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INSIGHT

Taliban in Pakistan

Aired March 20, 2006 - 18:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST: After the Taliban was kicked out of Kabul, it found a new place to enforce its extreme vision of Islam, and now the Pakistani government may have a choice: surrender or go to war for Waziristan.
Hello and welcome.

The big important events of our time don't end quickly and cleanly like the chapter in a book or closing credits on the screen. Sometimes, after the world stops paying attention the process plays on anyway.

That's the best way to describe what's happening right now in a place you've probably never heard of, Waziristan. Waziristan is named after one of the tribes that lives there, the land of the Wazirs. It's mostly empty land, 10,000 square kilometers of it, mountainous and inaccessible terrain in Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province.

It is also where the Taliban forced refuge after being forced from Afghanistan, a refuge that it's turning into its own Islamic republic. The government of Pakistan has a problem because it can't easily eject the intruders from that part of the country. The truth is, it can't really do much of anything easily there.

On our program today, where the Taliban took hold.

We begin with CNN's Mike Chinoy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SR. ASIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Taliban appear to have taken effective control of much of the rugged Pakistani tribal area called Waziristan, and this is the result. The brutal system America went to war in Afghanistan to destroy recreated just across the border in Pakistan. These men executed, their bodies dragged through the streets, the chilling scene, the Taliban claims, recorded by their own cameramen.

Journalist Ahmed Rashid wrote the definitive book on the Taliban.

AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR, "TALIBAN": It's very similar to what has been going on -- or what was going on in the early period of the Taliban rule in Afghanistan. They are hanging people and torturing people who they consider as un-Islamic or who they consider as brigands (ph) or bandits. They're imposing very strict rules on women. There have been some areas where TVs have been burned or broken.

CHINOY: And in a video, as slickly produced as it is gruesome, flaunting their brutality, verses from the Koran superimposed on dangling corpses, the fate of unbelievers, the narrator intones. Jihad against bandits; Allah punishes the oppressors.

SAMINA AHMED, INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: Judging by this documentary that they've made, they're boasting about what they've done. It seems that they have a fairly comfortable position, that they are -- they don't feel threatened, that they are pretty much in control.

CHINOY (on camera): Reinforcing that impression, the video was shot not in some remote mountain hideout but in Waziristan's main town, Miranshah. And it shows events which it says occurred just in the last couple of months.

RASHID: They are eliminating any tribesman or tribal chiefs who are allied to the government. Something like 100 tribal chiefs, or malicks (ph) as we call them, have been assassinated in the past one year alone.

CHINOY(voice-over): So pervasive is the Taliban's grip that 70,000 Pakistani troops have been unable to dislodge them despite fierce battles like this. Instead, the army's campaign has alienated many locals, mainly Pashtun tribes who practice an extremely conservative form of Islam and have long resisted the authority of the government in Islamabad.

The result: growing support for the Taliban and for Osama bin Laden, who is widely believed to be hiding in the region.

RASHID: There has been an enormous radicalization and extremism has become very popular there. Clearly, bin Laden has a very sympathetic base in which to hide, in which to operate from.

CHINOY: One consequence: Waziristan has become an increasingly important base for launching attacks against U.S. and Afghan government forces across the border in Afghanistan.

RASHID: I think it's important as a base, because you have there not just Afghan Taliban, but you have Arabs, Central Asians, Chechens, Africans. The same kind of groups of people that you had in Afghanistan before 9/11.

CHINOY: So concerned has the Afghan government become that President Hamid Karzai has publicly denounced Pakistan for failing to rein in the jihadis, even presenting Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf with a list of alleged terrorists said to be hiding on the Pakistani side of the border.

The accusation infuriated Musharraf and has generated a bitter public quarrel between the two most important U.S. allies in the war on terror.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: I am totally disappointed with their intelligence and I feel there is a very, very deliberate attempt to malign Pakistan by some agents and President Karzai is totally oblivious of what is happening in his own country.

CHINOY: Indeed, the Taliban's video underscores the fact that the situation appears to be getting worse. At the bazaar in Miranshah, crowds gawking at the bodies of men hanged as criminals, some accused of possessing pornographic material, others of drinking alcohol, while the narrator declares, "After you see this video, maybe you will feel more support for the cause of jihad."

Mike Chinoy, CNN, Islamabad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Well, as you just heard in Mike's report, Waziristan may be remote, but it's front and center when it comes to a growing rift between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Tim Lister has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM LISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It began when General Musharraf accused Afghanistan of bad faith in publicizing a list of al Qaeda fugitives supposedly in Pakistan just as he was welcoming President Bush.

MUSHARRAF: Why were they waiting for a presidential visit to hand me over this list? What was stopping them from giving this list, of sharing these numbers immediately on occurrence? Is that the way intelligence functions?

LISTER: Afghan officials shot back, describing the intelligence provided to Pakistan as strong and accurate.

ABDULLAH ABDULLAH, AFGHAN FOREIGN MIN. (through translator): They ask us for intelligence. When we provide intelligence, then they claim that the information is weak, we have better intelligence, and also they acknowledge the existence of the terrorist training camps on their side of the border, but they do not take any action.

LISTER: Pakistani officials are anxious that the United States is taking Afghanistan's side in this spat, especially given the tone of President Bush's remarks at this month's summit.

GEORGE BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: Part of my mission today was to determine whether or not the president is as committed as he has been in the past to bringing these terrorists to justice, and he is.

LISTER: Officials weren't happy to hear that Pakistan's commitment was ever in doubt. But the Bush visit was a hit in one way. It became fodder for a popular TV spoof, referring to al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.

Musharraf says they're in north Waziristan and they're in south Waziristan, there are several hundred there, maybe a thousand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an air of despondency when Mr. Bush came and when he left and we thought the best way to sort of cope with it was to analyze it, but in a satirical manner.

LISTER: In real life, the Pakistani army continues a grinding campaign in the tribal areas that border Afghanistan. Last week the Frontier Constabulary blew up a mosque in the town of Miranshah that was alleged to offer sanctuary to militants. Hundreds of refugees fled the town.

When Afghan President Hamid Karzai was in Pakistan last month, he described the two countries as twins. But his relations with General Musharraf have never been very warm. Afghanistan suspects that elements inside Pakistan intelligence are secretly supporting the remnants of the Taliban to keep Karzai's government week. Pakistan denies that and points to the commitment of 80,000 troops in the border region. It says that the recent fighting shows that, if anything, the militants are moving in the other direction from Afghanistan to Pakistan.

Now the squabbling between the so-called twins threatens to undermine the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban in the mountains that straddle the 2,500 kilometer Pakistan-Afghan border.

Just as U.S. commanders in the region say terrorists pose a greater threat in Afghanistan than at anytime since the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001.

Tim Lister, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We take a break now. When we come back, more on the predicament that's facing Pakistan.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: It took troops backed by helicopter gunships and artillery to regain control of one of the major towns of Waziristan, Miranshah, where hundreds of local fighters seized government buildings earlier this month. That small uprising was organized in retaliation for an earlier military attack, the bombing of an alleged militant camp. The government says 140 fighters have been killed in the encounters.

Welcome back.

Miranshah is where Mike Chinoy showed us the bodies of local men, victims of the Taliban's brand of justice, where Tim Lister showed us civilians fleeing. It is now back in government hands, but for how long?

The government of Pakistan has never really ruled Waziristan. No one ever has, except for the tribes that live there. No other law has ever mattered. Why would a place like that embrace the Taliban?

Joining us now to talk about that is Jehangir Karamat, Pakistan ambassador to the United States.

Ambassador, thanks so much for being with us.

How would you describe what's going on in Waziristan now?

JEHANGIR KARAMAT, PAKISTANI AMB. TO U.S.: Well, I saw the thing you showed, and I think there is a problem there, but I think it's under control. It's contained.

Waziristan, as you said, is an area with Afghanistan on one side, with the United States and Afghan forces there. On the other side you have very heavy military forces from Pakistan. So there are episodes there, there are events there, but generally the area is under control.

Miranshah was just one incident where things did go out of control for a while, but the Pakistan army very quickly regained control.

MANN: Well, let me ask you about that, because what you call events or episodes, there is also the question of day to day life, and at least to outside journalists who visit the region, day to day life seems to be increasingly under the sway, under the rule, according to the rules of the Taliban.

KARAMAT: You know, the Taliban is from southern Afghanistan and, yes, they have sympathizers. Some of them have found their sanctuary there, as have people, aliens, from other countries and regions around us. That is a situation there, and, yes, the Taliban or these extremists would like to carry out acts which indicate that they are in control and nobody else is in control.

But falling for that and going around saying that the area is totally under their control, I don't think is true. Waziristan depends on Pakistan for everything. So how can they control that area? They do carry out these extreme acts of violence and create situations which to some people indicate that they're in control, but that's not true.

MANN: So they're not in control. And let me ask you, more to the point, some people say there is an emerging war there now over that region, trying to wrest control from the Taliban, trying to wrest it even from the tribal leaders who control it, and put it firming into the control of the government of Pakistan. Is that true? 80,000 troops, after all, do count for something.

KARAMAT: Yes, that's true, but the 80,000 troops have been there for a long time. The area is under surveillance. There is effective intelligence, and whenever there is actionable intelligence, there is action taken.

The area is literally surrounded on all sounds, so I don't think it's necessarily regaining control. It's an area where we've always had control. There is a civil administration under the government which is working on the political track. There is the military, which is working the other track. You have to be careful not to cause collateral damage because there are people there and I just think that it's a situation coming in from the drugs and the warlord situation in Afghanistan, from the millions of Afghan refugees who are still in Pakistan. And a handful who are there creating these problems.

MANN: Well, you've covered a lot of ground there, but let me go back to one very important point. You said that it's always been under government control. People from President Musharraf on down have said that it's never been under government control, going back to the British empire, no one has really controlled it.

KARAMAT: You know, the point is that it is a tribal area and there has been a special structure to deal with the tribes. They're pretty much left alone to run their own affairs, but whenever the writ of the government has to be established or whenever there are acts of violence or kidnappings or elements within the tribal area that resort to crime, then there is a mechanism for dealing with that. There is a political mechanism, which has worked very well in British days and subsequently later, and we've been in touch with the tribal malicks (ph). We deal with them to get whatever we want.

Unfortunately, this time, because of the aliens there and the fact that we had to carry out a military operation in that area, the army had to move in.

MANN: Let me ask you about the aliens, because, of course, Afghanistan blames people operating in Pakistan for its problems. The government of Pakistan blames Afghans or others who come in from Afghanistan for the problems it's having.

How many militants, insurgents, fighters or Taliban or in Waziristan and how many of them do you think came over from Afghanistan?

KARAMAT: I think most of them came over from Afghanistan, because your correspondent himself said this is where they have sought sanctuary. So obviously they're coming from outside.

But they have sympathizers, they speak the same language, they dress the same, they look the same, so it's very hard to tell who is a Pakistani and who is an Afghan in that area, but I would think that most of the Taliban there have come in from Afghanistan or Chechnya or areas like that. They are extremists, they have problems and I would say they're in the hundreds and nothing more than that.

MANN: One last quick question for you. How serious are the problems between Afghanistan and Pakistan in both governments trying to address the insurgents in their midst?

KARAMAT: I think both Afghanistan and Pakistan know that this is a problem that they have to address together. There is no answer except cooperation, and if there isn't cooperation and if there is this blame game going on and this kind of problem, then the only ones who will gain will be the people we are trying to deal with.

MANN: Jehangir Karamat, Pakistani ambassador to the United States, thanks so much for talking with us.

KARAMAT: Thank you, Jonathan.

We take a break now. When we come back, a look at a different part of the story. In Pakistan, the Taliban aren't the only extremists on the scene. The problems that poses for the country, both at home and abroad in a moment.

Do stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf is in a bind. He has to accommodate his country's influential Islamist parties and organizations to help his hold on power. He also has to work against the extreme Islamist groups that threaten his authority and his relations with the West.

Welcome back.

By one estimate, there are 58 registered political parties in the country and there are 24 known militant religious groups. The government has its hands full working with some and against others. Can it have it both ways?

Joining us now to talk about that is Khalid Hasan, Washington correspondent of Pakistan's "Daily Times" newspaper.

Thanks so much for being with us.

We've been talking about Waziristan. I think you heard the ambassador say that there really isn't much of a problem there. Outsiders look at the rest of the country and say there is, on a different level, a problem with religious parties and religious extremist groups and how the government has to juggle them or manage them. Do you think that's fair?

KHALID HASAN, "DAILY TIMES": Well, I think the government really has been soft on some of these extremist groups and in fact the present regime's policy to leave out, to eliminate, moderate and liberal political parties, such as Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan Peoples Party, that has really played -- the government has nobody to blame but themselves because it has played into the hands of Islamist parties. And one of them has a government in the very sensitive province of Northwest Frontier Province and in Golojistan (ph) too, they are in a coalition.

So the government really has to make up its mind. You can't run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

MANN: You're talking about the MMA, the United Action Front, in English. How influential is that alliance of parties?

HASAN: I don't think it's influential at all. I think its influence is vastly exaggerated. And had it not been for the very sort of certain measures which the government took and certain laws that it enacted, the MMA would never have performed so well.

In Pakistan's entire electoral history, the extremist parties, the Islamist parties, have done very poorly. And this is the first time that there is an Islamist party in power in a very key Pakistan province.

MANN: You mentioned Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister. She complains that in fact at a very simple level the government has stopped secular parties from demonstrating in the streets. It's essentially stopped demonstrations of any kind unless they're against the West or against the United States.

HASAN: I think Ms. Bhutto is quite right when she says that because it seems that whenever secular parties or liberal parties or parties which the government doesn't favor, they want to demonstrate for a perfectly legitimate democratic cause, they are prevented from doing so, and when the mullahs, the beards, want to hit the streets, they're unable to do that.

MANN: Now, it's not just demonstrations. Let me read to you something that I read from a gentleman whose columns appear in your newspaper, the "Daily Times." His name is Ephraim Hussein (ph). He says, "Reports have surfaced from time to time about Pakistani fighters operating as far away as Bosnia, Chechnya and even in western China."

Once again, continuing his quotation, "While Islamabad maintains plausible deniability, these men could hardly be acting on their own. Almost certainly Islamic parties within Pakistan back them."

How much violence or how much militancy is attached to some of these Islamic groups?

HASAN: Well, there are some groups which are very militant, you know, and the government has banned them, but then they reemerge under different names and some of them operate quite freely.

So I think the time has come when the government really has to get its act together and, you know, General Musharraf speaks of enlightened moderation, but I think it has to go beyond a slogan. He really has to show it.

MANN: Why hasn't he already?

HASAN: I don't know. Maybe he lacks conviction. Maybe people tell him -- his advisers tell him that he cannot be (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You know, when he came to power he said that his hero was Mustafa Kemal, the founder of modern Turkey.

MANN: A secularist. A very militant secularist.

HASAN: Absolutely. And that was the first and the last time that General Musharraf mentioned Mustafa Kemal's name, because the Islamists and the fundamentalist parties and the religious parities, they immediately reacted because in their book Mustafa Kemal was not a good Muslim and General Musharraf kind of pulled in his horns and that is what he has done, you know, repeatedly, whenever there is some resistance to something liberal he is doing. He always pulls back. So one step forward, two steps back.

MANN: How does that influence the situation in a place like Waziristan? Once again, that's within Northwest Frontier, where the MMA is ruling. It's a place that the government says it doesn't really have a problem in, and yet it's grappling with all of these sectarian forces.

HASAN: I think the government of Pakistan certainly has a problem and the time has really come, to be quite honest about this, I mean, what is it -- on what side of the street are we -- are we on this side? Are we on that side? And the government really has to come clean on this.

MANN: President Musharraf would like the West to believe that he has sided with the West in the debate over the role of Islam in society, that it will be tolerated and respected and revered as the religion of his people, but it won't influence the policy or even the human rights of Pakistanis.

Ultimately, is he misrepresenting his own position and what he is prepared to do?

HASAN: I mean, I quite believe that General Musharraf certainly has liberal tendencies and he really probably believes what he says. But he has always been very short on action. He somehow is diffident. He is either afraid or he's too careful.

So I think the time has come that when he really has to be forthright and he really has to translate what he says into action, into deeds.

MANN: Let me ask you one last quick question. It has been the surprise of the United States and many Western observers to see the rise of Islamist parties in places like Egypt, where they've been prevented from taking power, and in places like the Palestinian territories, where they are taking power.

If there really is a fair election in the near future in Pakistan, how powerful do you think these parties will emerge as?

HASAN: The Islamist parties will be eliminated. They absolutely have no popular base, and people are sick and tired of them and if there is a free election, which I doubt given the way things are, then there is no chance that these parties will win.

MANN: Khalid Hasan, of the "Daily Times," thanks so much for talking with us.

HASAN: Thank you.

MANN: That's INSIGHT. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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