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NANCY GRACE

Investigation Into Murder of Imette St. Guillen Continues

Aired March 9, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Investigators working 24/7, day and night, to break the brutal murder case of Imette St. Guillen, a gorgeous grad student getting her master`s in criminal justice and forensic science. Tonight, the person of interest -- person of interest -- the bouncer there at the bar where 24-year-old Imette was last seen now put in a line-up by special police invitation. Why? In yet another sex assault.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news in the New York City grad student assault, torture and murder mystery, a dramatic new twist tonight in the brutal death of raven-haired beauty 24-year-old Imette St. Guillen. Tonight, the bouncer police have under intense scrutiny is put in a police line-up on yet another sex attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The district attorney`s office wants to put him in a line-up concerning a rape that occurred in October.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes you think whether they have anything.

KEVIN O`DONNELL, LITTLEJOHN`S ATTORNEY: I`ve spoken to my client. He absolutely maintains his innocence. He feels that he`s a scapegoat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re just grasping at straws.

O`DONNELL: There was a line-up conducted in which my client, nor was anybody else in the line-up (INAUDIBLE) There are no charges forthcoming concerning the rape that occurred on October 16, 2005.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Nicole Bode. She`s a reporter with "The New York Daily News." Welcome, Nicole. Bring us up to date, friend.

NICOLE BODE, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Thanks, Nancy. Well, today the prosecutors but out Darryl Littlejohn in hopes that he would have a -- make a positive ID when he was brought out on a line-up. Unfortunately for the prosecution, the woman who was involved in the rape in October was unable to pick him positively. As a result, the prosecution has had to go back to the drawing board on this.

GRACE: Now, Nicole -- Nicole, is it Bode or Bode?

BODE: Bode.

GRACE: Thank you. Nicole Bode with us from "The New York Daily News." Nicole, why was he brought into the line-up? What was the evidence against him to suggest he should be in a line-up?

BODE: The circumstantial evidence was that the way that the Imette case was, is that she -- he has a van. There were several cases, including this particular one in Queens, where a man with a blue dark-colored van was pulling women off of the street, raping them, covering their heads in some way, binding their hands and feet with wire, taping them, and then releasing them onto the street, leaving them on the side of the road, very similar to what happened with Imette.

Prosecutors were hoping that they would be able to make the case that he did it this time. It would lead them to believe that he could have been capable of doing it again.

GRACE: Nicole Bode, why couldn`t -- could she not make an identification? Did she say definitely it`s not him? Did she get a good look at the perpetrator?

BODE: According to the defense lawyer -- so obviously, you have to consider the source, but the six men who were there, they were each told to say the words "Shut up" because that`s what was said to her by the man who raped her in October. They stepped forward. Darryl Littlejohn stepped forward. She got a good look at his face. He said the words "Shut up." She got to hear him say it, and she was able to say whether it was him. She said, in fact, that`s not him.

So whether -- you know, whether she did it out of fear or whether she did it because she truly believes this is not him is impossible for anyone to know except her. But she was absolutely unable to make the ID.

GRACE: Unable to make the ID, Nicole? And I don`t want to split -- I don`t want parse words here, but was she unable to make the ID or was she positive it`s not him?

BODE: Well, not having been there, all I can say is that she said it wasn`t him, so...

GRACE: OK. OK. Nicole, was there DNA? Everybody, we are talking about a person of interest, Mr. Littlejohn, a person of interest in the case of a beautiful grad student who went missing, was raped and tortured and murdered here in New York City. This man has been questioned. He has since gotten a lawyer and stopped cooperating. He was called in a line-up for another rape. Was there DNA in that other rape, Nicole?

BODE: To my knowledge, there was not. His DNA, I believe, would have been on record since the first time that he was brought in. He`s been in and out of jail since he was 16 years old. He`s now 41. So they would have had ample DNA with which to make a match. And to this point, even including the Imette St. Guillen, they just have not been able to match it conclusively. They had the skin underneath her nails. They had bodily fluids on the blanket. They just have not been able to make a conclusive match, and as a result, they have not been able to name him a suspect.

GRACE: Wait. You said something very interesting, Nicole, something that forensically stands out to me. You said under her nails, possibly on the blanket -- that blanket had been in the basement of this bar for a really long time, but if there was a rape, where`s the sperm?

BODE: Well, that`s a very good question. One could argue that either he had an accomplice or possibly that it wasn`t even him.

GRACE: Was there sperm? That`s what I`m asking.

BODE: Yes, absolutely. There was, yes.

GRACE: And it doesn`t match...

BODE: And it was no his, yes.

GRACE: OK. Well, you know what? There you have it. This woman is right. It`s not him.

Elizabeth, put the map up. Put the map up of the other -- all three attacks. There`s the Imette case and two others. Nicole, we`ve got a Soho kidnap and rape at Forest Hills, an Elmont. How far away are these from his home?

BODE: Well, he lives in Queens, a short distance from the Elmont location. In the Elmont case, the woman who was taken off the street, that was actually a 15-year-old girl who was grabbed off the street. She said that she remembered being taken for about a half an hour to a home. That could have -- it could have approximately lined up with his home, if, in fact, he was the one who did it. But again, no one who has seen him on a line-up -- this woman who was the Forest Hills victim -- she was not -- you know, she said it wasn`t him, so we have nothing yet linking him to the case.

GRACE: Yes, well, the DNA says it all, Nicole. Take a listen to what his defense lawyer had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Police are under a tremendous amount of pressure to solve this crime, and because he was there that night and because of his extensive record -- which includes no history whatsoever of abuse towards women, none whatsoever, Which is unusual for a 42-year-old man to start doing something of this nature.

I commend the police department for conducting a fair line-up. My client is happy that the police department have been treating him fairly. He has nothing to hide. He has no information to add about the murder that occurred from that night in Manhattan at The Falls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Nicole Bode with "The New York Daily News." What can you tell us about his previous history? Littlejohn`s previous assaults, his previous seven felony convictions, were any of them violent?

BODE: Absolutely not. The lawyer was correct in saying that this has never involved violence, particularly violence against women. When he was 16...

GRACE: Nicole, what about the armed robbery, a bank robbery at gunpoint?

BODE: As far as I know, the gun was never discharged. He has been taken in for several armed robberies. He`s been taken in for drugs. But in none of these cases, to my knowledge, has he ever had any kind of physical assault, particularly any physical assault towards women.

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst in LA -- Bethany, I just can`t but believe pulling a gun on a bank teller -- it`s not considered violent?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, OK, let`s take a look at what we know about sadistic rapists. What happens is, they use extreme cruelty in order to enhance their sexual arousal, so torturing the woman, anal mutilation, looking at the fear in her eyes -- they all excite and arouse the sexual sadist and rapist. So what you have to take a look at -- oh, the other thing is that this is the most premeditated of all sex crimes. So a lot of times, these sadistic rapists think and think and think about it before they finally do it. So the fact that this is the first time this has popped up for him doesn`t mean that he hasn`t been thinking about it for a long, long time.

So what I would want to know is, Does he have a bondage kit at his house? Does he have bondage-related paraphernalia? Also, one other quick thing is that these the sadistic rapists confuse aggression and sexuality. So you`d want to know, Does he have an anger and rage problem, and does he use rage in the service of sexual excitement? You`d want to figure that out in an interview with this guy.

GRACE: But I want to go back, Bethany, to the fact that someone would pull a gun on a bank teller. That`s not violent? And he had two armed robberies.

MARSHALL: It`s totally violent. I mean, it really paints the picture of somebody who not only has disregard for the rules of society, is a sociopath or a psychopath, but somebody who actually might get pleasure at seeing the pain in another person`s eyes, gets pleasure at an act of violence. And this does fit the profile of...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, would that go along, Bethany with the fact that there may be no sperm?

MARSHALL: Oh, here`s the thing that`s so important about that. Sadistic rapists -- they often work themselves into such a frenzy that they have delayed or retarded ejaculation. So sometimes, you really don`t see semen right on the body. It may be at the scene, in the same room, a half a block away, somewhere around the victim, but not really on the victim.

GRACE: OK. I`ll keep that in mind. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.

MARSHALL: FYI.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Good to know. Let`s go straight out to our producer, Rupa Mikkilineni. She is standing by on location tonight where Imette -- excuse me, in front of the bar, right, Rupa?

RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, I am, Nancy.

GRACE: Rupa, what have you learned in and around the neighborhood?

MIKKILINENI: Basically, Nancy, this is a very swank, trendy neighborhood, Soho. We walked into the bar tonight around 7:00 o`clock, which should have been about happy hour time -- completely empty. And you know, people are going about their own business around here, walking, rushing to where they need to get to. We walked into the bar, spoke with the bartender. There was not one customer in there. And the bartender -- I only asked him about the wine list, Nancy, and he said, No comment.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Hey, Rupa, question. Did you speak to neighbors in and around where he lives?

MIKKILINENI: I did. Yes. Darryl Littlejohn`s neighborhood, I did. And I tell you, a lot of folks had some nice things to say about him. I mean, they did confirm to me that his neighborhood nickname was the Nazi because...

GRACE: OK, hold on, Rupa.

MIKKILINENI: Yes?

GRACE: Rupa, you just said they said nice things. Now you`re telling me his nickname is the Nazi. OK, which one is it?

MIKKILINENI: Well, they said that he was a nice, friendly guy that helped the neighbors out. However, they also said that they called him the Nazi, they`d make fun of him because he was wearing fatigues, military uniforms, which is kind of weird.

GRACE: OK. Sources have reported that he has been seen in FBI jackets, hats that say police, that he would have handcuffs dangling off of his belt or waist. What would that suggest, Bethany Marshall?

MARSHALL: Well, psychopaths relate on the basis of power, rather than affection, so they bolster themselves with power. And also, you think about the fact that all the aggression creates the sexual excitement. That`s what you see in the crime. So in my mind, this fits the profile of somebody who could commit a crime, but then he`s walking around the neighborhood, trying to get people to admire him, so that`s what might make him seem nice at a very superficial level, but deep down, you know, he really likes those handcuffs.

GRACE: Back to Rupa, our producer there outside The Falls restaurant and bar. That is where Imette St. Guillen last seen alive -- Rupa Mikkilineni. Rupa, you`ve also talked to Littlejohn`s family, the person of interest being held back at Rikers tonight, not necessarily on this case, they say for parole violations. What did his family have to say, Rupa?

MIKKILINENI: I spoke to his aunt, who is staying with his mother down in South Carolina. His mother is quite ill. They`re trying to keep this information from her and protect her, of course. And essentially, they said that this is absolutely out of his character, Nancy, completely. He has never raised his hand to a woman in his life. He is not a violent man. They are shocked, and they insist that this is just not him.

GRACE: They`re shocked. They`re shocked. OK.

To Joe Lawless, defense attorney. No offense, Joe, but have you ever had many clients` families who weren`t shocked?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. And actually...

GRACE: They`re always shocked! They`re always shocked! Joe, Joe, this guy in 26 years has been behind bars for 20 years, and the family`s shocked?

LAWLESS: Well, that`s the sad part about doing what I do for a living, Nancy. You do see that side of it.

But what I`m hearing is interesting because everyone`s looking for, you know, the solid, the DNA evidence, all this forensic stuff. There`s a pretty interesting circumstantial case against this guy. There`s evidence that carpet fibers in his home or that -- or like carpet fibers in his home were found on tape found at the scene. There`s a lot of circumstantial evidence there that 20 years ago, when I was a prosecutor, would be all you had to try somebody in a case like this.

He`s the last one seen with her. He owns the van. If carpet fibers from the rug match the carpet fibers at the scene, you can have a circumstantial case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It gave us all a jolt, kind of and awakening that, you know, this could happen to any of us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It kind of -- you know, it`s scary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just hope they find whoever did this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it frightens me. I mean, I know that if I leave a bar alone at night, I`ve got to be really careful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Imette was a very honorable girl, a very focused individual, someone who was full of life and full of energy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. A beautiful grad student here in New York, out having a good time, minding her own business, leaves a local bar, never seen again. Her body turns up basically wrapped like a mummy, tortured, raped and murdered, thrown to the side of a road. We are on the case of Imette St. Guillen. Thank you for being with us.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a face you know well, forensic scientist who actually teaches at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, where Imette was a grad student. Does it disturb you, Dr. Kobilinsky, that they were saying the DNA is inconclusive? And we`ve got DNA, we believe, under her fingernails where she fought. I know she had broken fingernails. But where`s the sperm? If this was a rape, where`s the sperm to make that DNA match? We need that!

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Let me answer that question very quickly. In the Elmont rape of that 15-year-old, the victim was forced to shower to remove physical evidence. In the rape of the 22- year-old in Queens, the victim was forced to wipe herself, clean herself with baby wipes. There`s indications that in the case of Imette St. Guillen, her body was cleaned off, so that any semen evidence would be removed.

As far as the DNA under the fingernails, I had predicted that this might happen. There may very well be a small amount of the perpetrator`s DNA under her fingernails, but it`s swamped out by her own DNA. And this is very commonly found when you do the analysis.

What they have to do now is some further testing using what we call Y- chromosome STRs, and perhaps other DNA on her body in very trace amounts. Even though he cleaned her up, he may have left some over. We use low-copy DNA methodology, which the medical examiner`s office is doing now. And I think that this will not be inconclusive.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me get something straight, Dr. Kobilinsky. Take a look at this map. Thanks, Elizabeth. You`ve got the Soho attack, the Forest Hills attack, the Elmont attack. You`re saying that we know that two of these rape victims were forced to clean up and shower afterwards?

KOBILINSKY: That is correct. This is what we call the "CSI" effect...

GRACE: OK, you know what? Wait a minute. Bethany Marshall, what is that? Now the whole thing about no sperm is starting to make sense. A guy that keeps handiwipes ready for his next rape would naturally have condoms.

MARSHALL: Oh, well, but think about the huge amount of premeditation that goes into this kind of a sex crime. I mean, thinking about committing the crime is probably a part of a masturbatory ritual for this guy that`s gone on and on and on. So he`s thought of every aspect not only of how to commit the crime, how titillating it`ll be, but how to clean up afterwards. So the two possibilities, of course, is he destroyed the evidence by making her -- cleaning her off or the delayed ejaculation that comes from all that rage and anxiety, and either one could be true.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler. What type of a criminal mind forces a rape victim to wipe down with handiwipes, carries them along for the crime?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Nancy, I think we have probably heard just about the finest psychoanalyzing I`ve heard about a serial killer from our other guest. She has really pinpointed exactly the type of guy who does this. He`s had it in his mind what he wants to do. He`s planned it out, and he`s working through his ways of doing things.

I want to point out that Woody Allen recently put out a movie, a very intriguing movie called "Match Point," which is about a murder. And one of the questions in the movie is, Is it better to be lucky, or is it better to be good? And that`s a good question in these cases. A lot of times, the guys try to be good, but if they`re really lucky, they get away with it. Now, we`re looking at a particular issue here with Littlejohn. He hasn`t been all that good because he`s been arrested five times and put away, so is he lucky or is he good? And is this even the guy, or is it some other lucky guy who`s had Littlejohn as some poor schmuck...

GRACE: You know, you`re right...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: ... wrong place at the wrong time.

GRACE: Right now, Pat Brown, who is keeping her mind open to all possibilities, as she should -- this guy has not been named a suspect. Yes, a lot of evidence looks bad for him, but if he`s not the right guy, that simply means the right guy is on the loose tonight.

Very quickly to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." The widow you met here on our show, the widow of a Long Island banker slain by a police impersonator, breaks down in tears. Elizabeth Gottlieb (ph), waiting for her husband, James, to come home from work -- he never came. A police impersonator, Reginald Gause (ph), now on trial for murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can just imagine what happened that night. I go over it and over it in my mind. And every time I drive past there, I can`t help but think about it. I couldn`t be there with him. I could imagine his struggle. I can imagine him bleeding. And it just terrifies me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: We`re doing the DNA testing and we`re doing the testing of materials to see if certain materials match up materials taken from one location. Do they match some items that may have been found on the body or near the body? So that sort of testing is going forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go straight back out to our producer, Rupa Mikkilineni, standing by at The Falls restaurant. You know what`s amazing to me is that this girl is missing, her body is found, tortured and mutilated, wrapped up like a mummy, dead, and people still stick to their original stories for a period of time, that she just wandered off into the night. Half the cabbies in the city were looked at as potential suspects until someone finally said, Well, actually, there was a scuffle with the bouncer, and we think we heard a muffled scream. Rupa, a week went by before the bar staff came forward!

MIKKILINENI: Yes. This is true. And I tell you, I have...

GRACE: Go ahead, Rupa.

MIKKILINENI: OK.

GRACE: I`m asking, are police considering any charges against bar employees who didn`t tell the truth?

MIKKILINENI: I talked with the police today about this, and when I asked exactly this question, Nancy, they said, No comment.

GRACE: No comment. So they wouldn`t say yes or no? Why not?

MIKKILINENI: Exactly.

GRACE: Why not just tell us the truth? And what about them employing a seven-time convicted felon? I mean, Ellie (ph), here on the set, looked up the actual law, the regulation forbidding that. To you, Rupa.

MIKKILINENI: Oh, sorry. Yes, I know. So it looks like, basically, they`ve lawyered up. They have two lawyers. The Dorrians, that is. And essentially, they are not commenting. They are not returning my phone calls. They have not responded at all to this. And essentially, they`re protecting themselves, Nancy, so...

GRACE: To Nicole Bode with "The New York Daily News." Nicole, a week went by. Imagine how much forensic evidence may have been lost during that time, while the bar employees got their story straight.

BODE: Well, it started at the top. You know, the bar employees, you know, whether or not any of them would have come forward without permission of the bar owner, Danny Dorrian, who is the son of the bar owner for Dorrian`s Red Hand, which is where, you know, the preppy killer, Robert Chambers, met his victim -- he had been the first to conceal evidence. So it`s very possible that he put an order to all of them that said that, you know, Don`t talk to cops, you know, until I say so.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN O`DONNELL, LITTLEJOHN`S ATTORNEY: Is he ever going to get a fair trial in this city, in this state, even in this country. Pictures everywhere. Look at this (INAUDIBLE). He`s considered an animal throughout not only New York but I would guess the rest of the country as well. His face is all over the place. He`s a likely target. Ray Charles could pick him out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: He`s talking about his client, Mr. Littlejohn not a suspect in the case of Imette St. Guillen, a grad student who went missing, her body found tortured and killed on the side of the road. To Lisa Wayne, veteran defense attorney. Now we know that in another rape case, he was called in on a lineup today and the rape victim did not identify him. Now, what are the rights, trial 101 also, no obstruction of justice when witnesses are asked to tell police what they know and they don`t tell the truth? Isn`t it the reality that, one, Littlejohn has rights at the lineup and two, just don`t talk to the police but if you talk to them, don`t lie Lisa

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree that`s what every defense lawyer in the country wishes that people would not, when they get arrested or they are under scrutiny or they`re a person of interest, that they don`t talk because even those who are making statements that are truthful can be twisted and turned around and may be inconsistent with something down the line. The best thing is to leave it alone. Let your lawyer do the talking for you.

GRACE: Well, I`m talking specifically about the people at the bar. First they talked to police. Then a week later, they suddenly remembered Imette left the bar with this guy, walked out with him. There was a scuffle and a muffled scream.

WAYNE: Right. Well, it`s interesting to find out exactly what`s being said amongst the employees and the boss. But again, the boss is looking at liability. He`s looking at issues of are they going to come after him because he employed this guy who was a felon and that`s a crime and he knows that and he can be liable for a lot of things. So he may be hiding that. They may be covering themselves for a lot of different reasons that have nothing to do with whether Littlejohn committed this crime.

GRACE: And to Joe Lawless, veteran defense attorney. What rights does a criminal suspect, a person of interest have at a lineup? There are constitutional rights at a lineup.

LAWLESS: Well, a criminal suspect in a lineup has the right to have counsel there. The counsel has the right to object to the nature of the lineup. If you have four guys that are 5`2" and one guy who is 6`4", you can make the objections to the lineup and you can monitor how it`s done. There are certain things the police can and can`t do. It sounds to me like in this instance, anyway, he got a fair lineup. The witnesses at the bar not talking about what they saw and not talking at the instruction of the owner of the bar, that to me is coming frightening close to obstruction of justice.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, let`s go back to what we know tonight about the evidence and I`ve always determined that in murder cases you get the most evidence from the body itself, from Imette herself, what can she tell us?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think there are a lot of things. First of all, we know that a white sock was stuffed down her throat. If that was a sock that the perpetrator wore, there can be skin cells this are sloughed off. In fact, if the perpetrator touched her or touched the plastic ties that were used to bind her wrists or the shoe laces that were used to bind her ankles, that may contain what we call touch DNA, which is DNA left behind when your fingertips touches an object. So that may be critical. There may be saliva on the body. There may be semen, although it was cleaned off. There may be trace DNA evidence. So there`s a number of things. And you know, fingerprints I suspect are not there. I think he was smart enough, whoever did this, to remove any kind of obvious evidence. Again, I go back to the CSI effect. Criminals learn what law enforcement can do. They learn it on television. They learn it in movies and they protect themselves. Why, after all, would the back seat of the Windstar van be removed from the vehicle and in the basement of the bouncer? That`s a question.

GRACE: Yeah. I don`t think anybody on the panel tonight or anybody on the floor has the car seat ripped out of the car and in their apartment. OK? Now, I`m sure, Rupa, that police have seized those seats, correct?

MIKKILINENI: hey have.

GRACE: That`s good to know. Did they mention anything about a white sock being retrieved from not a suspect`s home?

MIKKILINENI: They have not confirmed particular items. They have only said to me the items of clothing had been removed from the house.

GRACE: That brings me to the issue of fibers, fiber evidence. You all remember the case, the notorious case of Wayne Williams out of the city of Atlanta, one the first serial, the first serial murder case ever to use fiber evidence to prove a crime. In that case a series of little boys had been molested and murdered. The carpet fibers in his car matched carpet fibers on the boys` bodies. Let`s talk about fiber evidence. To Pat Brown. What is it and how do we use it?

BROWN: Well, that gets really tricky, Nancy. In theory, carpet fibers should be good because then you can exactly say this matches this. But one problem is a lot of times there`s a lot of carpet fibers that are in everybody`s cars and in everybody`s houses, so you have a carpet fiber that is like many other people`s carpet fibers, so you can`t pinpoint it to one person. Then it gets worse. We have the case of Karl Roush (ph) down in Spotsylvania, Virginia. This was a 1996 case of the murder of Sophia silver, a lovely 16-year-old girl. He was brought in and the carpet fibers nailed him right to it and then they found out that the people doing the work down in the Virginia crime lab kind of messed it up. So then he was - - it was found out it was not actually the right carpet fibers. So carpet fibers are kind of good, but they are not going to nail them to the wall with it.

GRACE: And how do you compare it, Dr. Kobilinsky?

KOBILINSKY: First of all, there are class characteristics, the color of the fibers, the length of the fibers, whether they are natural or synthetic, but then there are the very unique microscopic elements, and that is what got Wayne Williams, the microscopy of the cross section of those carpet fibers. If these fibers are unique, that will nail him. I`ll tell you something else, the aunt Addie Harris revealed today on one of the networks that there was indeed a red carpet in the home.

GRACE: Another thing about carpet fibers and I agree with Pat Brown, everybody, Pat brown, very high profile criminal profiler. Dr. Kobilinsky, the thing about carpet fibers is, though, if it`s out of your home or out of your car, very often with cars, it can go to the make, the model, the manufacturer in which that fiber was used, that carpet was used, the year that fiber was used in that car. I mean, you can get certain specifics and it`s just more circumstantial evidence.

KOBILINSKY: If it`s a unique fiber, they can dot same thing with carpet fibers as they did in Wayne Williams. There was a tri-lobed configuration that was very unusual. They were able to trace it back to the manufacturer. Very few of those carpets were sold. There was a geographic distribution. They may be able to do the same thing here. I`m not sure but it`s a possibility.

GRACE: Back to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, you know, I`ve read a million books on various serial killers and criminals and when you talk to their family and their neighbors, they say things like he was such a nice boy. He was a little bit of a loner. Why is it? It`s so difficult I think for family and neighbors to believe that someone they took into their bosom could do such a thing? Explain.

MARSHALL: It`s hard to imagine that anybody could commit such a horrific crime. It`s hard to imagine that an individual could be this disturbed, because although this isn`t formally mental illness, this is certainly profound personality disturbance, but family members don`t want to think that one of their own could do anything wrong. They are very protective. And not only that, but they collude with the perpetrators of the crime and they cover up and they cover up and they enable the perpetrator to go on and on and engage in more acts. So family members need to really sort of examine their own motivations when somebody in their family is charged. One of your own family members could do it.

GRACE: And to Nicole Bode with the "New York Daily News," How long can Littlejohn be held on Rikers? How long can they hold him on a probation violation?

BODE: For violating his probation he could be held for up to 90 days so they do have a pretty sizable amount of time to hold him legally before they`re going to have to let him back out onto the street. He should have told his probation officer that he had a job. He was not allowed to have a job that kept him out of the house after his curfew which was I believe was around 9:00 p.m. So any job working at a bar, closing time, up to 4:00 p.m., I`m sorry, 4:00 a.m., was completely out of bounds. In addition, he lied to his probation officer. He told him he was working for a mortgage brokerage. So he completely covered up what he was actually doing.

GRACE: Some mortgage brokerage. One more thing, Nicole, before we totally come down on the bar, we also know this guy had how many aliases? He had five or seven.

BODE: At least five.

GRACE: At least five aliases. How can you prove that the bar knew this guy had a record? Or is it their duty to learn he has a record, Nicole?

BODE: Well, one would hope that if they are going to have someone in their employment they are going to be paying that they would make it their business to find out what his criminal history is. If the news had such an easy time of finding it out, one would hope that the bar owner whose job it is to find this stuff out would have been able to do so, especially one as well-known as the Dorrian family. It`s not like they are novices at this. They have had bars in New York City for decades. They know what they`re doing.

GRACE: Yeah. I think we all have access to Yahoo! and Google. Nicole, you`re absolutely correct on that. Everybody, we`ll be back on Imette`s story tomorrow night. I guarantee you this is going to come down to a matter of forensics, how well the crime scene and her body has been processed.

Very quickly to tonight`s case alert, let`s report some good news tonight. Finally justice tonight, formal charges in a string of Alabama church fires. Ben Moseley, Russell Debusk, both 19. Matthew Lee Cloyd, 20, suspected in nine fires, now charged with conspiracy and arson. If convicted they face a minimum of five years on each count.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These cruel and senseless acts of destruction have profoundly touched our college community. For there once existed such a clear line between the harmless and playful and the harmful and cruel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES PRESTWOOD, FORMER ENRON EMPLOYEE: ... for Enron and the predecessor for 33 1/2 years, $1,310,507.17. When I retired on October 1st of 2000, which is when I was 62 years old, that`s what I had in stock. And about a year later, it was worth $3600. I still get my little pension, my little monthly check, and I get my Social Security, and that`s it. My lifestyle has turned 180 degrees. Because when I retired, I had great plans of maybe doing a little traveling, seeing a little bit of this old beautiful USA. Now I can`t even go to the county line unless I make a loan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Senior citizen Charles Prestwood worked for years for Enron. They basically stole his pension. He has nothing left. He is with us tonight. First to Mimi Schwartz, executive editor with "Texas Monthly." What happened with Enron today in court?

MIMI SCHWARTZ, TEXAS MONTHLY: Well, it was an interesting day in court. I think if you were there for the last two days, you might have felt that that Fastow had done a very good job damaging the defendant`s case. But I thought today the defense scored some points. I think Petracelli (ph) chipped away at Fastow`s testimony to the point where I think is going to be very hard for the jury to figure out when he was telling the truth and when he wasn`t.

GRACE: What was the gist of the testimony today?

SCHWARTZ: The testimony today had to do with various assets. It was a little more complex than yesterday and the sale of various assets. Basically, the most important thing is that Petracelli cast doubt on the validity of the famous global Galactica document where Fastow insists that he had the approval of Rick Causey and Jeff Skilling tacitly to go ahead and make all these side deals and there was a promise that he`d never lose money.

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Mimi. I think I see the defendants coming into court right now. There they are. Oh, and they are giving a statement for the press. Oh, no. That`s just a pig at the trough. Let`s go straight out to Mr. Charles Prestwood, former employee, victim of Enron. Mr. Prestwood, what happened to your retirement?

PRESTWOOD: Ma`am, I had everything in Enron stock like we were advised to do, you know, because you take us old working people. We wasn`t too enthused about any type of, you know, separating it out and diversifying and stuff because the money we were making on our stock, you couldn`t make it nowhere else, you know, and we thought that this was the greatest company in the world, you know, because it`s a company that we worked from day one and helped build. And that is what is so despairing about us old retirees about our lives is when we look back, like myself, I can look back and see 33 1/2 years, it`s just one big void in my life, you know, the things that I strived and worked so hard for and saved all of my life, you know, and then it was just totally destroyed in just a matter of months.

GRACE: Russ Alba, corporate securities, mergers and acquisitions attorney, that`s certainly a mouthful, Mr. Alba, but that is how he describes himself, corporate securities, mergers, and acquisitions attorney. OK, Russ Alba, when you hear people like Charles Prestwood, how is it that companies can just flat out lie about the position of their stocks and what they are worth.

RUSS ALBA, CORPORATE SECURITIES LAWYER: Needless to say that`s against the law. And this is a case that addresses that very violation of the law. Most of the counts, Jeff Skilling faces 31 counts, Ken Lay faces seven counts on his indictment. Most of those are for securities frauds, for making false statements even to analysts or in their SEC reports.

GRACE: Very quickly, everyone. We`ll all be back on the Enron case.

To tonight`s all points bulletin, law enforcement on the lookout for Ernest Edgar Thomas Jr., convicted felon, child predator wanted in connection with the sex abuse of a six-year-old Pennsylvania girl. Thomas is 47, 6 feet, 180 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. If you have info on Ernest Edgar Thomas Jr., call the FBI, 215-418-4,000. Local news next for some of you but we`ll all be right back and remember, verdict watch in the Atlanta socialite murder trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Please stay with us as we stop to remember Marine Second Lieutenant Almar Fitzgerald, 23, Lexington, South Carolina, killed when a bomb detonated in combat, Rimadi, Iraq. Fitzgerald loved football. He played on his high school team. He was a Marine heart and soul. He dreamed of joining the FBI. Almar Fitzgerald, Marine, American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNN BREWER, FMR ENRON EMPLOYEE & WHISTLEBLOWER: We loved the company and we loved Enron. We are blind sided by this event. We walked away with the company where we`ve lost our jobs. We`ve lost our income stream. Most of us have lost our entire retirement, everything in the 401k. We have hardly anything left in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: She`s certainly not the only one. The Enron trial going on right now, the so called pension pirates. To Lynn brewer, a former Enron employee and whistle blower. Now that takes some guts. Lynn Brewer, when did you first discover a problem? What did you do?

BREWER: Within about six months of my employment, so this would have been November of 1998, I discovered bank fraud to the tune of a quarter billion dollars, in loans taken out by Enron.

GRACE: It kind of got to me a little bit.

BREWER: Secured by gas at an underground storage facility that the gas did not exist so I went to my supervisor and explained to her what the problem was. Now I was hired to brief Andy Fastow`s deal for senior management and the board of directors and was told to cover it up.

GRACE: You know, Mr. Prestwood, when you hear they directed people like Lynn Brewer to lie, how does that make you feel?

PRESTWOOD: Ma`am, I tell you what, that makes you kind of feel like a gut shot grizzly. In other words, you don`t have to look around, pick out nobody to be particularly mad at. You are just mad at the world. Things like that would go on.

GRACE: Mr. Prestwood, how old are you?

PRESTWOOD: I`m 67. I`ll be 68 in September.

GRACE: Are you going to have to go back to work full time?

PRESTWOOD: No, ma`am. I can`t go back to work on account of my health.

GRACE: That`s right, your heart.

PRESTWOOD: I`ve got heart problems. There wouldn`t be nobody would hire me anyhow. I hope and pray that I can just make it somehow, you know.

GRACE: I do too. I do too. Thank you, Mr. Prestwood. And thank you to all of our guests tonight, but our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. Tonight, a special tribute to Watchung, New Jersey police officer, Matthew Melchionda, killed last night in a car crash while pursuing another vehicle. He`s the first police officer to be killed in the line of duty in Somerset County in eight years. Our prayers tonight with his family. His brother also a cop. I`m Nancy Grace signing of for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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