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Nancy Grace

Family of Six Disappears in Oregon

Aired March 16, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking developments out of Oregon, a family of six gone missing. That`s right, six -- two parents, two children, two in-laws -- take off as a family on a day trip, a day trip up the Oregon coast. Tonight, two full weeks later, no sign, seemingly vanished into thin air, no family, no RV, no anything. Help us crack the case.
And tonight, Michael Jackson -- oh, yes! Michael Jackson -- well, he may be hanging out from the long arm of the law in Bahrain overseas, but he still has to answer up to brand-new legal claims here on American soil. Jackson finally gives Neverland workers some long overdue back pay, or does he? Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Neverland still closed until Jackson forks over the money.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you all for being with us tonight. Tonight, crisis at Neverland! Can music icon Michael Jackson "beat it" one more time and keep his multi-million-dollar estate, Neverland, in the black?

But first tonight, an incredible mystery unfolding in the Northwest, an entire family of six vanishes. Husband and wife take a day trip to the Oregon coast. Along with them, two children, 8 and 9, and the in-laws. All six of them, including the massive RV they were driving, vanish.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there are four adults in the motor home, that we know of. And there`s nothing to suggest that any of them have been relying on the banking institutions to get themselves any money. So whatever money they had with them when they left is all they had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s amazing, an entire family, the RV, all gone. Let`s go straight out to staff writer with "The Ashland Daily Tidings" Jennifer Squires. Jennifer, it`s fantastical, a whole family. an RV, all gone? What happened?

JENNIFER SQUIRES, "ASHLAND DAILY TIDINGS": No one`s really sure yet. Twelve days ago, the Stivers family left on an overnight trip to the coast. They didn`t specify where they were going. And people are looking. They don`t know.

GRACE: Well, what else can you tell me, other than they went at the coast and people are looking? What is being done to find this family?

SQUIRES: Starting yesterday, law enforcement officials have been actively searching for the family. Today, sheriff`s deputies from four counties set up a base camp on Highway 199, which runs from our part of Oregon to the coast, and they`ve begun searching that area. Yesterday, an Oregon state police -- or excuse me, a plane was up in the air, looking for the motor home. And so far, there`s -- they`ve found no trace of the family.

GRACE: I want to go to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." Jim, it`s so fantastical -- the family totally missing, six people, including two children, in an RV. What about weather conditions? What can you tell me?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, this is one thing. You talk about sending up a plane, Nancy. This is a 39-foot motor home. It doesn`t just disappear. You had the detective talking about bank accounts not being used. The police are suspecting foul play, at this point. They are on the road. The conditions are fine. Sure, it rains a lot up there, but motor homes don`t just go missing. Families don`t just go missing. You`ve got four adults, two children. Their ATM has not been used. The telephone for the wife goes to voice-mail right away. The police are concerned, but as this reporter just told you a moment ago, they simply don`t know what happened to them. They went on a day trip, and they`ve never been heard from since.

GRACE: You know, I want to go to a very special guest joining me right now, I`m hearing in my ear -- thank you, Elizabeth. To Rose Hill. Rose is the mother of Marlo Hill Stivers. Everyone, a crisis in Oregon. And entire family -- take a look at these photos -- mother, father, two children ages 7 and 9, and their in-laws on a trip in their RV. How can you miss an RV, people? What happened? Now missing two full weeks!

Straight to Rose Hill. She reported her daughter missing. Rose, welcome. And when did you first realize your daughter is gone?

ROSE HILL, MOTHER OF MISSING MARLO STIVERS: Sunday evening, they were supposed to be back, my daughter said, no later than 9:00 PM because they both had work Monday morning, and my grandchildren had school. And so Sunday evening, when they didn`t show up, I knew something was wrong.

GRACE: What did you do?

HILL: I went to the police officer the next day, the police station, and they said that -- they took me over to my daughter`s house and they took all the information down And they told me to wait another day.

GRACE: Why?

HILL: I don`t know. They wouldn`t give me any explanation why. I said, This is not my daughter. My daughter does not do this. Her dad`s been fighting cancer. We had an important doctor`s appointment today. She would be here. Something`s stopping her.

GRACE: Let`s go straight to Detective Brent Jensen with the Ashland Police Department. Is that true, Detective, that the mom was told, Wait another day?

BRENT JENSEN, ASHLAND POLICE DEPARTMENT: We got the call from Rose on the 8th of March. And it`s an interesting call because there is no crime involved in being missing. It is not against the law for an adult person to want to be away from whatever situation they`re in. We get these types of calls a lot where somebody is missing, a relative calls, I haven`t heard from Joe in three days, Can you go into his apartment and check him out? We can`t do that. Person has a right to privacy. If they don`t want to be found, they don`t have to be found. What we`re working with...

GRACE: But a whole family, Detective? A whole family?

JENSEN: In a sense, the whole family almost makes it more of a privacy issue. If you have -- certainly, if you have a 6-year-old that wanders away from a playground or an Alzheimer`s patient that walks away from a hospital, you would start the search right away. But when you have a family going on a trip -- we had information from neighbors that they may be going to Disneyland. From the mother, her co-workers, she told the coast. It`s a big coast. Maybe they changed their plans. We can`t go in and kick in somebody`s door just because they`ve been missing for a while.

We did make an official report after we got a handwritten statement from Mrs. Hill and they were entered into the computer on the 12th. The whole family was entered in on the 12th. That`s another interesting question. Marlo, the daughter, was entered in the computer when we got the report from Rose. The rest of the family -- again, who is entitled to report the Higgenbothams (ph) are missing? They`re kind of nomadic by nature. They travel around in their motor home. Maybe they don`t want the police to come find him. So it`s that balance between respecting someone`s privacy and being...

GRACE: OK, wait a minute...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Let me see if I got this correct. Detective Brent Jensen is kind enough to be with us tonight, everyone. An entire family is missing, including 8 and 9-year-old children, the parents and the in-laws.

You mentioned that only Marlo Hill Stivers, the mother, was reported missing, Detective. Is that what I head you say?

JENSEN: That was the initial report.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Let me get that straightened out. Rose Hill is the mother of Marlo. You initially reported Marlo missing, correct? Rose, are you with me? OK. Somehow, we dropped off with Rose. Elizabeth, try to get the mom back. I`m going to find out about the missing person`s report.

So back to you, Detective. What are you doing to find the family right now? How can we help you?

JENSEN: Well, the biggest help from the media has been the coverage that we`re getting. We`ve been getting pictures of the family, pictures of the motor home plastered pretty much everywhere in southwest Oregon, and certainly through the National Center for Missing and Exploited...

GRACE: Straight to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. Pat, what can you tell me about this case?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, the big question, like Jensen, how do you lose a 39-foot motor home? But here`s some interesting material, Nancy. Tell me what you think. You know, shortly before this trip, the father-in-law had said to some neighbors, You know, I got some steering problems. You know, this is something I`m just throwing out there. I`m not looking at him at all, I`m just saying -- it`s sort of an odd thing. You`re getting ready to go to a trip, but the motor home`s got some steering issues that I`m going to have to check out before we go on the road, OK? That`s number one.

Number two, the only other thing that they can find out is that there was some squabble with the neighbor in the apartment complex. I`m talking about the younger couple. But then thirdly, there was some talk that there -- that the family wasn`t quite as happy as people say the family was. Now, do what you want with that.

But one other thing I can tell you is that they did fly over he area with an airplane, an investigative -- a law enforcement investigative airplane. But they`re probably not able to go very low, and my understanding is that the next plan is to go in with a helicopter and see what they can find. But I`ll tell you, one big fat question mark, definitely.

GRACE: And you`re taking a look at the conditions there, where this family would have been driving -- horrific! But even with that much snow, how can you miss an RV?

We`ve now reconnected with Rose Hill, the mother of Marlo Hill Stivers. Welcome back, Ms. Hill. Again, thank you for being with us. Her whole family now missing, unaccounted for, two full weeks. Won`t you help us tonight?

Rose, you initially reported just your daughter missing, correct?

HILL: Yes.

GRACE: Why?

HILL: That`s what the officer that had met me at my daughter`s apartment told me I had to do, just my daughter.

GRACE: Tell me, did they travel around in the RV all the time?

HILL: No. This was their first trip to the coast.

GRACE: OK. Because the detective just described them as being nomadic, that they traveled around in the RV all the time for long periods of time. Is that true or false?

HILL: No. The in-laws did.

GRACE: Oh, yes. OK. Detective Brent Jensen, what about that?

JENSEN: I was just getting ready to correct you when Rose did. Yes, the in-laws, the Higgenbothams, that`s their home. They sold the property and bought the motor home, so they do travel around.

GRACE: Gotcha. OK, but not the family, not the younger family, the children and the parents. OK. Got it.

JENSEN: (INAUDIBLE) Ashland residents for the last two years.

GRACE: OK. To Rose Hill, again, the mother of the missing woman. Everybody, this entire family missing, last known to be driving down the Oregon coast. Rose, what possessed them to go on a trip in the snow? There are up to nine-foot snowdrifts!

HILL: All I know is that my daughter and one of her neighbors had been giving her problems, and that she couldn`t even let the children out to play. That was how bad it was.

GRACE: Well, what in the world was wrong?

HILL: They just -- I don`t know. My daughter started working, and this friend didn`t like it, I guess, because she wasn`t coming over all the time, and so she was just causing horrible problems for them, so they just all stayed inside. They just wanted to get away for the weekend, to have some peace and quiet. And my daughter had never seen the ocean before, and they just wanted to get away for the weekend.

GRACE: Well, what about the story that they were going to Disney World -- Disneyland?

HILL: I have never heard that story. Everybody...

GRACE: And you know where that came from, Rose, is one of the families -- Rose Hill with us, the mother of Marlo. Marlo, her two children, her husband and in-laws all missing, along with their RV. You know, you`d think -- you`d think people would see an RV if it had crashed through a guardrail, was on the side of the road, something like that.

Rose, the specter of marital discord has raised its ugly head. Is it true your daughter and her husband not getting along?

HILL: Oh, that is not true at all! They love each other.

GRACE: I`m glad you cleared that up.

I would think, Renee Rockwell, the first thing police need to do is -- you know, it`s forensic fundamentals. You`ve got to look at the trail. You`ve got to look for any and all electronic data. It`s elementary. It`s like A, B, C. I`m talking credit cards, cell phones, ATMs, you name it. What can we hope to learn, Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, My understanding is that any calls to any cell phone is going straight to voice-mail, which indicates to me that the phones are not operational.

But back to this power steering problem. Power steering problem is a little bit like a cavity. It`s not going to get any better. For them to get on the road in these harsh conditions with a power steering problem indicates to me that it might not be foul play, but it might be an accident. And with a delay on the report from somebody missing on the 4th or 5th to the 8th, we`ve got a problem here if people are not looking out for this family.

GRACE: Back to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." Jim, I know police are investigating the possibility of foul play. Let`s talk about it. Let`s get it out there. This whole family in the RV, going on a trip. You`ve got two kids in the vehicle. What if they stopped at a rest stop? What if they stopped at a truck stop? What if they pulled in for gas? This kind of vehicle, anybody could get into this thing. The security is very easily overcome.

MORET: Right. But the detective makes a really interesting point. It`s not like one or two of the members of the family are missing, or the children, but the entire family. And then that raises the question, as the detective points out, maybe they don`t want to be found. Maybe -- even though this is suspicious, maybe it`s not foul play.

And I think this is one of the problems with this case. You`ve got Rose Hill, who`s clearly concerned about her daughter, understandably. As a parent, I would be, too. But you have a situation where a mother, a father, two in-laws and two children all took off, and no one has seen them. I think this is the best thing that you can do, frankly, is show their pictures, because somebody will see these people, if they`re out there.

GRACE: OK, back to Rose very quickly. Rose, weren`t there paychecks -- wasn`t it time for them to get their paychecks? Would they have missed that?

HILL: They wouldn`t have. And they -- I don`t not agree with -- these people don`t know my daughter or my son-in-law. My daughter was here because she wanted to be here for me and her father. Her father`s been going through a lot of health issues. She would not just take off and leave without saying a word to me or her father, or at least calling us or something. They just don`t know my family. They would not do that.

GRACE: Well, another issue is -- I`m going back to the possibility of foul play because it`s hard for me to believe that a humongous RV like this on the side of the road that ran into a tree or skidded off the road would not have been noticed. I`m very concerned tonight they have been met with foul play. I mean, think about it. Remember the Groene family up in Kootenai County? The whole family wiped out simply so a predator could get those two children. He scoped out the family with night goggles, for Pete`s sakes, the Groene family. And then we had the entire Mesa, Arizona, family totally wiped out because two of them would have been witnesses.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." The Royal Canadian Mounties respond to protect their own tonight, sending two forensic experts to Mexico to investigate the double murders of an affluent Ontario couple at a luxury Cancun-area resort, Dominic and Nancy Ianiero found slain in their luxury hotel room Feb. 20 just before their daughter was set to walk down the aisle. Forensic experts requested after two senior officers in Mexico called for help, after first pointing the finger at two innocent soccer moms. Mexican authorities now tight-lipped.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. Very often, we hear about missing people, but rarely do we find out about an entire missing family. But that`s what`s going on tonight. Pete Stivers is 29 years old. We believe he was driving the Reverend, along with his family, Marlo Hill Stivers 31, Sebastian (ph) Stivers just 9 years old, Gabrielle (ph) Stivers 8 years old, Albert Higgenbotham -- that is -- these are the father-in-law and mother-in-law -- 54, Becky Higgenbotham 44. They went on a day trip. They have not been seen since.

Phil Rosenbaum, our producer, you`ve researched the terrain. You`ve researched the RV. What can you tell us, in a nutshell?

PHIL ROSENBAUM, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: This RV that they were driving in is from the early `90s, and it could have presented a problem, actually, because the wheels on this model are closer together, closer to the frame than they are in current models. So that means the RV sways more than a modern model would.

GRACE: What do you mean, it sways more?

ROSENBAUM: Sways more during steep curves in the road and harsh terrain, so if there was a lot of snow out there, you might have some kind of problem.

GRACE: Well, on the positive side -- back to Pat Lalama. Take a look inside this RV. We`ve managed to get photos tonight of a replica of the inside of the RV. Surely, if they are in a snow drift right now, they had food and water, Pat. Look, did you see the inside of that?

LALAMA: Oh, yes! Absolutely. These things -- by the way, these things can be magnificent. I`ve been inside a few of them. And hopefully, you know, with the help of the Lord, there`s plenty of supplies, and if, in fact, they are stuck...

But you know, Nancy, I just wanted to tell you something, since I live on the California coast and I go up and down the coast all the time to, you know, take trips to the beach. And you`ll see these little parks -- (INAUDIBLE) can tell you about these. They`re like motor home parks right on the beach, where everybody just sets up a community. They probably didn`t know each other yesterday, but they know each other today. They`ve got the barbecues out. They`re talking. They spend the night. And it`s very loose. It`s like how it used to be back in the old days, you know, when you could just meet new people. And -- but I wonder, every time I go to those -- that beach area, I make sure I have people with me. I just -- it`s weird to me.

GRACE: I want to go to criminal profiler Dr. Deborah Schurman- Kauflin. Doctor, thank you for being with us. While the police may think that it`s not odd at all for a family to be gone for two weeks together, the mom has convinced me tonight that something is horribly wrong. Based on your experience, what do you think about the Stivers` disappearance.

DEBORAH SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, behaviorally, it doesn`t appear as if they had planned to leave. I mean, they were expecting a paycheck. There`s been no account activity in their banking account, no cell phone activity. These were responsible people, and so it looks as if either there was an accident or some sinister foul play involved.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: An entire family, missing off the Oregon coast now going on two full weeks. I want to go back to our criminal profiler, Dr. Deborah Schurman-Kauflin. We know there`s no cell activity. There`s no activity on the bank account, no credit cards. But it`s odd to me that no one has seen an RV with these plates. Haven`t seen it in a snowbank. They haven`t seen it on the side of the road, nothing. Let`s talk about foul play. What could have gone wrong, Doctor?

SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, as you mentioned, you remember Joseph Edward Duncan killed a family. BTK killed a family. A family was killed down in Arizona. These things do happen. When you have an opportunity meeting deviant desires, you have a situation where people can get killed. And if they pulled off to the side of the road someplace, somebody could have overpowered them with a weapon.

GRACE: You know, you`re right about the families you were just mentioning. I want to go back to Jim Moret. You and I covered this together. First of all, you`ve got the Mesa, Arizona, family entirely wiped out, all of them, possibly because one or two of them were witnesses. Then you have the entire Groene family wiped out because the two children gone -- that were targets of a sex predator.

MORET: Well, and that`s really what`s so chilling. And Nancy, you said it best. You talk about Rose Hill. She knows her daughter. If Marlo`s father is ill and its her nature to be near her parents, especially when her father`s not well, and a mother says, My daughter wouldn`t leave, you have to listen to that mom. And you don`t just go by -- based on the police saying, Well, it`s not necessarily a crime. You have to go on your gut, and my gut tells me something`s wrong. Yours does, too. And that`s a reason, because we have these past cases where such horrific things...

GRACE: Right.

MORET: ... have happened to families.

GRACE: To Rose Hill, the mother of Marlo Hill Stivers, that is joining us tonight. Is there a reward?

HILL: Carol -- it`s a long name -- it`s...

GRACE: Carol Sund Carrington.

HILL: Yes. A friend of mine from Tommy (ph) Foundation is getting a hold of them and they`re getting hold of the police (INAUDIBLE) I guess they have -- if they`re OK...

GRACE: Thank you...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: ... issue the $5,000 reward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING, "THRILLER")

GRACE: You`re seeing some shots of Neverland at its peak. Neverland at risk, Michael Jackson facing a court call yet again. To Jim Moret, what`s the latest?

MORET: You know, you could always have that font "developing story" because there is always something developing on this story. We are told by Jackson`s camp that the money that Jackson owes to his employees, approximately 30 who have not been paid since December 19th, are going to be paid today.

The deadline was just about 30 minutes ago. We are told that each of the employees was given a specific time to show up, an appointment, if you will, to be paid all of those back wages amounting to over $300,000.

And the Labor Department says that they will be confirming that information tomorrow. So we won`t know for sure if Michael Jackson has in fact paid his employees until tomorrow morning. But we are told that they will be paid.

Pat Lalama, what is he looking at? How much money is he behind? What is the significance of today? I`m not going to believe it until I see the canceled check.

LALAMA: Well, boy, am I with you, Nancy. And wouldn`t you say, Mr. Moret, if it weren`t for the Jacksons, we might have been out of a job the last 15 years? I mean, it`s sad but true. But here`s the deal. I think it`s about $300,000 in back pay and if he doesn`t meet the deadline, there`s a fine.

But also, Nancy, remember, there`s that little workman`s comp issue so that even if he does pay back his employees, the place ain`t open for business unless he can protect those employees. And the way this whole can of worms opened was because one filed a claim and they went, whoops, no workman`s comp around here.

So I believe he could still live there, but I don`t think he can do any kind of business. And one of your producers and I were talk earlier about I suppose if they put a lien on the property, then perhaps he couldn`t live there, but that has not happened yet.

GRACE: To senior editor with In Touch Weekly, joining us right now, Tom O`Neil.

Let`s take it from the top for those unfamiliar with the case. Tom, what exactly is happening today?

TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: It`s the same thing what always happens, Nancy. This guy doesn`t pay his bills. We just went through this in November where he did not pay these employees for two months. He was ordered by a court again to pay up. Don`t you kind of wonder, why are they sticking around?

GRACE: How much are we talking about?

O`NEIL: Well, the current sums we discussed, $300,000 for back pay and penalties and fines of $170,000. You would think it would be financially worth it to this guy to fork over the $300,000 initially.

GRACE: OK. Back to Jim Moret. Can you give me a number? How much are we talking about?

MORET: We are talking about 300,000 in salary, 100,000 in penalties, 69,000 in penalties because of the workman`s comp, so what is that, 470,000, roughly. And, you know, Tom is right, this has happened before. Not only in November, this happened during the trial at least once or twice. And what may be happening here is Michael Jackson -- we`ve been talk being this for weeks, if not months, Nancy. There are some serious money problems here.

There`s a huge nearly $300 million outstanding debt that Michael Jackson is going to have to pay. He may not even be paying this $400,000. It may be coming from somewhere else. There`s one report that his sister Janet brought current the $2 million loan against the family compound in Encino.

So there are so many loans outstanding right now and it doesn`t appear that there`s money coming in from Michael Jackson, or if there is, he is still spending more than he is earning.

GRACE: Well, another issue is, where is Michael Jackson? The last time we heard from him, he was in Bahrain. Elizabeth, do you have that video?

Where exactly is he, Pat Lalama?

LALAMA: Well, you know what, that music sounds better than a lot of what we`ve heard from him over the last couple of albums. I just had to add that. And by the way, there is no Katrina record.

He is allegedly in Bahrain with prince, but I heard last week that he went off to Europe for a little while to go shopping. To buy what, I don`t know, and with what, I don`t know. I think, you know, he`s in hiding and I`ll bet he has probably got a little help from somebody to get him through this. Because I don`t think -- Jim could probably speak to it better, I don`t think he`s liquid. I mean, I just don`t think he`s got cash flow.

GRACE: To clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders, we`re talking about six figures, six figures of fines, losing Neverland, losing the Beatles catalog, which is hundreds of -- millions of dollars, actually. Do these money threats mean anything to Jackson in his state of mind?

PAT SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t know that they ever meant anything to Jackson, Nancy. Mr. Jackson`s hold on reality seems kind of tenuous. And he really prefers to live in a fantasy world or Neverland which I really don`t think he`s going to let that place go. It`s his bastion, his protection by virtue of wealth and celebrity from the evils of the world.

GRACE: Take a listen to what Jackson`s attorney Brian Oxman had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So I`m trying to find out about that $200 million he is supposed to pay up in December. Is he selling Neverland? And what about recent allegations that all of his exotic animals have gone uncared for while he is in Bahrain?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON ATTORNEY: The Department of Agriculture made an inspection of the ranch. They found it to be in complete order. There is no problem with the animals. He takes care of them marvelously.

GRACE: What about the Sony debt? About $200 million? Wasn`t that due back in December and did he get an extension?

OXMAN: That matter is being taken of. There are negotiations which are ongoing between all the parties.

GRACE: But why didn`t he pay it?

OXMAN: Well, I think that you have to take what`s going on there as a regular loan transaction where the parties are satisfied what`s going on and they are working it out.

GRACE: Brian, please, if I miss my note to the bank, we`re not going to work it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And what is exactly the law, Tiffany Koenig? How many times do you get extensions with banks? I`ve never been able to get one. OK? That`s why I`m really interested to find out how he is welching on these debts?

TIFFANY KOENIG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s going to be up to the individual bank that he has these loans with. If they are going to continue and continue and continue to work with him, he can have as many extensions as they are going to let him. But at some point in time they are going to get fed up and finally start filing a civil lawsuit against him.

Unfortunately, it kind of is in their advantage at this stage to start working with him because they are not going to see any money out of him anyway if they try to sue him.

GRACE: Well, you know, it`s trial 101. Those of us who are familiar with paying our bills on time know about repo, yes, repossession, that guy that sneaks up in the middle of the night, puts a boot on your car and takes it away. Repossession, a property from someone who defaults from payment. What about it, Renee Rockwell? He has been skating freestyle for a long time now not paying his debts.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, this is a situation where he`s hanging around with enough people to have enough money. This would be a drop in the bucket for the prince of Bahrain or the king`s son, but at some point you`re robbing Peter to pay Paul. He`s got to get out of his debt. You can`t spend more than you`re making. It`s not going to happen. And he`s going to just have to `fess up some day. Either lose the ranch, lose the Beatle collection, or just throw in the towel and start getting a job.

GRACE: Do you think -- Renee, do you think all of this time he`s been holding on to the Beatle catalog, which is worth millions and millions of dollars.

ROCKWELL: It`s worth a billion dollars.

GRACE: . it like collateral. Yes, thank you. I didn`t know the number. I can`t even really fathom what a billion dollars is. But this is kind of like his collateral.

ROCKWELL: It is, Nancy, and people that are lending him money, banks, friends, whoever is loaning him money, knows that at the end of the rainbow it`s there and it can be used. But at some point somebody is going to repossess that and it`s going to be gone. That`s what`s generating money for him at this point. That`s his capital.

GRACE: OK/ We all will remember the famous or infamous words of spokesperson for Jackson`s camp during his child molestation trial, Ramone Bain. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAMONE BAIN, JACKSON SPOKESPERSON: Michael lives here, he loves here, his family is here, his friends are here, his children are growing up here. And, you know, there have been so many rumors throughout this entire trial. You know, they`ve said that he was bankrupt. He is not. They have said he sold Neverland, he has not. They said he was going to flee a long time ago, he has not. I mean, it`s just preposterous some of the things that people are saying.

Michael Jackson has not sold Neverland and he will be remaining at Neverland and is not moving Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, if those checks are not distributed today, 5:00 p.m. California time -- well, that was 40 minutes ago, he is, in fact, in very deep financial trouble. What`s the worst that could happen, Tom O`Neil?

O`NEIL: They will file a lawsuit against him. The State of California will actually sue Michael Jackson, and that is going to be a long involved process that he just doesn`t want to go into.

You know, let`s step back a second, I want to pose the question why he doesn`t sell. He`s got three assets, you know, He`s got the Beatles catalog, which is, according to Forbes magazine, worth $450 million. He`s got $270 million of loans against it. Why doesn`t he sell part of it, at least? Neverland is estimated to be worth $55 million. He says he doesn`t want to live there anymore. Well, then sell it, Michael, and use this cash.

The third asset he has is his own music catalog which also includes some songs by Elvis Presley and Sly and Family Stone. That`s estimated to be $150 million. But of course, you could understand why he doesn`t want to sell that.

GRACE: Well, what is it with compulsive spenders, Dr. Saunders? Because remember the ill-fated special that aired about him that sparked the investigation into possible child molestation, showing him going on massive spending sprees in antique stores, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in just a couple of hours, more than we will ever make in our lifetime spent in one hour in a Vegas antique store.

SAUNDERS: That is wonderful question, Nancy. This is a compulsion. It`s an addiction with him. And like most compulsive spenders, he`s trying to fill an empty space inside of himself. He`s tried to fill that with a lot of things, but it`s there and he can`t fill it up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: He`ll need a prayer. Michael Jackson apparently hiding out in the city -- the country of Bahrain, far, far away from the long arm of United States law. Back to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition."

OK, how would you enforce a claim for money? And listen, let me tell you, if those paychecks had been distributed today, 45 minutes and 35 seconds ago, we would know about it. Oxman and Bain would have called us, 911, he paid, he paid. Uh-uh, no, no, no, that did not happen, I`m just telling you, Jim.

MORET: Well, let`s face it, if he`s out of the country, you`re not going to get him personally, but you could still put a lien on his house. The problem is, and Tom is right, This Neverland estate may be worth $50 million but he`s got outstanding debts against him of 25 million.

You know, I never know what you`re going to ask me about Michael Jackson because frankly there is so much to talk about.

GRACE: There is just so much.

MORET: Aljazeera.com (sic) had an interesting article today.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hey, wait, wait, wait. You know what, you know you are in trouble when you are in Al-Jazeera, right?

MORET: Well, and here`s the rumor, and it was interesting that you led in with the mosque and the prayers, because the rumors apparently have been circulating in that corner of the world over the past few months whether Michael Jackson is converting to Islam.

There was another report in the U.K. that he was shopping for a house last week just outside of London. But of course, we always come back to the same thing, if he`s buying a house, where is the money coming from? He seems to be tapped out, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, I think I saw him today in the makeup department of Duane Reade. But that`s just me. Look, this guy could be anywhere. So if they want the money, Pat Lalama, how are they going to get it, other than, hey, what about all those millions of dollars worth of antiques he`s got stacked up in Neverland?

LALAMA: Well, somebody would just go in and do an assessment. I mean, but my gosh, it would be a nickel here, a dime there. This guy owes huge money. I think the only answer here is to make him stay in the Middle East and go negotiate a peace treaty with Iraq and then all is forgiven, what do you think?

GRACE: Pat Lalama, always on top of a situation. Tiffany Koenig, give me your best advice for Mr. Jackson.

KOENIG: Well, he needs to probably stay out of the country so he doesn`t get served and sued.

GRACE: So you advise him to stay in Bahrain and hide under the bed? Advise well given, Tiffany. Renee Rockwell, advice?

ROCKWELL: I would just lean up next to one of those princes and get a couple of million dollars just to get me straight and then get some new managers in there to slow my spending down.

GRACE: Well, the reality is, Patricia Saunders, look, this guy is incredibly talented, but he`s not like everybody on this panel. We know how to punch a time clock. OK? I started when I was 16 at Sears & Roebuck. Punch the clock and work. You get in there and you work. You learn how to work the cash register. You do what you got to do to get that paycheck. This guy can bring in $1 million to sing one song at some prince`s kid`s birthday. OK? He can do that. Why doesn`t he, Patricia?

SAUNDERS: Well, this is just a guess, but given rumors of Mr. Jackson`s former problems with substances, I wonder if he isn`t using a lot of drugs right now which is seriously impairing his functioning.

GRACE: Hey, you know, Pat Lalama, I`ve never been one for life coaches, but this guy needs a life coach. Somebody needs to get in there, pay his bills, instead of all of these parasites living off of him, and get his life straight.

LALAMA: Nancy, you just hit the nail on the head. You see, everybody is using -- or at least was using Michael Jackson to their advantage. I said it on your show a few nights ago.

GRACE: I mean, his own brother is allegedly writing a tell-all saying he suspected him of child molestation. I don`t know why he couldn`t say that at the trial.

LALAMA: Well, see, that`s exactly what I`m talking about. Instead, they all showed up in their white outfits, oh we`re in unity, we love Michael, he would never do anything to a child. Then we heard that allegedly on these audiotapes, Jermaine is telling this author of a book that never came out, I`m worried, I think he might have a little thing for kids, we are worried about our own nieces and nephews. He has a drug problem, an alcohol problem, yet as soon as Michael says, oh, well, guess what, Jermaine, you`re not going to have a place to live anymore, oh, oh, sorry, little brother, I didn`t say that. I mean it`s disgusting, these people -- and, Nancy, do I have name to say one more thing?

GRACE: Hurry, 15 seconds.

LALAMA: OK. There were former law enforcement people -- former law enforcement people who worked at that ranch that saw things and never came forward. Everybody is on the take.

GRACE: Very quickly everybody, and we`ll all be right back on the Michael Jackson story before we sign off tonight. Let`s go to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin."

Law enforcement on the lookout for Joseph Dibee, wanted in connection with arson in the West. Dibee, 38, 6`3", 150 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info call 503-224-4181. Local news for most of you, but we`ll all be right back.

And remember, live coverage of a 73-year-old Vermont woman who allegedly bludgeoned her husband to death, 3 to 5 Eastern p.m., in the front yard, COURT TV.

Let`s slow it down a moment and remember Army Sergeant Jessie Davila, just 29 years old, Greensburg, Kansas, killed by an insurgent bomb. Davila served as a Marine after high school, went civilian, built a family, then went back to the National Guard. Jessie Davila, Marine, soldier, American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: There is no book about Michael, no negativity, I stand behind him 1,000 percent, like I said since day one, and he`s still that wonderful person that he`s always been.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, when Michael Jackson walked out to allegations he committed child molestation, he seemed to be home free. What could be worse? I don`t know. Straight back to Jim Moret.

I know this isn`t as bad as being in jail, but for someone like Michael Jackson, to lose your money, I mean, you and I could go get a job. We could work at a law firm. We could work in the DA`s office. We could go flip burgers at McDonald`s, for pete`s sake. Jackson is not psychologically equipped to work like everybody else.

MORET: Well, but he`s never had to work like everyone else. He`s very talented. You said it yourself. He could make a million dollars.

GRACE: But in his day, Jim Moret, in his day, starting when he was a little bitty kid, he probably put in 18-, 20-hour days, remember how.

MORET: He probably did.

GRACE: . the way his daddy drove him.

MORET: Sure. But you said earlier he could make $1 million by singing one song. The fact is if he`s physically capable of performing, he can make a tremendous amount of money. Jermaine Jackson, who said that he was not writing a tell-all book, despite what Stacy Brown, the author, said, also indicated that Michael Jackson is doing 300 pushups a day and getting in better shape. Who knows what to believe?

GRACE: Say what?

MORET: That`s -- I`m just reporting what was said by Jermaine Jackson.

GRACE: I can`t believe you even said that with a straight face, Jim Moret. I lost a little bit of respect for you, 300 pushups?

MORET: I did attribute it to the source. So I`m just telling you.

GRACE: OK. You sourced it. You know what, back to Dr. Saunders. I`ve got to go back to the shrink on this. It`s not going to happen. This guy is not going to even sing one song, not one "Billy Jean" and pay off this debt, is he?

SAUNDERS: No, Nancy. I think he`s going to slowly fade away into abayas and other strange things that we can`t even dream of.

GRACE: Renee, you know, very quickly, I`ve just got a few seconds left. When you see clients spinning out of control, do you try as a lawyer to intervene and do something?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, you can`t stop somebody from their own poison, but I do think -- in disagreement with everybody else, I do think that he will go back to work.

GRACE: OK. Well, we will see.

Thank you to all of my guests, but tonight and every night, our biggest thank you is to you for inviting us into your homes. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for this Thursday night. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END