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Nancy Grace
Police Seek to Solve the Murder of a New York Graduate Student.
Aired March 08, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Tonight: A 41-year-old bouncer is under intense NYPD scrutiny in the brutal assault, torture and murder of a 24- year-old grad student. Investigators seized minivan seats from the bouncer`s basement, and they are being tested at this hour for DNA belonging to Imette St. Guillen.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Now, tonight, stunning developments in the New York grad student murder mystery. New York detectives relentlessly pursue their day-and- night investigation into the brutal assault, torture and murder of Imette St. Guillen. The 24-year-old beauty was last seen in a bar in the trendy Soho part of Manhattan. Authorities tonight are focusing on a bouncer who has a long criminal record.
Let`s get right to it. Alex Koppelman, "Justice" magazine, what`s the latest?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t say for what.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Drug possession -- three of those - - possession of stolen...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX KOPPELMAN, "JUSTICE" MAGAZINE: Pat, as you said -- I`m sorry -- they are currently searching his home. They`ve searched his home. They found two vans belonging to him, and they have taken seats from the van that had been removed from the van and left in his house. They took clothing from his house. And they are continuing to focus on him. They`re waiting for physical evidence to come in.
LALAMA: And those seats are critical, since the van they allegedly belonged to is down the street.
KOPPELMAN: That`s exactly right, yes.
LALAMA: OK. Now, you know, the big question everyone`s been wondering -- suspect, not a suspect. What is this guy? Today we actually hear from police commissioner Ray Kelly. This is how he addressed the situation.
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RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: The term that we use is a "person of interest," and he`s clearly a person of interest in this case.
We`re looking at the people who were in that bar that evening. We continue to talk to folks that may have knowledge of the activities at that location that evening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: OK. Now, that sounds like responsible -- Allan Chernoff responsible for that, CNN correspondent. He`s been digging at this all day. What have you got for us, Allan?
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pat, the commissioner really told it like it is. I mean, the police department here in New York doesn`t like to talk about "suspect" or "prime suspect," even if we see that phrase in the tabloids. "Person of interest" is really how they`re describing this bouncer. Now, there`s no conclusion here. They have not brought any charges just yet. There may be other people involved. This person may end up not being involved. So let`s be cautious here just at the outset.
But what`s going on now and the key to the investigation at the moment is actually in the laboratory. The DNA lab of the New York City medical examiner -- they`ve been investigating DNA extracted from hair and skin fragments, first of all, found the day that they did uncover the body, and now, after having gone over to Mr. Littlejohn`s home, taking evidence over there, they will now try to extract DNA from some of those substances, as well. This can take a little while. We may not have a conclusion to this within the next few days.
LALAMA: Right. And in the words of Ray Kelly himself, really, one of the reasons they`re being quiet is because this is so critical. Shall we hear that bite from Commissioner Kelly?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: The investigation is going forward aggressively. I`m pleased with how the investigation is going so far. We still have a lot of work to do. We`re -- we`re not in a position to rule anything out. We`re doing a lot of testing. Lab tests are being done. The medical examiner`s office are doing tests for us, our own lab testing material. But I`m encouraged with where we are in the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, he still doesn`t say a whole lot, but at least we finally have something from a police official. I mean, finally, we can now say "person of interest." That is the official status of the bouncer.
Now I want to go to my good friend, former police detective and private investigator Pat Brosnan. You know, I heard someone say today that because the person who ran the bar didn`t tell the truth, that that could have bungled the police investigation. You lose all that time. You lose, what, I mean we`re talking maybe almost a week. How critical would that have been? And do you agree that that could have really hurt the investigation for police?
PAT BROSNAN, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Two answers. First of all, I totally agree that it could hurt the case, and I -- in fact, I suspect that it may have. He had upwards of 168 hours, Littlejohn, to dispose of evidence...
LALAMA: Right.
BROSNAN: ... move material evidence around, fabricate a story. He had time on his hands. Dan Dorian (ph), the manager from the bar, has (INAUDIBLE) had an epiphany relative to the facts as they unfolded at 4:00 AM on the 25th. That -- his material misrepresentation as related to Littlejohn escorting Imette St. Guillen outside the door and then -- evidently, there was a muffled scream heard...
LALAMA: Right. Right. Which was ignored.
BROSNAN: ... which was corroborated by an independent earwitness, OK...
LALAMA: Right. And ignored.
BROSNAN: ... and ignored and misrepresented to the detectives, who they -- who, he, incidentally, underestimated the ferocity and tenacity of the Brooklyn North detectives. They weren`t going to stop.
LALAMA: Right.
BROSNAN: They weren`t going to take his statement at face value. So what you have here, in a strict interpretation of the statute, is a hindering prosecution.
LALAMA: Right.
BROSNAN: That`s what you have.
LALAMA: You know, I want to ask Allan, since you were able to talk to Ray Kelly, could that be obstruction of justice?
CHERNOFF: Well, I didn`t address that with Ray Kelly. I mean, he`s not going to answer that, but...
LALAMA: Yes, he`s not going to go there, clearly, but...
CHERNOFF: ... it clearly sounds like...
LALAMA: You know...
BROSNAN: I happened to review because -- I was a robbery detective, I wasn`t a hindering prosecution detective, but I`ve had a few myself, as well as harboring fugitives and so forth. This is not obstruction, this is a hindering. It fits squarely into the parameters, taking a look at the New York state statutes.
LALAMA: What do you think, Alex Koppelman?
KOPPELMAN: I agree. It sounds like it has hurt the investigation. And what I think is interesting is that -- you know, we`ve been talking about the physical evidence is going to take a while to come back, but where it also may have hurt the investigation -- we`re not hearing -- and the police have been unusually forthcoming in this investigation -- what we`re not hearing is about the quick tests coming back. We`re not hearing that they found blood on the seats, which is a relatively quick test. They have the bouncer`s DNA previously.
LALAMA: Right. Right.
KOPPELMAN: We`re not hearing -- the DNA might take a while, but we`re not hearing whether there have been any blood-type tests. And so clearly, there may be some problems with the investigation caused by this.
LALAMA: You know what? That`s important. Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a big friend of the show, a forensic scientist. You know, the big question is DNA. I`ve covered so many trials over the years. Some of them, it seems like it could take 9, 10 months. I know the Phil Specter case in California, for example, the music legend, you know, it took months and months and months before -- you know, everyone`s, like, What`s going on here? Did they, you know, muck it up? Is there a big mistakes? Sometimes it takes days. What`s critical here? How do we know how to gauge when we`re get this stuff back?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I -- first of all, there`s a big backlog that still exists in this country, and that slows things down. The actual testing itself takes only a couple of days. If you`re going to use the very, very sensitive low-copy-number procedure, that`s another couple of days. And if you have to do that multiple times to make sure that the results are not spurious results...
LALAMA: Yes.
KOBILINSKY: I suspect that they probably are very close. They have the genetic profile of the tissue underneath the fingernails.
LALAMA: OK. OK.
KOBILINSKY: Now, as far as hair goes, they need mitochondrial DNA, which takes much longer, several weeks.
LALAMA: Doctor, let me just interrupt you real quickly. What do you like the best of this evidence? I mean, we`ve got tissue under the nails. What else have we got? Oh, my gosh, the cat hairs. We`ve got potentially semen on the blanket. You know, where do your ears pick up as something that could be solid?
KOBILINSKY: Yes. It`s a good question. The most critical piece of evidence right now is the tissue under her fingernails. We know that the bouncer was scratched on the back of the neck, and that clearly links the owner of that tissue with Imette. And so, unfortunately, very often, this kind of evidence doesn`t provide a great deal of information about the perpetrator. I`m hoping that this case will be a little different, and because of the very sensitive low-copy-number procedures that the medical examiner`s office now uses, they will have a genetic profile on the perpetrator, they will be able to check it against the database.
LALAMA: OK.
KOBILINSKY: And we`ll either see a match or non-match.
LALAMA: OK. Great. Great. Great.
Allan, I got to ask you, you know, for New York City and for Ray Kelly, I mean, this is so high-profile, as we like to say in LA, a high- profile case. You know, it`s not a celebrity, it`s somebody who feels he`s being picked on. We`ve heard people on the streets say, Why are they just looking at this guy? How -- is it like walking on eggshells for Commissioner Kelly in this case?
CHERNOFF: You know, the commissioner of New York City has dealt with a tremendous number of high-profile cases. I mean, yes, we`re giving a lot of attention to this one, but this is New York City, the Big Apple. And unfortunately, we do have a lot of big crimes, and you know, this comes up every year. And we`re...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: ... differently, though? I mean, do you -- because the two guys are here. You live here. Do you see him being -- I don`t know. My experience, cops -- believe me, I know. They have to -- we don`t want to impede the investigation. They don`t want to come out there and make statements. I don`t blame them. Every time I have to ask a cop a question, and he goes, Pat, I can`t answer that, I go, I know, but I have to ask.
But the question is, you know, this is sort of an image thing because people, you know, don`t -- he is -- the bodyguard has made some inferences to being black and being picked on because he`s black. I mean, there could be some tension because of that. I mean, do you -- how about you, Allan?
CHERNOFF: Well, you know, the NYPD certainly has worked very hard to try to reduce any racial tension that may have been out there.
LALAMA: Right.
CHERNOFF: Certainly, that has been an issue historically in New York City, a lot of African-Americans feeling that they were being singled out by the NYPD.
LALAMA: Right. Right.
CHERNOFF: And I think the NYPD really has been working on that, and generally they`ve gotten applause in the city for having improved the situation.
LALAMA: But that -- yes. I`m sorry for interrupting. It sounds like they`re just trying to do the best police work they can do without impeding their investigation, and that`s just to simply to shut up. And who can blame them?
OK, I`ve just got a few minutes before the break. I want to go out to our producer, Rupa, who I believe is front of the person of interest`s house. Let`s make that clear. And you know, Rupa, I was hearing today from published -- or reading today in published reports that this gentleman likes to wear, what, military or law enforcement outfits around the neighborhood. He`s been called a Nazi. Have you been able to confirm any of that?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Pat, hi. Yes, I have been. I`ve been canvassing the neighborhood, walking up and down, knocking on doors, and spoke with a few neighbors. And in fact, I spoke with the Buckners (ph) today, who are quoted, I think, in one of the papers as saying exactly this. They did confirm to me that he does walk around and wear military-type clothing, Army fatigue greens, that sort of thing. And...
LALAMA: But Rupa, you...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: I`m sorry. You`ve never heard -- no one has said that he`s actually referred to himself as an officer of the law, be it federal, state, whatever?
MIKKILINENI: Right. I have not.
LALAMA: Right.
MIKKILINENI: I`ve heard unconfirmed reports, as you have, Pat. But no, none of the neighbors have told me this, just that they`ve seen him wearing the clothing.
LALAMA: OK. And very quickly, I know they were in the house and they brought out some items. Have you been able to glean what they brought out of his house?
MIKKILINENI: What has been confirmed to me by the police is that -- clothing items, and they would not specify what types of clothing, just I know that there have been some reports about socks and this and that. We have not been able to confirm that.
LALAMA: Right. And -- and...
MIKKILINENI: Just -- right. Yes. And the back seat of a van was removed from the house the day before yesterday. And this apparently was in the basement of the house, and this belonged to the silver van that was parked about three blocks away.
LALAMA: Yes. OK, Alex, let`s just -- thank you, Rupa, very much. We`ll probably come back to you.
MIKKILINENI: Sure.
LALAMA: But Alex, just to go over the van business. We`re talking -- it`s a little bit confusing. There`s a gray van. There`s a blue van. You go ahead and explain to us where they were and the importance of this van.
KOPPELMAN: Well, there`s one van that was actually parked in his driveway. There`s another van that is registered to him but was parked a little less than half a mile away, a couple blocks away. I`ve seen different reports. I`m not sure exactly which.
LALAMA: OK.
KOPPELMAN: And one of the vans had had a seat removed from it. That -- that -- the police found that seat in his house, and that`s the one they`ve taken out.
LALAMA: OK. Alex -- well, let`s -- actually, let`s try Allan because I know you can`t stay for our whole show. What might be the significance, very quickly? I think we`ve just got a few seconds to the break -- the significance of that back seat?
CHERNOFF: Really, it`s what they find...
LALAMA: On, yes.
CHERNOFF: ... on the back seat. Of course, the investigators were there at the scene and they`ve, you know, brought it to the laboratory. What they can take out of there, whether it`s hair fragments or whether skin, and then the analysis being done in the laboratory, that`s really where the critical evidence is being picked out right now.
LALAMA: Well, I want to give you the gold star today for getting the comments from Ray Kelly so we could finally now call him something, person of interest.
OK, to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." A legal showdown in the Natalee Holloway missing girl case. Lawyers for the family of chief suspect Joran Van Der Sloot respond to a civil suit Holloway`s parents recently filed against them. The Van Der Sloots ask for a delay of proceedings, and the response challenges New York state Supreme Court as the jurisdiction of the case since Holloway disappeared on a trip to Aruba. The Holloway lawsuit seeks unspecified damages.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it`s about 3:00 AM, the same time that Imette St. Guillen was last seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is not a person that I don`t think is going to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, the problem police may have -- which way did Imette St. Guillen go?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this person is capable of doing whatever sick jollies they get out of this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of side streets and a lot of alleyways is definitely complicating this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re going to do it again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Welcome back. I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. I cannot wait to go to criminal profiler Pat Brown, aside from the fact that you have my name. Pat, I am so interested in this wearing of the military or law enforcement stuff. You know where I`m going with this. What does it tell you?
(LAUGHTER)
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it`s a very interesting thing, Pat, that serial killers -- and we`re not saying that this man is one -- but serial killers have a real love of power and control and authority. They don`t like to give in to authority, but they want to be in authority. And So they have a lot of grandiose thinking going on, and they put themselves in some kind of fantasy world that gives them that power, like comic book heroes, like being part of the CIA or, I`m an FBI agent, or they`d love to be in the military of some sort...
LALAMA: Right.
BROWN: ... and they`ll say, I`ve been in Desert Storm, and whatever else they can conjure up.
LALAMA: It`s a good way to pick up chicks, you know? I mean, it`s impressive, right, essentially?
BROWN: It really does do that, but really, what they`re doing is for themselves. They love to be in that power position...
LALAMA: Right.
BROWN: ... which is why it`s very interesting that, if you look back in a lot of histories of serial killers, you find a lot of them have gone into security work mostly because they can`t get a job as a police officer because they can`t pass the psych test...
LALAMA: Right.
BROWN: ... so they go one level down. And because there are so many -- so much need, such a huge need for security officers, it`s a quite easy job to get. But while most security officers, are wonderful, these guys are attracted to that field, as well.
LALAMA: OK, so it gives that person a sense of esteem, even if it`s a big fairy tale.
BROWN: Absolutely. And serial killers live in a fantasy world. They want that power that they don`t really have in their actual lives.
LALAMA: OK. Great. Pat Brosnan, former LA -- or excuse me -- I`m in New York, I forgot -- NYPD detective and now private investigator...
BROSNAN: No offense taken.
LALAMA: OK. Thank you. Depends on which department you think is better now, but we`ll talk about that later. Now, let me ask you this very quickly. The 911 call -- now, this -- trust me, usually when, you know, a passerby sees a dead body, they call and they`re hyperventilating, and, Oh, my God, I was walking my dog, or, My kid and I were taking a walk, and you won`t -- and they want to talk and they`re -- this guy, There`s a body over on the -- across the something-or-other, and you might want to check it out -- click.
I mean, I -- to me, that was the killer. I don`t know who the killer was, but that was the killer. What do you think?
BROSNAN: I was at that diner, and I was also at the crime scene...
LALAMA: One minute to go, one minute to figure this out for us.
BROSNAN: ... and I got to tell you two things. I agree with you, it`s inconsistent with someone who would have been disturbed by finding this body. But also, from the crime scene to the Lindenwood (ph) diner that had a free pay phone...
LALAMA: Right.
BROSNAN: ... there was two or three other pay phones.
LALAMA: Right.
BROSNAN: It just -- it just doesn`t fit. And certainly, his demeanor and the timbre of his voice and the way he conveyed the message...
LALAMA: Yes, calm, cool.
KOPPELMAN: ... is not -- because it`s very calm, very kind of a calculated, structured call.
LALAMA: Yes. It`s just -- it was just so strange to me because, you know, usually, you want to tell -- you`re so shocked by this, you know, life experience. So...
BROSNAN: 911 calls are almost analogous to kind of being somewhat semi-hysterical.
LALAMA: And -- and...
BROSNAN: They`re very rarely like that.
LALAMA: Exactly! And no doubt, they are analyzing that voice to, what, probably when they did their -- you know, their questioning of him, their...
BROSNAN: One thousand percent, they`re analyzing it.
LALAMA: Yes. That`s going to be really important, too. OK. Thanks, Pat.
To tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Debra LaFave, the former Tampa school teacher facing charges for having sex with a 14-year-old student, back in court today. LaFave appeared before a judge considering a plea deal that would involve three years of house arrest and seven years of sex offender probation. The plea deal was thought out by both sides. That`s because LaFave`s young victim is just not willing to take the stand. Psychiatrists testified that it would be detrimental to the young man`s emotional health if the case were to go to trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Teachers are very special, and we place great trust in them to do what is both morally and ethically right. We may not require perfection, but we certainly do not intend teachers or any other adult to be having sexual relations with our 14-year-old children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAUREEN ST. GUILLEN, IMETTE`S MOTHER: She was a beautiful girl. She was, I mean, beautiful inside, also. She was kind. She was loving. She wouldn`t hurt anyone. And she wouldn`t want anyone else (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Heart-breaking. Welcome back. I`m Pat Lalama, in tonight for Nancy Grace. I want to go right to prosecutor Stacey Honowitz. Stacey, I got a question for you. If you were on this case, if this was going to potentially be your case, would you be running in to the DA, going, Come on, come on, let`s file. We got enough. Great circumstantial case. Or would you be waiting for that physical link, physical evidence link?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think when you talk to the general public, people that aren`t in the courtroom every day or do this work every day, they`re thinking, Come on, quick, charge this guy. It looks like somewhat circumstantial stuff. Certainly, when you`re in this position as the district attorney, you have to be patient and you have to wait because, certainly, you want to make a proper arrest. And I think what the public has to remember is it`s not like "CSI." You don`t get this stuff back in 10 minutes.
LALAMA: Right. Right.
HONOWITZ: You know, we don`t find hairs and we have a report five minutes later.
LALAMA: Yes.
HONOWITZ: So I think what the police are doing, they`re remaining mum about certain things that they should, not to jeopardize the investigation. And let`s wait and see. They`re being methodical. They`re going to the house. They`re taking the evidence that they need. You know, if everything matches up and this is a person that we can arrest, then certainly, it becomes a great case. We have to wait and see.
LALAMA: Yes. You`re right. I mean, television -- it`s so hard. You know, television, un -- non-reality shows don`t help our job in trying to explain to people how things really work in the real world.
Defense attorney Jonna Spilbor, question for you. Is everybody picking on this poor guy, the bouncer? I mean, is it -- is it -- you know, people say, Oh, rush to judgment, why aren`t you talking to other people? I don`t know. I mean, right now, it seems like he`s the one we should be talking to. Is it unfair?
JONNA SPILBOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it does seem like he`s the only one, and that could be a problem if all of these DNA test results and forensics don`t come back as a match. That will be a problem for the police. But for right now, you know, they`re focusing on this guy. He was probably the last one to see her alive. He had some connection with her, and it`s logical that they`re examining him. But they should not close off to other possibilities at this early stage in the investigation.
LALAMA: What would you do if you were his attorney right now? What would you be saying, very quickly?
SPILBOR: You know what I would do? I would give him a lie-detector test in my office, which I`ve done a million times before. The prosecution does not need to know the result of that test. And I want to find out if he`s lying, if he`s telling the truth, if he had any contact with that girl. I would do that privately. That`d be the first thing I`d do.
LALAMA: Right. And it wouldn`t be one conducted by law enforcement exactly?
SPILBOR: No. No. And nobody but me would have to know the results. And if he fails, OK, he fails. It happens all the time. Innocent people fail polygraphs all the time. But if he passed, then we could probably get somewhere in negotiating with the prosecution and the police.
LALAMA: OK, I`m just giving you a few seconds (INAUDIBLE) a few seconds, like five seconds. Would you take this case if it were handed to you?
SPILBOR: Yes.
LALAMA: Why? Real quickly.
SPILBOR: I`m a defense attorney. That`s what I do.
LALAMA: That`s what you do. OK, thanks so much.
We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own way to solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Ivory Green, just 19 years old, missing from Utica, New York, since March 6 of 2006. If you have any information on Ivory Green, please, please call the Utica city police department, 315-735-3301, or go to Beyondmissing.com.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes you think, wonder whether they have anything. Are they just grasping at straws?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s clear that this crime was enacted in a fairly methodical matter, beginning with fear, then torture, and finally sex abuse and death. Unfortunately, they came upon the victim and did what they did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They should be investigating everybody, people that were in the bar, people that worked there, in that vicinity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace.
I want to go to forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Doctor, you know, these guys think they`re so smart, most of the time, but they make a lot of dumb mistakes when it comes to evidence. Do you see any dumb mistakes here?
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, I suspect that one of the reasons that Imette`s hair was cut is that he recognized that he actually had a fingerprint on the tape that was used to cover her head. And, realizing that, he cut her hair to get rid of that evidence. That`s a good possibility.
There are clearly mistakes that people make when they commit crimes. They`re not experts. There may be body fluids. There may be cells which you cannot see with the naked eye. Even if you have a crime scene that a criminal tries to clean up, there is a very good possibility that there`s trace evidence left behind, and good scientific methodology at the crime scene will find that evidence and lead to a suspect.
LALAMA: You know, Doctor, I mean, if there`s potentially semen on a blanket, isn`t he going to think about that? But maybe he`s thinking he`s going to get away with it all. I don`t know. I mean, it`s just -- I guess I`m expecting them to be smarter than they are.
KOBILINSKY: Well, Pat, just finding his semen on a blanket is not necessarily meaningful to the investigation.
LALAMA: Well, that`s true. It doesn`t mean he killed her, necessarily, right.
KOBILINSKY: That`s right. We need to link the victim with the suspect or the suspect with the crime scene. And that`s why I say the most important evidence is either going to be fingerprints or DNA.
LALAMA: Right. Right.
KOBILINSKY: Fingerprints probably don`t exist, because, if they did, he would have already been charged with the murder. So we`re waiting for DNA.
LALAMA: Great. And it`s so important, we know, critical.
Psychotherapist Lauren Howard, do torture killers -- and I`m not talking about the bouncer; let`s just talk generically -- do they start big like this or do they start small, you know, tossing cats out windows and, you know, working their way up?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: A crime of this nature, which is extremely violent and sadistic, does speak to what is called in the parlance anti-social behavior disorder, or otherwise it`s more commonly known as sociopathy.
And a sociopath, in general, the key feature of a sociopath is a lack of conscience and a lack of a range of emotions. And in fact, the sort of one emotion that you`ll often see is rage; another one is anxiety.
But you`re really looking -- in terms of a crime of this nature, there is no question that it was definitely committed by someone who is a sociopath. Now, the thing to know here is not all sociopaths are psychotic. All psychotics tend to be sociopathic, because it is, in fact, an anti-social behavior. An there`s a reckless disregard for the law, for people`s feelings. There is no empathy...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: In other words, in other words -- I`m sorry. In other words what you`re saying is that the rules aren`t for them, essentially.
HOWARD: The rules are not for them. And, you know, and not to turn the criminal into the victim here, but they really have -- they have a missing piece. I mean, they`re really lacking emotional affect. And that allows them to lack empathy, and that`s what creates a kind of sadistic, violent behavior.
This person is a definite sadist who suffers from anti-social personality disorder. There`s no question about that.
LALAMA: Well, you know, that`s very interesting when you say, you know, there`s no empathy. I mean, it`s like so they don`t care.
HOWARD: They don`t.
LALAMA: They`re not mad. They`re not upset about it.
But, to Pat Brosnan, to torture like that is far beyond just, "I`m a drug addict, I need my money, so I`m going to go rob this person." There is something in there to make -- I must, he must be getting something out make -- whoever he is or she -- you know, making someone suffer like that. I mean, you`re a former detective. You`ve seen this. What would come to your mind as someone who does this?
BROSNAN: I wish I could offer an explanation, Pat. It`s beyond me. It`s beyond me how an individual, how a human being could operate in such a capacity, you know, to convey such torture to another human being. I don`t know the answer.
LALAMA: But I think -- I mean, don`t they get some sort of thrill out of it?
Lauren, do you want to respond to that? They get a thrill out of it, don`t they?
HOWARD: Here`s what you`re missing. The emotion that they do have is rage.
LALAMA: Right.
HOWARD: And so that`s the emotion that`s acting out. They have no fear. Therefore, they have no empathy. They`re not afraid of pain. They`re not afraid of punishment. And they lack remorse.
LALAMA: OK. Yes, it`s so fascinating -- this part of it`s so fascinating to me. But now we have to get back to our person of interest, and that`s all he is at this point.
And I want to ask Alex Koppelman, you know, he`s had a long criminal history, this guy. I think we calculated -- isn`t it true, Ellie, that we calculated that he spent since 1980...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty years.
LALAMA: ... 20 years behind bars. OK, give us a little rundown, real quickly. None of it`s been violent crime, that we know, or sexual assault?
KOPPELMAN: Well, it has been -- it`s been armed robbery. It`s been weapons violations. It`s been...
LALAMA: Drugs, right?
KOPPELMAN: It`s been drugs, absolutely. And right now, he`s being held on a parole violation. He was not allowed out past 9:00 p.m. under the conditions of his parole. And obviously, as a bouncer, he was out beyond that.
But I think the thing you have to remember here is those crimes, the robbery, the drugs, the weapons -- and I know Pat Brosnan disagrees with me on this; I was talking about this Monday night on this show -- those aren`t the typical crimes you see in this kind of thing.
That`s not the way these guys tend to work up. They tend to work up with torturing animals, torturing children. There`s no one profile, of course, but that tends to be the one you tend to see.
LALAMA: Pat disagree? Which Pat? Pat Brosnan disagrees -- Pat?
KOPPELMAN: Pat Brosnan.
BROSNAN: Well, Alex, you know, the interesting thing is when you try to pinpoint or categorize this sort of extremely deviant behavior, I think you`re moving into some very unsettled turf, some very strange landscape.
Take the BTK killer, for instance. Here`s a guy who was a law enforcement official. He was a guy with no criminal record -- not even a parking violation -- a pillar of community. And what did he do? He tortured, killed, raped, bound, torture kill, BTK, no less than nine people over the span of two decades.
LALAMA: Wasn`t he a Boy Scout leader?
BROSNAN: He was a Cub Scout leader.
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: Yes, yes.
BROSNAN: You know who turned him in? His older daughter.
LALAMA: His daughter.
BROSNAN: She got the feel for it. She said, "There`s something wrong with Dad."
LALAMA: Can you imagine what that takes to turn in your own father?
Stacey Honowitz -- excuse me if I mispronounce that -- prosecutor, what about the bar owner? You know, if you were involved in this case, would you be going after that guy for obstruction of justice for lying?
HONOWITZ: Well, I think it`s too early on to figure out which way we would proceed, but definitely what your panel talked about in the very beginning, the most crucial thing is it hindered the investigation because of the false information.
And if you can determine that, in fact, it`s false information, if it hindered this investigation, if it stopped these police from garnering more leads or more evidence, then, certainly, I think you would probably have a case against him.
That`s the biggest problem here. What he did, by giving this false information, let everybody kind of sit back, and not rest on their laurels, but didn`t give them time -- gave the suspect, whoever that is, or anybody a time to get rid of crucial evidence.
LALAMA: Well, I mean, what the cops tell me all the time in a case like this, time is of the essence. Every second means so much, especially if you`re looking for physical evidence.
Jonna Spilbor, you want to weigh in on that issue, obstruction of justice? As a defense attorney, how do you see it?
SPILBOR: Yes. Right now, I see it as a red herring. And the reason is, in order for him to be guilty of that, he would have to know that Mr. Littlejohn is actually guilty of something. And since our own NYPD isn`t willing to call the guy a suspect, how could the bar owner possibly know?
So until they can prove that, they can`t get him on the hindering. And right now, it`s a red herring. They don`t need to come down on that guy like a ton of bricks.
LALAMA: OK.
Profiler Pat Brown, I wanted to ask you about the 911 call, that shortness, that not, you know, explaining himself. What was your take on that thing?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I`d have to disagree with you. I actually think that...
LALAMA: Really?
BROWN: ... he`s probably not the killer.
LALAMA: Really? Oh, wow, OK.
BROWN: Yes. Because this killer went to a lot of work to dispose of the body, to make sure that the evidence was not there, to put the body in a place where theoretically nobody was going to stumble over it that quickly. And once you`ve gone to all that work, the last thing you want to do is call in to the police and get them over to pick the body up and find the evidence. So I don`t tend to think that`s true. I think even though...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: But, Pat, but he likes the attention. I mean, he even asked a reporter -- he said, hey -- the one he was interviewing with the "New York Daily News" or that was interviewing him -- he said to her, "Hey, is this going to be in the paper tomorrow?" like, "Me, me, me, I like this attention?
BROWN: Well, it depends if you`re talking about Littlejohn or not. Now, there`s also a confusing thing there. Littlejohn could be a person who exhibits a lot of psychopathic tendencies and he could still not be the guy that committed this crime...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: Right, and we have to remember that. That`s right.
BROWN: It could be for that matter -- exactly. He could have gone on his way and somebody else could have grabbed her. And he just -- he`s a guy that creeps people out but he didn`t do the crime.
The guy who found the body, what makes me think it wasn`t that guy, was that he didn`t give his name obviously, and he`s not going to, because he`s going to become the number-one suspect, if he opens his mouth and gives his name.
LALAMA: Yes, that`s true. Why open that can of worms? Right.
BROWN: And, secondly, we got to look at what kind of guy is over there. Maybe he was doing some drugs himself, and he sees this lumpy thing. And he goes, "Oh, my god. That could be a body. Oh, that`s creepy." He may not have the reaction some of us would have walking our dogs, tripping over a naked woman in the bushes.
LALAMA: Well, that`s...
BROWN: This is a body in a bag.
LALAMA: That`s true.
BROWN: So he gets up and he thinks -- he thinks to himself, "Man, I should call this in. Should I call this in, man? What do I do about this?" And he`s walking, and he`s thinking, and he says, "OK, I`ll just call it in and say, hey, there`s something you ought to go check out."
LALAMA: Yes.
BROWN: I really don`t think this is a guy that did it.
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: OK. Well, you`re the expert. You`re the expert.
But I want to go to -- I`m sorry. Go ahead, Pat, finish your thought.
BROWN: No, I said we`ve got -- right now, we don`t exactly know who it is, and we don`t have the evidence. You were talking about the evidence. We don`t have the evidence yet absolutely pinpointing anything.
LALAMA: OK.
BROWN: We`ve got to find evidence that links exactly one person with the crime scene.
LALAMA: Yes, absolutely.
BROWN: And not things like cat hair, which could have been on the girl anyway, because he was in the bar.
LALAMA: OK, you are right. We`re going to -- we`re very careful about that.
Dr. Kobilinsky, very, very, very quickly -- 30 seconds -- what`s your take on that? I mean, is there anything about that behavior, the 911 call, the fact that the guy, the bouncer, you know, likes to wear military or cop stuff? I mean, so what, right?
KOBILINSKY: Well, all of this is very interesting, but I think we -- again, let`s be very cautious about making assumptions that there`s only one person involved in this crime. There may be a second, and he could have been the caller.
LALAMA: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s horrible. And I feel terrible for her family, and I can`t imagine what they`re going through. And I just hope they find whoever did this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it frightens me. I mean, I know that if I leave a bar alone at night, then I`ve got to be really careful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, I`ve covered lots of cases. Very few shake me up after this much time; this one does.
I`m Pat Lalama sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace.
I want to go back out to Rupa, our producer, who is in Brooklyn -- no, excuse me, Queens. I`ve got to get my boroughs straight, right? She`s in Queens in front of the house belonging to the bouncer.
You know, we`ve been talking about, yes, people have had this and that to say. But, you know, a lot of people have some decent things to say about the bouncer. Would you like to fill us in?
MIKKILINENI: Yes. I mean, I`ve been walking up and down the street, knocking on doors, as I told you before. And people have had some pleasant things to say about him.
In fact, the neighbor across the street, a former correctional officer, runs a business where, during the daytime when she`s not there, she gets packages. And Darryl Littlejohn was kind enough to offer to take her packages in and keep them for her, and then he`d deliver them to her at the end of the day when she got home from work.
LALAMA: Right. So what if he wore police uniforms, right? He seemed like a nice guy.
MIKKILINENI: Exactly.
LALAMA: What`s it like out there? I mean, are there still lots of media? Are people floating around? Or the what`s the mood?
MIKKILINENI: Pat, I tell you, when we arrived here this afternoon, the street was full of media trucks. You can`t believe it, just swamped...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: Are the neighbors upset about that?
MIKKILINENI: Very, very. When I first knocked on doors, they weren`t opening doors for me. It took a while.
LALAMA: All the years of my reporting, I can`t tell you how many people, "Why don`t you guys get out of here? You know, we need our peace." And who can blame them, you know, I mean, really?
MIKKILINENI: Right.
LALAMA: Alex Koppelman, reporter from "Justice" magazine, is it likely that there is DNA already on file of the bouncer of this case?
KOPPELMAN: Absolutely. Mr. Littlejohn was released in 2004 from his latest conviction. And as part of the condition of his parole, he had to give a DNA sample. So the police do have a DNA sample on file, which is part of the reason I said before I think it`s interesting in this case, when the police have been so forthcoming, that we haven`t heard anything about DNA or blood-type matches.
LALAMA: Right. Well, we`re all just waiting for that whole DNA thing.
I want to go back to our former -- I keep wanting to say L.A. -- NYPD police detective and now private investigator. And, you know, we were talking about the whole obstruction of justice thing earlier. Remember, the bar people lied in the beginning, or at least withheld truth.
They told one story. I don`t know if it was a sin of omission, because they actually told a different story. They said, "Oh, she had two drinks. She left." And then they went, "Oops, sorry," and they came in with their lawyer and said, you know, the fact is we had to throw her out, and she was belligerent about it, and then I heard this, you know, scream and a scuffle.
But, Pat Brosnan, can you imagine if somebody had gone back there and said, "Hey, hey, hey. What`s going on here? Who`s yelling?" She might still be alive, if and only if that bouncer turns out to be a real suspect.
BROSNAN: Even if that bouncer doesn`t turn out to be the real suspect, if it was another individual...
LALAMA: Yes.
BROSNAN: ... if they did actually hear that, that muffled scream, and they went out and interjected, she could very well be alive.
LALAMA: All right, now, you wanted to -- you didn`t agree with one of our panelists. You got two minutes, and then I`m going to allow that panelist to respond at some point. But what was it and why?
BROSNAN: On the hindering prosecution in New York State, it`s only one of the fundamental statutory elements is that there`s a deliberate misrepresentation, a deception, which leads to an inability to move forward on an apprehension. It`s laid out right in the law.
So, in other words, if the owner was -- if we were to learn that the owner made a statement that was erroneous, which appears to be the case, misled the investigators, as a result of that, the subject in this matter, the person of interest, was able to conceal, dispose of evidence that we learned later in a hearing in an admission, in a hearing, that is significantly delayed or delayed the moving forward of the arrest in any way, that would be a crime...
LALAMA: OK...
BROSNAN: ... in New York State.
LALAMA: OK. Defense attorney Jonna Spilbor, any comment on that? You`ve got, I don`t know, 35, 40 seconds.
SPILBOR: You know, I respectfully disagree. And even if your panelist is correct, and perhaps he is, we are a long, long way away from that. And I think the first and foremost thing on the NYPD`s docket is going to be finding out who killed her.
And, you know, here`s my theory on the bar owners. These guys didn`t want to get involved. They don`t have to talk to law enforcement under New York law. Once they start talking, they have to be truthful, but they don`t have to talk. They didn`t want to get involved. And that`s how...
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: But they weren`t truthful, Jonna. They weren`t truthful. They weren`t truthful.
SPILBOR: And they will probably say, you know, "We didn`t mean not to be truthful. We couldn`t quite remember. She was one of many patrons in the bar." You know, I just don`t think we need to go there. Let`s find out who killed her.
LALAMA: OK. All right. Good point. I see it from both sides.
Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcements across the country on the lookout for this man, Mark David Keller, wanted in connection with transporting and possessing child porn in the Portland, Oregon, area.
Keller, 45 years old -- sorry about that -- 6`2", 215 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. If you have any info on Mark David Keller, call the FBI at 503-224-4181.
Local news next for some of you. We`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Lita Sullivan Atlanta socialite murder trial 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Stay with us as we remember Private First Class Benjamin C. Schuster. He`s only 21. He died from a gunshot wound in Ramadi, Iraq, on February 25th. Schuster is remembered by his family as always laughing and joking. We remember Benjamin C. Schuster also, as an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. I want to go right out to Rupa, our producer. You`ve spoken, made contact with some family members, Rupa?
MIKKILINENI: Yes, I did, actually yesterday and today, spoke with some family members that are living down in South Carolina. This would be the aunt, the sister that Darryl Littlejohn`s mother is residing with right now. She`s very sick, the mother, Lucille Harris and apparently suffered a heart attack or stroke last year. Yes, and they are devastated. The family is keeping this news from the mother right now...
LALAMA: I can imagine.
MIKKILINENI: ... because she`s so fragile.
LALAMA: Rupa, great job out there. Thanks for giving us a sense of the reality in the field.
I know we have just a little bit of time left. I have this question I got to ask everybody on the panel. We`ll start with Pat Brosnan. I want to know: Does this case require physical evidence to be winnable? Go for it, Pat.
BROSNAN: Yes, unless we get a confession from the subject or a third- party admission from the individuals that he called at 5:00 and 6:00 p.m. from Queens and Brooklyn on the 25th.
LALAMA: OK.
Reporter Alex Koppelman?
KOPPELMAN: Yes, absolutely. He`s got a lawyer now. Any lawyer worth their salt is telling him, "Don`t say anything." You`re not going to see a confession. And I know right now, if I`m on that jury, I`m not voting to convict.
LALAMA: OK, real fast, our prosecutor, where are you? What do you think? Do we need some physical evidence to make this a winnable case?
HONOWITZ: Well, absolutely. It`s a whodunit. I mean, it`s a murder mystery. So you`re going to need physical evidence to link a person to this murder, yes.
LALAMA: Defense attorney Spilbor. What do you think? Could this be a strong circumstantial case?
SPILBOR: Absolutely not. I second Alex`s motion.
LALAMA: OK.
And to our psychotherapist, Lauren -- and, I`m sorry, your last name is just escaping me.
HOWARD: Howard.
LALAMA: Howard, thank you very much. What do you think?
HOWARD: Well, no question. Actually, 3 to 4 percent of the population have anti-social personality disorders. That doesn`t necessarily include this guy. They need physical evidence.
LALAMA: I just -- I don`t know. Am I crazy? I mean, I don`t pretend to be a lawyer, but I`ve covered tons of cases. It looks like, god, it`s strong. But we`ll see. You guys are the experts.
Listen, what a fascinating case, though, huh? I mean, the whole nation is watching this one. And of course, we will stay on it at NANCY GRACE.
I want to thank all my guests tonight. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Pat Lalama graciously -- and hopefully did a good job tonight for Nancy Grace, whom I love. She`s back right here tomorrow night, 8:00 Eastern. Good night. Thanks.
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