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CNN Larry King Live
Interview With Jermaine Jackson; Update on Imette St. Guillen's Murder Investigation
Aired March 06, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Jermaine Jackson, Michael's oldest brother, in his first TV interview on yesterday's reports that he plans a sensational tell-all book in which he'd write that he feared Michael might be guilty of child molestation but that he supported him because he thought Michael might commit suicide in prison.
And then, could there be a break in that gruesome Manhattan murder mystery that's captivated the whole country? Police today questioned a potential suspect, a bouncer at a downtown bar where a beautiful grad student was last seen alive just over a week ago before she was found hours later and miles away raped, murdered and mutilated.
We've got all the latest. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening. Over the weekend, the "New York Daily News" ran a story claiming that Jermaine Jackson had planned a tell-all book. In it, the paper said he would reportedly tell readers that he feared his kid brother Michael was actually guilty of the child abuse charges against him.
The "Daily News" story also claimed that Jermaine's book would describe Michael as "an out of control drug and booze abuser with a calculated mean streak and a thing for young children."
Jermaine Jackson is here tonight and he says it's to set the record straight. OK, were you planning a book?
JERMAINE JACKSON: No, not a book to say these things, no.
KING: Were you planning any kind of book?
JACKSON: There is a book that I was shopping about three years ago called "Legacy" and the manuscript that I had was about five guys growing up in Gary, Indiana, which was the book which was going to lead into a musical but it was nothing of what's out there.
There's a whole other manuscript out there and this is -- I'm very, very upset because they were very interested in it and then they turned it down because there was no negativity. There was nothing of any sort of what's being said now.
KING: What did you make or how did you feel when you heard that story? JACKSON: I was pissed off, very upset, very upset, Larry, because you know where my heart has been since day one. Michael's been 1,000 percent innocent. I have spoken from my heart. I've spoken the truth. And, for me to -- I mean this is not good for me. It's not good for the family and, no, it's all false. It's lies. It's lies, deliberate lies.
KING: Here's what they say. "After seeing the story himself, Michael threw a raging fit and made drastic threats so that shaken older sibling Jermaine pulled the plug on the book." In other words, Michael was so mad at you about the book that he went crazy and caused you to drop the book.
JACKSON: Not at all. Where is this coming from? Where is this coming from? See, I know there was a person and don't want to mention his name but he was supposed to have been a family friend and he has turned on the whole entire family.
Michael's people called me and they asked me was this true and I told them no and I sent them my manuscript, which is totally different from what was said. They traced an e-mail of a very ugly manuscript back to this person and I don't want to mention his name but...
KING: Was he supposed to be a ghost writer for you?
JACKSON: He was supposed to have been the writer for the "Legacy" book, which is just -- it's about our childhood and growing up, nothing negative or anything. That's why they passed on my book because I had nothing ugly to say.
KING: Is there another book out there that's false?
JACKSON: I don't have any idea. I'm here just to clear my name. There is no book about Michael, no negativity. I stand behind him 1,000 percent, like I said, since day one and he's still that wonderful person that he's always been.
KING: We spoke with ghost writer Stacy Brown who said there was a book proposal out there more than two years ago called "Legacy" and that it came to an end when Michael found out about it.
JACKSON: No, it did not come to an end when Michael found out about it. It came to an end when someone, like himself, was putting out a whole other manuscript that wasn't telling the truth, going behind my back. And, I say it again, Michael's people called him and they told me they traced an e-mail back to him.
KING: To you knowledge does someone have a manuscript out there purported to be by you damaging to Michael?
JACKSON: I don't know. I'm just hearing this but I...
KING: You've never seen such a manuscript?
JACKSON: I've never seen such a manuscript but I'm saying things -- my saying that I said this and that and that's not true. They could have put it out there through someone else and they're hiding behind someone else.
KING: OK. Michele Caruso (ph), who wrote the story, says she stands by it.
JACKSON: She stands by it. Who is that?
KING: She's the writer of the story so she stands by her source I guess.
JACKSON: Well, can I tell you something?
KING: She's with the "New York Daily News."
JACKSON: She's wrong. She stands by it because nothing, nothing positive is going to sell. Listen, why would I -- why would I defend my brother like I did and stand by him all this time, then all of a sudden come out with something that's just so stupid?
It's crazy. We're a strong family, Larry, and they don't want to see that and I am sick and tired, I am tired of people saying things and saying that I've said things. Michael and this family are very close. Michael's doing fine. We are rebuilding.
We are getting back to our lives and we got a lot of good things in store and this is just to separate and tear down what we're trying to come back with, which is good music with great messages and to give love to the world. That's what we do. I am...
KING: Was Harper Collins the publisher that you had taken it to?
JACKSON: We had spoken to them and they acted like that they were very excited. I have the original manuscript that's totally different from what's out there and all of a sudden I get a call that they were not going to go with it which I don't have no idea why.
KING: And that's -- well maybe it's because it was too kind there. There was nothing controversial in it right?
JACKSON: Yes, but this is, Larry, this is -- this is a book that's going to be depicted from a musical and I'm really, really shocked that this is out there because this was old news way, way back and it was put aside but then someone came...
KING: You mean the original book?
JACKSON: Yes, but someone came back and they just brought all this up again which is not good.
KING: I just want to get through this. According to the original "Daily News" report, the book proposal says that Jermaine feared his kid brother Michael might be guilty of child molestation but backed him at the trial because he thought the pop star would commit suicide."
JACKSON: Larry, you're asking me that? Now you know as well as I know... KING: I'm just telling you what they're saying.
JACKSON: Don't tell me what they said. Give me facts because that's not true. That's not true. I was here in this studio telling you how I felt. You felt me. You believe me. The world believed me. Michael has never been guilty of anything.
KING: Yes, one would say it would be hard to believe that you would turn on your brother.
JACKSON: Please.
KING: According to the Daily News, "The tell-all outline shopped to publishers weeks after Michael's arrest. Jermaine described his brother as sometimes out of control, drug and booze abuser, calculating mean streak and a thing for young children." Where on earth did that come from?
JACKSON: I'll tell you what there are some sick people out there and they saw my love and my support for my family and Michael and they want to use me and I'm the wrong one to use because I talk and I'm speaking now. That's all lies and I'm just shocked that no one from the "New York Post" or anybody -- they know how to get in touch with my family.
KING: "New York News."
JACKSON: Oh, for the "New York News" they know how to get in touch with us. Why didn't somebody verify?
KING: You were never called for...
JACKSON: Nothing, nothing, because it sells especially when it comes to something that's so prefabricated about us. I'm just saying this. Michael went through so much. Who's going to give him his life back? Who's going to give him back what he lost as just a person, a person?
I mean he's still trying to rebuild his life back, not just Michael, the family, our children, everybody. People don't realize what we went through and to just to create more lies. Leave us alone. Let us do what we know how to do but leave us alone.
KING: The "New York Daily News" never called you for a comment? They did not call you?
JACKSON: No.
KING: The eight-page proposal, according to the News, lists Michael's preferred substances as Vicodin, Demerol, Codeine, Percocet, cocaine, Jack Daniels and wine.
JACKSON: Well, I'll tell you what, that's not Michael Jackson. They're talking about someone else.
KING: And there's no such thing to your knowledge as an eight- page proposal of a book that contained anything like this?
JACKSON: None.
KING: OK.
JACKSON: Not coming from Jermaine Jackson, no.
KING: And this Stacy Brown is that a man or a woman?
JACKSON: He's a man.
KING: He wrote the first book right?
JACKSON: There was no book written. He was going to...
KING: I mean I thought he wrote "Legacy."
JACKSON: No, he was going to be the ghost writer of "Legacy" but I started feeling certain things from him. It changed and that's when we broke off the relationship and I just mean the whole family. And then he would say things.
When you spoke to me from the Middle East he would say things because I was watching you guys back here in the news and everything, he was saying things that would leave the people thinking that Michael's guilty in this. I said "Why is Stacy saying these things?" He knows the truth.
KING: Do you think he is responsible for this eight-page outline?
JACKSON: I would say he had something to do with it, yes.
KING: We'll take a break and be right back with Jermaine Jackson. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Jermaine Jackson. According to the "Daily News" the book proposal was written by Stacy Brown, who you called an opportunist right?
JACKSON: If that's what you want to call him, yes.
KING: They quote you as saying you called him an opportunist.
JACKSON: Yes.
KING: The proposal said that...
JACKSON: That was a wrong quote. I've never called him...
KING: You never said it?
JACKSON: ...an opportunist, no, but see that's the facts but he is probably all of that and more, to befriend us and then do this. KING: So, he's faked this book which is not true under your name?
JACKSON: Yes. He did a book with Bob Jones, if you recall that didn't do well and that was another betrayal and I -- I just -- do you know what -- just like I said before I come here to talk about this stuff and I really don't like to do this. I like to talk about good things.
KING: Well, naturally.
JACKSON: Yes.
KING: Are you going to sue him?
JACKSON: That's not a bad idea. Well, do you know what, maybe that needs to happen because then that will show, tell people to leave us alone really.
KING: You could sue him.
JACKSON: That's just terrible.
KING: And the "Daily News."
JACKSON: Well, I'll tell you I will talk to my legal people and we will come with the best decision.
KING: This even says that according -- this is according to the Daily News, "Michael hates the Jews...
JACKSON: That is (INAUDIBLE).
KING: ...because he thinks Hollywood mogul Steven Spielberg, Jeffrey Katzenberg and David Geffen stole the idea of DreamWorks, including the boy on the moon logo from him."
JACKSON: I'll tell you what, see this is somebody trying to destroy and they're very vicious lies. We don't -- we weren't raised to hate any race, any nationality of people, so it's not true. It's not true at all. This stuff is -- is -- why would they pick the Jews? Why wasn't it the Cubans or the -- or the Russians, why the Jews?
KING: But, boy, there's a lot of stuff in here and if it's not true you can go...
JACKSON: It's thick. It's thick. I'm going to have a good time going after somebody.
KING: Allegations that he and -- that his and Michael's father Joseph would be in prison if the mother hadn't protected him.
JACKSON: Ah, see, Larry please, please.
KING: You were writing about your dad engaging young Michael in late night hotel room meetings with important business people and wondered whether something happened to Michael at those sessions.
JACKSON: Larry, please.
KING: This is tough stuff.
JACKSON: This is crazy stuff. Can you not read anymore please...
KING: OK, we're almost done.
JACKSON: ...because people are listening to this stuff and it's sick. It is very sick and they -- how can we be a people who write music with positive messages to behave like this? You tell me. And, for people to say these things is jealousy. It's envy. They're afraid that we're going to create something positive and this is their way of trying to stop good from happening.
KING: So, straightforward you're denying the whole thing?
JACKSON: Everything you said and I can prove it by showing the world my manuscript, the original manuscript of "Legacy."
KING: Well, do you intend to sue?
JACKSON: I'm going to sue now, now that you've mentioned it a few times.
KING: No, I mean...
JACKSON: Yes. Yes.
KING: There's no other way or else it looks like, you know, you should...
JACKSON: Yes.
KING: The courts are the last resort.
JACKSON: You're right, Larry.
KING: That's where people go. A couple of other quick things, Michael is where in Bahrain?
JACKSON: Yes.
KING: How's he doing?
JACKSON: He's doing wonderful. He's gained some weight. He's happy and he's running on the beach. I spoke to him. He's doing 300 pushups a day and doing sit-ups. He's getting those muscles back and he's getting ready.
KING: Going to go singing again?
JACKSON: Of course. He's going to make music. We did a song for the hurricane victims, which is doing very, very -- it's coming along well. It's been taking a bit of time to get out there but it's going to be released and it's -- see there again he's spending his time trying to help and trying to contribute.
Now what do you call a person like that, a good person right? Who cares? And that's what it's about. That's what we're here for to care, to give back. That's what we're here for.
KING: How's his family?
JACKSON: Fine, fine. And all these things about his children, I'm tired, we're tired. I mean to tell the truth the Middle East is a peaceful place. It's very peaceful, very peaceful.
KING: He enjoys it. Have you been over to see him?
JACKSON: Yes, yes.
KING: Thanks, Jermaine.
JACKSON: Thank you very much.
KING: Jermaine Jackson and I think there's going to be a suit.
And when we come back we'll talk about that incredible tragedy in New York. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
The ultimate irony of a young student of the criminal justice system, the body of a 23-year-old graduate student Imette St. Guillen was found Sunday morning in the rough Brooklyn neighborhood of East New York.
St. Guillen was found with a sock stuffed in her mouth. Her long hair was gone. Her head had been wrapped in packing tape and her hands and feet were bound. Tonight, a man named Darryl Littlejohn (ph), a bouncer from the bar where Imette was last seen is being questioned.
Let's meet our panel. In New York, Davidson Goldin, a columnist for the "New York Sun" has been following this case since the beginning.
Also in New York is Dr. Henry Lee, the distinguished professor, University of New Haven, and author of the upcoming book "Dr. Lee's Forensic Files." Dr. Lee lectured at John Jay College of Criminal Justice today and that's where this victim was a graduate student.
In Minneapolis is criminal profiler Pat Brown.
And, in Miami, is Linda Fairstein, the former New York City district attorney and author of the new book "Death Dance."
Davidson, bring us up to date on this story. DAVIDSON GOLDIN, "NEW YORK SUN" COLUMNIST: Well, at this point, Larry, the police have Darryl Littlejohn, that's just one of his names, he's got about half a dozen aliases, he's in custody on a parole violation.
It turns out back in 1995 he robbed a bank on Long Island, was sentenced to ten years in jail. He was a bouncer at The Falls, which as you said was the last bar that Imette St. Guillen was seen.
Police now have been told apparently by a lawyer for that bar that he walked Imette out of the bar early Saturday morning about nine days ago. The police now, they're not calling him a suspect but I don't know what else you could call him. They're searching his home and they have him in custody now.
They're technically only holding him on this parole violation because under the terms of his release from jail he was supposed to be home by nine o'clock every night and obviously he wasn't home if he was working at the bar. So that's where things stand now. They seem to think they have a suspect but police are being very careful and won't quite call him that yet.
KING: Has he had any history, prior history of violence?
GOLDIN: Well, other than the armed robbery, no. I guess it depends whether you consider -- he didn't actually fire the gun but I guess that technically is a violent crime. Before that for the last 25 years or so, since he was about 16, he's been in and out of jail on various drug possession, drug sale, weapons possession charges.
But this is the first instance of him actually being in jail for a long period of time with this ten year sentence. He served about eight years before he was released. His parole was set to expire in November. And, police now looking at him very closely. The evidence they have against him at this point seems to be that his cell phone is in the area where Imette's body was discovered, about 17 hours after she was last seen.
And, even people familiar with the bar, people in the bar, the lawyer for the bar saying that he walked her out. She was quite drunk apparently and the bouncer may have been asked to escort her out. They disappeared together. Apparently they were last seen together leaving the bar at about four o'clock in the morning early Saturday morning.
KING: Davidson, we'll get to the rest of the panel. Everybody will be included. We'll include phone calls as well. The reason for the extraordinary interest in this is the horrific way she was killed right?
GOLDIN: Police here say it's among the worst crimes they've ever seen. The reassuring part of the story, if it does turn out that the bouncer is not only the suspect but the person that did this, is it would relieve people that there isn't some monster lurking on the streets. Because I know talking to people over the last week or so people have been nervous. People being out until four o'clock in the morning in New York that's last call that's not that unusual, the unusual part of this is New York's been a relatively safe place for quite a while now and people are not accustomed to young women just being snatched off the street by total strangers. So, if it does turn out that it was this bouncer, the reassuring part would be it wasn't just a random crime of some maniac just wandering the streets.
KING: How was this, Dr. Lee, how was this young lady killed?
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, right now they still haven't determined cause of the death yet. I'm sure the medical examiner is going to look at whether or not strangulation or any other injury. Basically on the report it says a mark on the chest, also the tape wrapped around the whole face. That can cause suffocation.
Now, it's pretty easy to link to this potential suspect having socks in her mouth. The socks should have some dry tissues and those tissue materials should be able to do DNA to determine whether that's consistent with Littlejohn and linked to him.
In addition, they have a bath spray. That bath spray also can contain two major categories of physical evidence. One it's biological. Look at her hair, saliva (INAUDIBLE) semen, DNA. The other we can look at fibers. We can look at animal hairs, soil material. In addition, the wires, the clear tape also there are shoe laces involved so DNA could be an important clue in linking the suspect.
KING: Do we know if she was raped, Dr. Lee?
LEE: Apparently sexual assault and rape and sodomized.
KING: Pat Brown, you're a criminal profiler. What kind of person does this?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Larry, some people think it isn't a serial killer but I absolutely say it is a serial killer. Nobody crosses this line and does this kind of horrific, kind of sadistic crime to a woman who is not a serial killer.
Now the problem is with these guys is they're not labeled a serial killer until we've proven that they've committed three similar crimes with down times in between. But to me let's just label him what he is already, whether he's done it before or he's going to do it again. He is a serial killer and he's extremely dangerous.
And, last, what we just heard is correct. We can hope it's Littlejohn because at least it would give us somebody right away to get off the street. If it's not him, we're back to looking at who the heck in Manhattan could be the person that did this awful thing.
KING: Are you saying if it's Mr. Littlejohn he's a serial killer in your book?
BROWN: Yes, I would say he's a serial killer. We just may not -- if he -- if he did this crime.
KING: Yes.
BROWN: Because this is the crime they do but we just wouldn't have known, if he turns out to be the guy, what other crimes he has done until we can link them to him. Now, this particular kind of crime, the level of this crime with the cutting off of the hair and the awful things done to her body and the level of taping, which is a bondage thing, it's just not the type of crime somebody does the first time.
So there's got to be some other crimes against women that are not quite as horrific as this building up to this kind of crime. So, I say this guy's done it before. We just don't know where and who.
KING: Unlikely that it's a one-time episode?
BROWN: Absolutely.
KING: Linda Fairstein what's your read on this, the former prosecutor and terrific novelist by the way.
LINDA FAIRSTEIN, FORMER NEW YORK CITY ASST. D.A.: Thank you. My good friend Henry Lee has told you the forensic side of it and I think the one advantage for police and forensic biologists working on this case is that sexual assaults and homicides, including sexual assaults, are contact crimes and there is a huge amount of forensic evidence.
I think and I credit the office of the chief medical examiner and the NYPD with whom I worked closely for 30 years that there have not been the kind of leaks that would suggest what evidence has been discovered so far, but we've seen all day detectives working in the basement and the offices around this bar and restaurant and so I'm quite sure they're looking in vehicles.
They've now been to the suspect's home, the crime scene area itself, a fourth place, so there are all the things that Dr. Lee talked about, the possibility of seminal fluid, saliva, the girl's tears, the skin cells, so much that forensic biology gives us now to try to link to this.
I'm not sure that I agree with Pat Brown that this man has necessarily killed before. This is a very opportunistic crime at this moment. Yes, sadistic, yes it does have all the trademarks of people who have done this before. He's an accomplished criminal. He's led a -- his entire adult life has been a criminal existence.
And here you have an extremely vulnerable young woman walking out of this bar very early in the morning after a night of drinking. Yes, we're told intoxicated and somebody actually it would seem put her in his hands to get out of the bar and he's a thug to begin with. So, I'm quite optimistic about the solution to the case and it is one of the most horrible we've seen in New York.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. We'll also be including your phone calls. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A 24-year-old grad student in criminal justice was out with a close friend at a popular Manhattan bar. They stayed until about 3:30 in the morning when St. Guillen went on her own to a second bar several blocks away. She had a drink, then left at 4:00 a.m.
Seventeen hours later, an anonymous caller to 911 said a body was laying in tall grass near an isolated Brooklyn street, 15 miles from the bar. Imette St. Guillen had been raped and beaten.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAUREEN ST. GUILLEN, MOTHER OF MURDER VICTIM IMETTE ST. GUILLEN: She was a beautiful girl. I mean beautiful inside also. She was kind, she was loving. She wouldn't hurt anyone. She wouldn't want anyone else to be hurt either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back discussing this tragedy in New York City, which has become one of the safest cities in the United States by the way. Davidson wanted to counter something that Linda said.
GOLDIN: Thanks. Ms. Fairstein said there haven't been any leaks in this case. Since the beginning this case has leaked lick a sieve. The original news that this crime had occurred was a newspaper report a couple of days after. Much more information in terms of details in that report than the police would have wanted.
Just now over the weekend, what we do know is that when the police got this tip from the lawyer for the Falls Bar, that perhaps the bouncer was involved or the last person seen with Imette, the police went back. What we know from various sources is that the police found in the basement of the bar, they found tape similar to the tape that was used to bound Imette's face. They found wire similar to some of the wire used to bind Imette's hands and feet. They also found a cat lived there and hairs from that cat it turns out the blanket, the cheap motel style blanket used to wrap Imette's body, had cat hairs apparently on it.
So right now what seems to be holding things up in terms of officially labeling Mr. LittleJohn as a suspect is the police just took in these materials over the weekend, and it takes two days to four days for the DNA tests and other tests to come back. Right now they're just trying to hold him on this parole charge as they process these tests.
KING: There was a 911 call, Henry. Are they able to trace that? They traced it to a phone booth? LEE: Yes, they traced it to a phone booth. Because by the phone booth, they only know the location. However, you know, I have to say Linda is a very experienced prosecutor, the most experienced prosecutor in Manhattan. Did a lot of cases.
This case you are looking at in totality, not only the witnesses the phone call, or some physical evidence. Don't forget he has to have a vehicle. So far, the tape and the wire only show some similarity connection. Unless we find the wire has Littlejohn's DNA on it, or the tape had fingerprints on it, have a direct linkage.
I'm sure they already searched his vehicle, looked for trace evidence. That blanket is going to be a very important clue. And we have evidence, potential evidence, to link to him. That evidence, basically, will trace for us transfer evidence.
They should examine the blanket inch by inch, or probably they should publish that showing the media if any public information, somebody recognizes, say Littlejohn owns that blanket, that can be an indirect linkage too.
KING: Pat Brown, will you say they're going to solve this?
BROWN: if they've got the right man right now, yes, they are. I have to say that I think the leaks from the police are actually a good thing. Most sexual homicides do not get solved because not enough information goes out to the public that helps them then identify suspects. So I'm always pleased when more information goes out.
And also, when we look at whether this is an opportunistic crime or not, most serial killers are opportunists. What they do is they troll on a regular basis. They are always looking for the time when there is a window of opportunity when a girl is out there available and alone. Whether they are in a car, or they are in a bar, or they are just somebody's walking by their house, whatever it is. They're looking for that opportunity. That's what they do. They troll.
This guy could well be a serial killer even if he happened to work at the bar and had the opportunity. That's the point, he had opportunity.
KING: He trolls from behind the bar?
BROWN: He trolls wherever he goes. Serial killers troll 24 hours a day. It's their hobby. They don't fish, they don't go hunting, except for humans. That's what they do, that's what they love. They're always looking for that chance. That's why women have to be extremely careful.
Whenever there's a window of opportunity, which is only five seconds, 10 seconds, 15 seconds, when they're alone and nobody is watching, that's when they're in danger.
KING: Linda Fairstein, do you think it's as you know New York City, they're going to solve this? FAIRSTEIN: I absolutely do. And Davidson was right to correct me about the leaks. Because I've read a lot of them in the newspaper too. But I mean when Dr. Lee said, we don't know yet the manner of death, the cause of death. The M.E.'s information, the forensic biology and the information coming from the medical examiner's office, that's the stuff that really, as Dr. Lee knows, could put this together in a few minutes for us.
It's those results that I've been able to get no information about, heard nothing about. And I think because it is a contact crime, you can shoot and kill someone, Larry, as you know from feet away or across the street. You can stab someone without ever touching the body and exchanging the fluids and the substances and the trace evidence that Dr. Lee was talking about.
But here, there is likely to have been a lot of it that will either inculpate Mr. Littlejohn as all three of the others have referenced, or will exonerate him and will help link to someone else. I think finding the body as quickly as they did, before it was exposed to the elements, and these things would not be found and readily matched.
I think getting back to the building and finding the blanket the bed spread Dr. Lee has referred to, the cat hairs that Davidson was talking about. These are all things that are going to help make, I think, a strong forensic case, added to the fact that it's a known individual from the bar who was seen leaving with her.
KING: Linda, are the prosecutors involved now?
FAIRSTEIN: The prosecutors -- this is apparently, I believe, being handled in Brooklyn. Because the young woman disappeared in Manhattan, the body was found in Brooklyn, it could be prosecuted in either county. But I understand that the suspects in the police precinct in Brooklyn, and both of these counties have the practice of riding, of homicide assistants, the top assistants in the office being assigned from the get-go to work with the police to make sure that everything is done so that the evidence, when found, is admitted in court.
And if there's a statement to be taken, that it's done on videotape, also admissible. Search warrants. It would be the prosecutors who have been doing the search warrants that got them back into the building, around The Falls, some of which I think was a consent search, and certainly into the defendant's home and his van.
KING: We'll take a break. When we come back we'll include your phone calls for our terrific panel. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anonymous 911 call about the body came from one of these telephones right outside of the Lindenwood Diner here in East New York about a mile from where the body was found. There are 16 security cameras outside and inside of the diner. But unfortunately, not one of them is trained on this telephone bank. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. We're going to include your phone calls. And we begin with Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin, hello.
CALLER: Yes, hello, Larry. Very quickly, I have a three-part question. As a mom, a professional single woman, I want to know, was there any -- are there any satellite images available? Were there any security cameras outside the bar? And had the police investigated all the illegal cabbies?
KING: Good question. Davidson, you want to take it?
GOLDIN: Sure, the two answers to that question. There was a security camera outside the first bar that Imette and her friend Claire were at until about 3:30 in the morning. That's how police know what time they left and they saw them having this discussion that they had about whether or not to go home or stay out.
The friend went home, Imette stayed out and went to the other bar. There are no security cameras outside the second bar, the Falls. That's part of what's held this investigation up for a few days and why for much of last week, cops didn't have very much at all. They've checked various security cameras, about 25 in the blocks surrounding the Falls. None of those cameras had Imette's picture, which is why this theory they're working on now, that she may have been killed inside that bar, begins to make so much sense.
KING: What do you make, Pat, of -- there are some people sort of blaming her for being young and drinking and single and out at 4:00 in the morning?
BROWN: Well, I don't know that people mean to blame her, Larry, but I do think they're trying to hit home the point that women do have to be careful. What serial killers look for...
KING: It's not her fault, though.
BROWN: ... It's not her fault, but she put herself in a position that was very dangerous. And as a female -- I mean, I hate that fact. I hate the fact that I can't go running at dusk. I hate the fact that when I walk out of a building, I have to do a 360 and not be drunk and not wear high heeled shoes so I'm so unstable that anybody can grab me.
I hate all of that, but the fact is, it exists and we have to let young women know that it is true. When you get separated from the herd and you're in a situation where it's perhaps dark and you can easily be grabbed, you cannot fight Mike Tyson.
This little girl was 5'3 or 5'2, she was a small girl. She cannot put up a fight and I don't care how many self-defense courses you take, you're dealing with a guy that's big, you're not going to win. It's a reality of life and we have to be aware of that so women -- they can go do lots of things. I'm a traveler myself and I love to go places, but I use a lot of common sense and we have to when we go out.
KING: Burton, Michigan, hello.
CALLER: Yes, this question is for Dr. Lee. Dr. Lee, I really admire your work and I just want to know how difficult does the case become once the body has been removed from the crime scene?
LEE: Removed from crime scene, now unless they document it thoroughly, collect all the trace evidence from the scene, and preserve it, once it's moved the scene is altered.
But don't forget there's some other potential evidence. Her hair was cut. So they have to have a knife involved. And of course, her clothing is missing. She was found nude. And police should search for her clothing. The location of her clothing may be, can also yield some clue.
In addition, a geographic analysis, how far to the dump site? Near the street light to the bar? And how long it takes and what type of vehicle. And many people think this dump site because the suspect wanted the body to be found.
It's not necessary. Maybe in a hurry, just dropped the body in the closest area, afraid of people to see them, to carry the body actually, into a more remote area. And so so much we can do now, I'm sure New York City police try to do their best.
KING: The irony is that here's a young girl, majoring in criminal justice, a graduate student at John Jay where Dr. Lee spoke today, has a life ended by criminal injustice.
LEE: Yes, terrible.
KING: Let's check in with Anderson Cooper, who will host "A.C. 360" at the top of the hour. Anderson, what a sad story, what's up?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, a terrible story it is, Larry, thanks very much. An international manhunt is underway right now that we want you to know about. The hunt is on for a deadbeat dad whose callousness is frankly just hard to believe.
Byron Perkins is the dad's name, a career criminal. He got out of jail by promising to donate a kidney to his critically ill son. He was a perfect match with his son and his son desperately needs that kidney.
But instead of saving his son's life he grabbed his girlfriend, that woman there, and took off. Thanks to CNN viewers, authorities have been able to track the callous couple to Mexico. Tonight we're hot on their trail. We'll show you the last known whereabouts of Byron Perkins and talk to the mother of the boy, still hoping his dad will come home and do the right thing. Police say they need your help. We'll have the latest at the top of the hour, Larry. KING: Thanks, Anderson. Human nature confounds us. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" at the top of the hour. We'll be back with more phone calls. Don't go away.
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N.G. BERRILL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: It's clear that this crime was enacted in a fairly methodical manner. That it was a bunch of supplies involved. There was step-by-step progressions, I'm sure, beginning with fear, then torture, sex abuse, then death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Several of St. Guillen's fingernails were broken, indicating a struggle. New York's medical examiner has been analyzing skin from under the nails, hair and skin follicles found on the bed spread, as well as any bodily fluids found at the crime scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTHA ST. GUILLEN, MOTHER OF MURDER VICTIM: Really what we want to do is we'd like to just concentrate on the positive things and the life of my daughter and her sister and not focus on the negative aspects of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Nanaimo, British Columbia, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry, this is -- I'm from Nanaimo and I always watch your show and I'd just like to say hello and what a terrific job you do of bringing on so many important people into the world for us to all listen to.
KING: Thank you, what's the question?
CALLER: What my question is is to Linda. And my question is, how do you differentiate the difference between a serial killer and a regular killer? I really send my condolences out to that family because that woman looked like such a beautiful, nice lady.
KING: The serial killer is what, Linda?
FAIRSTEIN: Pat's defined it after three killings of a similar manner, same modus operandi.
KING: Where you don't know the person, right?
FAIRSTEIN: Where the person generally is a stranger to the offender. This is clearly a sadistic killing in the nature of serial sex offenders. I hope Pat's wrong, but she may very well be right that there were other victims. And the beauty now of forensic biology is the ability through DNA, this evidence will go into the data banks of unsolved and open cases. Cold cases can be compared to it. But it's the definitional number that's assigned after a certain number of killings.
KING: Pat, do you think crime has been reduced by the nature of ability to solve them, DNA and the like? Do you think there's less crime because of the sophisticated manner in which crime can be solved?
BROWN: Well, I think that DNA has helped all of these cases. Obviously it's a wonderful tool. But the question is, you have to be able to find the DNA. And that's the important thing. And then you have to find the person to match it to.
This is what's so important about finding a body as quickly as possible, finding the crime scenes as quickly as possible. Because then you've got the evidence. As soon as time goes on, a day or two or a month, and then the weather takes over and stuff disappears, then you just don't have the stuff to match to anybody or anything. And that's when it gets really difficult.
But yes, DNA is wonderful, as are the cameras we have today. That's one of our best tools today in catching serial killers is the cameras that catch them right on tape. So I want more of those out there every place we can get them.
KING: Davidson, are the police optimistic about this?
GOLDIN: The police are very optimistic about this. They've been optimistic since the beginning. But there seemed to be a little false optimism last week as late as Friday, for example. It seemed it was done for the cameras. They had 150 cops searching the crime scene, looking six days later for clues.
And there was a general sense that was just to try to show the public they were working. Over the weekend though they did get this tip from the lawyer of the bar that they should look at the bouncer from the bar, which is what they're doing now.
And one theory beginning to make the rounds, Larry, we've all seen the crime shows, we all know what serial killings look like. Is it possible that whoever did this, tried to make it look like a serial killing? Cutting off the hair, tying up the body to try to bring police in the wrong direction?
KING: Dr. Lee, if this was a rape, wouldn't there be semen?
LEE: Yes, if it's a rape, if there is ejaculation involved, should be some semen. Of course, not always. Sometimes the rapists try to prevent biological fluid. They use condom or intentionally outside the body cavity.
But on the other hand, because of cat hair, cat hair we can do cat DNA now. Because animal DNA now becomes important to provide linkage. My colleague, we did some research, we can do planned DNA. Of course, serial killer will have to -- again, it's not only three. Three have to be separate killings. If there are three together, that's a mass killing. And also serial killer, usually involving planning, involving premeditation. Also they're living fantasy.
This case, just like Pat says, it's a very important. Linda also mentioned that the DNA even if he is not a serial killer right this moment, but his DNA going to put in the data bank. Some unsolved other case may be linked to him.
KING: Nashville, Tennessee, hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry. Good evening, Dr. Lee.
Dr. Lee, you mentioned the totality of the circumstances. And forensics is your science and your discipline. So let me try to work this in a matter of consistency. I always try to look out at what's the in game, what's the motive. And then try to work the case in reverse.
I'm asking you this. What troubled me out of the gate on this case was the cutting of the hair. Now, my belief is this, and I find it totally consistent. I'd like to ask you to come at me with some thoughts on this.
KING: What is it, sir?
CALLER: The question is, I believe this is a professional killer for hire. It is a targeted district. And that there was a targeted plan for a specific reaction from the school. Now, does that fit with the cutting of the hair?
KING: OK. Let me get a break, and I'll have Dr. Lee answer as soon as I come back. Got to get one more break in. We'll answer that question right after these words.
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KING: OK. Dr. Lee, possible targeted killing.
LEE: Well, I start my career 45 years ago as a homicide detective. We work at three pillars, motive, means, and opportunity. A professional killer targets her, why? What's the motive?
Second, the opportunity. Somebody have to follow her for quite a while. From first bar, then goes to the first bar and waits for his opportunity.
The third thing, somebody have to bring the blanket, tapes, wire and scissor or knife to cut. It just goes through a lot of troubles. A hit man, professional, just one gunshot, take care of that. So, sir, it's an interesting theory. But I have to disappoint you. It's not a hit.
FAIRSTEIN: Larry, may I add? I'm with Dr. Lee. For those viewers who don't know the John Jay College, where this young woman went, is upper West side of New York, 59th street 10th Avenue. There are a lot of bars around there. If you were targeting a John Jay student, this bar is way downtown Manhattan, near the barrier, Lafayette Street. It has nothing to do -- it's not where you would go to target a criminal justice student.
KING: Pat Brown, are you going to add something?
BROWN: Well, I would add that usually when somebody stages a crime it's to cover up something that's going to connect them. Usually it's a husband who's killed his wife, and he wants to make it look like a rape so he's not the number one suspect.
So this absolutely has all the earmarks of a serial homicide. What the guy did was for the fun of it. He just truly, truly enjoyed doing what he did. And that is definitely not the sign of a hit.
KING: Davidson Goldin, what do they say about the removal of the hair?
GOLDIN: Well, the removal of the hair everybody from the beginning has seemed to think is indicative of a serial killing. Although given if it does turn out that the current suspect, Mr. Littlejohn (ph), does get charged and the theory does become that he is in fact the person who killed Imette, the that seems to take the serial killing concept out of this.
And that's why some people now are beginning to say, did he try to make it look like a serial killing to try to take this heat off of himself?
KING: Thank you all very much. We appreciate it. We'll be staying on top of this.
Sad news today. We are announcing the baseball legend Kirby Puckett was given last rights and passed away this afternoon. The hall of famer was hospitalized Sunday after suffering a stroke. Kirby Puckett was 45 years old. He led the Minnesota Twins to World Series titles in 1987 and 1981.
He wished to be an organ donor. Medical staff at St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center are currently determining if that wish can be fulfilled. And Kirby's family and friends thank his fans for their thoughts and prayers. The family will not speak. Kirby Puckett.
Tomorrow night, Melanie Bloom will be with us, the widow of NBC correspondent David Bloom.
Right now we go to New York, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." He is following another interesting case tonight -- Anderson.
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