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Is a Serial Killer on the Loose in Massachusetts?
Aired February 3, 2006 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Is a serial killer stalking women and girls in Massachusetts? Two decades, nearly 10 unsolved murders and kidnaps in one small section of the state. And tonight, we connect the dots, focusing on three of those crimes in an attempt to crack them all: a 17-year-old high school senior, a 29-year-old young woman found dead behind a private school, and a third, a 10-year-old girl. Tonight, we want answers.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: What is the key to multiple deaths and abductions in a specific area of Massachusetts? Nearly 10 women abducted and murdered in cases with incredible similarities. Tonight, we focus on three cases and ask you for information.
In 2004, Carmen Rudy (ph), 29 years old, her body found behind an exclusive private school. In 1993, 10-year-old Holly Piirainen abducted, killed, Sturbridge, Massachusetts. Hundreds interviewed. No resolution.
But first tonight, Patricia Gonyea, 17-year-old high school senior from Worcester, lost her life as she walked home from the bus stop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He also had a knife, and I see where he cut her. But that isn`t what killed her, they told me. What killed her was when he grabbed her by the hair and smashed her head and kept smashing it against a brick wall. And they said that`s what actually killed her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Kim Ring, reporter with "The Worcester Telegram & Gazette." Kim, bring us up to date, friend.
KIM RING, "WORCESTER TELEGRAM & GAZETTE": Well, Patty`s case will be 22 years this October. She was 17 years old. She had played Trivial Pursuit with her boyfriend that night. He put her on a bus. She got off in the main south area, and the last time anyone saw her alive. A neighbor reported that he spotted a man following her as she walked in the area of Crystal (ph) Park, and the next day, her body was found behind a factory building. She`d been bludgeoned to death.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa~! Wait. Wait. Who spotted a man walking behind her?
RING: This is a neighbor who lived in the Gate (ph) Street area, who had run out to walk his dog. It was pouring rain that night. He didn`t realize that it was Patty that he saw until later, said he recognized her and realized it was her when the police said she had her umbrella open. The girl that he saw also was walking with an open umbrella, being followed by this white man about six feet tall.
GRACE: White male, six feet tall. Was she molested?
RING: It`s unclear. Family members have said they believe she was sexually assaulted. The police have never come forward and said that.
GRACE: Well, OK. That`s highly important, highly integral to the case. If she was sexually assaulted, there should be DNA from sperm.
RING: Well, I think, recently, the Licensed Private Detectives Association has a volunteer private investigator who`s been working on the case, and there are some new developments.
GRACE: You know, let`s go straight out to Tom Shamshak, private investigator. What can you tell us?
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Nancy, in 2004, Kathleen Vivlamore came to the Molly Bish Foundation seeking our investigative assistance, and Beverly Gravison (ph), a Worcester-based private investigator, took on the case. Recently, Beverly directed Worcester police detectives to a person of interest who had been identified many years ago, and she`s directed them to physical evidence.
GRACE: What physical evidence are we talking about? Oh, wait. Wait a minute. Look at this girl. What a little cutie! Had good grades. No problems. Went to her boyfriend`s home. He lived with his family. They had a little game of Trivial Pursuit. She even called her mother that night, like you want your kid to do, called and said, Can I take the next bus? And mom says, Yes, you can. She took the bus, as she told her mom she would do. She never made it home. This is not some little hellion out there, dyeing her hair black and shooting up cocaine, all right? This is a good little girl, who even asked her mom for permission to take a late bus.
Tom, I just don`t get it, why this girl -- why we don`t have any physical evidence, such as DNA, fibers, fingerprints.
SHAMSHAK: Well, again, without really disclosing what`s going on, I can tell you that demonstrative steps are being taken to look at physical evidence that would link an individual to that crime and...
GRACE: Tom, Tom, you know how much I respect you. You`re a former police chief. You`re a current private investigator. But Tom, it`s been 20 years! What do you mean, without disclosing a secret? It`s been 20 years! Don`t you think it`s time that we disclose what we`ve got, to try to solve these mysteries? They`re not just mysteries, like a movie. This is a real little girl. This destroyed her whole family!
SHAMSHAK: Listen, Nancy, I share your observation that the situation has lingered there. But after the family came to the Molly Bish Foundation, we jump-started this investigation, went to local law enforcement, and have been -- you know, Beverly Gravison, much to her credit, has really dug on this. This is a case that is moving forward. And again, physical evidence is being processed as we speak.
GRACE: Why is it just being processed now?
SHAMSHAK: Because the private investigator went out and was able to locate a person of interest, and...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!~ I did not know we have a POI, person of interest.
GRACE: Straight to Patricia`s mother, Kathleen Vivlamore. Ms. Vivlamore, thank you for being with us.
KATHLEEN VIVLAMORE, PATRICIA GONYEA`S MOTHER: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Tell us about your girl.
VIVLAMORE: My -- do you mean by daughter Patty Ann (ph) or the...
VIVLAMORE: ... girls that I have alive?
VIVLAMORE: My daughter Patty Ann was a typical teenager. She was really a very bubbly personality. She was a good kid. She went to school. She would have been graduating in two -- in 1985. And she had plans, and she wanted to go to college and work (INAUDIBLE) and where eventually, she could have a family and work at home. She also worked at Aunt Belle`s (ph) restaurant, and she helped me out with the other kids because she was the oldest one at home at that time.
And I still had four younger than her. She used to baby-sit for me because I worked and it`d take me an hour longer to get home before my other children were home. So she used to go home every -- every day after school to make sure she was there for those sisters and brothers. And I couldn`t have asked for a better daughter.
GRACE: Ms. Vivlamore, you are reminding me so much of my little niece, the same age. She`s getting ready to go away to college, all of her dreams ahead of her. I just don`t know what I would do if anything happened to her. Ms. Vivlamore, what happened the night she went missing?
VIVLAMORE: Well, when I got home from work that night, she was at my house with the boy -- with her boyfriend was there. They were going over to his house to play Trivial Pursuit. So I started making supper right away. And she kissed me good-bye, and she went off and got the bus to go to her boyfriend`s.
And then she called me -- it was about 9:30, quarter of 10:00 -- to ask if she could get the later bus home because they were playing the game. And they were hoping that her boyfriend`s mother got home with the car and he would have gave her -- she would have gave them a ride. But that never happened. Her boyfriend walked her to the bus stop. She got the bus. She got off the bus in front of Clark University and went to come home. And then she didn`t make it the last two blocks!
GRACE: Elizabeth, take the camera off Ms. Vivlamore, please.
I want to go straight back to Tom Shamshak. And by the way, we are showing you the spot where this young girl`s body was found, and in a moment, Elizabeth will show you the train station -- the bus station, excuse me -- where she got off the bus.
I want to go back to you, Tom Shamshak, private investigator, former police chief. Tom, tell me how the body was found. Let`s see what we can determine.
SHAMSHAK: The body was found partially clothed, in a well around a window, covered with cardboard debris.
GRACE: And you`re saying that it was partially covered? Was she hidden?
SHAMSHAK: Well, she wasn`t buried, but she was covered with this cardboard debris.
GRACE: OK. Hold on. Hold on. To Catherine Burton, psychologist. Catherine, what does it mean to you that the killer took the time to cover up the body?
CATHERINE BURTON, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, obviously, he was trying to hide -- he was trying to hide what he had done, and he took the time -- maybe it means that he had planned it.
GRACE: Well, another issue -- with us, psychologist Catherine Burton. When a killer knows the victim, very often, they take the time to hide the body or cover it up. If it`s a random killing, they don`t care.
BURTON: That`s right. That`s exactly right. They just throw it away like it doesn`t mean anything, like a piece of trash. But if they know the body, then they try to preserve it, try to hide it and cover their tracks.
GRACE: That`s been my experience in murder prosecutions.
Take a listen to what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. GARY QUITADAMO, WORCESTER POLICE: Her body was discovered down in here, covered with several items of trash.
Any investigator, when you`re involved in a case like this -- most of the investigators involved in this case have retired. And certainly, a young girl who`s horrifically murdered in the way Ms. Gonyea was murdered, that`s going to stick in your mind. It`s going to stay there, and it`s going to bother you. That`s one of those cases you feel like it got away from you, that you were, unfortunately, unable to solve at this point.
We`re working very hard on it at this time. Again, I hate to use the word cold cases, but typically, they`re looked at periodically, and I know they`ve been spending a lot of time on this case most recently.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To criminal profiler John Kelly with S.T.A.L.K., Incorporated. John, what`s your take on who this perp is?
JOHN KELLY, S.T.A.L.K. INC.: Well, the way we`re looking at it, I`m looking at an unorganized individual here. I think it was a random attack. And I also believe that a person of interest that definitely needs to be looked at is a Peter Mason (ph), who is serving time now in a Massachusetts prison for murdering two women in 1981. At that time, he was about 51 years old. He`s about 55 years old now. This case is about 20 years old, so he would have been about 35 at the time.
KELLY: We know that these guys...
KELLY: ... get started between 25 and 35. Yes?
GRACE: John, is he about a 6-foot white male?
KELLY: He`s definitely a white male, and he is around 6 foot. And he likes to bludgeon women to death, OK? One of the women that he pleaded out to murdering was bludgeoned. There`s no question about it. And another girl was bludgeoned by him with a brick, and she did survive and ran to police and had police apprehend him.
GRACE: Do we have a lead tonight in a long-unsolved murder mystery of a 17-year-old girl killed 1984, Patty Gonyea?
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Major developments in the shooting death of Sean Keel, a 24-year-old San Francisco husband, father of two. Police tonight release photos of the distinctive rims on Keel`s car, stolen after the shooting. Also tonight, investigators are no longer certain the motive was carjack. They say, based on a single fingerprint, a former parolee could be involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSA KEEL, MURDERED MAN`S WIFE: I`m asking the Bayview (ph) community, that anyone that knows anything to please get in contact with the investigators that are working on this case. I`m begging you, please help us so that we can have some type of closure and go on with our lives. If we don`t find the murderers, the murderers that did this to Sean, there`s going to be no closure for us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If you have info on the death of Sean Keel, please call San Francisco police, 415-575-4444. A trust fund for the Keel family at any Wells Fargo bank -- mention the Rosa Keel Trust Fund -- or by mail to the Rosa Keel Trust Fund, care of Wells Fargo, 464 California Street, San Francisco, 94163.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-one years, and he`s still out there. And I think what could he have done in the last 21 years? Has he hurt anybody else? I hope to God not, you know? But he needs to be off the, street and that`s what I want to come out of this, for anybody, any information that you have, even if it`s the littlest thing, please tell us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The murder of 17-year-old Patty Gonyea tore her family apart. And now, over 20 years later, they are still suffering.
Back to John Kelly, criminal profiler with S.T.A.L.K. Inc. If you really believe this guy is a person of interest -- not an official suspect, person of interest -- why are police sitting on their thumbs?
KELLY: That`s an excellent question, Nancy. It`s one I think only the police can answer. I think, lots of times, jurisdictions really don`t communicate a lot of information, and I think it`s important for them to sit down and really take a look at all the cold cases. Don`t forget, this guy was 51-year-old when he got arrested. These guys start out 25, 35. Where has this guy been for 20 years? I`m sure these aren`t the first two women that he`s -- that he`s murdered...
GRACE: Wait a minute. John, how long has he been behind bars?
KELLY: He`s been behind bars, I believe, since 2002.
GRACE: Two Renee Rockwell, defense attorney. Very often, I would have cases, and you would have defended cases, where the defense attorney would say, But he hasn`t done anything in five years. And I look at the record, I`m, like, yes, because he`s been in jail for five years!
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Or he hasn`t been caught.
GRACE: Notice how crime suddenly drops off when they go to jail?
ROCKWELL: Or he hasn`t been caught. But Nancy, in a case like this, that`s this old, what we`re going to have to rely on maybe is not physical evidence. Now that this is getting attention now, it might be that he maybe confessed to this, maybe to an ex-girlfriend, who`s mad now, who`s going to come forward and say, You know what? There is a reward now -- if there is a reward -- there`s a reward now, so now I`m going to tell on him. Think of the peace that it would give the family at least to know that the crime has been solved.
GRACE: And speaking of the tip line -- 508-799-8611 -- I want to go back to Patty Gonyea`s mom, Kathleen Vivlamore. Ms. Vivlamore, again, thank you for being with us. What has this...
VIVLAMORE: You`re welcome. I`m sorry that I...
GRACE: Ms. Vivlamore, we are sorry that you`re suffering. And tonight, I want you to tell whoever may be listening what the murder of your girl has done to your family.
VIVLAMORE: Our family will never be the same. I raised my kids. You know, we had each other. You know, no one could take that from us, and we`re very close. And it changed all our lives. The way that my daughters bring up their kids -- it`s like walking down the street. I have one daughter that can`t even say her name, which I know they need counseling. I`d like to see them get back into counseling.
GRACE: Did your family move after this incident?
VIVLAMORE: Yes, two years after because it only happened two blocks from where I lived. You went out the back door, and you could see the railroad tracks there. So finally, I did. I relocated my family in the country, and things helped. As they say, time heals. It doesn`t really heal. It makes it a little bit easier.
It took me four years, but I had a nervous breakdown after four years. And then I come out of it and I realized I still had four teenagers that I had to raise, and I wasn`t helping them because I couldn`t help myself. But you know, we`re -- we`re better where we are now, in the country. And I wish I could have done that when Patty Ann was still alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA HARRINGTON, HOLLY PIIRAINEN`S MOTHER: I got really, really, really scared because it was already started to get dark. And when I saw all the cruisers and, like, all the people that were there, I was, like, Oh, my God. This isn`t happening.
You know, I think about her every day. And at least I do have faith. I know I`ll see her again someday, but I miss not being able to see her grow up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Is there a serial killer stalking in Massachusetts? Now, nearly 10 years later, the murder of 10-year-old Holly Piirainen still not solved, her mother still distraught.
To Kim Ring, reporter with "The Worcester Telegram & Gazette." Kim, tell us about the case of Holly Piirainen.
RING: Well, Holly was 10 years old, adorable little blond girl who was visiting in Sturbridge at her grandmother`s house. Her and her brother walked down the street to look at some puppies. Her brother came back and she didn`t. Her shoe was found in the street, and a couple of months later, a hunter found her remains off Five Bridge Road (ph) in Brimfield, which is the next town over.
GRACE: So Kim, this little girl was actually snatched off the street?
RING: It appears that she was snatched off the street. Again, you know, there are different schools of thought on that. Some believe she may have been hit by a car, but there`s no evidence to support that.
GRACE: Now, that`s an interesting theory.
To Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, forensic anthropologist. How is it different when you are searching or you find a small child`s remains, as opposed to an adult? And wouldn`t you be able to tell if there had been a car accident?
DR. LESLIE EISENBERG, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, I think there`s all kinds of evidence that investigators could find, not just forensic anthropologists. But what you have to remember, when you are dealing with skeletal remains of a child or an adolescent, there are -- and enough time has passed that the remains may have decomposed, you are actually collecting, if you`re doing it properly, many more bones.
For example, in a child`s skeleton, there are 200 more bones than there are in an adult`s skeleton. That not only affects -- or should affect your search strategy, but if you screen dirt, you need to use a smaller-size screen to be able to catch those smaller bones.
GRACE: In this case, the remains of Holly Piirainen found, just 10 years old. The theory is that she was taken off the street as she walked along with her 5-year-old little brother. We`ll be right back with the story on Holly. We want answers tonight.
Also here at NANCY GRACE, we want very much to help solved unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 15-year-old Cristal Diaz, last seen in Merrimac, Massachusetts, September 2005. She hasn`t been gone long. If you have info on Cristal Diaz, call Merrimac police, 978-346- 8321, or go on line to Beyondmissing.com.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seemed very eerily quiet, and we didn`t know anything. And we were all very panicked and said, no, there`s no way she`s lost. She`s been taken. Someone has taken her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was kind of surreal, like it really wasn`t happening. I guess I was kind of in shock. It was just -- you can`t believe something like this happens, you know? It`s like this can`t be happening. It`s not happening to me. It`s a bad dream. I`m going to wake up. It`s not going to be real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Over 10 years ago, a 10-year-old little girl, Holly Piirainen, went missing, her bones found later in a wooded area. So many abductions, so many murders in the one small swath of land in Massachusetts. Can you help us tonight? Tip-line: 413-747-4810.
Joining me now, Holly`s mother, Christina Harrington. Ms. Harrington, thank you for being with us.
CHRISTINA HARRINGTON, HOLLY PIIRAINEN`S MOTHER: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Ms. Harrington, do you recall the day Holly went missing?
HARRINGTON: Unfortunately very clearly. I found out she was on vacation with her father and her brothers in Sturbridge. And I found out only because there were police at my apartment looking for Holly, asking if I knew where she was.
And then, on my answering machine, messages from the state police, from Holly`s father. And so right away I drove to Sturbridge, only to find out that she was still missing. There were cruisers everywhere, people, you know, asking all sorts of questions. And it didn`t look good right from the start.
GRACE: Was she with her brother at the time she went missing?
HARRINGTON: From what I was told, she was with her brother, her youngest brother, Zachary, who was 5-year-old. They had gone up the road a little ways -- you know, it was a very remote dirt road -- to look at some puppies they had seen the night before. And I guess Zachary came back without his sister.
GRACE: What was he able to tell the police?
HARRINGTON: He was only five at the time. And all he said was that he came back and left her there, which I thought was a little strange. I didn`t think that Holly would let Zachary walk back to the house by himself. He was only five.
She was the oldest -- you know, the oldest in the family, very protective. I don`t think she would have even let him walk back. So I don`t know if he just doesn`t remember or was just terrified. It just seems like she was taken. I mean, she could have taken right in front of him and he just blocked it out or something, you know, I don`t know.
GRACE: As the years pass -- it`s now been well over 10 years -- are your hopes for closure fading?
HARRINGTON: My hopefulness does fade a bit with time, but also the feeling that this person really needs to be brought to justice. And we don`t want to think of this person as walking around free to do this again to some other little girl or some woman. We`d like to know what happened and who did this.
GRACE: Christina, when were Holly`s remains discovered? And who informed you of that?
HARRINGTON: Actually, Holly`s remains were discovered October 23rd by a hunter or hunters. Unfortunately, I heard this secondhand. I got a phone call that it was actually on the news, and that`s how I found out.
GRACE: Back to Kim Ring with the "Worcester Telegram and Gazette," Kim, how is the community responding to all of these unsolved abductions and murders?
RING: I think people are a little nervous about this. Holly`s case leads us to Molly Bish`s case, and there are some connections that may exist there.
Initially, in both cases, there was a huge public response, big searches that turned up nothing, and just, you know, ribbons flying everywhere, yellow ribbons, and everyone looking for these kids.
GRACE: Recently we profiled for you the disappearance of that young girl, Molly Bish.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRINGTON: This is a special personal message to Holly`s parents and relatives. My name is Molly Bish. I am 10 years old. Someday I would like to come see you. I am very sorry. I wish I could make up to you.
Holly is a very pretty girl. She`s almost as tall as me. I wish I knew Holly. I hope they found her. She is still in my heart. If you give me your address, and I`ll write more to you. Love, Molly.
P.S., this is my family. I am the one on my mom`s lap. I`m older now.
It`s pretty ironic that Molly ended up sending this letter when she was a little girl. And then, years later, ended up being kidnapped very close to where Holly was kidnapped from.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Tom Shamshak, private eye and former police chief, that is incredibly coincidental that then Molly went missing.
SHAMSHAK: Yes, it is. And we can`t rule out the possibility that there could be one perpetrator here, but we also have to look at it that there could be two perpetrators.
GRACE: Well, tell me the condition of Holly`s body. What did you learn from the bones? What exactly was found?
SHAMSHAK: The law enforcement authorities have been tight-lipped about the forensics. They are obviously in possession of information. I recently have taken on this case for the family, after they turned to the Molly Bish Foundation for investigative assistance.
I`m just coming up to speed, reading as much as I can about the file from what`s out there in the public domain, as well as interviewing a local former police officer in the area who has authored a book. And Mr. McGregan (ph) has been forthcoming with giving me information. I look forward to, you know, getting into the reports that he has and speaking to more family members.
And, again, there is a person of interest in this case. And law enforcement needs just a small...
GRACE: Who? Who is the person of interest?
SHAMSHAK: They need -- you know, there`s a lot of information.
GRACE: Who? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who is the person of interest?
SHAMSHAK: An individual who has been out in the media. He`s living in New Hampshire right now.
GRACE: You mean police have named him formally?
SHAMSHAK: He named himself.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Don`t speak to me in riddles. We`ve already got a big riddle of a lot of missing girls and women. Who`s the person of interest? If you`re going to come on national TV and say there`s a person of interest, he`s named himself, what are you talking about?
SHAMSHAK: An individual by the name of Robert Armes. The family knows who he is. They suspected that he might have not been truthful early on in the investigation.
GRACE: OK. We have a person of interest who`s not an official suspect.
Let me go to Eric. Eric, what can you tell me about this guy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, the gentleman we`re speaking about here, his name is Robert Armes. He`s never been formally named by police as a suspect. And police have been very tight-lipped about their investigation. They`ve interviewed and re-interviewed over a hundred people here. So it`s important to remember, while this gentleman has named himself as a person of interest, the police have not.
GRACE: Everybody, the tip-line, if you can help us tonight solve the mystery of 10-year-old Holly Piirainen, is 413-747-4810. There is a $10,000 reward.
Tonight, update on a missing person case we`ve been following very closely for months. A beautiful Georgia beautician, Leslie Marva Adams, vanished last October. Despite a massive search, no sign of Leslie.
Now, a K-9 detective is following leads from two out-of-town women, psychic detectives who have actually led the police to search the Buford Dam area, north-central Georgia. Police now using psychic detectives.
If you have info on the disappearance of this woman, Leslie Marva Adams, call 770-513-5300.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The investigators have three photographs and many questions about the three women who led tragic lives and died mysterious deaths, apparent victims of a suspected serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I stress that they will be difficult to solve, but all of the agencies who`ve been involved are committed to trying to determine what happened to these three women. If they are homicides, they may well be the work of a serial killer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The suggestion that there is a serial killer stalking women and young girls in Massachusetts is not far-fetched. Elizabeth, do you have that shot of the seven young women, most of their bodies found semi- clothed, killed mostly by asphyxiation or strangulation, found in heavily wooded areas in much, much the same circumstances?
And what about that map, Elizabeth? I mean, Massachusetts is not a big, huge state like Texas or Alaska. I mean, it`s a very small, confined area. And then, within that area, here are the locations of the disappearance and the discovery of the bodies.
Straight out to Scott Croteau, reporter with the "Worcester Telegram and Gazette." Scott, what`s going on? And I`m surprised the population of Massachusetts hasn`t risen up in rebellion.
SCOTT CROTEAU, "WORCESTER TELEGRAM AND GAZETTE": Well, what you`re looking at -- it`s, you know, a case where, in 2003 of September, a bunch of students found the bones of a woman in a shallow grave.
GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, that`s something to put in your high school yearbook. Are you talking about behind that private boys school?
GRACE: OK, so you`ve got an exclusive private boys school. They go playing back in the playground. "Hey, Mom, I was on the monkey bars and found a dead woman."
CROTEAU: Well, it was a nature walk with students with a professor, and they did find it. And what the odd thing is, is a few days later, they found another body about a hundred yards away.
GRACE: A few days later, another female body was basically behind the same boys school?
CROTEAU: Yes, not far away from where the first one was found. The first one was found in a shallow grave; the second one wasn`t.
GRACE: Oh, somebody`s in a hurry. He took the time to bury the first one, and the second one he just tossed away like trash.
CROTEAU: Well, the first one -- it was about a one-foot shallow grave. The second one, yes, it appeared that, if it was a homicide...
GRACE: OK. A couple of quick questions. Both female, correct?
GRACE: Semi-nude or nude?
CROTEAU: They were just bones.
GRACE: Oh, OK. Now right there, though, to Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, forensic anthropologist, to a lot of people it would be just bones. But did those bones have clothing fragments on them? Were there clothes strewn around?
Very important, Leslie, because if cloths are strewn around, you know that the likely rape and murder took place there. If there are not any articles of clothing around the area or still on the body, then that means the rape and murder took place somewhere else and this was just a convenient dumping ground, Leslie.
EISENBERG: Well, you know, you can make certain assumptions. And I think you -- there are other assumptions you have to be careful about. Whenever a body is out in the woods, it`s not out there alone. There are animals out there. There`s wind, rain, and so on.
Obviously, someone took some pains to dig a shallow grave. But it doesn`t take very long to dig a grave that`s only a foot in depth. And in fact, a grave that`s only a foot in depth is not deep enough to accommodate a body.
What I find particularly surprising is that the second set of remains were not discovered at the same time the shallow grave was found, if the search strategy was wide enough. So that second body just didn`t appear there after the first set of remains were found because, from what I understand, the second set of remains were skeletonized, as well.
GRACE: Is that correct, Scott?
CROTEAU: The first body was also found with pajamas and some jewelry.
GRACE: OK. So what I`m asking about is -- well, first of all, you said it was just bones, but now I`m hearing there were pajamas and jewelry, as well.
CROTEAU: With the first one, yes. With Betzaida Montalvo, she was found with pajamas, actually.
GRACE: She was still wearing her pajamas and still had on jewelry?
CROTEAU: Well, they found the pajamas and the jewelry around the scene.
GRACE: OK, so may or may not have been wearing them. And, Scott, regarding the -- it`s very difficult for us to be talking about remains then we actually see the young lady who was killed. Scott, the second body, as Leslie Eisenberg pointed out, was it also skeletonized?
CROTEAU: It was, along with the third body that was found in March of 2004, about a mile-and-a-quarter away in a town called Hudson.
GRACE: Well, you kind of threw a monkey wrench at me when you mentioned yet the third body. Go ahead and explain to me about that one.
CROTEAU: Well, the third body had the same kind of background as Carmen and Betsy. Those were the first two found in Marlboro, had a background in prostitution and drug use. She was also found -- she was found right on the side of the road.
GRACE: You know what? You know what? Why is it when we find a dead man, Catherine Burton, psychologist, we don`t go, "Yes, he embezzled from his bank in 1984 and he was a rotten husband." Why do you always -- why does everybody always say that she was a hooker? Does that make a difference if she`s still dead?
BURTON: No, it doesn`t make a difference. She is a person. She`s a human being. And she had a lot of problems and a problematic family history. And I think sometimes people discount her and people like this because they don`t seem important. They don`t bring that much...
GRACE: You know what, Catherine? You are so right. And I remember a murder case very similar to this I prosecuted. The victim still remains a Jane Doe. Nobody really cared.
To Renee Rockwell, you know, two ways to look at it, Renee, as a trial lawyer. One, you do -- less people care. It`s just like that. They discount them as if these women don`t matter. And the problem with that is you`re less likely to crack the case. On the other hand, as Scott Croteau pointed out, with similar backgrounds that also narrows down who may be the perpetrator.
ROCKWELL: It does, Nancy, but here`s the situation. It`s not that people don`t care about a prostitute. She`s still a victim. Forensic- wise, she may have more than one sperm donor for DNA purposes.
GRACE: Well, that doesn`t even matter here though, Renee, because these were skeletonized. We don`t have any soft tissue, no sperm, nothing.
ROCKWELL: But just in general with prostitutes, Nancy, like you said, they`re still victims. People do still have families. They`re dead. It just makes it complicated when you have more than one sperm donor in a situation with a prostitute.
GRACE: Yes, between these three women -- these three, not counting the other seven -- 10 children left behind to be raised without a mother. And speaking of forensic evidence, Scott Croteau, very interesting, while all the fleshy tissue on the bodies may be gone due to skeletonization, what about on those pajamas? Do we know if they were processed with sperm, fiber hair, anything?
CROTEAU: All I was told by the prosecution is that -- well, by investigators -- that no DNA was found. That`s what we were told.
GRACE: Yes. We`ll be right back with Scott Croteau from the "Worcester Telegram and Gazette."
Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Marvin O`Brien Pierre, wanted in connection with a 2005 Houston murder of 27-year-old Kofi Appiah.
Pierre, 29, 5`6", 190 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have information on Pierre, call Houston crime-stoppers, 713-222-8477.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, next week, live coverage of a now 16-year-old New Mexico young man on trial for the shooting deaths of his father, stepmother and sister, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Please stay with us tonight as we stop to remember. We remember Lance Corporal Jeremy Ailes, just 22, an American hero.
GRACE: Is there a serial killer stalking women and girls in Massachusetts? Ten-year-old Holly Piirainen now gone since 1993.
Joining us now, her aunt, Karen Jolin. Karen, thank you for being with us. When you hear about all these unsolved murders, these missing people kidnapped in your home state, your home area, does it make you lose hope that Holly`s case will ever be solved?
KAREN JOLIN, HOLLY PIIRAINEN`S AUNT AND GODMOTHER: I feel that a lot of these cases are maybe pushed aside, and our family has definitely pushed to keep in touch with the investigative team, the state police, to inform them of information that we`ve received, passing it on to them.
And it gives me hope that they are open to continuing to investigate this crime and other unsolveds in the state. But, as I said, it is only because I feel that our family has pushed to have this continue to be looked at.
GRACE: Holly, we are showing you video of her right now, just a little angel.
You know, to John Kelly with S.T.A.L.K., Incorporated, how many women -- Elizabeth, show me that graph of the seven -- how many women and girls, murders, will it take before Massachusetts begins to solve these crimes? And do you believe there is a serial killer?
KELLY: Well, there`s no question about it. There`s at least one serial killer up there. I mean, the prostitute murders of Betzaida, and Dinelia Torres, and Carmen Rudy, and I will even add in Wendy Morello, all pretty much underline that fact that there a serial killer active up there.
The question is, how many other violent sexual offenders do we have up there that are acting out that are murderers and maybe not serial killers? They`re going to have to put a lot of effort into it.
GRACE: Well, that goes without saying.
I want to thank you and all of my guests, especially our victims` families tonight, but our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us and our legal stories into your homes.
A special goodnight tonight from the New York control room. Good night, everybody!
And a special goodnight from friends of the show here all the way from Finland, Pastor Tom Rukala (ph), his wife, Linda (ph). Thank you for being with us.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight and for this week. See you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.