common terms, 20,000 bucks up, and she has bail?
MICHAEL SHILOH, KFNC RADIO: She has bail, yes, through her lawyer. And her lawyer has said -- Mr. Parnham, as you just heard, has gotten the bail money together from family members or from ex-family members. He is not saying exactly where he got it.
GRACE: So you`re telling me they have gotten the money together?
SHILOH: They have gotten the money together, and my understanding is she will likely be released tomorrow. But she will -- here in Houston, at FM Newschannel 97.5 FM, we have gotten call after call, people horrified at the idea of her on the street. She is not going on the street. What she`s doing is going to a mental facility, as Mr. Parnham said, and will stay there until the trial March 20.
GRACE: Now, didn`t the judge say, I can`t force you to commit yourself? Didn`t the judge state that when granting the, basically, $20,000 bail?
SHILOH: Well, the judge did state that, although it`s, of course, a matter of contention as to whether the judge has any control over that whatsoever.
GRACE: But the judge who granted the bail said, Michael Shiloh, I can`t force you to commit yourself. And correct me if I`m wrong, but isn`t Hinckley, the guy who took a shot at our president, set for supervised visits out of a mental hospital? I mean, isn`t it true, Michael, that when you are cured in a mental hospital, you walk free?
SHILOH: Well, that may be the case, but in this case, she has found to be technically mentally defective under state law. Therefore, it was under the terms of the judge`s agreement to grant this bond that she go to a mental hospital.
GRACE: Well, OK. Question. The prosecutor in this case -- to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter -- has stated that they are very concerned that there are scenarios in which Andrea Yates will walk free. I mean, that`s what bond is all about. And tonight, a five-time killer, Andrea Yates, has been granted bond.
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well the prosecutors aren`t happy at all. I mean, they wanted a million dollars, so this is a shock to everybody, at least on that side of the courtroom. And what`s really interesting is that her ex-husband has even said, Listen, she`s not a threat. She was only a threat to her children and it was only at that time, and she`s not a threat to anyone anymore, and she`s on her medication and we have nothing to fear. But I have to tell you, it`s rather frightening.
GRACE: And the reality is, Pat Lalama, what is the recourse if she leaves the state hospital? It`s not lockdown. This judge is saying, I cannot force you to stay in the hospital.
LALAMA: All they can do is pick her up and put her back in, if she tried to leave on her own. But if she gets 20 grand to walk, that`s it. I mean...
GRACE: OK, pick her up...
LALAMA: ... he`s not forcing the issue. He`s not forcing the -- I mean, if she tries to, let`s say, escape from the mental hospital, or if she just walks out on her own.
GRACE: But if she`s not forced to be there...
GRACE: ... and she walks out...
GRACE: ... she`s walking free.
LALAMA: Right. I mean, the fact of the matter is, he set such a standard whereby it`s conceivable that she could be walking on the streets.
GRACE: Tonight, bond set by a judge in the case of Andrea Yates, found guilty by a Texas jury. That case has been reversed. She`s set for retrial. No plea deal on the horizon. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: What`s your name?
ANDREA YATES: Andrea Yates
911 OPERATOR: What`s the problem?
YATES: I just need them to come.
911 OPERATOR: Is your husband there?
911 OPERATOR: Well, what`s the problem?
YATES: Well, I need them to come.
911 OPERATOR: I need to know why we`re coming, ma`am. Is he there standing next to you?
911 OPERATOR: You need an ambulance?
YATES: No, I need a police officer. Yes, send an ambulance.
911 OPERATOR: What`s the problem? Is someone burglarizing your house? I mean, what is it? What kind of medical problem do you have, ma`am? Hello?
YATES: I just need a police officer.
911 OPERATOR: Are you there alone?
911 OPERATOR: Andrea Yates?
911 OPERATOR: Your husband there with you?
911 OPERATOR: OK. Why do you need the police, ma`am?
YATES: I just need them to be here.
911 OPERATOR: For what?
YATES: I just need them to come.
911 OPERATOR: You sure you`re alone?
YATES: No, my kids are here.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, joining us a very special guest, one of the best defense attorneys in this country. He represented Andrea Yates. Joining me now George Parnham. Welcome, George. Are you willing to take a plea deal to avoid another trial.
PARNHAM: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for having me and...
GRACE: Thank you.
PARNHAM: ... and asking me that question and -- I will do everything that I possibly can to get this matter resolved, short of picking a jury.
GRACE: I think that`s a trial lawyer`s way of saying, yes, you would enter a plea deal.
PARNHAM: In a minute, as long as the non-negotiable factors are properly addressed. And a non-negotiable factor is two-fold in Andrea`s situation, her physical security -- that is, to make certain that she is not harmed or does not harm herself, number 1 -- and number 2, mental health care treatment.
You remember that everybody testified in that case, to include the state`s witness, Dr. Dietz, that Andrea Yates on the 20th of June of 2001 was a Severely mentally ill individual. Andrea Yates needs to be where she will be tomorrow and that is...
GRACE: Well, George...
PARNHAM: ... in the Russ (ph) state mental hospital.
GRACE: George, I guess there are only 13 people in the world that disagree with you, the jury and myself, because once you`ve killed all five of your kids, who`s to say what you`ll do next? But you know what? I don`t want to reargue the case with you because you know it so much better than any of us, you`ll probably will beat me hands down.
But my question is, what are we going to do now? Now, isn`t it true, George -- everyone, with me, George Parnham, veteran defense attorney out of the Texas jurisdiction. Isn`t it true that she is receiving medical treatment in the form of drug therapy behind bars?
PARNHAM: She is on a daily regimen of very heavy anti-psychotic meds, anti-depressants.
PARNHAM: I think she is still on lithium. But this is not a state hospital. Where she was -- as of tomorrow, where she was and where she is tonight is a jail facility, make no mistake about it. She is shackled in chains when she comes to the attorney-client`s booth. Some people will say, Well, that`s the way it is, and I can understand that. The woman needs to have available to her the very best that the state system has to offer when it comes to...
GRACE: Well, George...
PARNHAM: ... indigent mental health...
GRACE: ... you`re telling me...
PARNHAM: ... people that...
GRACE: You`re telling me that she`s got...
GRACE: ... drug therapy to help her. What do you want her to have in this mental facility that she`s not getting right now?
PARNHAM: It`s a hospital environment. She will be treated with a certain degree of anonymity. She will be very secure. She will -- and it is a lockdown facility, by the way. That`s a misconception. She will not be free to leave that location. She will have available to her what indigent mentally ill individuals in our state need -- need to have. And Andrea`s absolutely no exception.
GRACE: Take a listen to what her then-husband -- he has since obtained a divorce -- Russell Yates had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSELL YATES, EX-HUSBAND: Well, as far as the verdict, you know, the jurors heard testimony from many, many defense witnesses, expert witnesses. I mean, you`re from (INAUDIBLE), I mean, you know, Baylor College of Medicine. We had people from there. We had the world`s expert in filicide. Everyone testified that she was legally insane.
The state had one expert, and he never came out and actually testified that she was sane. If I look at the greater weight of the evidence there, I mean, it lies with the defense.
I don`t know about looking into the case again, and I don`t know whether that`ll be on any other points of appeal. I know they didn`t focus on that very much during the trial. Andrea -- the two medications that she was on at the time of the tragedy are both on that list, you know, Remeron and Effexor (ph). And in fact, they`re given in combination to, you know - - together, they have an even stronger effect than -- than separately. So I definitely think the medication played a role.
And you know, someone asked me once, they said, Why June 20? Why did it happen on that day? And her medications were adjusted two days before. So I definitely believe that was a factor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: AP reports her then husband, Russell Yates, states now his wife, his former wife, has improved and would pose no problems if freed on bond. And Mr. Parnham, according to the AP, you stated that if your client, Andrea Yates, tries to leave the hospital, you would pick her up and return her to the sheriff. Now, if this is lockdown why did you say when she tries to leave, you`ll will pick her up and take her back to the jail?
PARNHAM: All right. The process that`s in place with voluntary commitments is that it is a lockdown facility. However, a person can -- in a hypothetical situation, can revoke the voluntary commitment. The statute provides...
GRACE: I know why you win so many cases!
PARNHAM: Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. The statute provides that the administrator of the hospital, Mr. Dubbs (ph), has 72 hours to hold that individual. I, as an officer of the court, have told the court under oath -- and I`ve got a relationship over many years with this particular judge, both as an ex-prosecutor and having tried cases in front of her -- that I would immediately contact the court within that 72- hour period, the bond would be revoked, the sheriff would come up and pick up Andrea Yates at the -- at the facility. So everything is in place...
GRACE: So it`s not really a lockdown.
PARNHAM: ... to make certain that Andrea Yates does not walk the streets of this community.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, who lost his daughter, president of Beyond Missing. Response?
MARC KLAAS, PRES., BEYOND MISSING: Well, yes. I`m sorry. Nancy, you know, I sit very uneasily with the fact that these five little children are dead, and so much consideration is being paid to Andrea. She must have the best of this. She must of have the best of that. She must have the best of the other. Even Rusty seems to be standing up for her, may even have offered some money for her bond. I`m you on this. It sounds like this is a situation that she could, hypothetically, walk away from. And certainly, we don`t want this woman back on the streets. If she was able to systematically drown five children, one after another at that time, goodness knows what she could do again!
GRACE: And to Midwin Charles, defense attorney joining us tonight. Midwin, the standard in Texas and throughout the country for insanity is, from the common law brought to us from Great Britain, whether you knew the difference between right and wrong at the time you committed the act. Midwin, would you argue the fact that, in a very small timeframe, from the time her husband left the home to the time her mother-in-law came there -- she waited until that time, locked all the doors and windows so no one could come in or leave the home. She systematically took her children, one by one, starting with the oldest, so as not to alarm the others, and struggled with each of them, drowning them one by one, all the way down to her baby girl, whose body was covered in bruises from trying to struggle back with her mother, trying to live, then lied them out systematically on the bed, called police and said, I`ve done a bad thing.
Now wouldn`t that suggest to you a certain secretiveness, knowledge of guilt?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. What it does is it suggests to me that this is someone who is mentally ill. And she has had a long history of being mentally ill and has been heavily medicated. So no, I don`t think that at all. This was not...
GRACE: So why grant bond?
CHARLES: Because she deserves the best care possible. As I mentioned before, mental illness is such an important thing that is often overlooked, and that`s why she was in this situation to begin with.
GRACE: You know what? A jury of 12 heard this case, and it seems to me tonight that they are the only ones that have the best interests of these children, justice for them, in their minds.
Very quickly to tonight`s "Case Alert." The eve of the funeral for three children allegedly poisoned and smothered by their mom, 43-year-old Eliza Mendez (ph), upset when her husband planned to seek a divorce.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I`ll be able to hug my children anymore and have that physical touch with them because for us immigrants, it is very difficult and hard, many times, to have everything in life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All three children will be buried in New York after tomorrow`s funeral in Arkansas. To contribute to the fund set up for this family, write Attention: Morales benefit, Post Office Box 980 De Queen, Arkansas, 71832.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSELL YATES: I was scared to death because of her tone. You know, her tone was so -- I mean, that`s something people don`t realize. Andrea didn`t say 10 words a day, you know, I mean, you know? And then all of a sudden, she`s speaking in these sentences to me, you know, You need to come home, you need to come home. It was weird.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Today a judge stuns child advocates across the country, granting a $200,000 bond in the murders of five children. This is post- conviction. Andrea Yates -- she was prosecuted on the death of three of them.
Straight out to Andy Kahan, joining us from Texas, crime victims` advocate. Response.
ANDY KAHAN, DIR., VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: You know, Nancy, the reality is, this is a case about five dead children. And exactly what Marc and you have been echoing throughout your show, it appears to me that all the attention seems to be on what`s best for Andrea, and no one is talking about the brutal, horrific murder of Noah, John, Mary, Luke and Paul, who have no one to speak for them except for, it appears like you, myself, Marc and the prosecutors. And who`s crying out for justice for them? That`s what I think has been the forgotten element in this case. It`s not every day that someone brutally murders five defenseless young children.
GRACE: One by one.
KAHAN: Yes. And in such a horrific fashion. Can you imagine the last one, Noah, the 7-year-old, and the strength and the perseverance that it must have taken for her to continually hold him down in the tub? It`s - - it`s absolutely revolting to me.
And what you said about her going to the mental ins institution -- and I`ve dealt with many cases here in Houston in which defendants have been sent to that mental institution. You are absolutely correct. It is not a locked-down facility. So basically, she can almost come and go as she pleases. And obviously, due to the high-profile nature and the recognizable aspect of who she is, you know, it`s probably going to be very difficult for her to walk out.
GRACE: And Andy, let`s say that they dig up the $20,000, which is not going to be hard to do between family and friends of the Yateses...
KAHAN: No, I expect her to walk out tomorrow.
GRACE: I do, too. If not sooner. Very often, people make bond coincidentally in the middle of the night, so cameras aren`t there to see it go down. Is there any recourse for prosecutors once this judge has given bond and she decides to leave the mental facility?
KAHAN: That`s going to be a great issue because, frankly, I don`t really recall any cases -- at least, to my knowledge, maybe you can wrack your brains on this -- where cases have been -- basically been given a bond on the condition that you`ll serve your time in a mental institution. So I`m not sure what the precedent would be. My best guess would be, like any person who failed to abide by the conditions of the bond, she`d be brought back before the judge and, hopefully, revoked and that`ll be the end of it until March 21.
GRACE: Tonight, joining us out of Texas, Andy Kahan. The legal world stunned when a judge has granted bond to a five-time killer mom.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." A glaring no-show by husband and father Neil Entwistle at the funeral today of his own wife, Rachel, and 9-month-old baby daughter, Lillian Rose. Entwistle a person of interest in their double murder, went back to his native Great Britain, refusing to return to the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE FLAHERTY, RACHEL ENTWISTLE FAMILY SPOKESMAN: The entire family is overwhelmed by the loss of Rachel and Lillian and the events of last weekend. We are also grateful for the outpouring of prayers, love and support proffered by family, friends and strangers alike. The family asks for your continued prayers. They`re also asking that you respect their privacy during this most difficult time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Mother and child buried together today.
GRACE: Five children lost their lives at the hands of their own mother, Andrea Yates. Many considered her mentally ill at the time. A jury disagreed. That issue aside, today a judge has granted her, essentially, $20,000 bond.
To Buck Files, Jr. He`s the defense attorney for Deanna Laney, also a Texas mom who killed her children. Do you believe that Yates is a danger?
BUCK FILES, JR., DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s really no way to tell whether she`s a danger or not because we don`t know how she is responding to her medication. However, in the state`s brief, which they filed with the court of appeals, the prosecutor who was doing the brief said she is not a cold, calculated killer. She was and is mentally ill. People who are mentally ill ought to be given the best care the state has to offer.
So I`m not sure what the state believes, but they have suggested that she is certainly not a cold, calculating killer.
GRACE: Well, you know, it seems to me, Mr. Files, that while they agree she may be mentally ill at this juncture -- no one wants to deny her mental treatment, nobody. I don`t want to deny her mental treatment. I also don`t want her walking out free on bond and working at a local day care center!
To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner. What happens physically when a person drowns to death, like these five children?
DR. JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, the process is pretty simple, I`m afraid. It`s horrible but simple. The water prevents you from breathing, and generally, the water gets into the your lungs, prevents all the oxygen from getting in. And it`s a specialized form of asphyxiation. Is not a pleasant way to go, and I`m sure that these children were fighting for their lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I still remain optimistic. I know it`s hard to do it, but what other hope do we have but to rely on the Aruban criminal justice system? And we just hope that it will prevail. We hope they Aruba will show us they do have enforceable laws, such as perjury, and obstruction of justice, and rape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Aruban authorities leave the U.S. and head back home with new clues with a break in the case or are they empty-handed? Is it too little, too late? To investigative reporter Pat Lalama, bring us up-to-date, friend.
LALAMA: All right, here`s the latest. The Aruban officials were able to interview 17 of the 21 young people that they had hoped to talk to. They said all of that was based on having looked through previous interviews. They were concerned about some holes and inconsistencies.
They`re done with that. We don`t know what those people told or whether there was anything new.
The search will continue in the sand dunes in the northwest region, about a mile from the Marriott. They`re going to look at information they got from infrared cameras. They still hope to bring in cadaver dogs. And at this point, that`s the latest.
GRACE: Take a listen to this. I believe this is where they should focus their interrogation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, FORMER SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE: She was drunk. I had stuff to drink, too, but now I don`t respect that the Aruban authorities tried to pin it that it was a rape case. She wanted to go with me, I wanted to go with her. It was totally consensual. I had something to drink, and she had something to drink.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think if you can explain to people what really happened and you were really forthcoming, the more forthcoming you are, the more chance there is of you to get on with your life.
VAN DER SLOOT: One day, I will explain exactly what happened, but right now I don`t -- I don`t feel ready to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you leave a girl on the beach?
VAN DER SLOOT: I told her I had to go home. I had school the next day. And I thought maybe she`d understand. She told me, no, she wanted me to stay there with her, because the next day she was leaving, and she wanted to stay there the whole night.
I told her, no, I had to go. I even lifted her up to carry her back to her hotel, and she told me to put her down. I left her there. I sat down next to her, talked to her a while, and I called Deepak to ask him if he could come pick me up, which Deepak didn`t do, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she angry?
VAN DER SLOOT: She wasn`t angry. If it`s anything, she was probably more upset I was leaving her there. And I don`t know what reaction she had. I don`t know.
At the time, I didn`t feel it was a bad idea. At the time, I really didn`t -- it didn`t seem wrong, it didn`t seem -- of course, now I look back at it and I think (bleep) I`m an ass(bleep). What did I do? But there`s nothing I can do about it now. If I`d have that moment back, I would have made sure she got back to her hotel safely, but I can`t change that now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, there is something you can do. You can cooperate with police.
To Jossy Mansur, managing director and editor of "Diario" magazine, Jossy, tell me about this F-16 infrared usage. What did they find?
JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": I don`t know. I heard that they were going to use it at the northern side of the island by the lighthouse. Apparently, they have some additional information from one or two witnesses that came forward in the past two to three weeks that have given them some kind of lead that they are concentrating now on that side of the beach to the north of the lighthouse.
GRACE: To Beth Twitty, Natalee`s mother, welcome, Beth. It`s great to see you again. Beth, all along, didn`t Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoes say that she had gone toward the lighthouse, they had taken her, she wanted to go toward the lighthouse?
TWITTY: Oh, yes, Nancy. In some of his earlier statements, that`s where that he said that he and the Kalpoe brothers took Natalee, was to the lighthouse. So you`re exactly right.
GRACE: Well, Beth, then what`s new about this information? I mean, why are they just now deciding to search the dunes around the lighthouse?
TWITTY: You know, I can`t imagine, Nancy. And I just want to say that sound bite that you played -- you know, I mean, it`s just perfect, because, within that one sound bite, he`s saying the words drunk, consensual, and rape.
And, you know, I just -- you know, there`s no way that you can have those three -- three in the same -- in the same sentence. And, you know, why they couldn`t get Joran early on in the interrogation, if they would have just used their (INAUDIBLE) interrogators, they could have gotten the information from Joran without having to go through what we`ve gone through and, you know, trying to turn up something off infrared or pulling together these search teams. You know, they just chose to do it the hard way, Nancy.
GRACE: Beth, what did they pick up on the infrared search?
TWITTY: Well, you know, the first time that they did it, it was reported to me that nothing turned up. And that was probably, you know, in the middle of June when they did infrared search, of course, over the dump and certain areas of the island. But, you know, I never heard back a report from the F-16s and really wasn`t sure what they could pick up anyway, Nancy.
GRACE: To Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father, Dave, what do you make of all the re-interviews of these students, those that were there with Natalee the night she went missing?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, I spoke with the FBI today. And I think it was just to clear up some holes that the investigators had within their mind.
As you recall, all the Mountain Brook kids left that same morning, and they didn`t have the opportunity to speak with them, so -- and they saw some things on the Internet that may have been a little bit different. So they wanted to talk to these kids, and I think they`ve cleaned all that up.
GRACE: To Don Clark, former head of the FBI Houston bureau, Don, is it too little, too late? I mean, can you really get someone to clear up an inconsistency a year after the fact?
DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Well, Nancy, it`s never too little, too late. You can`t just let these cases lie dormant, and you`ve got to keep trying to do something.
And I know there`s been a lot of speculation about the competency of the police over there and what happened, but the bottom line, at least they made the effort to come over here. And I talked to the FBI today. And they said, yes, we facilitated and assisted them with the interview.
That was a good thing, because perhaps they may be able to generate some information that they didn`t have before, be able to tie that together and, who knows, find the holes in some of these statements that they may have previously taken.
GRACE: Joining us now, clinical psychiatrist Dr. Lisa Weinstock. Lisa, it seems to me, from studying the statistics I`ve got, that the tourism in Aruba since this debacle, since Natalee`s disappearance has gone up. Seventy percent of that tourism is American.
Do these people need a shrink? I mean, why, when you learn of this horrific event, would people then want to go to Aruba?
LISA WEINSTOCK, PSYCHIATRIST: You know, it`s hard to say, Nancy. Perhaps some of them aren`t paying attention to the news. Perhaps some of them feel that they don`t blame the Aruban authorities. So it`s really tough to say.
I can tell you that I was actually in Puerto Rice a couple of weeks ago and ran into somebody who said that he used to go to Aruba every year and chose to go to Puerto Rico this year because he didn`t want to go. So there are certainly people who are avoiding the island, but then there are others who don`t pay attention or don`t feel that it`s an important thing to act on.
GRACE: Hey, Lisa, what do you say to parents that have lost someone the way these parents have lost Natalee, and they basically have the whole investigation thrown into their lap? They never have a time to mourn. They never have a time to grieve. They`re basically conducting the investigation themselves.
WEINSTOCK: You know, what can you say? I mean, you can give them kudos for their strength and their persistence. And obviously, losing a child is the most horrific thing that anyone can imagine. And no one can really understand the pain except the person who`s going through it.
And all you can do is encourage them, as we can encourage the Holloways, to continue to fight the good fight and hopefully do whatever they can do in the face of other people not doing their jobs.
GRACE: To Alan Ripka, Alan, it`s my understanding that not only has infrared search been done around the dunes but now dogs, specially-trained dogs, are being brought in from overseas to Aruba to search. At this juncture, would you expect them forensically to find anything?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think the longer they search and the greater the investigation, the more expectation we can have that they may find something. I mean, if you cover every inch of the island, you may find something that you missed before. And the longer this goes on, the greater the chance.
And cadaver dogs are trained to find this type of material and smell it out. And I would hope they would do this and more and continue to do this until they find answers.
GRACE: Back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario" magazine, Jossy, I understand this area they`re about to search is from 10 to 15 football fields large. Now, you remember the search of the dump? Remember the draining of the pond, OK? Who is going to be performing this search?
MANSUR: I understand it`s being done by a group of policemen, I mean students to become police, recently graduated policemen, and friends of them that have put together a group that are doing this search.
GRACE: Pat Lalama, what can you tell us about the search that is about to be kicked off?
LALAMA: Well, as the one that I just mentioned, you know, they will peruse this area as best they can with the cadaver dogs. Remember, they`re also talking about bringing in deep-sea equipment, which has yet to happen. That`s my latest understanding.
But they wanted to go way out in the deeper waters, 400 to 600 feet deep, and get way down there with the equipment. And, as far as I know, they have not been able to do that at this point.
GRACE: To Beth Twitty -- this is Natalee`s mom, everyone, as you well know -- what led, what tip, what information, Beth, led to this decision to search the dunes around the lighthouse?
TWITTY: Well, Nancy, I think it`s always been a suspicious area from early on and, you know, even in some of Joran`s statements. And I think that there must be somewhat -- these two witnesses that have come forward must be somewhat credible for them to pull together this coordinated search effort with Dutch forensic institute in Holland and the officials on the island. So they must be putting credibility into these witnesses.
GRACE: You say two new witnesses, two new witnesses?
TWITTY: Well, I`m not sure if there were -- I heard that there were one or two. It was reported to me, Nancy, but I`m not sure.
GRACE: And also, I understand that certain cell phone records have now been brought forward. Do you understand in any way they can trace where these three were, Joran and the two Kalpoe brothers, at the time Natalee went missing?
TWITTY: You know, that was something we were asking early on. And it seemed the answer we were getting were the cell towers were just too close together on the small area of land, and it was really hard to pinpoint which tower that it was coming from.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE MURPHY, CLARK COUNTY CORONER: Someone had to care for this little girl until her death. Someone has to know that there is a child missing. I think what we`re reaching out to the community for is help us identify who this little girl is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Baby Jane Cordova Doe, who is she? Can you help us identify this girl? We believe her to be around two years old. Her body found in a dumpster in Vegas.
You know how many people would love to have a baby, a baby to raise, a baby to love, a family of their own? Well, somebody didn`t. And according to sources we have developed tonight, this child had bruises on her body, bruises that were obtained prior to death.
Straight to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Help us, Ed. Give us the facts.
ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, Nancy, it`s a heartbreaking story. And as you were saying, there are some old and new bruises on the child, which seem to indicate that there was a pattern of child abuse.
She died from blunt force trauma, which means she was either -- somebody punched her with a fist or beat her with something or threw her against a wall. She certainly didn`t fall down the stairs over and over again.
Now, however, as horrible as the crime is, you have to ask some other hard questions. Since people have not stepped forward -- nobody has come forward -- you have to ask yourself, is this child a victim of human trafficking? Was she sold to somebody and somebody didn`t like what they got? Or is she the innocent pawn in some sort of drug deal that went bad? Because if it was simply...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait! You know, Ed Miller, no offense, but just when I think I`ve heard it all...
GRACE: ... and there`s nothing more horrific left...
MILLER: It`s horrible.
GRACE: ... then you jump up and say something about human trafficking. And you know what? I can`t even say that you`re wrong. It`s entirely possible.
MILLER: Yes. It`s horrible. She was left with the coffee grounds and eggshells in the garbage, like garbage. And of course, she wasn`t. She was a lovely child.
There are six Hispanic children reported missing across the country right now. However, police say they are trying to match them but they think it`s a long-shot, because most of those kidnappings are parental abductions, you know, some sort of ugly custody battle.
So they don`t think it`s one of these children it`s going to be a match. So, as you say, if it was a simple parental child abuse thing, somebody would have stepped forward, Grandma, or a neighbor, somebody would have stepped forward. So therefore they keep going back to these other theories that are even more horrible.
GRACE: Ed, how was this photo produced?
MILLER: A very important question, and I do have an answer for you, that there were two photos. The first photo was computer-enhanced to soften her features the way they believe the child should have looked in life.
The second picture is an autopsy picture. And as you well know, they never, never release autopsy pictures, because they`re simply too gruesome, but felt, since no one had stepped forward the first time, they should release this picture so you can see.
This is exactly the way that child was found in the dumpster. I mean, they air-brushed it a little bit just so you wouldn`t -- you know, it wouldn`t be all that gruesome, but that is the way that child looked in the dumpster.
GRACE: Everyone, I hate to give you this bad news tonight. We are bringing you the story of Baby Jane Cordova Doe, just so you can help. This child thrown away, like Ed Miller has reported, along with broken eggs, and coffee grounds, old paper towels and newspapers, in a dumpster in Vegas.
To Andy Kahan, what kind of person kills a child and then throws a child into the trash?
KAHAN: The worst kind of human trash that you`ve got known to mankind. You know, it`s sad that your entire show tonight is basically involving the deaths and brutal, horrific murders of young children. And here we go with another one.
And, you know, it`s just mind-boggling to me that you`ve got nobody in this apartment complex that is willing to come forward and do the right thing. And, you know, somebody knows something. And hopefully, you know, with a $50,000 reward out there that some brave person is going to come out and do the right thing and give this girl some semblance of justice and peace.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, what do you think it will take to break this case? It can be done, Marc.
KLAAS: Well, what it`s going to take is exactly what`s being done. It`s going to take somebody recognizing the picture and having the courage to come up and do something about it.
The problem is though is that, if this killer gets back into Mexico, it may never be solved. You know, the Mexican authorities seem to care very, very little about female victims; hence, we have hundreds and hundreds of unsolved cases in Juarez, Mexico alone.
GRACE: Yes. Alan Ripka, at this juncture, there`s a $50,000 reward. Do you think that`s going to bring about an answer? It`s my firm belief somebody in that apartment complex knows, Cordova Complex, knows about this child.
RIPKA: I think, Nancy, sooner or later it`s going to be a great help. Hopefully, there`s more about that. Hopefully, there`s forensics on this child, fingerprints on the clothes she was wearing, you know, hair, some kinds of fibers. Maybe they can match them with someone who has been in jail before or something like that. But certainly people of this ilk will be very interested in that $50,000.
GRACE: And of course, Alan Ripka, veteran trial lawyer, who has specialized in homicide cases.
Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI across this country on the lookout for Gloria Louise Schulze (ph) wanted in connection with the `94 DUI death of 21-year-old Angela Mars (ph), Scottsdale, Arizona.
Schulze is 43, 5`5", 115 pounds, red hair, green eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 602-279-5511.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of a now 16-year-old New Mexico young man on trial for the shooting death of his family, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Everyone, please stay with us tonight as we stop to remember Lance Corporal Jonathan K. Price, just 19 -- just out of high school -- an American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leads in Mexico have been tracked down, address, as well as some of those leads in California. And at this time, they have not yielded any benefit to this investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Las Vegas police have been literally working around the clock. They`ve had over 585 leads, 150 of those leads left to investigate. There`s a huge memorial now around a trash bin at a Vegas apartment complex, the Cordova apartment complex, made of stuffed animals, and candles, flowers, for this girl.
And tonight, we ask your help. Don`t let her be buried in an unmarked grave. Who is this girl?
To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner, what clues can we get from her body, from her clothes, from under her nails, to determine who is the perpetrator?
ARDEN: The kind of clues that you`re going to get from her will be primarily DNA evidence. You can assess what her DNA is, but you need a comparison, you need something to match that up to, if you`re going to link that to somebody else.
There may be hairs and fibers on her that can lead to another environment, another lead of where she might have been, what kind of surroundings she might have been in. There might possibly be some material under her nails. But again, you`re still left with the idea that, if you do the DNA on that, you have to match it to somebody. You have to have a known sample.
GRACE: That`s right. You`ve got to have a known suspect.
And very quickly, Pat Lalama, her photo now being distributed to Mexico, South America, Canada, why?
LALAMA: Well, because this is something that I have found very interesting. Some of the DNA technology they have now, they think they could link part of her DNA to certain regions, to various cultures. And that at least might help them narrow it down.
But, Nancy, I just want to say very quickly, in the state of California -- I`m sure it`s in a lot of places -- here, there`s no questions asked if you drop a baby or a child off at a church or a health care facility. Why these heinous, selfish people have to kill their children, I don`t know.
GRACE: Pat Lalama, I`m so glad you reminded us of that.
One last look at Baby Jane Cordova Doe.
Thank you to all of our guests, but our biggest thank you is to you for bringing us into your homes every night, hearing our legal stories.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, I hope. Until then, good night, friend.