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Nancy Grace
Murder Indictment Handed to Suspect in Killing of Woman in New York
Aired March 22, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. A secret grand jury hands down a murder one indictment against bar bouncer Darryl Littlejohn. According to a CNN source, Littlejohn now formally charged in the brutal assault and torture, the deaht of 24-year-old grad student Imette St. Guillen. What facts did these grand jury indicments that are just handed down reveal?
And tonight, more news breaking in America's heartland, Milwaukee. Two boys, 11 and 12 years old, go missing. They weren't at the mall. They were not out on motor scooters. They were not getting in trouble. They were just outside their own home, playing basketball on a Sunday afternoon- - vanished, gone. Tonight, an intense manhunt under way, police using dogs, thermo imaging, volunteers, all in the desperate search for two little boys.
Good evening, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, developing story, as the search intensifies for two little boys, 11 and 12. They disappeared just outside their Milwaukee home.
But first tonight, breaking news in the New York grad student murder mystery, raven-haired beauty 24-year-old Imette St. Guillen, last seen alive leaving a local bar. Tonight, a source tells CNN a grand jury hands down a formal indictment for assault and murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darryl Littlejohn's blood was found on plastic ties that were used to bind Imette's hands behind her back
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are under a tremendous amount of pressure to solve this crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is evidence that puts the telephone that Mr. Littlejohn had in his possession in the immediate vicinity of where the body was located.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does he remember her from that night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are witnesses that put the victim in the company of Mr. Littlejohn when she left the bar that evening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How is he ever going to get a fair trial? He's considered an animal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The (INAUDIBLE) people on the streets are bitter (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you to the Imette St. Guillen indictment that has just been handing down-- handed down, I'm hearing in my ear from the control room-- let's go straight to the LA area around Garden Grove, to CNN car chase expert Rod Bersen. Rod, what's going on?
ROD BERNSEN, FORMER LA REPORTER, RETIRED LA POLICE SGT.: Nancy, an an extraordinary pursuit in the Los Angeles area. It started in southern Orange County around Huntington Beach. It's now in the Torrence (ph) area. That's after it went through surface streets and freeways into Anaheim, up through Anaheim and Santa Anna (ph) into downtown Los Angeles, over to the South Bay. And now he just off the--
GRACE: Holy moly! Did he just sideswipe that guy?
BERNSEN: Yeah, he probably did. He's been hit a number of times by the highway patrol, using the pursuit intervention technique. It's called a pit (ph) maneuver. And he's managed to steer his way back away from the police, into the pursuit. He also, at one point, got off the freeway and actually drove down the embankment, through the ice (ph) plant back onto a surface street. He's been driving extraordinarily dangerously! There's been a number of minor collisions involving other people on the street. It's a miracle--
GRACE: Look at that! Look at that!
BERNSEN: Yeah, it's just a miracle that there hasn't been a serious crash. Here you see him on the wrong side of the road. Fortunately, he had a green light there. The highway patrol is the primary unit pursuing him now, but now he is in the Torrence/South Bay area of Los Angeles County. And you can see his extreme speeds! Also, Nancy, it's the beginning of the rush hour, and everywhere he's been driving has been very, very congested.
GRACE: But why? Why, Rod, is he running from police?
BERNSEN: Well, Nancy, the best that we know at this point, he's driving-- allegedly driving a stolen car. That's where the pursuit started in south Huntington Beach.
GRACE: Oh, good Lord! You're kidding me! Everybody, with me, Rod Bernsen, former police sergeant there in California. So all of this is over a car?
BERNSEN: Over a stolen car, Nancy. And as you well know, there's two ways to charge this, the misdemeanor, driving without owner's consent, which is basically nothing in terms of a conviction, or a felony. But this guy has slipped way over the line. He's now at least facing felony charges for evading, as well as reckless driving, as well as numerous, numerous hit- and-run accidents.
GRACE: Is he in a residential area?
BERNSEN: Right now, he's in a residential area. Fortunately-- right through that stop sign! Did you see that?
GRACE: Yes.
BERNSEN: The diffeficulty here is the cross-traffic, Nancy, right-hand collision prospects here, with people pulling in and out of their driveways, businesses, pedestrians on the street, kids on bicycles. One of the difficulties when you get on surface streets like this is just that.
GRACE: OK, question. You said it's rush hour. It's getting to be rush hour there. It's 5:05 in the afternoon. It also means kids have gotten home from school. They're out and about on the streets.
BERNSEN: And you know what, Nancy? This pursuit has been going on for quite a while. And tragically, what happens is people are watching the coverage, and some of them in the neighborhood where the pursuit is actually run out towards the street, although in this particular case, we haven't seen it. And given how badly this guy is driving, I'm hoping that people don't do that.
GRACE: You mentioned--
BERNSEN: Wrong side of the road, Nancy.
GRACE: You mentioned something about pit maneuvers. What's that?
BERNSEN: The pit maneuver is when the police unit will pull up to the left or right rear quarter panel of the car and then push it out of control. And if they can pin him to a curb or to a parked car, then that brings the pursuit to an end. The highway patrol is very experienced at it, use it. And unfortunately, he's been able to counter that pit maneuver and continue to run.
GRACE: Is it true this guy's been driving on the sidewalks?
BERNSEN: He's been driving everywhere, including down an embankment, as I mentioned, off the freeway, through parking lots, on sidewalks--
GRACE: Ruh-roh!
BERNSEN: --on the wrong side of the road--
GRACE: Can you see this? He just got to a railroad crossing.
BERNSEN: Right. Now, he's going to parallel the tracks there, and with any luck, he's going to run into a dead end, and then we'll see what happens.
GRACE: What does he think this, is a video game? That's the way he's driving.
BERNSEN: Well, you know, Nancy, one of the things--
GRACE: Keep on going, fella! You're headed straight for a dead end, I hope!
BERNSEN: Yeah. And what a lot of people say is, Why is he doing this? And when you arrest somebody like this and you ask them, they say, Well, I thought I could get away. You know you're not going to get away!
GRACE: Is that a cop car right behind him?
BERNSEN: There's a black-and-white right behind him. Now he's going to make a right-hand turn there.
GRACE: Oh, good Lord!
BERNSEN: Isn't this extraordinary? And just think--
GRACE: Oh!
BERNSEN: Yeah. It looks like he's going to try and--
GRACE: Finally, Mother Nature had to intervene.
BERNSEN: Oh, how about that? (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Hey, you better not run. You-- he is running!
BERNSEN: Yeah. Can you believe that?
GRACE: The fool is running.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSEN: --after all of that. Now, this police officer-- now, look at that! He's going to his waist there with his left hand. Did you see that?
GRACE: Oh! I saw that. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! To the waistband!
BERNSEN: And the problem there is, you know, is he armed? Look at that! He keeps going into his pockets. And he keeps that up, and they confront him, he's going to end up getting shot. Fortunately, there's a couple of choppers overhead. The sheriff's department could have a chopper, LAPD could have a chopper. And this guy's not getting away. He's just prolonging the inevitable here.
GRACE: It concerns me that he keeps reaching for his waistband because--
BERNSEN: Exactly.
GRACE: --nobody everybody believes it when cops say he reached for his waistband. Oh! Oh! Oh!
BERNSEN: Look at that! (INAUDIBLE) repeatedly going to his waistband, Nancy.
GRACE: And he-- oh, please, do not pull out a gun. Please do not pull out a gun.
BERNSEN: OK, here come the cops! What's he going to do?
GRACE: You know that? That-- oh!
BERNSEN: WHat's he going to do? He's-- look, he--
GRACE: I can't believe this!
BERNSEN: --refuses to give up. What's he going to do? Now he's going to go down. Oh, now he wants to fight! Look at that! Oh, my God!
GRACE: What is this guy on, meth?
BERNSEN: It's entirely possible, Nancy. Now, what you should see here is a number of other officers should come up and help those two officers. It's called a swarm technique. They're going to try--
GRACE: Hey, cops, pay attention! You're on camera.
BERNSEN: Yeah, they're going to try and get his hands behind his back.
GRACE: No Rodney King action, please!
BERNSEN: Well, you know, Nancy, in all fairness, what looks horrible on television-- the truth is, is that if somebody doesn't want to be handcuffed, it's very, very difficult. You have at least three officers-- look! It looks like they're asking for more officers. Now, remember, this guy--
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Good Lord! They're still calling. They're still calling for officers.
BERNSEN: Exactly. What they want is they want an officer on each leg, an officer on each arm. And the two officers, initially, all they could do is hold him down and hold onto his hands because the hands will hurt you. He's handcuffed. Look at that.
GRACE: You know what? You know what? With me, Rod Bernsen, former police sergeant, chase expert. My prayers have been answered. When it all first started, Rod, and he was driving through those residential areas, I prayed to God some kid wouldn't dash out, chasing a ball or on a bicycle.
BERNSEN: It truly is a miracle, Nancy, the way this maniac was driving for as long as he was driving, that somebody wasn't killed or seriously injured.
GRACE: And how long has this been going on?
BERNSEN: I think it was going on for something like a half hour to 45 minutes before you came to me.
GRACE: Well, OK--
BERNSEN: Just extraordinary.
GRACE: --last question to you, Rod Bernsen. How many felonies do you think this guy's racked up?
BERNSEN: Well, certainly, felony evading. He's also-- in any of the collisions, anybody with even minor-- have received minor injuries, he's got felony hit-and-run there. But you know, Nancy, you might explain to the audience about wobblers (ph) and how the district attorney does not want to charge felonies. There's very few people that end up in state prison just based on the felony evading alone. They generally plead it out for some sort of--
GRACE: Well, what about the fact that--
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: --he is a fleeing felon?
BERNSEN: Exactly. Well, you know, that's considered a wobbler. And generally, what happens in a sentence bargain is he'll plead to the misdemeanor and he'll get a misdemeanor sentence, and then that way, they don't have to go through--
GRACE: Hey, Mom!
BERNSEN: --a trial--
GRACE: Look! No hands! They're handcuffed behind me.
BERNSEN: And Nancy, this is really important. Notice the post-pursuit discipline here?
GRACE: Yeah, you better pray, fella!
BERNSEN: --post-pursuit discipline. They just did what they had to do. They hooked him up. And that was it, no beating, no kicking. And now the officers are talking amongst themselves, and what they're trying to do is decompress the adrenaline that's pumping through their veains right now. They're just walking around, talking to each other, trying to decompress, now that this guy's in custody.
GRACE: You know what? I was so concerned when I saw him, as you pointed out, Rod Bernsen, reaching for his waistband. What I want to find out is what this guy's record is. Why did he run for so long, why he's so afraid to be caught simply with a stolen car. With me, CNN car chase expert and a former police sergeant Rod Bernsen. Thank you, Rod.
BERNSEN: You're welcome, Nancy.
GRACE: We'll keep you updated throughout the evening, throughout the show tonight. Man, close call!
Let's go back, Elizabeth, to our St. Guillen case. Tonight, breaking news. The killer, the alleged killer in the Imette St. Guillen case, the New York City grad student, formal indictment has come down, according to CNN sources. There we have him in his smart look, wearing his glasses.
Straight out to court reporter with "The New York Daily News" Nancie Kast. Sorry, Nancie. The car chase took over us all. Now let's get down to business. Tell me about the indictment we believe that was handed down today.
NANCIE KAST, ``NEW YORK DAILY NEWS'': Well, Darryl Littlejohn was indicted for what I believe to be first degree murder by a grand jury in Brooklyn. It's a secret proceeding. However, our sources tell us that there was a vote after a week of testimony and that they went for murder one, which means that he has to-- beyond murdering her, he's charged with either torturing her or another crime that goes along with the murder.
GRACE: What time did this go to the grand jury today, Nancie?
KAST: Well, they started in the morning. I believe the vote was in the early afternoon. And they filed it this afternoon, later in the day.
GRACE: Let's go straight out to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. Pat, bring us up to date.
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, the thing is, Nancy, it looks like all the pieces are coming together for the prosecution in this case. They needed that DNA evidence, and we know now that they have confirmed that they believe it is his blood that was on the ties that were binding her hands, which were behind her back. Now, that's good.
But according to authorities, they also say they have other evidence, not just that DNA evidence. They have witnesses who can claim they saw the two at 4:00 in the morning, leaving the bar. Remember, they also have hair and fibers that they believe will most likely end up tying him. So they have a pretty strong case, they believe, at this point. Most likely, they will open that indictment, we'll hear all the details sometime tomorrow. He still, remember, is behind bars because of that probation violation. His lawyer says, It wasn't my guy. He's a scapgoat. And we're just going to have to see.
GRACE: Well, believe it or not, as you recall, recently, this guy, Darryl Littlejohn, actually spoke to a local reporter by the phone--
LALAMA: Right.
GRACE: --early on a Sunday morning. Well, guess what? It's hard to put a sock in this pie-hole. He spoke from behind bars. Oh, yes, he did! Take a listen to Littlejohn speaking to local WCBS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT WEINBERGER, WCBS-TV: Were you working that night?
DARRYL LITTLEJOHN, CHARGED WITH MURDER OF IMETTE ST. GUILLEN: Yes, I was.
WEINBERGER: Did you see Imette St. Guillen at the bar?
LITTLEJOHN: At the end of the night, yes, just before closing.
WEINBERGER: Did somebody ask you to escort her out?
LITTLEJOHN: Yes. It was close to closing time, all the other patrons had left the bar, and I was asked to escort her.
WEINBERGER: Did you do that?
LITTLEJOHN: Yes. That's normal. Upon closing time, the stragglers or whoever's remaining in the bar, they have to be out of there-- off the premises at 4:00 AM or the bar gets fined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is exclusive footage, an interview with the suspect, Darryl Littlejohn. As you can see, Littlejohn showing no emotion. That is from WCBS's interview with Darryl Littlejohn behind bars.
Straight to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. Why can't this guy be quiet? You know his lawyer's told him, Don't talk to anybody.
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it's true. But Nancy, you know that one of the-- one of the features that we've learned about Littlejohn is that he self-aggrandizes and takes on other characterizations, pretends to be a different guy, you know, wears his fatigue stuff. So this just all-- he's playing the role now of innocent bystander, nice guy. You know, I'm a bouncer, I escorted her out. He's just self-aggrandizing. He's trying to create a false persona. That's what he does. This is what this guy does.
GRACE: Breaking news tonight in the Imette St. Guillen case, an indictment, according to CNN sources, has been handed down against the bouncer at that bar, Darryl Littlejohn. What are those possible charges? Right now it's sealed, but we believe we know what those charges will be and what the evidence will reveal.
Very quickly, to tonight's "Trial Tracking." It's a not guilty (INAUDIBLE) for a man charged with wiping out an entire Mesa, Arizona, family, three adults, two children. William Miller, prime suspect in the Arizona slayings, but authorities say Miller did not act alone, leaving one or more accomplices still on the loose. Miller currently in solitary confinement, Mesa County jail.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A raven-haired beauty, 24-year-old Imette St. Guillen, last seen alive at a local bar minding her own business. As it turns out, today, according to CNN sources, a secret grand jury has handed down felony charges against the bouncer at that bar. He was a convicted felon at the time, Darryl Littlejohn.
Let's take a look at the possible charges. Tonight, that indictment remains sealed. Elizabeth, can you put those charges back up, please? Of course,, we're looking at a murder one charge. That is, of course, premeditated murder, intent to kill. Murder two would be a felony murder charge, basically, if a death occurs during the commission of a felony crime, such as rape, sodomy or kidnapping. The other possible charges would be a charge of kidnapping, a charge of rape, a possible charge of sodomy. All of these charges have stiff, stiff sentences, including life behind bars.
Straight to Paul Batista, veteran defense attorney. At this juncture, at the grand jury, does the defense have any right to be heard?
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Only through the press, and only tomorrow, when the indictment is unsealed, Nancy, and Littlejohn is arraigned, and his lawyer will stand up and say, Not guilty. Littlejohn has already talked much too much, and whoever his lawyer is tomorrow should keep his mouth shut.
GRACE: He was looking pretty dapper there behind bars. I'm sure a jury will appreciate that when they see it in a couple of months. Let's talk about the possible charges. Alex Sanchez, what's the penalty in the state of New York for premeditated murder?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He's facing mandatory life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, so he has some very serious challenges ahead of him. And regarding your issue, what is he going to say tomorrow, I mean, what is there to say at this juncture? It's very early in the proceedings for the defense, and the only thing his lawyer and he should be doing is just remain quiet and begin collecting information-- the police reports, the medical reports, the scientific reports that have been, you know, processed in connection with this case. That's how you prepare a case, not going on TV and simply screaming that, you know, My client's innocent. That does absolutely nothing, at this stage.
GRACE: Now, why is it the defense is not heard at the grand jury proceeding, Alex Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: Well, the defense can go before-- the defendant had a right to go before the grand jury and--
GRACE: If he wanted to be cross-examined.
SANCHEZ: Yes, he could, if he wanted to, and explain that somehow he didn't do it. But obviously, his lawyer told him, Don't do it.
GRACE: So there's no possibility of the death penalty in the state of New York.
SANCHEZ: There is a possibility of the death penalty, but you know what--
GRACE: Oh, really? You know what?
SANCHEZ: The death penalty--
GRACE: Right now, it's up on appeal.
SANCHEZ: Yes, the death penalty--
GRACE: It has been ruled unconstitutional.
SANCHEZ: It's been challenged on so many different levels that for all intents and purposes, the maximum that he's facing--
GRACE: You know, Alex--
SANCHEZ: --is life imprisonment without parole.
SANCHEZ: Alex, please don't mislead the viewers. The last time the death penalty was used in the state of New York was 1965. It has currently been ruled unconstitutional. THat's on appeal. But as it stands right now, there is no DP in the state of New York. So kidnapping a young girl, defenseless woman, no weapon, nothing-- she didn't start a fight at a bar - - wrapping her up in masking tape, raping, sodomizing, murdering, and then throwing her beside the interstate, to be found like a piece of trash, you get life. When do you get parole in New York on life?
SANCHEZ: You know, this is really one of the most horrific crimes in recent memories. ANd this fellow--
GRACE: Just give me a number, Alex. When is he up for parole.
SANCHEZ: He is never getting parole.
GRACE: OK.
SANCHEZ: He will sit in jail--
GRACE: We'll take that up.
SANCHEZ: --until he's 100, if he lives that long.
GRACE: We'll pick that up in just a moment.
Quick break. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN O'DONNELL, LITTLEJOHN'S ATTORNEY: He's the easy target. He's the one with the long criminal history. But he was just working that night. He's trying to clean up his life. He's trying to do the right thing. And you know, unfortunately, he's in the wrong place at the wrong time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The wrong place at the wrong time. That was the defense attorney. We tried to reach him today, Mr. O'Donnell. He would not return calls. Gee, I wonder why? He probably found out his client was giving interviews to TV strations behind bars!
Very quickly, to our own Clark Goldband. Clark, explain to me a possible jurisdictional problem.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, there could be a possible problem because there is a trail throughout all of New York City, as you can see. The case first starts off in Manhattan, where Imette was last seen exiting The Falls. So we don't know where the rape took place--
GRACE: Show me that. Go-- go (INAUDIBLE)
GOLDBAND: As you can see over here, this is where--
GRACE: OK, yeah. All right.
GOLDBAND: --Imette was last seen, at The Falls. What we don't know is where the rape took place. It could have taken place at The Falls, or it could have taken place down here, where the body was found, out in Brooklyn.
GRACE: Or anywhere in between.
GOLDBAND: Exactly. So that--
GRACE: OK.
GOLDBAND: --could be the question in terms of a jurisdictional problem.
GRACE: Or what about the home?
GOLDBAND: Well, the home of Darryl right here-- Littlejohn's home is in Queens.
GRACE: You're on a first-name basis?
GOLDBAND: No, Darryl Littlejohn.
GRACE: Go ahead.
GOLDBAND: So we're talking about three buroughs here. Manhattan, she was last seen, the body was found in Brooklyn, and his home is in Queens. Queens is pretty much ruled out. We just need to know, Did the rape take place in Manhattan or did it take place at the grave in Brooklyn?
GRACE: And back to Alex Sanchez. The reality is, a murder case can be prosecuted where the prosecution believes the murder took place or where the body was disposed.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GRACE: But a rape is not subjected to that same rule. You've got to pin down the jurisdiction, Alex.
SANCHEZ: Yeah, but you know, is it really that important? They found-- unfortunately, they found this dead girl in Brooklyn, and that's where they're going to prosecute the case. She was found, she was bound, she was tortured, et cetera, and that's--
GRACE: They may have to lose the rape charge.
SANCHEZ: --where they're going to prosecute the case. Yeah, they may not- - well, I think they're going to prosecute the rape charge. Since they don't know where the rape had taken place, and they know that she was raped, therefore, Brooklyn would have the opportunity to prosecute for the rape.
GRACE: Even though they can't prove subject matter jurisdiction?
SANCHEZ: Even though they cannot prove-- without-- beyond a preponderance of evidence exactly where that rape had taken place--
GRACE: They've got to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
SANCHEZ: But they know that--
GRACE: Every element of the crime.
SANCHEZ: Right, but they know that she was raped, right? And they know that her body was found in Brooklyn. That confers jurisdiction over those particular crimes.
GRACE: Even on the rape charge?
SANCHEZ: Even on the rape charge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is evidence, telephone evidence, telephone records that put the telephone that Mr. Littlejohn had in his possession in the vicinity, the immediate vicinity of where the body was located and also a route to that location. There are witnesses that put the victim in the company of Mr. Littlejohn when she left the bar that evening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Thank you for being with us.
Tonight, our sources have confirmed that we believe an indictment has been formally handed down by a secret grand jury in the case of 24-year-old Imette St. Guillen, the young New York graduate student that was last seen alive at a local Soho bar minding her own business. She left that evening, never to be seen alive again.
The suspect: the bouncer. He was a convicted felon working there at the bar, last seen with St. Guillen. And he was kind enough to give a few sound bites today from behind bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARRYL LITTLEJOHN, PERSON OF INTEREST IN ST. GUILLEN CASE: I'm a likely suspect because I have a criminal background and I wasn't supposed to be there working.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When police were questioning you, did you volunteer to give your DNA?
LITTLEJOHN: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you gave it?
LITTLEJOHN: Yes. There was never a question about me consenting to give my DNA. When they first approached me at the Falls, I provided them with my real name, my real address, Social Security number, birth date, so on, so forth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, I'm calling BS, a foul on that one. Police already had your DNA, guy, all right? So don't tell me what a great guy you are because you gave them DNA. They already had it, and I can only imagine why police had your DNA. They don't have mine, not that I know of anyway.
That was Darryl Littlejohn, and that is courtesy of WCBS, an exclusive interview they got from him behind bars. That indictment, we believe, handed down today by a secret grand jury.
To Dr. Jonathan Arden, very quickly, Dr. Arden, we have been going round and round and round about the jurisdictional issue regarding the rape. Now, with a murder case, Dr. Arden, as you well know from testifying in court, a murder prosecution can go down where the body is found or where the murder was believed to have taken place; not so with a rape, in many jurisdictions.
How, if there is no sperm in this case, can the state show a rape occurred?
JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You can certainly show the basic element of a sexual assault with sexual injuries, genital injuries, for instance, and of course the totality of the picture, not just the murder, but the abduction, the binding, the other mutilation of her and the entire picture here. I think you can certainly show that a rape has occurred.
I don't think the forensic evidence will tell you where that rape occurred; that will be an issue for the lawyers to battle over. But, of course, you do have -- in New York City, you have five separate jurisdictions that act independently, in terms of prosecution, although not in terms of the police investigation.
But the elements of the sexual assault and the injuries there will probably be easy, if you'll pardon the expression, for the medical examiner to demonstrate, even in the absence of DNA from sperm, for instance.
GRACE: What do you mean it will be easy? How?
ARDEN: Well, unfortunately, I mean, it's pretty gruesome, but rape, per se, does not necessarily leave physical injuries, but in a circumstance like this, there is a much greater likelihood that there will be bruising and tearing of the genitals or of the anus and rectum.
And in that sense, the types of injuries that are much more likely to occur in this kind of rape than perhaps a survived rape will probably be quite graphic, quite gruesome, quite obvious, and the medical examiner will be able to demonstrate them, both describing them and even showing photographs, if necessary, on the stand that, I think, will convict a jury quite easily.
GRACE: Dr. Arden, if this body was wiped down, for instance with baby wipes or some other wipes, some other alcohol cloth, would that show up, as well, under testing?
ARDEN: Depending upon what was in the wipes, there may be something left behind, because the wipe probably has more than just alcohol. It probably has fragrances and it may have other chemicals that are detectable.
GRACE: Can you discern that? Can a medical examiner discern that?
ARDEN: It is possible, if they do swabs of the surface of the body and specifically subject that to chemical testing.
GRACE: Got it.
ARDEN: But more important would be, if there's wiping of the body, then what evidence is being taken away?
GRACE: Exactly.
That's my point, Paul Batista, defense attorney. If the killer has taken pains to wipe the genital area and the body, to me that is circumstantial evidence that the perpetrator was hiding something. And what else would you be hiding in that area of a lady's body?
PAUL BATISTA: I got to agree with you on this one, Nancy. You used a word earlier that...
GRACE: Well, here's a first.
BATISTA: There's a first. BS is a word that never would have occurred to me in connection with this case.
GRACE: Technical legal term. Maybe you don't have that up here in New York.
BATISTA: You know, we have a guy -- he gives up his DNA. The state has a right to his DNA.
GRACE: They already had it. They already had it.
BATISTA: But even if they didn't have it, they had a right to his DNA.
GRACE: But they did. But they did.
BATISTA: And they had it. And he places himself in this interview in her presence moments before she disappeared. BS? Please.
GRACE: Oh, yes. And you forgot this one. I'm sure you and Alex would love this, if you were on the case. "Oh, they just blame me because I'm a convicted felon." Wait until the jury hears that.
BATISTA: That will be great...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: It's going to be tough for the defense to keep that out. You know, an in-custody statement given to journalists, the Constitution doesn't protect you from bragging to journalists. You know, cops are a different story.
Let's go straight back to Clark Goldband. Let's talk about the tale of the tape between the lawyers.
GOLDBAND: It should be quite the fight. You have Ken Taub taking on Kevin O'Donnell. And, Nancy, let's get ready for this match-up by examining the record.
Ken Taub graduated from St. John's Law School 1980. Compare that with Fordham Law...
GRACE: Anybody on law review that we know of?
GOLDBAND: I'm sorry?
GRACE: Was anybody on law review?
GOLDBAND: I do not know the answer to that.
GRACE: Believe me; they'd have it posted on the Internet. Go ahead.
GOLDBAND: OK, Nancy. Well, let's move down here. Taub tried his first homicide case, 1985. Now, it wasn't until a decade later that O'Donnell was even admitted into the New York bar. So you have a gap of 10 years of experience.
Taub the homicide chief in Brooklyn, 1995. As you know, that's no small post, Nancy. While in 2001, attorney Kevin O'Donnell, he represented Jaru Carter (ph), a man who he said was young, dumb and under the influence of older people; needless to say, that was pleaded out.
GRACE: Well, hold on.
You know, Alex Sanchez, what is the glory and the majesty of pleading guilty to something? That's not even a jury trial.
SANCHEZ: I'm not sure exactly what you mean...
GRACE: We're talking about comparing the lawyers, defense vs. prosecution.
SANCHEZ: Right. You know something? The prosecution in this case, not only is represented by himself, which seems to be a very experienced attorney, he's got a slew of investigators, forensic people, medical doctors. He has a whole army of people right behind him.
And I wonder whether or not O'Donnell has the same army of people behind him prepared to defend the defendant in this case. Generally speaking, the prosecutors have a lot more resources than the defense.
GRACE: Hold on. Have you ever heard of the public pocket, the taxpayer? All the defense has to do is petition the judge for an investigator, for experts, for their own medical examiner...
SAMMON: Yes.
GRACE: ... and we, you and I, foot the bill.
Ellie, isn't the defense attorney with the public defenders or the...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a public aid lawyer, is what our understanding was.
GRACE: OK, public aid lawyer.
Another question, back to Nancie Katz. Nancie, when will the indictment be unsealed so we can see all the charges?
NANCIE KATZ, COURTS REPORTER, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": The Brooklyn Supreme Court, on 320 J Street in Brooklyn, District Attorney Hynes is going to hold a news conference, possibly with the police commissioner, tomorrow before it to announce that the indictment has been filed, but it cannot be unsealed until it is in front of a judge, and the judge presiding over that case will be Supreme Court Justice Cheryl Chambers (ph).
GRACE: Back to Nancie Katz, court reporter with "New York Daily News," who will prosecute the case? Will the same person who presented it to the grand jury take it to a petit jury or a jury of 12?
KATZ: I believe so. I think that Mr. Taub was tabbed for that task because he's had some experience in difficult cases. He is the homicide chief, and I believe that he will continue working on the case, because he's done all the, you know, the background work to bring it to the grand jury.
GRACE: OK.
To investigative reporter Pat Lalama, are police still looking at Littlejohn in a string of unrelated rapes?
LALAMA: You bet their life they are! Now, let's just make it clear: He is only being referred to as a "person of interest" in those matters. And, in fact, some of the women who initially thought he may have been the perpetrator in their particular cases weren't able to identify him in a lineup.
But what's particularly interesting is one rape, where there are a lot of really eerie similarities, Nancy. The van, her being tied up with some sort of a packaging tape, being dumped on the side of the road. And so the cops got their eyes open, and let's hope if, in fact, he is the person, whoever it is, they get him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darryl Littlejohn's blood was found on plastic ties that were used to bind Imette's hands behind her back. And a DNA match to Littlejohn was made. As a result of this and other evidence, Littlejohn is the prime suspect in this case and his indictment will be sought for the murder of Imette St. Guillen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have, right now, got a massive search going on for Quadrevion Henning and Purvis Parker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm trying to be strong, and I'm trying to prepare my family for the worst, but I've got to be upbeat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I would like to ask the citizens of the city of Milwaukee or nationwide, if anyone has seen these boys, knows where they are, please give us a call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we ask you, as well, please help us bring these two little boys home. They look like two little angel, Purvis Parker, Quadrevion "Dre" Henning, ages 11 and 12, last seen Sunday, March 19, 3:30 in the afternoon at a little area where they lived playing basketball.
They reported back to the granddad around 3:30, saying, "Can we play some more? Can we play some more?" They said yes; they were never seen again.
Could they still be alive? Straight to Jonathan Freed, CNN correspondent. He's been to both of these young boys' homes, seen their bedrooms, seen their home, talked to both families.
Jonathan, any good news?
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Unfortunately, Nancy -- and good evening -- we do not have good news at this point. Sometimes no news is good news, but we are talking about the fourth night since these two boys have disappeared, and the families are trying to hold out hope, but, with each passing day, it's becoming increasingly difficult for them.
And, Nancy, what is so chilling about this case, for those of us who are covering it, you encapsulated everything already. There was really not much more to it than that, as far as we know at this point.
Sunday afternoon, two kids, friends since last year, said that they wanted to go a couple blocks away to a schoolyard, play some ball. That's the last time their family saw them. And that's it, Nancy; they just disappeared.
GRACE: Here is what police have to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have, right now, got a massive search going on for Quadrevion Henning and Purvis Parker. These two young boys, as you well know, have been missing since Sunday. We are doing a massive search, and there are a lot of law enforcement agencies that have gathered with us in this endeavor.
We have no substantial leads, nor do we have -- nor have we had any evidence that there has been a crime committed. We have two missing boys, and that's what we have right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: One of our producers plugged in the home addresses of these young boys and the place where they were playing basketball. Put it up, Liz, if you don't mind. These are the numbers of convicted sex offenders in that area.
Straight back to Jonathan Freed, CNN correspondent. Jonathan, what do we know? Give me the time line.
FREED: Well, it was around 3:00 in the afternoon on Sunday when the two boys, who very often play together, they had finished their homework, in one case, and were asking if they could go out and play again, and the family kind of looked outside. It was, you know, not really quite dark yet, and they said, "OK, fine, but don't be too long. Come back before dark, the way you usually do." They went off. It's the last time anybody saw them.
And earlier, Nancy, you pointed out, and you're right. I had a chance to spend some time in both of these boys' homes today, meeting with their families. These are two families that are completely distraught. They're holding it together as best they can.
They're saying that they're feeding off the energy of everybody that's trying to help them and kind of taking that in, in way to keep themselves as composed as possible. But as the days go by...
GRACE: Right.
FREED: ... it's just becoming increasingly difficult for them to do that.
GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, Lauren, I remember when we could just ride our bikes for hours after school and everything would be OK.
HOWARD: It's incredible. I mean, children can no longer go outside. They can't even go explore in the neighborhood with their friends and somehow feel safe.
GRACE: From the Milwaukee police department, spokesperson Annie Schwartz is with us. Thank you for being us with. What can you tell us about the search for these two little boys?
I mean, Liz, there you go, keep their faces up, Elizabeth. Thank you, friend.
Go ahead, Annie.
ANNE SCHWARTZ, MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Well, thank you, Nancy, you know, for giving us this national forum to be able to talk about this case. The more people that can see the faces of these boys, the more chance we have that somebody may have seen them.
You know, police officers are used to working with clues, Nancy. And I've got to tell you: We don't have any. We don't have any information on them. It is though that they vanished into thin air.
Typically, when we have missing children, and we put a phone number up, and we ask people to call if they've had sighting, usually in the first 24 hours we'll hear something from someone who says we saw him at the convenience store, we saw them here, we saw them there. Not one single call from anyone who has seen them.
It's highly unusual, especially this many days into the search. And we are searching everywhere. There is virtually no stone that we've left unturned. Nancy, we have been in the waterways. We have had divers in the local lagoons. We're going back tomorrow to do some more of that.
We've had a shoulder-to-shoulder search in one of the local forests. We've had aerial searches using with one of our local news helicopters. There's virtually nothing we haven't done.
And when you were talking about those sex offenders, we did consent searches at all of their homes. And we have been there, and we have looked through their homes, and we have no evidence that they had any involvement. We are really -- we are looking for any help from anybody who might have some information.
GRACE: Sherry Friedlander is with A Child is Missing. Sherry, how did you get involved in the search?
SHERRY FRIEDLANDER, A CHILD IS MISSING ORGANIZATION: Well, the Milwaukee police department called us on Tuesday to help with some phone searches. What we do is we phone out to the area where the child was last seen, and we put out about 3,500 calls to the neighbors asking them if they knew anything. And then we expanded our search by telephone about 1:00 in the afternoon to about 7,500 calls.
GRACE: Right.
FRIEDLANDER: So we are, you know, like everyone else, trying to help the Milwaukee police department in their search for these two small children.
GRACE: Take a look at this number, 414-935-7401, $6,000 reward. As we go to break, I want to remind you: Live coverage of a Vermont murder trial tomorrow on Court TV.
And as we go to break, please stay with us as we remember Kasper Allen Camacho Dudkiewicz, 22, of Guam. He loved baseball. He played baseball and football. He was the high school star. His coach said he always gave 100 percent, and he did that for his country. Kasper Allen Camacho Dudkiewicz, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anybody has them, just don't mistreat them. If he never comes back home, just don't mistreat them. Don't mistreat them. You might have taken them for whatever reason, but cherish them; don't make them suffer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He's talking about these two precious angels. They're just 11 and 12. Can you remember -- can you even remember being in the fifth and sixth grade?
These two kids out minding their own business, playing basketball. They weren't at a mall. They weren't up in somebody else's yard. They weren't in cars they weren't supposed to be in. They were right down the street from their home, playing basketball. They have not seen since 3:30 p.m., March 19th.
To Debbie Alt, Purvis' teacher at Elm Creative Arts School, would they run away? Do they have any history of that?
DEBBIE ALT, PURVIS PARKER'S TEACHER: No, there is no history of that, nothing that they've heard of for either one of the boys. Originally, it was reported that it was a possibility, but there is no history. And it would very, very unlike Purvis to do that.
GRACE: What is he like?
ALT: Oh, Purvis is a wonderful child. He's got very good attendance at school. He is well-liked by our staff and students at school. He loves sports, as you said. He was out playing basketball. He loves football. He's got a big, beautiful smile. We really miss him.
GRACE: Elizabeth, can you please show the pictures one more time?
Won't you help bring these boys home? They cannot help themselves. They're only 11 and 12, Purvis Parker, Dre Henning.
Thank you to all of my guests tonight, but our biggest thank you to you, for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes, and for caring about our legal stories, our missing people.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I'm Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I'll see you right here, 8:00 sharp Eastern, tomorrow night. Good night, friend.
END
