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Iraqi Government Split Over Next Prime Minister; U.K. Announces Reduction of Troop Levels in Iraq; Slobodan Milosevic's Final Autopsy Results Due This Week

Aired March 13, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Which way forward? Iraq struggles to form a government, including the all-important question of who will lead the way. We'll talk exclusively to the man in that role at the moment.
JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Jailhouse mystery. Questions linger and abound about Slobodan Milosevic's death just as his long trial was supposed to be nearing an end.

VERJEE: And in the U.S., Tornado Alley lives up to its name. People there think about those terrible storms a lot, but they say they are hard to imagine until you're in one.

It's 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad, 6:00 p.m. at The Hague.

I'm Zain Verjee.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy.

Welcome to our viewers around the globe. This is CNN International, and this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

VERJEE: Polarized over the prime minister in Iraq, the deepening rift over who should get that post is paralyzing parliament. Interim prime minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari is looking to secure a full four- year term despite some strong objections from some Sunnis and Kurds. He sat down with our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, for an exclusive interview, and Nic joins us now from Baghdad.

Nic, what did he tell you?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Zain, the first thing I wanted to find out from Mr. Jaafari is would he step aside in his nomination for prime minister if he thought that that was going to stymie forming a new government. He said that his party had nominated him -- or his political bloc had nominated him through the constitutional process, that he was popular with the people, that unless the people told him to stand down, then he would continue with his nomination. He didn't give me a hard yes, and he didn't give me a hard no, but he certainly gave an indication he fully intends at this moment to stay as the nominee from his political bloc for prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) IBRAHIM AL-JAAFARI, INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I stand by my position, because it was a position that was popularly elected and within constitutional law. I stand by it.

ROBERTSON: But you're saying the Iraqi people do support you, the polls show that.

AL-JAAFARI (through translator): Yes, yes. And you can check on the Internet on some of the polling sites -- rather all, and you will see it for yourself. And I was nominated by the United Iraqi Alliance.

What does it is mean that the UIA controls the majority of parliament? It was the choice of the people. And the UIA chose my name. Had they chosen another person, I would have fully supported him.

My support of the UIA, my support of the constitution, my support of the people is not because they chose me. It would have been the same had they chosen someone else. I support the desire of the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, I asked Mr. Jaafari how long he thought it would be before the new government's formed. He said if everybody, if all the politicians agree to follow the constitution that he talked about so much in this interview, then he said it could take a month. If they don't, he said, essentially if they continue to challenge his nomination as prime minister, he said it could take much longer -- Zain.

VERJEE: Did he say how he would end sectarian violence in Iraq?

ROBERTSON: He didn't, but he certainly indicated that sectarian violence is causing as many deaths, casualties and injuries here in Iraq, if not more, than the ongoing insurgency. He said that it was the same hand that was causing this violence in Iraq, pointing the finger towards the Sunnis. But he indicated that -- that the situation here was getting worse.

He said, is this -- can you call it a civil war at the moment? He said, no, but he certainly didn't provide a solution, a roadmap, to ending that violence -- Zain.

VERJEE: Does he believe or did he admit to you that his own interior ministry may be responsible for the deaths and the killings of Sunnis?

ROBERTSON: No, he didn't. When I -- when I asked him about the -- the concerns of Sunnis that -- that the Interior Ministry here, the Shiah-led Interior Ministry is running death squads that are killing Sunnis, that's something that he says is not happening.

He points the blame, the violence in Iraq at the moment, on Sunnis. He said it's not -- it's not Sunnis killing Shias, it's not Shias killing Sunnis, but it is -- it is violence caused by an insurgency, and a Sunni insurgency at that -- Zain.

VERJEE: CNN's senior international correspondent reporting to us from Baghdad, Nic Robertson.

Thanks, Nic -- Jim.

CLANCY: Well, in the view of Washington, nothing is more important to its operations in Iraq than this coalition of the willing. And it would seem that today there was an announcement, a major announcement coming from Britain that says that coalition is going to get even a little bit smaller.

Defense Secretary John Reid announcing the U.K. plans to cut its forces by 10 percent. That will send home some 800 troops by May.

Is it the beginning of a full-scale withdrawal?

Our European political editor, Robin Oakley, covering this from London.

Robin, how did it look today?

ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR: Well, Jim, one thing it certainly isn't is the beginning of a handover to the Iraqis. That is still some way off.

What John Reid said today was that he was making the latest announcement of troop rotations, new groups, new battle groups and others going out to Iraq. And as part of that, he said he was able to reflect the better situation, the better training, the better numbers, the better morale of the Iraqi security forces.

He said the last time he'd made an announcement of this kind back in October, there were 190,000 in the Iraqi security forces. Now, he said, there were 235,000. And they were in a better state to do a better job of work themselves.

So that meant there could be some small scaling down of the British troop numbers, but as you said, it's only 10 percent of the troop numbers there. It will bring them down to 7,000 men, which, compared with the high point back in 2003 of 10,000, is a reduction of 3,000. But it's still small steps -- Jim.

CLANCY: You know, Robin -- and I want to take advantage of your extended political experience here covering stories like this -- this kind of a withdrawal, this kind of announcement, does have the effect, just as you noted, of saying we are accomplishing something here, and, look, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Whether they are announcing when that light's going to be shut off or when they are going to arrive at it, isn't really as important as giving this -- this appearance of some progress.

OAKLEY: Well, indeed, Jim. There's been huge political pressure on the government here to have some sort of exit strategy, to give people hope that the whole lot of the troops will be coming home at some stage. Now, John Reid, the defense secretary, was very careful to spell out exactly what the situation was on that, that basically the main body of troops will stay there as long as the Iraqis want them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN REID, BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY: Our commitment to the Iraqi people and the government remains total, and it remains steadfast. Our commitment to the coalition is certain. We will stay as long as we are needed and wanted, and until the job is done. Today marks another significant step in that direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OAKLEY: But again, we have to remember, Jim, that at last year's British general election, Tony Blair and his Labor Party suffered because of the war in Iraqi. They've got local elections just coming up. It is a very convenient time for them to be able to announce some small progress in that direction to meet some of those political pressures -- Jim.

CLANCY: Great perspective, as always.

Robin Oakley, our man on politics in London and Europe.

Thank you.

VERJEE: Deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein could testify this week before the Iraqi high tribunal. The court adjourned on Monday after testimony from other defendants, including the judge, who presided over the trial of 148 Shias executed in Dujail. Awar al- Bandar (ph) acknowledged signing their death warrants, but he insisted that the trial was conducted according to the law and during wartime with Iran.

CLANCY: All right. We're going to take a short break, but still ahead, more on that controversy after the death of Slobodan Milosevic.

VERJEE: Two days after he was found in his cell in The Hague, questions, many of them, still lingering. Live reports from The Hague and from Belgrade. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

Just as he was controversial in life, so, too, in death. Slobodan Milosevic, a very controversial figure and one sparking a lot of debate, a man often called the butcher of the Balkans by his critics, was found dead at his cell in a U.N. detention center on Saturday.

We're covering this story from Belgrade, where CNN's Becky Anderson is standing by with some reactions. And also, Paula Newton is in the Netherlands. Let's begin there in The Hague with Paula and just ask you the latest that we're hearing from the court right now. They're going to be turning over the body. Does anyone yet know where it is going?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It will be going to Serbia. They did announce this morning through their lawyer, the Milosevic family, their wish to have Mr. Milosevic buried in Belgrade. But at this point, Marco Milosevic has been granted a visa. Milosevic's son has been granted a visa to come here to the Netherlands and receive his father's body.

But this is what's most controversial here, Jim. At this point, the Russian authorities are telling us that Russian doctors will be accompanying him.

They will look over the results of the autopsy from Dutch authorities that indicated that Mr. Milosevic died of a heart attack. They'll look over all that evidence and perhaps here go through some type of a simple examination. They won't be able to do another autopsy here.

To add to this, the Russian government has now again weighed in, saying that the body should now be returned to Russia before it goes to Serbia so that they can conduct their own autopsy. And the foreign minister himself, Sergei Lavrov from Russia, saying that why should they trust any autopsy from here?

Really, some incredible diplomatic shuffling here today. It really has been a bit of a circus -- Jim.

CLANCY: At the same time, now we have heard from the court that he was taking some other kind of medication. We've heard people say that he was self-medicating.

What was the answer to the question, did this tribunal, did this jail allow him to self-medicate? Did they allow others to bring in unprescribed medications? What happened?

NEWTON: The tribunal refuses to answer any of those questions until they finish their inquiry that is still ongoing. Of course, we're still waiting for toxicology results to see exactly what was in his bloodstream at the time of the death so that they and we know exactly what we're dealing with.

What we're talking about here is a very, very strong antibiotic that could have rendered his blood pressure medication ineffective, which would have added to his heart condition, and really made more of a case for him to either delay his trial or go to Russia for medical treatment.

In terms of, you know, was he taking it, was he given it by someone, was he given it without his knowledge? All of those questions left unanswered. And to remind you, that the Milosevic family has made some pretty explosive allegations, and the tribunal is retracting by saying it's all ridiculous, that of course they wanted to keep Mr. Milosevic in good health so that he could stand trial here and face the justice that his victims say he should have faced -- Jim.

CLANCY: We haven't heard the last of any of this, Paula, as you point out. Very controversial.

Paula Newton, reporting there live from The Hague.

VERJEE: Serbians themselves have now had a couple of days to absorb the news that their former leader is dead.

CNN's Becky Anderson joins us now from Belgrade for some of the perspectives from there.

Becky, what have people been saying to you?

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is what we are hearing in the last hour. Let me tell you what we know, following on from what Paula has been telling you.

A possibly very significant development this afternoon. A report that the public prosecutor's office here has initiated proceedings to drop the arrest warrant against Milosevic's wife, Mira Markovic, so that she would conceivably be able to travel here for the funeral.

These are only reports at the moment. I've got to say there's an awful lot of speculation and conjecture swirling around this story here in Belgrade, but it does seem as though we will get confirmation of that tomorrow.

I'm joined now by a guest here, Zarco Korac, who is president of one of the opposition parties, the SDU.

And I want to ask you, sir, specifically, how significant would it be if Mira Markovic was allowed to come to Serbia to attend the funeral of her husband?

ZARCO KORAC, PRESIDENT, SERBIAN SOCIAL DEM. PARTY: Well, it would be very significant for two reasons. One is that there is an outstanding warrant for her arrest, and that means that Kostunica is weak, the government is week under pressure.

Milosevic's party actually insists of revoking this arrest, and that means that she would be allowed to come with her son, by the way. And that means the party's still strong, that it can control the country, and it also means that we are somehow going back in communist times where the law was something you could fiddle with and you could basically change, break the law, according to your political wishes.

ANDERSON: You're talking about the party. When you refer to the party, that's the socialist party of which Milosevic has, until he died, been the leader, of course.

Why do you think the government here in Serbia has initiated this move to revoke that warrant?

KORAC: Well, it's an apiecement policy, because this is a very weak government. It's a minority government. And it's supported in parliament by the very party of Milosevic.

It's a small party, with a handful of seats in Serbian parliament. But very important, because if they walk out of parliament, this government will go down, and we'll have new elections.

But the whole point is that Mira Markovic is not just the wife of Milosevic, she's not just like any wife, grieving wife coming to a funeral of her husband. She was a leader of a political party. The political party was in coalition with Milosevic, and she bears responsibility for decisions he made. She was his political partner.

If I may say for your audience, she is probably the most despised person in Serbia. People really don't like her.

She had a number of very unpleasant and ugly nicknames, one of them being a "Red Witch" because her party was very (INAUDIBLE). The other was "Lady Macbeth of Serbia."

The people don't like her. And the fact that the public prosecutor initiated this will bear consequences. There is going to be a very negative reaction.

ANDERSON: Sir, the politics in Serbia, in this region as a whole, are very fairly complicated for those on the outside. The support for Milosevic is also fairly complicated, too, understand.

Just how much pressure will there be on the government here now to work with or not work with The Hague going forward? Of course, we know there are fugitives still at large.

KORAC: Well, at the moment, I presume Kostunica, the government, the prime minister is not going to be very inclined to arrest General Mladic and possibly to assist in arresting Mr. (INAUDIBLE), the leader of the Bosnian-Serb revolt under indictment from Hague tribunal.

But in the long run, there is no option. And this government or any other government would have to do that because there is -- there is, sad to say, this is a condition of all conditions. And the European Union yesterday said this very plainly: We understand the moment. We understand the delicacy, the complications, but if you want to join European Union to go on that way, you simply have to arrest them and extradite to Hague.

ANDERSON: Dr. Korac, we thank you very much indeed for joining us.

The leader of one of the opposition parties, which there are many here in Serbia. The leader of the SDU.

Back to you, guys.

CLANCY: All right, Becky. Thank you for that.

We're going to check in now. Our "Question of the Day" comes in -- right on this subject. VERJEE: Yes, we want you to weigh in on it. It is this: Are war crimes tribunals effective? Tell us what you think -- YWT@CNN.com.

Well, Georgia is on its mind.

CLANCY: Who is that?

VERJEE: I don't know. Well, actually, we're talking about South Korea's second largest automaker. Plans for a flagship factory, as well as some other business news when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris, in for Daryn Kagan, at the CNN Center in Atlanta. More of YOUR WORLD TODAY in just a few minutes. But first, a check of stories making headlines in the U.S.

New developments in the sentencing trial of confessed al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui. The judge brings it all to an abrupt halt this morning after prosecutors make an unexpected revelation and the defense asks for a mistrial.

CNN's homeland correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, is on "Security Watch" outside the courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia -- Jeanne.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Tony, a very angry Judge Leoni Brinkema is trying to wrestle with exactly how to handle what she calls a very serious taint of key portions of testimony in this trial.

There was a court order which said that witnesses should not be coached and should not be given information about the testimony of other witnesses. However, a TSA attorney who was preparing seven witnesses from the Federal Aviation Administration shared with them transcripts of the opening statements and the testimony of an FBI witness. In addition, she sent e-mails to these FAA witnesses, discussing possible lines of questioning.

Now, the defense heard about this, this morning. They requested that the death penalty in this case be thrown out. That would mean that Moussaoui, who has already pled guilty to six counts of terrorism conspiracy, would automatically spend the rest of his life in prison.

The judge apparently seriously considering this request. She said this morning, "It is very difficult for this case to go forward under these circumstances." She has asked for an evidentiary hearing tomorrow to talk about possible alternatives and to hear from the FAA witnesses to determine just how much damage has been done.

Tony, back to you.

HARRIS: CNN's Jeanne Meserve for us.

Jeanne, thank you. A resolution to censure President Bush over his warrantless wiretapping program is making its way to the floor of the Senate at this hour. It's spearheaded by Senator Russ Feingold, a Wisconsin Democrat.

Earlier, Feingold told CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING" the president broke the law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: I think what we've done for three months is -- I'm on both the Intelligence Committee and the Judiciary Committee -- we've listened and listened and we have not heard any persuasive argument at all that the president had legal authority to do that. Would it be a good thing for the country now to start an impeachment proceeding? I'm not so sure. I think that's something we ought to think about.

Do we really want to remove the president from office because of this? Or do we want to send a clear signal by a censure resolution that what he did was wrong?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Well, the White House dismisses the resolution as politically motivated. It says the program, which monitors conversations between people in the U.S. and suspected terrorists overseas, is critical for national security. Feingold is seen as a potential White House contender.

Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

In the Midwest, residents and officials are trying to assess the damage from a weekend of devastating weather. At least 10 deaths are blamed on the series of storms. Several apparent tornadoes ripped across Missouri and into Illinois. Illinois's state capital, Springfield, is reeling from what appears to be one of the city's worst storms on record.

The latest on all this wicked weather now. Dave Hennen is the CNN Weather Center for us.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: We're told that more than 100 firefighters are now on the scene of a big blaze in New York City. Take a look at these live pictures now.

The three-alarm fire is in a building in the Hillside area of Queens. The building houses stores, restaurants and other businesses. Right now, there is no word of any injuries or fatalities.

The U.S. Coast Guard has launched a search in Narragansett Bay, where three University of Rhode Island students may have disappeared in a rowboat. The boat has been found, along with an oar, a ball cap, and a sandal. The school's president says it's not definite that the missing students were actually in the boat. A security guard reported hearing voices off the shore last night, and that's what prompted the initial search.

President Bush opening up a new campaign to rebuild support for his war policies. CNN has live coverage of his speech from George Washington University, about 45 minutes from now.

In the meantime, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues after a quick break.

I'm Tony Harris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back, everyone, to YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International. I'm Jim Clancy.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee. Here are some of the top stories we're following.

In an exclusive interview with CNN, Iraq's interim prime minister indicated that he will pursue a four-year term in the post. This despite calls from some Sunni and Kurd lawmakers for Ibrahim al Jaafari to give up his nomination. The battle over who will lead Iraq is paralyzing parliament, despite national and international pressure for them to form a united government.

CLANCY: A drawdown in Iraq written, announcing through the Defense Secretary John Reid, that the United Kingdom plans to get its forces by 10 percent, sending some 800 troops home by May. Reid says Iraqi forces are becoming more capable of handling their own security, and he stressed, the reduction was based on operational considerations and was not political.

VERJEE: An attorney for the former Yugoslav president says Slobodan Milosevic did not medicate himself. A Dutch expert said earlier that Milosevic may have taken drugs that worsened his health. Milosevic died on Saturday of a heart attack in his cell in The Hague. He was being tried by a U.N. war crimes tribunal for genocide, as well as other charges for the Balkan wars in the '90s.

CLANCY: Survivors of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina certainly have mixed feelings about the passing of Slobodan Milosevic. While some are certainly disappointed he's never going to face justice, others say he still will never get away with his crimes, either.

Isha Sesay reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please be seated.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An abrupt end to one of history's biggest war crimes trial. Slobodan Milosevic was accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes for his role in the 1990s conflict in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. Neighbor turned against neighbor, and many survivors blamed Milosevic. Hundreds of thousands of people died and millions of people became homeless.

In 1995, in the Eastern Bosnian enclave Ashrabenitza (ph), some 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were slaughtered. News of Milosevic's death quickly reached the victims' families.

NURA ALIPHASIC, SREBRENICA MOTHER (through translator): I just heard about it on television. I'm glad. He has sent the Serbian soldiers to kill our boys in Srebrenica.

SESAY: Some victims' relatives also expressed shock.

KADA HOTIC, SREBRENICA MASSACRE SURVIVOR (through translator): Believe me, I am very surprised and not glad that he died. I thought that he would live to get the just verdict.

SESAY: Regret is a common theme among the survivors. They're disappointed that Milosevic died before receiving the court's judgment.

SUBASIC MUNIRA, SREBRENICA MASSACRE SURVIVOR (through translator): I'm sorry that he wasn't sentenced as a criminal and that it hasn't been proved. We know he was a criminal. The world knows that. But we fear that he has escaped justice.

SESAY: The chief U.N. war crimes prosecutor says Milosevic's trial was just weeks from completion. With no verdict, those who lived through the ethnic massacres now have solace that Milosevic will never again return.

KEMAL PERVANIC, CONCENTRATION CAMP SURVIVOR: If we had his judgment and conviction -- successful judgment and conviction -- you know, it could have served as a very powerful deterrent for any potential dictators who might think of committing similar murderous acts. But unfortunately, this chance has gone now forever.

SESAY: But some say they have a new fear: that others they see as war criminals would escape justice as Milosevic did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was tried for five years, and there was enough evidence to sentence him. I'm afraid that something similar may happen to the Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, so that we have a crime and those responsible for it wouldn't be punished.

SESAY: Bosnia Serb wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his former military chief Ratko Mladic have been indicted twice for genocide, for Srebrenica and Sarajevo, but they remain at large.

Isha Sesay, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: It's time for us to look at some of the e-mails that you've been sending us. We've been asking you about your thoughts about war crimes tribunals in general.

CLANCY: Our question this day: Are these war trials tribunals really effective? Now, this is what some of you had to say.

VERJEE: A viewer from Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia, says: "Milosevic should have been tried in Serbia. Trying him in The Hague was a waste of time. Why were the other war criminals from Croatia and Bosnia not in The Hague or accused of genocide?"

CLANCY: Now, Helene from South Africa had this to say: "War tribunals are a farce, and a means to keep some mediocre judges employed. Deal with war atrocities at the source, not once peace has been declared."

VERJEE: And from Germany, Michael writes: "I don't think war crimes tribunals are useful or effective. What about all the Nazis living freely in Europe? Why aren't they being tried?"

CLANCY: And then finally, Alexander from Germany had this to say: "Tribunals are a farce. There can be only justice if it is equal for everyone. But The Hague is a first step to this justice."

VERJEE: Ywt@CNN.com for your e-mails.

CLANCY: A lot of interest in this question, the effectiveness of a tribunal. And there's going to be a lot of debate in the days ahead about what happened to Slobodan Milosevic, what has happened to a total of six Serb prisoners since they went there.

VERJEE: Exactly, and many people in Serbia are saying, look, you know, we just don't trust The Hague, we don't like it, it's anti-Serb.

CLANCY: All right. Well, Britain leaving no doubt where it stands on Iran's nuclear ambitions. Another of the major stories this day is Foreign Secretary Jack Straw comes out swinging. He says nothing would set back the goal of a nuclear-free Middle East more than Iran acquiring atomic arms. Straw says the current regime in Tehran not acting in the best interests of its own people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: Sadly, Iran is now going in the wrong direction. And these chances, which were there before Iran, are being squandered. Since President Ahmadinejad's election last year, he and the small group which surrounds him have adopted policies at home and abroad which risk real damage to Iran's reputation and its relations with the rest of the world. Iran and the Iranian people deserve better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERJEE: Russia says it's agreed to another round of talks with Iran over its nuclear program, but the Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also says Russia was extremely disappointed with previous negotiations. He says, quote, "Iran is absolutely no help to those seeking peaceful ways to resolve the dispute." Russia's offering to enrich uranium for Iran on Russian soil. Now that's an offer that Tehran's rejected. Iran stands by what it says is its right, under the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, to a peaceful nuclear program. CLANCY: Now, as all of this swirls, the controversy surrounding the Iran's nuclear program, there's going to be a U.N. Security Council meeting on Iran's -- that very issue, Iran's nuclear program. It could be crucial, of course, because the council does have the power, if it wanted to impose economic and political sanctions on Iran. But everyone is saying, on all sides, that's not what the council is going to do, at least in a first step.

For some perspective, we talked earlier with a diplomat from one of the countries pushing hardest for sanctions, the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICHOLAS BURNS, U.S. UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: I think we have a lot to do diplomatically in New York. We just started the U.N. Security Council process, and it's our view that with Russia and China, the United States and Europe all standing together, there is a diplomatic avenue for Iran. It's to suspend its nuclear operations and return to negotiations, the ones that they unilaterally broke off.

CLANCY: Is Russia really standing -- can you say that today that Russia is really standing with the U.S.? If Iran says, like it did today, that it won't give up one iota, goes ahead and enriches uranium, would Russia go along with suspending all assistance, nuclear, of any kind to Iran? They have, after all, what, a half -- $400 billion in projects there?

BURNS: Well, you know, I think that one of the most significant achievements over the last several months has been the creation of this international coalition, which includes the United States and Europe and India and Brazil and Russia and China, all of which voted against Iran at the International Atomic Energy Agency, all of which voted to report the Iran issue the U.N. Security Council.

So we do have a lot of international support for the proposition that the Iranians have to submit themselves to the will of the international community. And that will is clearly that Iran should give up its nuclear weapons desires. We believe the Iranians are engaged in research which is going to launch a nuclear weapons program in Iran. We think that that is inconsistent with everything Iran has said to the IAEA. And the debate at the United Nations is going to focus on that issue.

And I think there is a lot of international support to continue to isolate Iran and to increase the diplomatic pressure so that it will do what it must do: return to negotiations, suspend the enrichment processes that they undertook unilaterally back in the first part of January.

CLANCY: But as a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty, the Iranians have the right to enrich uranium for peaceful purposes. Now, unlike Iran, India did not sign the non-proliferation treaty. Unlike Iran, India has already developed nuclear weapons. Did President Bush's deal offered to India, to New Delhi, to help them with peaceful nuclear power -- did that undercut the non-proliferation treaty and undercut negotiations with Iran? BURNS: Not at all. No, not at all. The Indians are not signatories to the non-proliferation treaty. But the Indians, for 30 years, have not diverted their nuclear technology. They've not been engaged in proliferation. They've protected that technology. And the Indians, by virtue of a deal with President Bush, will be invited the International Atomic Agency to come in.

CLANCY: But the non-proliferation treaty says very clearly --

BURNS: Iran is trying to push out the IAEA, and so the comparison between these two countries is, one wants to play by the rules, and the other doesn't want to playboy the rules. That other is Iran.

CLANCY: But India hasn't even signed the rulebook. India and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is designed to reward countries who sign the non-proliferation Treaty and penalize those who don't. President Bush is rewarded somebody who didn't. Does it undercut the treaty?

BURNS: No, we don't believe it does at all. In fact, we think it strengthens the treaty. And I'll tell you why, because India has been outside the treaty for 30 years. India is a nuclear weapons state. We are not recognizing it officially, but that's the facts. India is not going to give up its nuclear weapons.

But India is saying to the international community, we want to open up our entire system, have the IAEA place international inspections and safeguards on that system for the very first time in 30 years, so that we will all have an impact on India's civil nuclear program. India will receive the benefit of trade and investment in the civil side of that program over the period ahead. That is a net gain for...

CLANCY: All right.

BURNS: ... for proliferation, and it's exactly the opposite of what the Iranians are trying to do.

CLANCY: Well, if it is a time to face the facts, for a fact, can the West live with a nuclear-armed Iran? Or is it a cause for war?

BURNS: Well, I think that we have said consistently, and many other countries have said, that we do not wish to see Iran acquire a nuclear weapons capability. That is our policy. And we'll do everything that we can to prevent that from happening. That is why the United States, and Europe and the other countries that I mentioned have coalesced in an international coalition designed to send one message to Tehran: They are heading down the wrong path. They should head back towards negotiations. And they certainly should stop the nuclear activities that they have under way at their plant at Natan.

There is international solidarity on this. It's not just a position of the United States government. There's not a single government, of which we are aware, with a possible exception of Cuba and Venezuela, who want to see Iran with nuclear weapons. (END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: That was U.S. Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns. We thank him for spending that time with us to discuss the Iranian case.

VERJEE: A political storm likely brewing at the U.N. Security Council over in New York. A different kind of storm, though, we want to focus on. What's it actually like to live through a tornado?

CLANCY: Americans who call Tornado Alley home say, it's impossible to describe. A freight train. Well, what do you think? we'll take you on a tour of what very dangerous place looks like.

Stay with us.

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(WEATHER REPORT)

VERJEE: You know, you may have bought yourself a fake Gucci or a fake Prada, but how about a fake Great Wall of China? That's something that we want to tell you about.

CLANCY: Well, you know the Olympics are coming up. In just a couple of years, the Summer Games will be there in China, and the Chinese have decided they are going to build a reproduction of the Great Wall of China. It's going to let the tourists leave their mark while they leave their money.

Andrew Stevens explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's China's most famous landmark. It's also a magnet for small-time vandals. For years, Heritage Officials have tried to combat people's urge to carve a message into the Great Wall of China. Authorities have recently stepped up patrols of the Wall. Now, there's a new and original plan. At the Juyongguan section of the wall, they're building a section of artificial wall. It's next to the real thing, and people will be encouraged to leave a mark.

XU DEJUN, ASST. CHIEF, JUYONGGUAN SECTION (through translator): We have been working hard to find a solution to prevent graffiti on the genuine Great Wall for a long time. Actually, we have been thinking about building this fake wall for several years now.

STEVENS: The fake wall is near Battali (ph), one of the more popular places to visit the Great Wall because of its closeness to Beijing. For the equivalent of about $120, a couple can get a lasting love message.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This memory wall is newly built. I think carving our names on it does not do any harm, so I think it's very meaningful to have our names on it. STEVENS: But not everyone is so enthusiastic, some balk at the fee. Others suggest this project is more about profits than preservation.

WU BO (through translator): I don't think I will have my name carved on the fake wall, because I think it is useless. That does not make much sense. Besides, it costs a lot of money.

STEVENS: With 9,999 bricks available, authorities stand to collect almost $1.3 million and, with luck, keep a valuable piece of the past in good shape for the future. Andrew Stevens, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: All right, we got to take a short break here, but we're on the topic of shopping. We should -- we're going to take you on shopping trip in Egypt.

VERJEE: And we're here to take you camel shopping. You never know when you might need one. The art of wheeling and dealing for a top commodity. That's next. Stay with CNN.

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CLANCY: Zain, you like to go around the world and shop every place you go. Do you have a market for a camel?

VERJEE: As I'm thinking about it, you might be in the market if you're planning a trip across the desert.

CLANCY: Or perhaps you'd like to have some camel for dessert.

VERJEE: No.

CLANCY: They do wind up on plates.

VERJEE: How does it taste?

CLANCY: Hmm, not bad.

VERJEE: Let's find out. Our Cairo bureau chief, Ben Wedeman, is a good man to know for some advice on both subjects.

CLANCY: He's his primmer on useful tips on all things camel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's another busy, noisy day at the market. The camel market north of Cairo. Hundreds are bought and sold every Friday, Sunday, and Monday in this far-from- fragrant lot outside the town of Bir'ash.

Hellmy (ph) is looking to buy six. The average camel here goes for around 3,000 Egyptian Pounds, just over $500. Buying a camel is a lot like buying a car. But instead of kicking the tire, you pat the hump.

The good firm hump, Hellmy tells me, means the camel is well fed, well watered and in good health. The ship of the desert, that symbol of patience, strength, and endurance, today is the meal of choice for many Egyptians, who say camel meat is good for you, thankfully free from modern scourges, such as bird flu or mad cow disease.

Almost all these camels come from the Sudan. They used to walk all the way. A grueling journey that took 40 days. Now they come by truck. A rough trip that can lead some of the animals out of sorts. This camel, I was told, is homesick and will only eat if hand fed.

It's flesh and blood and has feelings just like a human, its owner Ahmed (ph) says. Cutting a camel deal can be a long and complicated affair. Voices are raised. Tempers flare. But Abdul Nasr (ph), one of the big time camel dealers here, rarely loses his cool.

He's no pushover. You bring him as many camels as you like, but you can't make him buy and seeing that I have an eye for camels, he offers me a job as his assistant, $1,000 a month, plus benefits. I promised to think it over.

After the sale, the camels are pushed, cajoled, beaten, and generally forced into trucks. A few might end up pulling a cart or a plow, or hauling tourists out at the pyramids, but most will end up on a plate. Given the fate awaiting them, such determined resistance is understandable. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Bir'ash, Egypt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: Great story. Loved that.

For our viewers in the United States, CNN "LIVE FROM" with Kyra Phillips straight ahead.

VERJEE: And here on CNN International, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues, so stay with us.

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