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Nancy Grace
Joran Van Der Sloot Speaks Out
Aired February 23, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Aruba. In the case of an 18-year-old American girl, Natalee Holloway, state`s chief suspect, judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, the last person seen with the Alabama girl the night she disappeared -- well, he travels to New York and speaks out on national television, trying to explain his best, explain to the world why he lied about Natalee`s disappearance and more. And also tonight, we put Van Der Sloot`s every word under a microscope.
Then, an Indiana state trooper on trial for the triple murders of his own family, as his co-defendant goes down with a sentence of 225 years behind bars. What does Lady Justice have in store for David Camm?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news in the Indiana family triple murder trial of state trooper David Camm. His co-defendant gets 225 years for his role in the murders, but now a jury must decide whether the state trooper helped kill his own wife and two children. At the center of the trial, blood spatter marks.
And breaking news tonight in the Natalee Holloway missing girl mystery. Chief suspect, Aruban judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, speaks out, telling yet another version of the night the 18-year-old Alabama beauty vanished off the island of Aruba. And he does it on national TV!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: I knew her for one night. I should have just stayed home and this wouldn`t have happened to me.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: When Joran tells one lie, more evolve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have sex with her that night?
VAN DER SLOOT: That`s -- first of all, that`s none of your business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did anything else happen that night?
VAN DER SLOOT: No. Well, yes.
TWITTY: Joran Van Der Sloot has admitted to having sex with my daughter in one of his statements. We do know that.
VAN DER SLOOT: She grabbed my hand and took me with her for me to take jelly shots off her. When her parents showed up at my door with her picture, I didn`t even know who Natalee Holloway was. I didn`t even know her name.
TWITTY: The Aruban government has audio and videotape of these confessions coming from Joran Van Der Sloot.
VAN DER SLOOT: I was at the wrong place at the wrong time, maybe even with the wrong people. And I just hope that the truth comes out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, yes, he did. He said wrong place, wrong time. Now, have you ever heard that excuse before? Before we make any snap judgments, let`s take a look at Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son`s, most recent version of what happened the night he claims he have left a defenseless 18- year-old girl alone on a beach in another country at 3:00 AM. Roll it, Rosie (ph)!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, ABC NEWS "PRIMETIME": Did it seem like the wrong thing to do, leaving a girl on the beach like that?
VAN DER SLOOT: At that moment in time, for me it wasn`t the wrong thing. I mean, it`s not something a real man would do. It`s not normal. It`s not right at all.
CUOMO: But you did it.
VAN DER SLOOT: Yes.
CUOMO: When you heard that a girl had gone missing on the beach, what did you think?
VAN DER SLOOT: Well, the first thing that popped into my head was (DELETED) what if something happened to her? What if she went swimming? I was thinking, after everything she told me, she probably might have gone back to her hotel, hooked up with someone else and wanted to stay another day on the island.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And that`s not all. Joran Van der Sloot, the judge`s son, last one seen with Natalee Holloway, her parents broken-hearted over her disappearance.
Straight out to Beth Twitty, Natalee`s mother. We`ll show you more of that interview in just a moment. Beth, what do you make of Joran Van Der Sloot speaking so freely through a -- for a network television, but yet when you were there, trying to get him to talk to you, trying to get him to come search for Natalee the morning after, instead, he and his dad, the judge, had a poolside summit with a bunch of defense lawyers.
TWITTY: Oh, exactly, Nancy. And one thing that is so frustrating to us and -- there were so many times where Joran would just simply place his fingers in his ears because he was not going to answer anymore questions with the interrogators. I mean, he merely toyed with them over the summer. I mean, it`s just -- it`s so not true that Joran was interrogated on a daily basis over and over again. I mean, he -- you know, he gave the statements early on, but from then on, I mean, he was just advised either not to talk or, you know, continue to change his story because in Aruba, it`s in your best interest just to continue lying. I think the only thing that a judge would do is maybe frown upon the lies.
GRACE: To Nicole Deborde, defense attorney joining us tonight. Why is it that he refused to return to Aruba to speak to police about Natalee`s disappearance, but he will gab for hours to the network TVs?
NICOLE DEBORDE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think talking to the networks about his case is probably a mistake on his part. But I think that one thing that we can all say that he is guilty of is bad judgment. And that is a completely different thing from being guilty of a murder or being guilty of a crime. And he`s an 18-year-old kid who`s responding to pressure in the ways that an 18-year-old kid will respond to pressure. Mistake, yes. Does it mean he`s guilty of a crime? It really doesn`t.
GRACE: Beth Twitty, response?
TWITTY: You know, why would Joran have fabricated stories so early, when we appeared on the island? And you know, Nancy, not only did he make up the story about how he dropped Natalee off at the Holiday Inn, but just think of all the orchestration that took place for him to come up with the two security guards. Joran Van Der Sloot wouldn`t have known Mickey John and Abraham Jones. That had to have come from his father, someone in the police department. Someone had to know those two men had, you know, some discrepancies in their past or some issues in order to -- for Joran to implicate them in Natalee`s disappearance. I mean...
GRACE: Well, what`s interesting to me -- well, everything you`re saying is interesting to me. But as a trial lawyer, Beth, what sticks out is you took a -- you managed to get yourself on a private plane and get down to Aruba pronto. At that time, Joran Van Der Sloot would hardly speak to you, but yet he had already created what we now know for a fact to be a lie by his own words, specifically blaming the two minority security guards, that were immediately thrown behind bars. They had never even met Natalee Holloway, yet they languished behind bars -- I had their moms on this show, crying for their release. Joran Van Der Sloot stood by and let them be falsely imprisoned, saying that he had seen them with her the night she went missing.
Not only that, tonight we learn from this new interview he has given to network news that he claims he left with Satish Kalpoe. Kalpoe says, No way. Right, Eric?
ERIC MARRAPODI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. You know, I had the chance to speak with Satish and Deepak Kalpoe`s attorney, Elgin Zeptofeld (ph), yesterday, and he says, you know, that`s just not the case, that Satish -- his attorneys are saying he did not pick up Joran Van Der Sloot after they dropped him off right there at the Marriott beach, near those fishermen`s huts, which, of course, would be the third version of Joran Van Der Sloot`s story to police.
GRACE: OK. So now we see the three young men beginning to splinter in their stories. OK, there`s new sound. There`s a new interview from Joran Van Der Sloot, who speaks so freely to a camera but refuses to speak to police. Let`s take a listen to more of his most recent version of Natalee`s disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: How do you think you`ve been portrayed in all this?
VAN DER SLOOT: I think I`ve been portrayed unfairly. I`ve been portrayed as a murderer and a rapist and everything that I`m not.
BO DIETL, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: The father is served about 1:00 o`clock on Thursday, in the hotel lobby, which you`ll see this videotape that I have here of him being served in the hotel lobby with his family. The next thing you`ll see is also on the plane. These are pictures of Joran being served by our operative on the plane, upon the plane landing at Kennedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Eric, our producer, who has spent so many weeks down in Aruba investigating this case. Eric, where did they stay here in New York City?
MARRAPODI: Nancy, they were staying at a hotel on the Upper West Side. It`s called the Lucerne. It`s a hotel that ABC News frequently puts up their guests when they bring them into town to do an interview..
GRACE: What was the name of it?
MARRAPODI: The Lucerne is the name of the hotel.
GRACE: Pretty, pretty posh. All right. While the mom and dad of Natalee Holloway are combing the countryside, begging for help, they`re bunked up at a five-star hotel. OK. No comment.
Let`s take a look, Rosie, if you could, the last video that we know of showing Natalee alive. We have obtained that tonight. This is Natalee Holloway at a local casino, spotted with Joran Van Der Sloot. Rosie, do you have that for me? All righty.
Now, what`s so significant about this video is that it forces Joran Van Der Sloot to admit he was with her the night she went missing. This is -- it`s grainy, but there you see Joran Van Der Sloot at the casino where Natalee was that very night. They are actually shot together. There you go. There`s Natalee with her little friends from Mountain Brook High School, senior trip, and Joran Van Der Sloot. Take a look in the circle.
Now, that beautiful footage -- now he is stuck. If it weren`t for that footage, Beth Twitty, he could have come up with a whole different scenario of what happened that night, but there is that footage that nails him in that location, and there may be footage from Carlos and Charlie`s, but there are many, many witnesses that saw him leave with Natalee Holloway`s from Carlos and Charlie`s. So he`s got to come up with a story that fits this video footage.
TWITTY: Oh, exactly. And I think that Joran had always been -- he`d always admitted that he left Carlos and Charlie`s with Natalee.
GRACE: Yes.
TWITTY: He had to do that. But what he was vague about, extremely vague about, Nancy, was having seen Natalee before, as he -- as we can tell he has in the Excelsior casino. He`s been very vague about that.
GRACE: Let`s take a look, Rosie, at more of his most recent version. Everyone, tonight, we are talking about the unsolved mystery surrounding Natalee Holloway, an 18-year-old American girl who went missing on her high school senior trip. Her plan? To devote herself to helping other people, to become a physician. She had the grades to do it. She never came home.
Here`s more of what the judge`s son had to say. "My intention" -- and he makes no bones about it -- "was to take Natalee to my house and have sex with her. I asked her if she wanted to have sex. She said she was fine with it. I didn`t have a condom with me in my wallet, and I won`t have sex without a condom." Now, there`s a principled guy. "I won`t have sex without a condom."
Rosie, let`s see what else Joran Van Der Sloot had to say about that night. "I lied, yes. I lied because I was scared. I had a girlfriend at the time. I didn`t want my dad to think bad of me. I didn`t want my friends of think bad of me."
Let`s see the rest, Rosie. Long story short, he was so worried about what other people thought, he didn`t come join the search to find Natalee the next morning. "I didn`t want anyone to know I left her at the beach. I left them on the beach. I walked to the car. We got in the car, and right then, there, I couldn`t go back because we were going home."
He`s talking about his shoes, which many people think, why would a guy suddenly leave a girl alone on a beach and leave without his shoes?
Let`s see the next one, Rosie. Van Der Sloot says, "There`s absolutely no reason to believe me." "Would you believe you?" Van Der Sloot, "I probably would not believe myself, no."
To Beth Twitty. Response?
TWITTY: Oh, Nancy, it`s hard to even respond to something like that. I mean, you know, I`m just glad that he is coming out and speaking on camera because I heard a clip that you -- a sound bite earlier, and he does -- when he tells one lie, more evolve. And it just is mind-boggling how we are all just witnessing this from Joran.
GRACE: What do you find to be the most disturbing aspect of his new version?
TWITTY: Well, I think the most disturbing aspect would be where now he is implicating Satish that came and picked him up. And in several of his statements an early on, he was saying that Deepak had picked him up from the fisherman`s hut. But you know, Nancy, the bottom line is that didn`t happen. The gardener that came forward in August was a very credible witness, and he had all three suspects nailed at the critical time by the pond. That`s the bottom line on how all those three boys were together.
GRACE: What do you make of the fact that they are now splitting ranks, that they are splitting ranks as to who picked Joran Van Der Sloot up that night?
TWITTY: Well, I mean, I think that could probably be helpful in forcing some type of answers because it sounds like to me there`s kind of some dissension among these three suspects. And you know, as they were doing early on, they were beginning to implicate each other as -- you know, as -- I think that that`s a sign that maybe it will force some more answers coming from them.
GRACE: Beth Twitty, you have seen police files that we have not seen. His statements that he made at the time to police are very different than what he is telling network news tonight.
TWITTY: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, they are. I mean...
GRACE: Well, for instance, take a listen to this, Beth. Let`s get that back up, Rosie, if you could.
Do you recall telling me that Joran Van Der Sloot gave a perfect and accurate description of Natalee`s underwear? (INAUDIBLE) gave that to police, Beth?
TWITTY: Oh, I`m sorry. Yes, Nancy. Yes, he did. He was very graphic. You know, the words that he used to describe -- I mean, he was, you know, very graphically detailed, sexually explicit, yes.
GRACE: So how is it that now he`s saying all they did on the beach was cuddle, that she wanted to have sex and he refused her?
TWITTY: Well, Nancy, it`s just simply untrue. I mean, the statements were given early on. They`re very, very detailed, I mean very detailed. So he was forthcoming even with witnesses the first night, when we arrived on the island. He was, again, very graphic in his description of the sexual assaults he committed against Natalee.
GRACE: And of course, to David Oblon, defense attorney. Every time he gives another televised statement -- I believe this is his fourth version that he`s given to TV, much less to police and others -- you know the prosecution must just be licking their chops.
DAVID OBLON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not sure who`s advising this guy. Whoever It is, he should be hanging up his briefcase because, you`re correct, every time that there`s an inconsistent statement, that creates more and more suspicion. But suspicion does not make a murderer.
GRACE: True. True. You always have to have that little disclaimer, don`t you, David.
OK, we`ll all be right back, but to tonight`s "Case Alert." The South Dakota senate passes a bill banning abortion almost entirely. Doctors now facing serious prison time for performing abortions unless the mother`s life is in danger. South Dakota will now allow no exceptions for cases of rape or incest. The bill is designed to start the fight to overturn Roe v. Wade. It now heads to the South Dakota house.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIETL: ... series of pictures you`re going to see now are photos of Joran being served as he walked out of immigration. Now, when the plane arrived, there was about a two-hour delay before he came out. The INS, the immigration services, had grabbed him. He must have been on some kind of watch list. Eventually, the released him to come out.
As the doors opened, this young man, I didn`t know who he was, runs over to him and throws a coat over his head. And at this time, I went up to him and I told him, Look, I am going to serve you with official court documents, a summons and complaint. This is official service. Of course, in serving the summons and complaint, you have to put the papers on them. If they don`t want to take them, you touch them. I ended up putting the papers right into his jacket, at which time I followed Joran, and he took the papers out, crumpled them up and threw them on the ground. And I continued to follow him, as you can see in these pictures, into a taxicab, at which he went and took off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Beth, you had just -- we were talking about the fact that Joran Van Der Sloot -- he swears now there was no sex between him and Natalee -- gave a very detailed description of Natalee`s underwear, the embroidery on it and all that. But you just revealed a new fact to me I didn`t know.
TWITTY: Not only did he know specific details about her underclothing, but also just a physical description of her, so...
GRACE: Without her clothes on.
TWITTY: Yes.
GRACE: I put it as gently as I possibly can.
TWITTY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, Joran Van Der Sloot suddenly has a case of the gab. He spoke for hours to one of the networks. They`ll be airing that tonight.
Straight out to Beth Twitty. Beth, what do you find when you`re hearing his new statements, the fact that he`s so willingly speaking and cooperating with networks -- that there are book deals floating around, yet Natalee is still missing. And what he is telling the TV cameras is a far cry from what he told police.
TWITTY: Well, Nancy, it looks like to me Joran`s ready maybe to sit down in New York and answer to some questions from -- sit through some depositions. Looks like he`s ready to talk. So maybe he needs to do it under oath.
GRACE: To Scott Balber. He`s a civil attorney for the Holloway- Twitty family. Scott, what do you want to gain, other than having all these parties, Joran Van Der Sloot and his judge father, under sworn oath in a deposition? What do you hope to gain out of the civil suit? What do you want to learn.
SCOTT BALBER, CIVIL ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE`S FAMILY: Well, quite frankly, we want to learn what happened that night, what became of Natalee, and we want an opportunity to get some answers.
GRACE: To Eric Marrapodi. Eric, how does this ABC interview compare to what he has said in the past? Compare and contrast, Eric.
MARRAPODI: Yes. You know, when we look at Joran`s interviews, he`s done four television interviews. The first was with an Aruban television station, a program called "Exclusivo." The second, of course, was the ambush interview style that "A Current Affair" did with him there in Holland. And also, last weekend while he was in town, he did an interview with a Dutch program called "Nova," in addition to this "Primetime" interview. Something that he left out in the "Nova" interview was this issue about the sex and not having a condom, an interesting omission for those of us who`ve watched this case for so long.
GRACE: Wouldn`t you say it`s a pretty big point?
MARRAPODI: It`s a very interesting point. Another person who`s watching this tonight is going to be Karin Janssen. We spoke with her tonight. She`ll be watching this interview, as well.
GRACE: The prosecutor.
MARRAPODI: That`s right, the lead prosecutor on this case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TWITTY: I still remain optimistic. I know it`s hard to do it, but what other hope do we have but to rely on the Aruban criminal justice system? And we just hope that it will prevail. We hope that Aruba will show us they do have enforceable laws, such as perjury and obstruction of justice and rape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To criminal profiler Pat Brown. Why is it so significant that Joran Van Der Sloot cannot shut up?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, a lot of people can`t shut up when they`re trying to make up a story that they`re trying to convince you with. This is a rather psychopathic behavior. And I can`t call him a psychopath, but I can say he is exhibiting psychopathic behaviors, one of arrogance that, I can pull this wool over everybody`s eyes, one of blaming the victim, and he`s always blaming Natalee. Hey, here again we have, She wanted sex, I didn`t. That`s a new one added in her. And...
GRACE: Well, actually, he was saying she wanted unprotected sex and I didn`t.
BROWN: Even worse.
GRACE: I`m such a great guy. To Eric...
BROWN: Exactly.
GRACE: ... Marrapodi. Eric, you were telling us about four televised interviews. What were you saying about the major inconsistencies between them?
MARRAPODI: You know, the major inconsistencies that I think prosecutors are going to be looking at tonight are the inconsistencies between what he said to police in interrogation rooms and what he said on these programs. A big one we can point out tonight to you is, of course, who picked him up when he left the beach? Did he walk home? Was it Deepak that picked him up? Was it Satish? Now in this interview, he`s saying it was Satish who picked him up from the nearby fishermen`s huts and took him back to his place at home -- a big discrepancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BO DIETL, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Why don`t you come clean and tell us where you buried her body?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, LAST SEEN WITH NATALEE HOLLOWAY: ... back, I would have made sure she got back to her hotel safely, but I can`t change that now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The judge`s son there in Aruba, Joran Van Der Sloot, was the last person seen with Natalee Holloway, OK? He is stuck with the fact that he is video with her at a casino. He is stuck with the fact that her whole high school senior class saw him leaving with her, leaving Carlos and Charlie`s. He is now stuck with not one, not two, not three, but four televised interviews. Ouch. That`s got to hurt the defense. Owie.
To Beth Twitty, this is Natalee`s mother joining us tonight, what, if anything, do you think that Aruban prosecutors will do with his most latest statement?
TWITTY: Well, I hope that they see that now Joran has not only changed the pickup from being Deepak to Satish. And they need to go back, Nancy, go back to August, go back when the gardener`s statement was given before the judge of instruction, sworn testimony, the defense, the prosecutor, Deepak, Satish, and Joran.
And what happened was his statement was credible and Deepak panicked. He panicked that very day, made a phone call to a girl looking for an alibi. This young woman became very upset and concerned, made a phone call to the FBI. She did not want to be involved in it.
They need to go back. There were numerous times when their alibis were destroyed repeatedly.
GRACE: What do you make of his statement, his most recent statement that, OK, she wanted to have sex with him. He didn`t want to have unprotected sex because he`s so responsible. He takes her to a beach. He leaves her there alone around 3:00 a.m. and then makes off without his shoes.
Beth, why did he leave his shoes behind?
TWITTY: You know, that`s been a question all along, Nancy. And I really couldn`t figure out if there was one tennis shoe that he left behind or if it were both.
But I think what I was hearing from one of your panel of guests tonight -- and she`s so right -- I mean, as if Joran can only place the blame on Natalee for everything that has transpired. Every phase of it has been due to her fault. And it has to be some type of sociopathic or psychopathic behavior that he just places everything on Natalee.
GRACE: Now, Joran Van Der Sloot has given yet another statement, everyone. Huge mystery. The world is watching the tiny island of Aruba. What, if anything, will they do next? Well, here`s yet another version on a silver platter. Take a listen to Joran Van Der Sloot. This is volume four.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did it seem like a wrong thing to do, leaving a girl on the beach like that?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, LAST SEEN WITH NATALEE HOLLOWAY: At that moment in time, for me it wasn`t the wrong thing. But, I mean, it`s not something a real man would do. It`s not normal. It`s not right at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you did it?
VAN DER SLOOT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have sex with her that night?
VAN DER SLOOT: First of all, that`s none of your business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just a question.
VAN DER SLOOT: Yes. But it`s absolutely none of your business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what -- I mean, did anything else happen that night?
VAN DER SLOOT: No. Well, yes, I kissed with her. But neither me, Deepak, or Satish ever had sex with her, and no one ever said otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So, Beth Twitty, back to the original statement, as you keep going, you saw those police statements. You saw that he described the embroidery on her underwear, that he described her body without clothing on it. So now how can he say this?
TWITTY: I don`t know, Nancy. For the life of me, I don`t know. But those statements were there. I hope they`re still there. And something else that I noticed when he was with the Dutch -- I`m sorry, with Jerry Wagsstaff on that "Current Affair" interview, he also states how Natalee was drunk, that he was drinking, too, and that he says that the Aruban authorities tried to pin it on him as a rape case, but he says it was totally consensual. I mean, you know, Natalee was not able to choose her will that night.
GRACE: Let`s compare what Joran Van Der Sloot is saying now to what he said before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAN DER SLOOT: I knew her for one night. I feel horrible that I even went out that night without my father knowing. I should have just stayed home and this wouldn`t have happened to me. It would have happened to another person.
I just try to look at it that I was at the wrong place at the wrong time, maybe even with the wrong people. And I just hope that the truth comes out, that there just comes some clarity in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But do you understand -- I mean, how could a girl just disappear?
VAN DER SLOOT: I don`t know. I think that`s the million dollar question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you do now?
VAN DER SLOOT: I would have just stayed home that night. I wouldn`t even have gone out. It was Natalee who asked me to go out with her. It was her that asked me to come to the club. It was her that was yelling at me to go dance with her, and I said -- and I went to go drink something with my friends.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you that irresistible? I mean, is that what...
VAN DER SLOOT: No, that`s absolutely not what it`s about. I don`t know. When her parents showed up at my door with her picture, I didn`t even know who Natalee Holloway was. I didn`t even know her name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To forensic psychiatrist Dr. Dave Davis, Dr. Davis, just out of curiosity, how did you get to the set tonight?
DR. DAVE DAVIS, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Came in a car.
GRACE: Came in a car. Did you drive?
DAVIS: No, I came with a chauffeur.
GRACE: Now, if I asked you that in an hour and you told me that you hitchhiked to the set or you took MARTA -- you`re in Atlanta, right -- what do you make of the fact that Joran Van Der Sloot is now changing his story about how he got away from Natalee that night? That, first of all, he said Satish Kalpoe came and got him in a car, and now Satish Kalpoe says, "No, no, no, no, no, I didn`t."
DAVIS: Well, circumstantial evidence is not what it always might appear to be. These people were under the influence of alcohol. Who knows what will happen? And I certainly don`t think he`s a psychopath just because he gives a different version of what happened. He`s a young man who was under tremendous pressure at the time, so, you know, he`s being interviewed by the police.
GRACE: You`re kidding me. Wait, wait, wait. He can`t even tell the truth about how he got home?
DAVIS: If he were a psychopath -- you know, he`s admitted that he did some things wrong, that he made a mistake by leaving her there on the beach. And I certainly don`t think that it`s bad for him to have not wanted to have sex with somebody that he didn`t know very well without a condom. That`s good medical...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, let me ask you to review his statement. Because in his statement, he states he was an island lothario that made it his business to go to bars and casinos every night, pick up a new woman, have sex with her, and then, in his own words, say goodbye. So I don`t know how honorable.
He`s not exactly a knight in training. I`m hearing in my ear Jossy Mansur is now joining us. He is the managing director and editor of "Diario" magazine.
Jossy Mansur, can Aruban prosecutors actually use these interviews against Joran Van Der Sloot?
JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": Of course they can.
GRACE: How?
MANSUR: Because they`re statements made by a suspect that is still a suspect for quite some time to come. And I`ve seen cases in Aruba where any audio or videotaped interviews (INAUDIBLE) have been used very successfully in the courts of law in Aruba.
GRACE: Now, let me ask you this -- and this could close the book on any prosecution of Joran Van Der Sloot or his father -- have they asked for a speedy trial?
MANSUR: They have not asked for a speedy trial. Their lawyers have asked for a dismissal of Joran as a suspect now, and not keep him according to the length that the law states that he should be kept as a suspect, which is two years.
GRACE: To Beth Twitty -- this is Natalee`s mother joining us tonight -- Beth, I know that you have filed a civil lawsuit. Now, most people wait for the criminal case to go forward, then they use all that evidence in their civil lawsuit. Why a civil suit?
TWITTY: You know, Nancy, this was truly a brilliant move on John`s part. And, you know, really, this is really a movement towards, you know, getting some answers, getting him here on U.S. soil, hopefully getting to the bottom of this.
And, you know, as far as the family`s concerned, Nancy, you know, John Kelly`s the first man that`s come in the investigation that`s actually been able to produce some results and, you know, is dedicated to getting to the bottom of it.
GRACE: And you`re referring to John Quillian Kelly, right?
TWITTY: Yes.
GRACE: Everyone, helping Ms. Twitty on the case is John Q. Kelly, who won the O.J. Simpson civil lawsuit to the tune of $33 million.
You know, I find it very, very suggestive, Pat Brown, that he can`t even keep his story straight about how he got home that night.
BROWN: Oh, absolutely. The story is changing over and over, had nothing to do with him being an innocent young man. That`s a liar.
And let me tell you, though, in the stories he tells, there is truth in there, if you really listen. He said three true things. I wish I hadn`t gone out that night. I wish I had brought her home safely. And a real man wouldn`t have done what I did. That`s the truth.
GRACE: To our producer that has researched and investigated the case down in Aruba, Eric Marrapodi, Eric, do Van Der Sloot`s current account match up with the Kalpoe brothers?
MARRAPODI: No, it doesn`t. And the point that it does not match up is on how Joran got home. Satish Kalpoe, through his attorneys, has told us, "Hey, look, I didn`t take the guy home."
GRACE: What about the reward?
MARRAPODI: It`s important to remind our viewers around the world, Nancy, especially those watching in Aruba, that this is, of course, an open case. A $250,000 reward for information leading to Natalee Holloway`s whereabouts; $1 million for her safe return.
GRACE: Final thought tonight, before we take you to yet another case, to Beth Twitty, Natalee`s mother -- Beth?
TWITTY: Well, Nancy, you know, I really feel as if something the family can hang onto now is, you know, John Kelly getting to -- you know, having more successes than this. And I know he`s enlisted the help of Scott Balber and Jerome Katz (ph) of Chadbourne & Park. So I`m looking forward to some successes there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES BONEY, CONVICTED IN MURDER CASE: It`s commanded by my heavenly father that I respect and forgive all of my enemies. There`s a lot of people that have wanted the worst for me in this case. I forgive them right now, the confidential informers, the snitches, the jailhouse romance people.
I`m a little emotional right now, but I can talk about those things. And I just want to say thanks for all that you have done, for those of you who are with me. And I will be back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why`d you ask for the maximum...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You never feel good about someone being sentenced to that long of a sentence, but we definitely feel like that we did the right thing. And I`m at peace with myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, I`m glad to hear codefendant Charles Boney has found God now. That`s great. Too bad he didn`t find God before he murdered three people!
Straight out to investigative reporter Pat Lalama. Pat, bring us up to date on the Camm case.
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: They love those TV cameras, don`t they? They just talk and talk when the TV cameras are rolling.
Well, here`s what`s happening. He was just given a long, long sentence involving these murders. Here`s what happened.
September 28, 2000, a gentleman by the name of David Camm comes home from a basketball game with buddies. He screams and yells to his neighbors, and friends, and family next door, down the street, that his family is dead in the garage. He is down on the ground with his son trying to resuscitate him.
Well, push comes to shove. He gets charged with murders and a count of conspiracy. And that was overturned, because there was some evidence brought up in the case that the judge didn`t think fit. His buddy, Mr. Boney...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You mean the 15 affairs he had during the 11-year marriage?
LALAMA: Yes. How about that, Nancy? You know, that`s...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s what we know of.
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: I mean, listen, the judge says that`s...
GRACE: How did the man have time to eat dinner?
LALAMA: I know. And the judge says that`s irrelevant? Excuse me. If I want to get rid of my wife, it might be because I`m busy with so many other women. But anyway...
GRACE: That`s all that motive evidence.
LALAMA: Exactly. So then back to Mr. Boney, as he likes to be called, he is convicted...
GRACE: Yes, please give it the proper French pronunciation.
LALAMA: It is Boney, Nancy, particularly...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s going to come in handy when he`s in isolation.
LALAMA: Absolutely, especially if there`s a TV camera around somewhere.
Anyway, what the case boils down to is the following, Nancy: It`s going to be a battle of the expert witnesses. It`s about blood, and it`s about residue.
There is blood on David Camm`s t-shirt. There is residue on his t- shirt. Now, the prosecution will say that the kind of blood that it is...
GRACE: Right.
LALAMA: ... it`s blood that was splattered and that the residue was from, you know, loading the weapon. The defense says, "Baloney." He was in his car trying to get his babies out to save them. And that`s what it boils down to.
GRACE: Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. Kobi, explain to us the difference between a spatter mark and a transfer.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, in this particular case, we`re talking about back spatter, which occurs -- when the bullet hits the victim, the impact is so great, the energy exchange is so great that blood is spattered both forward and backward.
And that spatter is in the form of a mist. The particles are less than a millimeter, very tiny particles, and they don`t travel very far. And that is what we are thinking may be on the t-shirt.
The other side, of course, is saying that this is simply a contact pattern, that these eight little droplets and the two tissue samples are on the t-short, because as Mr. Camm was reaching over for Bradley, he touched the hair of Jill. And believe me, they look completely different.
GRACE: But touching the hair of someone who even had blood on it would not be a spatter mark.
KOBILINSKY: That`s exactly right. It would be more of a fibrous pattern. So without seeing it myself, it`s hard to comment, but...
GRACE: Right.
KOBILINSKY: ... there`s a big difference between contact and back spatter.
GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, theory?
BROWN: Oh, yes. The thing wrong with this whole thing is about Camm reaching in and taking his son out. He said he did that and ignored his wife and child, the daughter, because he knew they were dead. But his son was still warm.
Well, excuse me, but if that son died, as the autopsy said, within one or two minutes of the other two, he`s been dead for two hours. He`s stiff and he`s cold, so why is he thinking he`s alive?
And here`s the problem, I think, really happened. I think he moved that child at the time of the crime and he was wearing, over his shirt and shorts, he was wearing a sweat suit, which is why we have a back spatter that only got a little edge of the shirt. Because after that, he...
GRACE: The very bottom of the shirt, right.
BROWN: Exactly. Because when he removed his son from the car, he had to get blood on him from his son. And that had to go somewhere, so it had to go on the front, which would be -- exactly -- probably on a sweat suit that he took off and it went away with the gun.
GRACE: Right.
BROWN: Then, when he returned later, think about this. Later, he came and said he did CPR. And that makes no sense at all, because when he arrived at that place, if he took the child out of the car, he couldn`t have done CPR then.
GRACE: Very quickly to Lisa Kozarovich with "The New Albany Tribune," Lisa, what happened in court today?
LISA KOZAROVICH, "NEW TRIBUNE," COVERING STORY: Well, today we heard more about basketball. In fact, between today and yesterday, we`ve heard from seven of the 11 alibi witnesses who say that they were at the gym with David Camm at the time the murders were supposedly committed.
Of course, the prosecution wants to know how they could have been paying as close of attention not to know that he could have left the gym for a few moments, long enough, they say maybe 20 minutes, to go home, kill his family, and return. These witnesses say they saw him on the sidelines when he sat out during one game.
GRACE: So he sat out a full game right, Lisa?
KOZAROVICH: Yes. Most of the witnesses agree he sat out one full game.
GRACE: With us, Lisa Kozarovich with "The New Albany Tribune." We`ll all be right back.
Please stay with us, everyone, as we stop to remember Army Reservist Specialist Brandon Michael Read of Greenville, Tennessee. He died in Western Iraq an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) got the maximum penalty. Basically, you know, if he came forward during the first trial and said something then, I would have went for the minimum (INAUDIBLE) he didn`t kill anybody, I don`t think. David Camm murdered these three people, and that`s the guy I`m going to get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If it was not the husband, a former Indiana state trooper, who killed his family, then really who was it? Why would the codefendant, Charles Boney, who was sentenced to 225 years today, kill three people he didn`t know? No robbery, no rape, no assault, no burglary, no nothing. Shot them in their cars in the garage.
To Nick Stein, the spokesperson for the victim`s family, you were at the sentencing hearing today for Boney. What can you tell us?
NICK STEIN, RENN FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Thanks, Nancy, from one former prosecutor to another, thanks for having me on the show.
GRACE: Thank you, sir.
STEIN: Yes, I was at the sentencing hearing, and it was astounding. Debbie Renn did wonderful on the trial, and she asked Charles Boney -- she looked him right in the face and she said, "You were there, correct?" And he said, "Yes, ma`am." And he was. But his story is, "Yes, I got the gun, and I was there, but I didn`t commit these murders." And this fits in with David Camm...
GRACE: Did he testify at Camm`s trial?
STEIN: His statement was in there. And he acknowledges this, and his attorney acknowledges this.
GRACE: Got you.
STEIN: This helps the conviction for Camm in Warrick County, because now we have a means that Camm could have gotten home in 20 minutes.
GRACE: Right. Nick, hold on one sec.
To David Mosley, Camm`s civil lawyer, you`re hearing Nick Stein. He`s a veteran trial lawyer. Boney sentenced to 200 years-plus today. Why do you believe Camm is innocent?
DAVID MOSLEY, CIVIL ATTORNEY FOR DAVID CAMM: Because 11 standup members of the community say he is, Nancy. I thank you for having me on the show.
GRACE: Well, didn`t they say on cross that they couldn`t verify he was there the whole time?
MOSLEY: No. What they`re saying is that -- you know, they`re playing basketball. This is a small church gym that they`re playing in. It would be reasonable to expect that, if the guy had left, he didn`t have time to leave and commit the crime.
GRACE: How come the jury didn`t find out about his 15 affairs in 11 years of marriage?
MOSLEY: The Indiana court of appeals ruled that that was inappropriate for this case because he wasn`t having an affair at the time.
GRACE: OK. I would like to invite Mr. Mosley and Mr. Stein to join us again. We are in the midst of this trial. It ain`t over yet.
Thank you, gentlemen. I wish I had more time with you, but please join me again.
My biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us and our stories into your home. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. See you here tomorrow night, Friday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
