Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Mesa, Arizona, Police Release Tapes of Calls Made to 911 at the Time of the Shooting Deaths of Five Members of a Family in Their Home in a Gated Community and Also Name a Person of Interest in the Crime.
Aired March 01, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news -- just released, 911 emergency calls reveal in detail the massacre of a family of five, including two children, in their own home, Mesa, Arizona. No suspects. Motive? Still a mystery. Tonight, police release more details. What clues can we learn from the 911 calls just moments before this family lost their lives?
And tonight, a mom-to-be goes missing, Ali Gilmore gone from her Tallahassee, Florida home. We join in the search for Ali.
Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, the search intensifies for 30-year-old Ali Gilmore out of Florida. Tonight, the reward money grows, along with fears for Ali`s safety, this billboard up just hours ago.
But first, breaking news, Mesa, Arizona, just released 911 tapes alert police of gunshots, gunshots fired, screams heard in an exclusive gated community, Mesa, 911 tapes tell the story of the massacre of an entire family of five in their own home! Tonight, police looking for answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thus far in the investigation, we have been able to determine this was not a random homicide. Somebody meant to go in that house and kill those individuals.
911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. We just heard gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it seemed like there was a domestic dispute, and I didn`t hear exactly what she said. And then there were, like, two more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two more gunshots. Three! Another one! Another gunshot!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And another gunshot. It sounds like a -- like a bat hitting something, like a ball.
911 OPERATOR: Because we did get a call, another call from one of your other neighbors, who said that they could hear a woman screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got up to investigate and opened my back door, and I heard the lady screaming. And then that -- then it sounded like a gunshot to me, like a small-caliber gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to continue around the clock, working this case, and we`re doing the best we can to get to the bottom of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out -- we are looking for answers, along with the Mesa police -- to Paul Giblin, reporter with "The East Valley Tribune. " What does it mean that tonight, police are saying that there is an investigative lead? That`s a new, even on me. Is that the same thing as a person of interest?
PAUL GIBLIN, "EAST VALLEY TRIBUNE": I believe that`s the way they use it, as person of interest, same thing as an investigative lead.
GRACE: So what does that mean? Who`s the person of interest -- POI?
GIBLIN: They`re looking at a guy named William Miller. He was employer of three of the people who are slaughtered. He was also a guy who was involved in an arson in a suburb called Scottsdale. At least one of the people who was killed was also involved in that arson, according to police reports.
GRACE: Paul Giblin with us, with "The East Valley Tribune." The arson you`re talking about, the earlier arson -- is it true that that arson was completed with accelerant -- gasoline, to be specific -- poured in the home?
GIBLIN: Yes. There was gasoline was poured on carpets throughout the place. It was poured on a pool table. There were gas cans left inside the house.
GRACE: Well, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, if you don`t know a horse, let`s look at his track record. If he was a sloppy arsonist and he`s connected to this case -- if, if, if -- you can count on a sloppy crime scene.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Week, absolutely. I think -- they`re looking at Miller for a number of reasons. One is, yes, he was connected with the victim, and that would be one of the persons who would want to do something to those victims, who had turned against him. And secondly, he did something else really interesting. He says now somebody shot up his bedroom on the same very night. Oh, my goodness. What a coincidence.
GRACE: What a coincidence!
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He staged one scene. Could he have staged another? That`s a big mistake, if he did that, because you don`t want to connect yourself with the crime of that night. You want to pretend somebody else might have done these people in.
GRACE: Joining us right now from Mesa Police Department, Sgt. Chuck Trapani. Sgt. Trapani, thank you for being with us. Please! Pouring gasoline all over your home, right across the pool table? You think an accelerant dog can`t pick up on that? Accelerant dogs can smell accelerant underneath water, for Pete`s sake!
SGT. CHUCK TRAPANI, PIO, MESA POLICE DEPARTMENT: Nancy, the arson you`re talking about wasn`t a Mesa investigation.
GRACE: Right.
TRAPANI: That occurred in Scottsdale, so I`m not familiar with that case.
GRACE: Sergeant, I`m not asking you about the facts of the case.
TRAPANI: OK.
GRACE: I am telling you that even a dog can go in and smell accelerant! I mean, that`s a pretty messy, sloppy way of burning your house down for the insurance money. At this day and age, 2006, we can go in and determine accelerant even if it`s under water, correct?
TRAPANI: That is correct. But like I said, that`s a Scottsdale investigation. I`m sure they`re looking into that.
GRACE: Quickly, let`s take a listen to the 911 tapes of that evening -- an entire family gone.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Hello? This is 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we just got woke up. There`s a woman sounds like she`s screaming. And my neighbor directly behind me, I could see him come out. And it sounded like either something hitting or a gun, and he ran back in his house. It`s not from him and it`s...
911 OPERATOR: Any idea which direction from your house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s coming -- he actually came out and looked to the east. Like, it`s one of the houses that (INAUDIBLE) on the Barrington, on the outside edge. But there`s definitely some screaming going on. It woke me and my wife up from the sleep, and obviously -- and there it went again.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you hear anything else besides this woman screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. And like I said, this guy come out in his underwear, because we were looking out, trying to figure out the direction because we`re so enclosed here.
911 OPERATOR: You did hear shots, also?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t say that it`s shots, or it`s definitely something going, Bang! Bang! And like I said, some -- definitely, a woman just screaming.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you want to be contacted or just have them go out and check the area?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they need any assistance or anything, I mean, as far as getting an idea of where it was coming from, and also, the neighbor that I seen come out of his house and run back in.
911 OPERATOR: All right, sir. We`ve got officers on the way out there, so they should be out there in just a few minutes for you, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: In this gated community, beautiful homes, expensive lawns, Mercedes Benz in the garage, that didn`t save them from violent crime. Let`s take a look at what we can learn from this 911 call. Back to Sgt. Chuck Trapani. He`s the Mesa Police Department information officer. Sir, again, thank you for being with us.
TRAPANI: Thank you.
GRACE: Now, from what I`m hearing in this 911 call -- I`ve played a million of them for juries before -- clearly, this is not a situation where the family was one by one bound and gagged and then killed because this woman is screaming her head off. This has to be the mom there in the home. What can you tell us about the location of the bodies?
TRAPANI: Nancy, that`s some specific information that only the suspect would know. So at this point, we`re not releasing locations of the bodies, or even how many times the victims were shot. All five of them did have apparent gunshot wounds, but we are not releasing that specific information just yet.
GRACE: Sergeant, is this a random crime? I don`t see it.
TRAPANI: We`re not classifying it as a random crime. We believe that somebody actually entered that home with the purpose to murder this family, and we`re following up on those leads, building our case right now.
GRACE: Sergeant, why do you say that?
TRAPANI: Basically because, first of all, as you mentioned on your show last week, there was no signs of forced entry into the home. So we believe that somebody that the family possibly knew entered the home, and that`s when the murders occurred, early that morning on Tuesday.
GRACE: Sergeant, when you say early in the morning, about what time was it?
TRAPANI: We actually received -- our police officers were dispatched at about 2:41 in the morning on Tuesday.
GRACE: At 2:41 AM.
TRAPANI: Correct.
GRACE: You know, when I heard it was an early morning hour, I thought possibly, you know, around breakfast time. And I was wondering if maybe the dad had gone outside to get the newspaper or left the door unlocked. Absolutely not. This is 2:41 AM.
TRAPANI: Correct. The majority of the residents in that community were sound asleep at night, and they were awoken by the screaming and the gunshots.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. We just heard gunshots.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And how many shots did you hear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there were three.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold on. Hold on.
911 OPERATOR: From which direction?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here, honey, talk to her.
911 OPERATOR: Hi. You heard three gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: From which direction, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the back part of our house.
911 OPERATOR: So from the south of you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was south.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you hear any screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It seemed like there was a domestic dispute, and I didn`t hear exactly what she said. And then there was, like, two more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three! Another one! Another gunshot!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another gunshot. Or it sounds like a bat hitting something, like a ball.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Because we did get a call, another call from one of your other neighbors, who said that they could hear a woman screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: They did not indicate they heard gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounded like gunshots. Sounded like a handgun because I went in my back yard and listened.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t a high-powered rifle or anything like that, but it could have been a bat and a ball.
911 OPERATOR: But you don`t know for sure. All right. We do have the officers on the way. They`re going to be there in just a moment. OK. Can we contact you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: All right. Thank you very much. We`ll be there in just a minute. Can you think of anything else that you heard?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, ma`am, like I said, that woke me up, and I woke up from my sleep. And the back yards are all really -- join. They`re really close. So I just got up to investigate and opened my back door, and I heard the lady screaming. And I heard...
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you hear any male voices at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I heard a pop, one pop. And then that -- then it sounded like a gunshot to me, like a small-caliber gun.
911 OPERATOR: OK. All right. Great. The officers are on their way. They`ll be there in just a moment.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Dead in the home, Steven Duffy, 30, brother Shane Duffy, 18, Tammy Lovell, 32, son Jacob, 10, daughter Cassandra, 15. The family wiped out, police left asking why.
Straight back to Mesa Police Department Sgt. Chuck Trapani. Do you have any idea whether there was one person or more than one person? Didn`t police get there in less than a minute?
TRAPANI: Yes, Nancy. The first officer arrived on scene in right about -- around a minute to the gated community. And it took a few more minutes to actually get to the residence in question. However, we are -- as I mentioned earlier, we are following up on several leads. We`re getting tips in on a regular basis. We have detectives working around the clock. And Nancy, I hope you can understand that this is a very dynamic investigation, and we can`t release too much information right now to maintain the integrity of the investigation.
GRACE: Well, hold on, Sergeant. I`ve got an hour to work with you, to see what I can wheedle out of you.
Very quickly, to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. The fact that this occurred around 3:00 AM in the morning, 2:41 to be exact -- now, as a criminal profiler, no forced entry, 3:00 AM -- what does that tell you, Pat?
BROWN: Well, it does tell me they were targeted and the person knew they would all be home and they`ll all be in that house, in bed, hopefully. Whether he had a key to enter the home or whether he actually was able to knock and got somebody to answer, we don`t know. But he obviously wanted them all corralled there so he could take care of the business once and for all.
GRACE: Let`s go to "Trial 101." It`s a very simple matter to get in audiotapes of 911 calls. They`re incredibly impactful on a jury, whenever this case goes to a jury. And believe you me, with a mass murder, it certainly will.
To David Schwartz, defense attorney. What`s the procedure in your jurisdiction to get an audiotape?
DAVID SCHWARTZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`ve got to put in the audiotape. Generally, they`re always put in. You put -- you put the witness on the stand. You`re able to authenticate the tape and put it into evidence. But you know -- and generally...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- authenticate the tape.
SCHWARTZ: They generally come in all the time. But what I`d to like to know from Sgt. Trapani...
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you. That`s not what I asked you.
SCHWARTZ: I`d like to know something from Sgt. Trapani, Nancy, that - - what steps did they take to protect this family? These were informants. These people were just not connected to the suspect in this case, these were informants. Do we realize what a dangerous precedent this could be if Miller is actually the perpetrator of this crime, that -- that...
GRACE: Can you finish your question, David?
SCHWARTZ: ... these informants were not -- these informants were not protected properly! I understand the question...
GRACE: Thanks, David.
SCHWARTZ: I`d like to know...
GRACE: Sir, would you like to answer...
SCHWARTZ: ... from Sgt. Trapani what steps they took and what the DA`s office did to protect this family.
GRACE: Sergeant?
TRAPANI: The investigation he`s talking about wasn`t a Mesa PD investigation, and we weren`t brought into this or into the loop until after these homicides actually occurred.
GRACE: OK, I`m going to give it a try with another defense attorney and see if he actually knows the answer. David Burns, to get an audiotape, specifically, a 911 tape in -- yes, they come in all the time, but it`s an evidentiary hurdle, Doug. How do you do it?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You lay a foundation, obviously. That`s what you`re getting at. You`re going to put a witness on, say -- well, you`ll put the operator on, the 911 operator. Were you on duty that day? Did you review the tape that I`m going to show you? You lay a foundation. Perhaps she initialed it. And then it goes into evidence.
But I`ll tell you something else, Nancy. I mean, everybody seems to be overlooking -- and at least David referred to it -- two of the victims were informants in the arson case.
GRACE: One was a co-defendant.
BURNS: Exactly.
GRACE: A co-defendant!
BURNS: Yes, but here`s...
GRACE: This guy, the boyfriend, who was shot dead, was apparently -- apparently helped -- allegedly, helped his boss...
BURNS: Right. But the...
GRACE: ... burn down a structure for the insurance money.
BURNS: I respect that the police are keeping this close to the vest, but there`s no question that Miller`s going to be arrested (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Doug Burns, OK, come clean for a moment!
BURNS: Sure.
GRACE: You`re trying to put the onus on the police that these -- this whole family should have been in witness protection. Look, witness protection is on "The Sopranos."
BURNS: Well...
GRACE: That is total BS to suggest that state`s witnesses, not federal witnesses, are in some underground protection program. It doesn`t exist, really, for state-level crimes!
BURNS: I know we`re all very animated, Nancy. I`m not the one who said that. David Schwartz did. But the reality is, if there was some evidence that they were threatened, then sure, you`re always going to Monday-morning quarterback if a problem resulted.
But I`ll tell you what. You talk about a stupid crime? He murders these people. They got him on tape. That tape is going to come into evidence. Forget the 911 tape. They have him talking about the crime, and that tape`s going to come in because they`re unavailable.
GRACE: And back to -- I want to clear something up about this witness protection program for witnesses. The reality is -- and I think you`ll back me up on this, Doug, even though we`re on different sides of the fence.
BURNS: Sure.
GRACE: It is very rare in violent crime prosecutions at state level that Witness Protection Act is available to state`s witnesses. That is very, very rarely used. So when people are attacking the Mesa Police Department because these people were not in witness protection, it`s practically non-existent!
BURNS: We`re on different sides of the fence now. I was a federal prosecutor for nine years...
GRACE: Right.
BURNS: ... and I worked with the U.S. Marshals Service and the witness protection program, obviously. And you`re absolutely right. The reality is, is that, unfortunately, it`s only in the most extreme cases, the most extreme situations where you`re going to put them in witness protection.
GRACE: Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Natalee Holloway`s mother spoke at her daughter`s high school last night, teaching students how to protect themselves when traveling, Beth Twitty using the tragedy of Natalee`s disappearance from her graduation trip in Aruba to kick-start Save Yourself, the name of the program, and the not-for-profit International Safe Travel Foundation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: I`ve known that I wanted to do it for a long time, since -- since June, because, you know, I knew the difficulties and the challenges and the barriers that were being placed before us, and I felt it didn`t have to be that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. We just heard gunshots.
911 OPERATOR: OK. How many gunshots did you hear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there were three.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three. Hold on. Here, honey, talk to her.
911 OPERATOR: Hi. You heard three gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: From which direction, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the back part of our house.
911 OPERATOR: So from the south of you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was south.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you hear any screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It seemed like there was a domestic dispute, and I didn`t hear exactly what she said. And then there was, like, two more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three! Another one! Another gunshot!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another gunshot. Or it sounds like a bat hitting something, like a ball.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: The victims who lost their life in this home invasion shooting, Tammy Lovell, age 32, Cassandra Lovell, 15, Jacob Lovell, 10, Steven Duffy, the boyfriend`s, age 30, Shane Duffy, age 18, all gone. These 911 calls, they`re transcripts placing this shooting of a family in their own home at 2:41 AM. Tonight, along with the Mesa Police Department, we are looking for answers.
Straight back to Sgt. Chuck Trapani, joining us from the Mesa Police Department. Sir, as of tonight, what is the latest? What is your police department doing to solve this?
TRAPANI: Nancy, we have detectives working around the clock, following up on leads. We are getting tips in on a regular basis. As soon as a tip comes in, it`s assigned to a detective and sent out for follow-up. As you mentioned, we have officially made notification of an investigative lead in this case, and we`re following up on that investigative lead to see if there`s any more connection to this case.
GRACE: Speaking of the tip line, everyone, 480-644-2211. Repeat, 480-644-2211. That`s the Mesa Police Department. There is a reward in the case.
Sergeant, you mentioned that a person of interest has been named. Why is William Miller considered a person of interest, or as you say, an investigative lead? What links him to this?
TRAPANI: Well, Nancy, obvious reasons. He had a connection to several of the victims in this homicide. And that`s one of those things we`re just not releasing just yet. We did notify the media that he is an investigative lead. However, we`re unable to tell you exactly why we classified him as that, at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: And the screaming was coming from just south of you also?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, north.
911 OPERATOR: Coming from the north?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Do you want an officer to contact you or just check the area?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want an officer to contact us? He just wants you to go next door.
911 OPERATOR: OK. All right. We`re on our way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
911 OPERATOR: If you hear anything further, just let us know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: A family of five wiped out in their upscale Mesa, Arizona, home. Tonight, we are looking for leads. Straight to reporter with "The East Valley Tribune," Paul Giblin. Paul, it seems to get curiouser and curiouser...
GIBLIN: Yes, I agree with you there.
GRACE: ... as the old saying goes because now the guy that is an alleged investigative lead says guess what? He was burglarized, too, and somebody came in his home and shot up his bed.
GIBLIN: Right. That was reported on Monday, so a couple days after the shootings and a couple months after the arson.
GRACE: What do we know about the alleged shooting in his home? He says that, coincidentally, that evening he had car trouble, got home late, came home to find his bed shot up. Was anything taken? And why, Paul Giblin, did police take his shoes? He`s the victim, according to him, of a burglary.
GIBLIN: Well, there`s a couple of interesting things about that burglar. There was signs of a break-in, a forced entry. The house was vandalized, as well. A hose was put inside the house, and water was running in the house, and sinks were left running. So the house had suffered water damage. He says money was taken, among other things.
And then there were four bullets in the bed. The police carted away all that stuff. I`m sure they`re looking to see whether those bullets matched the bullets that were involved in the shooting a few days earlier.
GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding. But Paul, what about the shoes? Why did they take this guy`s shoes?
GIBLIN: Oh, his shoes. That might have been to see if he kicked in the door to his own house. It might have been to see if the shoes were used in the shooting in Mesa a couple of days earlier.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls on the Mesa shootings. Please join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: Did you hear any shots also?
CALLER: I can`t say that it`s shots, but it`s definitely something going, "Bang! Bang! Bang!" Like I said, some woman definitely is screaming.
POLICE: OK. Did you want to be contacted or just have them go out and check the area?
CALLER: If they need any assistance or anything, as far as getting an idea of where it`s coming from, and also the neighbor that I seen come out of his house and run back in.
POLICE: All right, sir. We`ve got officers on the way out there, so they should be out there in just a few minutes for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An entire family wiped out in their upscale Mesa, Arizona, home. Tonight, the 911 tapes revealed. What can we learn from these tapes? They definitely prove that the shootings went down around 2:41 a.m., when most people were asleep. No forced entry that we know of.
They reveal a woman`s screams, which means, in my mind, that each family member was not systematically gagged and then killed. This woman was apparently screaming as gunshots were going down, as she witnessed the murders of her own family.
To Paul Giblin, reporter with the "East Valley Tribune," if this person of interest is linked to the murders -- let`s take a look at motive. All right, he was in trouble for a possible arson. But the reality is, Paul, how much time would he have done on an arson? Is it worth wiping out a whole family?
GIBLIN: No, I`ve spoken to a number of people on this, and he probably was facing probation on the low end, two years in prison on the high end. So you`re right. Now, the theory here is that he shot these people to get rid of the witnesses, but now he`s facing five life sentences. And in Arizona, we put people in the chair. So he could be put in the chair five times.
GRACE: Ooh, now, hold on. My ears just perked up. What`s the mode of the death penalty there, shooting?
GIBLIN: Right, and exasperated crimes, which this certainly would fall into that, as well.
GRACE: Wait, let`s see. The name Gary Gilmore is floating through my head. Is that the right jurisdiction, Ellie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Gary Gilmore was Texas wasn`t it?
GRACE: No, I don`t know. What`s your mode of death penalty there?
GIBLIN: I don`t know the nuances of it, but it is exasperated crimes and things of that -- and there`s also crimes against police and things like that. Chuck may be able to answer that question better than me, in fact.
GRACE: You know, actually, you`re right. Sergeant, what is the mode of death penalty there in Arizona?
SGT. CHUCK TRAPANI, PIO MESA POLICE DEPARTMENT: You know, Nancy, I`m not fully versed on that, as well. I mean, the county attorney would know that. But actually we don`t put people in the chair; it`s lethal injection here in Arizona.
GRACE: You are seeing shots of evidence being taken from the crime scene. An incredible case, 911 tapes reveal tonight. Let`s go to the calls.
Sandra in Ohio, thank you for calling. What`s your question?
CALLER: That`s what I was wondering, was what his charges were and what his sentence would be for him to kill three children?
GRACE: You know what, Sandra? You`re right! Let`s go to the lawyers on that.
Doug Burns, what do you think? I mean, clearly, if someone is convicted of five murders, five life sentences running consecutive or the death penalty -- Arizona has the death penalty, right?
BURNS: Yes, but, Nancy, do we really have to go through a list of people who have made their legal situation 10 times worse? What happened was he was facing conviction for arson. Arson is a fairly serious crime, so I disagree, most respectfully, with some of these analyses about, oh -- I mean, I`m a New York lawyer. I don`t purport to know the statutes out there, but arson is a serious crime.
And what happened was things don`t happen in a vacuum. He went out there, and he killed the witnesses. And then he must have panicked -- I`m theorizing -- and killed the others. And it just went completely out of hand. But I agree with you; there`s no rationality to it, but, I mean, what serial killing and murdering would be?
GRACE: You know what, Doug? This guy, of course, has not been named an official suspect. He has been named an investigative lead. I guess that`s somewhere in the scale of one to 10. He`s not a suspect or a named defendant. He`s not a person of interest.
He is an investigative lead, mostly because he`s connected to two of these victims, in that one of them helped him commit an arson, according to that victim, and one of them knew about it, specifically the mom and the boyfriend.
So, bottom line, to answer Sandra`s question, he`s looking at, if convicted, five consecutive life sentences or the death penalty. In practically every jurisdiction, Sandra from Ohio, mass killing, which means more than one body, is an aggravating circumstance for the death penalty.
Let`s go to T. in Kentucky. T., thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Yes, I wanted to know, in cases like this, do you question ex-spouses or family members first?
GRACE: Oh, you know it, T.
Let`s go straight out to Caryn Stark, psychotherapist, joining us. Caryn, always, always wouldn`t you agree the spouse, boyfriend, lover, ex is the first person of interest?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Always the first person of interest, Nancy. And I want to respectfully disagree with Doug with what he had to say earlier, if you don`t mind, Nancy, because I`m not sure that this was about not having witnesses.
I really think that, with the woman screaming, the mother, it sounds very much like revenge to me. If, in fact, this man did it, he wanted her to see everyone get killed, and he was aggressive and angry. And someone who can do that, who can actually commit arson, is that type of a personality.
GRACE: And I do have to agree with Doug, arson -- Doug just came off, everyone, a very intense arson federal case.
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: And I`ve tried them on the state level. And the tricky thing about an arson, Doug -- and I think you`ll agree with me -- is, first of all, it`s is not like a shooting, or a robbery, or a rape, or an aggravated assault, where you know a crime has occurred. First you have to prove it`s even a crime, that it`s not an accident.
BURNS: See, that`s a brilliant split of the whole thing. I mean, in an arson case, first you prove that the fire was intentionally set, as opposed to an accidental fire. But then juries get badly confused, OK.
GRACE: I`ve never have one confused, Doug, have you?
BURNS: No, but just when they -- you know, the point is you`ve got to prove exactly who did it. But arson cases get a lot easier, obviously, when you have informants, OK?
GRACE: Well, what about this, though, Doug? Even when you don`t have the physical evidence, like accelerant, detectives in arson divisions carefully go down a list of factors, for instance, removing items from the home before the arson.
Paul Giblin, what can you tell me about this guy removing items from his home before the place burned down?
GIBLIN: Well, if you believe some of the police reports, he removed a television, a gun, and some other material, and he had his employee cart it away. After the employee left, then he torched the house. Again, that`s according to the police reports.
GRACE: I mean, it was a whole truckload, if we`re supposed to believe the police report, as you said, I don`t think the police are making the whole thing up.
According to the police report, this guy unloaded a whole van, a moving truck of stuff, left it in a Home Depot parking lot and had somebody come pick it up. And then his place got torched. Hello? Psst, psst.
GIBLIN: Well, you have to make the assumption then that the informants were being truthful when they were speaking to the police. It`s going to be tough to put them on the stand since they`re dead now. That case was going to be in court in May.
GRACE: And very quickly, Caryn Stark, the manner of death, what does it tell us?
STARK: It tells us that this is a very angry person. It`s not as though, Nancy, he went into the bedrooms and while people were sleeping, if, in fact, it was him, he murdered them, he didn`t really want them to suffer.
This is somebody who went in, point-blank, shot them, let this woman scream and see what was happening. It`s aggression, not worried about what the law, what will happen to him, extremely angry, revengeful.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go back to the phones, Norma in Tennessee.
Norma, thank you for calling. What`s your question, friend?
CALLER: Well, why didn`t they have him in witness protection or hide them somewhere?
GRACE: Well, you know, good question. We talked about that a few moments ago. At state level, as opposed to the federal level, there basically is no witness protection program. That`s mostly in the movies.
And, also, to our sergeant, Chuck Trapani, had they asked for police protection, Sergeant?
TRAPANI: Nancy, that was another agency`s investigation. And, as I mentioned earlier, we didn`t get into the loop of that investigation until after these homicides occurred, so I don`t know if they did ask the other agency for protection.
GRACE: Let`s ask Ellie. Ellie, do we know anything about whether this family asked for protection?
ELIZABETH YUSKAITIS, PRODUCER: Well, what we understand is that family members say that they did say that there had been threats against their life. And they told that to the Scottsdale police department. But the Mesa police never heard about any specific threats.
GRACE: Straight out to David Schwartz, veteran defense attorney, David, the kicker is -- and, yes, Doug is correct. Arson is a serious crime, but it was his own home. It`s not like he`s got to pay restitution to himself. If he had gotten a two- to a 10-year sentence, he would have been out in a year-and-a-half to three years.
SCHWARTZ: But, Nancy, I agree with Doug. I think it is a strong motive. People do stupid things all the time, and things do get out of control.
And I think the motive in this case clearly is to get rid of the informants in this case. And I have to get back to this. I wasn`t advocating that they should have put these informants in witness protection, but if they call the police and they say that their lives are in danger and they`re informants on this case, I worked with many informants when I was a D.A. in Brooklyn.
You know, you got to go out there and protect your informants, not put them in witness protection. But there are other things that you can do. You can give a police presence in this gated community. And that`s another issue. Is there any evidence that there was a break-in into this gated community? I assume there was a guard at the front and there is video surveillance, also.
GRACE: Good point. Good point.
To Sergeant Chuck Trapani, at this young juncture, Sergeant, what can we do to help?
TRAPANI: We`re just asking the public for -- if anybody has any information about these homicides to please come forward to the Mesa police department. Because, as you know, we do have those 911 callers calling and saying that they heard screaming and gunshots, however nobody saw anybody leaving the area in a vehicle or on foot, so we`re just asking if anybody has any infringement, please call us.
GRACE: To Paul Giblin, "East Valley Tribune" reporter and Sergeant Chuck Trapani, Mesa police department, gentlemen, thank you.
TRAPANI: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Very quickly -- oh, and that tip line number, 480-644-2211.
We`re taking you quickly to our next story. But to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Day three in the case of Atlanta businessman James Sullivan against the state for the murder of his young wife, Lita. Motive? The millionaire didn`t even want to give a penny to his wife in a divorce. A loan manager`s testimony today says money was all he had on his brain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need your support, your prayers to help us find my baby sister, Ali. We miss you. We love you. Our prayers are out for you. Come home; we`re waiting.
Anyone can find Ali. We need you to help us find our sister, Ali. Ali, we love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This billboard went up today in Florida. The family desperately looking for Ali Lisha Gilmore. This lady, four months pregnant. Won`t you help us help police find Ali?
Straight to a reporter with the Florida Public Radio there in Tallahassee, Mark Simpson. Tell me, what do police think at this juncture became of Ali? Mark, are you with me?
OK, Elizabeth, can`t hear Mark. Maybe we can get him on.
Let`s go to Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. Leslie, what can you tell us about missing Ali?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello? Hello?
GRACE: OK, guys. We are having a real satellite problem. I`m going to try it one more time.
Elizabeth, let`s go to John Newland with the Tallahassee police department. OK, everybody, cross your fingers.
Are you with me, Officer? No John Newland. OK, I`m going to try one more before I just pack up and go home.
To Tracy Smith, Ali Gilmore`s sister. I hope I`ve got Tracy with me. Tracy, are you there?
TRACY SMITH, ALI GILMORE`S SISTER: Hi, Nancy. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, I`m glad to hear your voice. Thank you for being with us. What can you tell me about Ali`s disappearance?
SMITH: It`s really strange and unusual that she would be missing and for so long. She has a pattern that she goes to work, home. And just one day, vanished. It`s really out of character for Ali.
GRACE: Tell me about the day she went missing.
SMITH: Actually, she went to work at Publix, completed her work there at Publix. She went home. After that, no one has heard any -- or seen or anything regarding my sister.
GRACE: Tracy, Ali had two jobs, right?
SMITH: That`s correct.
GRACE: Where was other job?
SMITH: Department of Health with the state of Florida.
GRACE: So she worked there during the day and then would work in, I believe, the bakery department at Publix at night?
SMITH: That`s correct. She`s been with Publix since she was 15 years old. So she loved Publix.
GRACE: Tracy, your sister`s 30-year-old. She`s four months pregnant, correct?
SMITH: That is correct.
GRACE: What day did she go missing?
SMITH: Actually, the 3rd of February.
GRACE: Third of February.
OK, I want to try John Newland again with the Tallahassee police department. John, are you with me?
JOHN NEWLAND, PIO TALLAHASSEE POLICE: I am with you. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hey, John. Thank you for being with us.
John, what can you tell our viewers tonight about Ali, about the circumstances of her disappearance?
NEWLAND: Well, we`re baffled with the disappearance, mainly because, as Tracy said, her pattern is always the same. She`s a very hard worker at both jobs, Publix and Department of Health. She stays in contact with her family all the time. And yet, for the past almost four weeks now, nobody has heard from her. And so that`s what raises our concern that something, you know, is really wrong with this picture.
GRACE: John, where is her car?
NEWLAND: Well, when we got the call on Monday night, February 6th, her car was still in the driveway with her purse inside the car. So we got her car. We towed it to the inside storage, and we processed the car. We processed the house. And we`re still looking for any clues out there from anybody that may have heard or seen her...
GRACE: This reminds me so much of our Tara Grinstead case. So did you see any forced entry in the home?
NEWLAND: We did not see any forced entry in the house. That`s not saying there was, but we did not see any. There was an unlocked, I believe, a window in the rear of the house. The house was secure when we got there, and I think that`s the way we gained entry.
GRACE: You`re taking a look -- you were taking a look at the home of Ali Gilmore. Her car with the purse in it found parked in her driveway. What about cell phone, John?
NEWLAND: No, apparently her cell phone was turned off about a month- and-a-half prior to her disappearance.
GRACE: OK, so that`s not going to help. We`ll be back with Ali`s sister, Tracy, as well as Officer John Newland in our search for Ali.
Let`s go to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Jon Schillaci, wanted in connection with the `99 sex assault of a young boy, New Hampshire.
Schillaci, 35, 5`11", 180 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 617-742-5533.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And, remember, live coverage of the Lita Sullivan murder trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Please stay with us as we stop to remember Marine Sergeant Benjamin K. Smith, 24, killed in action, Iraq. The eldest of three children, a star place-kicker on his high school football team, Illinois. He loved country music and the rodeo. Benjamin K. Smith, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: This woman, Ali Gilmore, four months pregnant, now missing since Feb. 6. Won`t you help us find her?
Straight to Mark Simpson, reporter with Florida Public Radio there in Tallahassee. I think I`ve managed to coral Mark and Leslie Snadowsky back.
Mark, who is the baby`s daddy?
MARK SIMPSON, REPORTER, FLORIDA PUBLIC RADIO: Nancy, the father of the baby is the separated husband, James Gilmore. The couple was married for five years -- or, excuse me, they`ve been separated for five years, but he`s the father of the child. They had just started marriage counseling, and he had recently moved back to their Wilson Green (ph) residence. Prior to that, he had been living with his brother for about two months.
GRACE: To John Newland, with Tallahassee police, does the ex have an alibi?
NEWLAND: Well, we`re certainly looking at all angles of this. He`s been very cooperative with us. He`s talked to us very freely. He is a person of interest, along with several other people, also.
GRACE: Well, you know what? If he`s talking freely with you and trying to help you in the investigation, that says a lot about his lack of involvement.
To Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter, did Ali live alone? What can you tell us, Leslie?
LESLIE SNADOWSKY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "NEW YORK POST": Yes, at the point of the time of her disappearance, she was living alone. And she seemed (INAUDIBLE) a pretty dependable, connected person. That`s why I think that now, you know, everyone is thinking this case is definitely more suspicious and foul play may indeed have taken place, because otherwise she would have contacted her family. Supposedly, she had a really good track record of staying in touch.
GRACE: And working at one spot since age 15, that is very dependable. This billboard just going up.
To Tracy Smith, Ali Gilmore`s sister, if you could speak out to Ali right now, what would you say, Tracy?
SMITH: Hi, Ali. I love you, miss you. Come home. We really want you home. I really love you, too. Come home, Ali.
GRACE: At this juncture, the family left helpless. Won`t you help us help police? The tip line, 850-891-4357. Ali Gilmore, a mom-to-be.
Thank you especially to Tracy Smith for being with us, but thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you is to you for being with us again tonight, inviting us into your home.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
