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Tennessee Pastor Shot by Wife; Enron Trial Update
Aired March 24, 2006 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Selmer, Tennessee, a well-respected, a highly popular Tennessee minister found gunned down in his own bedroom. And tonight, his wife, a substitute teacher, a mother of three, charged with murder one, the wife and three daughters apprehended near the Alabama state line. Police say she confessed. What is her motive for murder?
And tonight, Enron greed reaches new heights. Top Enron execs take a spanking from Lady Justice in open court.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us this Friday night. Tonight, it is one of the seven deadly sins, all right -- greed. The excess of corporate America at its very worst plays out tonight in a Houston courtroom. Disgusting! Prosecutors say Enron fat cats robbed the nation blind and then left California in the dark during rolling black-outs.
But first tonight, breaking news, stunning developments in the shooting death of a highly popular Tennessee church minister. And tonight, his wife under arrest on murder one. A panel of experts, lawyers, reporters here with me to take your calls live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER RICKMAN, SELMER POLICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATOR: March 22, 2006, the body of Matthew Winkle was found in his home in Selmer, Tennessee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been such a total shock. They were the perfect family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler has confessed to the murder of her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just doesn`t seem to add up. In my heart, I just can`t believe this is happening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation is still in the preliminary stages, and there`s a lot of information that we can`t release right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was, you would think, the perfect mother, the perfect wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I doubt that there`s anybody in the community that can fathom what happened. When it happens to you, it comes as a total shock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No one ever expects murder one in their neighborhood, in their family, in their world, but especially from a preacher`s wife. Straight out to reporter with WREC radio, Liz Daulton. Liz, what the hey`s going on?
LIZ DAULTON, WREC RADIO: That`s a good question. Pretty much, she is being en route back to Selmer right now from Alabama. She has confessed. She`s under first degree murder charges. And it`s come to the conclusion that authorities may know a motive, but they`re not releasing anything yet because the investigation is still ongoing.
GRACE: They know a motive. That says to me -- to Jennifer Johnson, the public information officer with the TBI, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation -- that she has been speaking freely with police. Is that true, Jennifer Johnson?
JENNIFER JOHNSON, PIO, TENNESSEE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: She has been very cooperative from the very beginning. Ironically, we were about a half hour away from the 24-hour mark, and that`s when they found her down in Alabama. They went to the van, and she was very forthcoming with them.
GRACE: You told me last night -- actually, this story broke live last night with Jennifer Johnson with us on air. You told us that she was alone with the children. In my mind, that meant no one had taken her, absconded from the home with her. I understand that tonight, the three little girls are in good shape?
JOHNSON: They are in good shape, and some positive developments in that respect. There was a hearing in juvenile court in Alabama today, and she did sign over custody, at least temporarily, to Matthew`s father. So they are in good hands tonight. I`m not sure how that`s going to play out long term, but they are in the home of, you know, loving relatives, and I think that`s important to a lot of people.
GRACE: Question to you, Jennifer. There`s been a lot of speculation. I understand that authorities are saying the children didn`t see their father shot dead. My question is, were they in the home when he was shot?
JOHNSON: One of our supervisors did confirm that, earlier, they were in the home. You know, these kids have been through a lot, and I think it`s important for us to just not really delve into these details, you know, and let it play out in court. They`ve been through an amazing ordeal over the last 48 hours, maybe more now.
GRACE: You know what? That`s all well and good, Jennifer Johnson. I appreciate your comment. I know you`re trying to protect the case and the future prosecution. But I`m trying to find out what happened. To Liz Daulton. Were the children in the home at the time of the shooting?
JOHNSON: Well, I understand the insatiable need for the public to find out what happened, but we`re going to...
GRACE: Wa -- wa -- wa -- that was...
JOHNSON: ... have to stick to our guns. We`re going to have to...
GRACE: ... to Liz Daulton.
JOHNSON: ... stick to our guns.
GRACE: Thanks, Jennifer. Liz Daulton, were they in the home at the time of the shooting?
DAULTON: We have confirmed reports that the daughters were in the house at the time of the crime. We do not have any idea of whether they actually witnessed the crime.
GRACE: Interesting. Back to Jennifer Johnson. I know that the wife, now a suspect, Mary Winkler, had rented a condo. When was the condo rented and where?
JOHNSON: Again, we`re not going to be able to get into those details. We have confirmed that there was a motel room that she stayed in, but we`re not going to be able to retrace this on the air tonight.
GRACE: OK. Liz, do you know where the condo was?
DAULTON: We know that she was picked up in Ocean Beach, and they said there was either a hotel room or condo of some sort that was rented but never moved into.
GRACE: Do we know when she rented it?
DAULTON: I heard confirmed reports of a week, but then it changed a little bit after that.
GRACE: Here is what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER RICKMAN, SELMER POLICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATOR: On March 22, 2006, the body of Matthew Winkler was found in his home in Selmer, Tennessee. Mr. Winkler had been shot on March the 23rd, 2006. The deceased`s wife, Mary Carol Winkler, was apprehended by law enforcement officers in Ocean Beach, Alabama. According to agents of the Alabama Bureau of Investigation, Mary Winkler has confessed to the murder of her husband, Matthew Winkler, shooting him on March the 22nd, 2006, and leaving Selmer with her three daughters.
Warrants have been faxed down to the TBI and the West Enslee (ph) Drug Task Force and Violent Crimes, who are down there right now.
Once the waiver of extradition is complete, she will be brought back by the McNairy County sheriff`s office, and I anticipate that to happen sometime this weekend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to the public information officer with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, Jennifer Johnson, so kindly with us tonight. Jennifer, where is she at this moment?
JOHNSON: McNairy County, as you heard, is in charge of that transport. We have no involvement in that, so they`ll have to be the ones to answer that question. It`s my understanding over the weekend, she`ll be back here.
GRACE: I`m asking you where is she tonight? Is that where she is...
JOHNSON: Well, that`s what I`m saying. You know, McNairy County is transporting her, so I can`t say if they`re doing it overnight. I don`t know what their plans are exactly.
GRACE: What happens when Mary Winkler arrives in Tennessee?
JOHNSON: Well, she`ll go to the McNairy County jail. That`s why they`re in charge of bringing her back. She`ll stay there, and we anticipate her to have a hearing early next week, maybe even Monday.
GRACE: Here is what the victim`s father had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN WINKLER, MURDERED MINISTER`S FATHER: We want to express to the Lord our deep appreciation for allowing us the privilege of serving as Matthew`s parents. We were blessed with raising three wonderful sons.
To all of our families and friends, thank you for your love, your support and your prayers. Your prayers were answered, your support was so helpful, and your love means as much to us as life itself.
Now we turn our immediate attention to the remembrance of our son, Matthew, and the care of three precious children. We ask that all of you realize the challenge of the task before us and honor our privacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Three little girls left without a father, Patricia 8, Mary Alice 6, Breanna 1.
To Jennifer Johnson. How was Matthew Winkler killed, Minister Winkler?
JOHNSON: He was shot. He was found in his bedroom by, as you may have heard on this show even, parishioners who went to the home, knocked on the door. He wasn`t there. They opened it and found him dead in his bedroom.
GRACE: Age 31, correct?
GRACE: Jennifer, where was the wound?
JOHNSON: We`re not going to get into that much specific detail. I know -- I feel like I keep saying that, and...
GRACE: No, I completely -- no, you don`t at all, Jennifer. I don`t want to jeopardize the investigation or a future trial...
GRACE: ... from a TBI agent speaking out. But I can ask a journalist. What she says will not jeopardize the investigation or cause a change of venue in any way. Liz, do we know where the wound was? Our sources tell us it was in the minister`s back.
DAULTON: I have heard sources say that it was in the back. We haven`t heard anything`s confirmed yet, and again, we wouldn`t want to jeopardize the investigation in any way, as well, without confirmed reports.
GRACE: But your sources say that, as well. Do you know how many gunshots wounds there were?
DAULTON: We haven`t heard anything on a number.
GRACE: To Eleanor Dixon, veteran prosecutor of homicide cases. There goes the self-defense case right there. Why?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, he`s shot in the back, so that indicates, obviously, he`s running away, he`s trying to get away. There`s probably no threat to the wife. Of course, she might claim, Yes, he was threatening me. I pulled out a gun and then he ran. But at any rate, when you see a gunshot wound to the back, that shows the victim is trying to get away.
GRACE: And to Allison Gilman (ph), defense attorney. What do you advise at this juncture? Your client has already spoken to police. Apparently, she has given a motive. Police are keeping it secret tonight. She`s on her way back for extradition.
ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not really giving too much credit to anything she may have said to the police. The emotional state that she must be in, Nancy, and what those police must have said to her in order to get her to speak -- I mean, I`m hearing the words, God will listen to you, God will believe you, so speak out to us. So anything she may have said...
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey! Hold, hold, hold your horses! There`s nothing wrong with that. That`s not unconstitutional, to invoke the name of God!
GILMAN: Oh, Nancy, but look at the woman...
GRACE: No, no!~ No, no! No, no!
GRACE: No! Answer the question! That is not unconstitutional, and that is not grounds -- hey, let`s take a little refresher course tonight. It`s Trial 101, motion to suppress. Just because police may or may not invoke God, Christ, any type of religious icon, that is not a grounds for suppression, Allison. Are you suggesting it is?
GILMAN: I am not suggesting it is, but I`m suggesting that I think a judge would look at the emotional state that this woman was in when she spoke to them. And I don`t think they`re talking to her about lawyers or that she has a right to speak to one. They`re talking to her right now about God and what God what want her to do...
GRACE: Do you have any...
GILMAN: ... and God will forgive her.
GRACE: Allison, do you have any evidence to support what you`re saying, or are you just guessing?
GILMAN: Look at the facts, Nancy! Look at the facts!
GRACE: No, question. Yes, no, have you read that? Has a source told you police have gotten her to speak through use of her religion?
GILMAN: No, Nancy, but this...
GRACE: OK. But what?
GILMAN: But 15 years of being a criminal defense attorney is going to tell me what the police force are going to do in a situation like this, where you have no witnesses, you`ve got a guy that`s dead, and you have a pastor`s wife that`s driving along with three healthy kids. They need a statement from her. They got nothing else, so they`re going to use everything they can to get this woman to talk, and she`s going to talk because she`s an emotional wreck!
GRACE: Why shouldn`t they get a statement? Maybe I missed something. Of course, they want a statement. They want to know who killed this minister.
What about it, Sam Cammack? What`s your defense? Agree with Allison?
SAM CAMMACK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll tell you what. In part, I agree with Allison. I think that the police officers are going to do whatever they can to get a statement out of her, at this point in time, because she is vulnerable after this had happened and she`s in an emotional state where she basically would probably volunteer some information that she wouldn`t volunteer normally, if she had already spoken with a lawyer. So she may have already given up some valuable rights that she`s due.
So I agree with her in part, but don`t know what the police are saying at this time. I don`t have a crystal ball, but I do believe that they`re taking...
GRACE: Well, none of us...
CAMMACK: ... every opportunity they can.
GRACE: ... have a crystal ball, Sam. I appreciate the reference to clairvoyance tonight, but when you come down to the hard issue of suppressing a statement -- and as Allison has pointed out, unless they`ve got some ballistics, that`s what they`ve as their case right now -- if that statement is suppressed, there`s got to be grounds to suppress it...
CAMMACK: Well, one of the grounds...
GRACE: ... such as she wasn`t give her Miranda rights. She was coerced. She was beaten. And that`s very tough to prove.
CAMMACK: Well, no, I agree with you, Nancy. I think, at least with regards to the suppression issue, we`re going to have to determine whether or not that these statements were coerced. And that`s probably going to be one of the main issues. How long did they actually examine this lady...
GRACE: You know what? You know what, Sam? I bet you dollars to donuts she said it before she even got out of the van.
CAMMACK: It`s possible.
GRACE: To psychologist Dr. Keith Ablow (ph). Keith, let`s talk a moment about the defense of post-partum depression. We may see some allegations of battered woman`s syndrome. What do you think?
DR. KEITH ABLOW, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, without knowing the facts, it`s hard to say. But I can tell you that we don`t also know whether none of these things apply. So there are women who do become paranoid, psychotic. I`ve treated women who come to believe that loved ones of theirs have been replaced by masquerading doubles, and that only by killing the double could you restore your loved one. So the mental state is an open question.
Her planning does not obviate, does not make it impossible that she was still laboring under a mental illness. Some very, very, very, very sick people can do methodical things for delusional reasons. But so far, we don`t know that that`s the case.
GRACE: Back to the reporter with WREC radio, Liz Daulton. She`s been on the case from the get-go. Liz, have police alluded to what the motive for murder is?
DAULTON: We have heard that authorities do know a motive. They are keeping it confidential because the investigation is ongoing. We have heard that the police do not believe that the motive was infidelity, which is kind of an odd term, and that there was no comment on whether Mary had accused her husband of abuse.
GRACE: Well, is there any indication of financial trouble or post- partum depression? I mean, Liz, it`s always -- in this country, the rate of domestic homicide has skyrocketed. It`s an epidemic. However, it`s usually the reverse, the husband killing the wife. This is very much not as common as husband killing wife. This is much more unusual.
Is there any sign of post-partum depression? One of the children was only about 1 years old.
DAULTON: We have asked if there were any previous history of problems. There were none of any sort, not in this town or the town where they had been living previously.
GRACE: And what about the murder weapon? Has it been recovered, Liz Daulton?
DAULTON: We heard that the weapon has been found. No comments on what it was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We have just heard the girls and the mom have been found.
JOHNSON: Nancy, literally, as I was sitting here waiting to go on the show, we just got the phone call that they have been found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Carol Winkler was apprehended by law enforcement officers in Ocean Beach, Alabama.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is she a suspect or is she a victim?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler has confessed to the murder of her husband, Matthew Winkler. To my knowledge, the children saw nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The mystery seems to intensify surrounding the death of a 31- year-old highly popular minister at the Church of Christ, Selmer, Tennessee. His wife and three daughters apprehended in the family van near the Alabama state line. Apparently, she is in custody. Murder one charges filed by police. The three little girls are in the custody of Reverend Winkler`s parents. She is on her way back. She did not fight extradition.
Let`s find out what we can. Let`s go to managing editor of "Marriage Partnerships," Ginger Kolbaba. Ginger, thank you for being with us. The stress on ministers` wives is incredible.
GINGER KOLBABA, MANAGING EDITOR, "MARRIAGE AND PARTNERSHIPS": Oh, it really is. You know, there are some studies out that show up to 80 percent of pastors` wives feel left out and unappreciated by church members. They are living in this glass house, where everybody watches what you do, what you say. And church members and community members, you know, they focus on every little thing, and it`s really sort of like living with the paparazzi, in some ways. And I don`t think church members mean to do this, but subconsciously, it`s just part of that expectation that a pastor and his family are the spiritual leaders, therefore, they are somehow more directly connected to God, which means they`re perfect.
GRACE: And Ginger, I was stunned to learn that the of divorce rates amongst ministers is about 50 percent?
KOLBABA: It`s very high, and it`s -- you know, so much of it has to just do with the stress from outside sources that are attacking a couple.
GRACE: Right. Now joining me by phone is Pam Killingsworth. She is the assistant principal at Selmer elementary school, a member of Winkler`s church. Mrs. Killingsworth, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us about Mary Winkler?
PAM KILLINGSWORTH, ASST. PRINCIPAL/CHURCH MEMBER: Well, she was -- to me, she was a sweet, caring, loving mother and wife. This is just so -- this is a total shock and so out of character for the Mary that we all knew.
GRACE: Tell me about her. Did she come in and substitute teach regularly?
KILLINGSWORTH: Well, actually, she had just been approved to substitute teach. Tuesday of this week was her first day to really be a substitute teacher. She had done a lot of parent volunteering and helping with carnivals and different things at school.
GRACE: So Tuesday was her first day there as a substitute teacher, and this occurred on Wednesday?
GRACE: What was the family like? Is there any possibility she was suffering from post-partum depression?
KILLINGSWORTH: I did not see any of that. I did not see any -- anything like that at all. She was very -- just very nice and -- and helpful. She worked in the church, as well as at the school when she could. She had started back to college and was working on finishing up a teaching degree.
GRACE: Did they have any financial problems?
KILLINGSWORTH: Not to my knowledge.
GRACE: With me is Pam Killingsworth, the assistant principal at the elementary school where Mary Winkler had just started working. We here at the show, like everyone else, trying to make sense out of the murder of a highly popular minister, just 31 years old, leaving behind these three beautiful girls without a father. The mom in custody tonight.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracker." Everybody, stay us with. We`ll be right back. There is breaking news out of a Vermont courtroom. a jury finds 73-year-old Hope Schreiner guilty of murder two in the death of her husband, 78-year-old Robert Schreiner. The prosecution said Schreiner had a lover and just got plain tired of taking care of her husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As to the charge of first degree murder, what is your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And as to the charge of second degree murder, what is your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First degree murder is premeditated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she premeditated this, in your -- in the opinion of law enforcement here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not the charge. The charge is first degree murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Mary Winkler, age 32, on her way back, waiving extradition to face charges she gunned down her husband, a minister in the Church of Christ, Selmer, Tennessee, the three little girls now in the custody of the paternal grandparents.
Let`s straight to a high-profile criminal profiler. Joining us tonight, you know her well, Pat Brown. Pat, listen we know about murder out on the streets, dope killings, revenge killings, anger killings. Profile this, please.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Sure, Nancy. I think when you`ve got a situation between two people, what you`ve got is an issue the world the person is living in. If you love the world you`re living in and somebody destroys it, for example, by committing infidelity or by molesting your children or maybe economic ruin, you might strike out in anger either at them or at yourself, maybe even a murder-suicide.
Or you might hate your world that you`re living in. You`re trapped in it, that this is not turning out the way you wanted. You`re bored with your marriage, or you`re being abused in your marriage, something wrong inside, and you strike out to get rid of that pain that`s causing you to be in that situation.
GRACE: To Liz Daulton at WREC radio. The gun, I want to find out about the gun. Did the gun, according to your sources, come from the home, or is this a gun she had to plan to go out and purchase and bring back?
DAULTON: We just have reports that say a weapon has been found. There are no reports on a detail of what exactly it is, whether there was a gun in the home.
GRACE: Had it been hidden?
DAULTON: There was no report on where it was found.
GRACE: Jennifer Johnson with Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, can you tell us anything about the weapon, Jennifer?
JOHNSON: No, I really can`t. I can tell you that we executed a search warrant on the van, and there were items taken out of that. Just really can`t get into the gun, where it came from or anything of that nature.
GRACE: Was a search done on the home?
JOHNSON: I`m sorry?
GRACE: Was a search...
GRACE: ... taken from the home?
JOHNSON: The night of -- the night that his body was found, on Wednesday night, we had a forensic crime scene team that went in the home, searched for evidence there, and did retrieve some items from the home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler has confessed to the murder of her husband, Matthew Winkler, shooting him on March 22, 2006, leaving Selmer with their three daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was, you would think, the perfect mother, the perfect wife. She brought her children to school every day. She volunteered in the school. Words can`t describe the two different personalities we`re seeing here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Seemingly one of the mildest members of her church there in Selmer, Tennessee, the Church of Christ, Mary Winkler now facing charges of murder one in the shooting death of her husband -- there you see him -- Minister Matthew Winkler, just 31. Their three girls, ages eight, six and one, now without a father.
Let`s go to Phil Rosenbaum, of our staff, one of our producers, how did they end up in Selmer?
PHIL ROSENBAUM, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, each Church of Christ is self-governing. And they moved to Selmer after an interview with the elders of the church, three in this case. They really liked Matthew Winkler, and they hired him. They`re very autonomous churches, so they make decisions on their own.
GRACE: And what can you tell me about the church?
ROSENBAUM: Well, the church has no central headquarters and it follows a literal interpretation of the Bible, the New Testament. That governs the church. The elders implement those rules.
GRACE: And what about women`s position in the church?
ROSENBAUM: Well, women`s position in a church is also governed by the Bible. For instance, women can`t be ministers of the church, because, in the Bible, it says women must remain silent during prayer.
GRACE: Well, let`s just be glad that Mary spoke out when she first saw Christ coming back or no one would never have known. At least they could speak out then.
But on another note, let`s get back to the law. Quickly, Clark Goldband, you have researched the law there in Tennessee. If there is a conviction in this case, what`s the possible penalty?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET BLOGGER: She could be sentenced to death, Nancy. We did some interesting research in her home state of Tennessee. There`s only been one execution in Tennessee since the death penalty was reinstated in the `70s, and that was Robert Glen Coe.
He convicted of rape and murder, but, Nancy, get this: It happened in 1979. He wasn`t executed until the year 2000. So 20-plus years for the first execution.
Listen how many inmates are on death row in Tennessee: 106 men, two women. Both of those females are both there for murder. And in the whole country, the United States of America, over 3,000 men and 48 women currently on death row, almost 3,400 in total.
Now, women who kill their husbands, as you know, this is not a new phenomenon. And we have some here to talk about it. First, Pam Smart, we know about that. She received life with a 16-year-old boy. There was a whole angle and twist there.
Clara Harris, 20 years for running over her husband with a Mercedes. She thought her husband was cheating on her. And, as you remember...
GRACE: He was.
GOLDBAND: But her own private eye caught her running him over.
GRACE: Yes, I remember, death by Mercedes.
GOLDBAND: Probably not what she bargained for.
GRACE: Go ahead.
GOLDBAND: And, Nancy, here`s the kicker. Betty Lou Beets, she didn`t kill one husband; she killed both of them.
GRACE: OK, I think I`ve heard just about enough. Let`s go to the phone calls. Let`s go to Judy in South Carolina.
GRACE: What`s your question?
CALLER: Yes, Nancy, I`m just wondering: What`s going on with all these murders? It seems like every night we see another murder of a husband or a wife on television. And I just can`t believe that nobody knew anything about, if there was any problems or anything.
GRACE: You know what, Judy? You are so correct. It`s a tough nut to crack to get relatives and neighbors to speak out about relationships. And I think we`re seeing a lot of protection going on in this case.
But, Judy, I thought, originally, that, as the population grew, the number of homicides, domestic homicides grew commensurately. I disagree with that now. I think you`re right.
I believe that there is an epidemic of domestic homicides, usually husband on wife. You`re right, Judy: an epidemic.
Let`s go to Sherry in Arkansas. Sherry, welcome to the show. What`s your question?
CALLER: Good evening, Nancy. Since the children were in the home when the murder occurred, will there be any charges filed against her, regarding the children?
GRACE: Hmm, good question. Sherry, thinking of additional possible charges.
What about it, Sam?
SAM CAMMACK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t believe there`s a crime there, if the children were inside the home and witnessed...
GRACE: How about endangering the welfare of a child? Hello?
CAMMACK: Well, I mean, we didn`t know where they were positioned. Maybe they were asleep.
GRACE: But she -- Sam, what difference does it make? You locked and loaded and blast with a shotgun and kids in the house, you don`t think that`s endangering the welfare?
CAMMACK: Well, I think we`re missing one entire half of the story, and it`s maybe something we never learned, because it`s the story that comes from the actual person that was allegedly murdered in this case. So we really don`t know.
GRACE: Well, Sam, you know, we would have to have a seance and speak to the other side to get that, but thanks for the legal insight, Sam.
What about it, Allison, charges regarding the children?
ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, no charges regarding the children. I mean, this really was directed at him, if it was directed at all. She didn`t even know that the kids were there. She wasn`t thinking about her children.
And obviously, no harm came to them. She took them with her when she left. They were fine; they were doing well, wherever they were. It has nothing to do with it, Nancy.
GRACE: Hmm, "nothing to do with the children" who are now orphaned without a father and living without a mother, OK. "Nothing to do with the children."
Let`s go to Laurie in Illinois. Laurie, welcome. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
CALLER: I was just wondering: What are the chances that her motive was he was molesting those little girls?
GRACE: You know what, Laurie? There has been wild speculation in this case because, you know, when it`s a man, the first thing you think of, "He`s got a lover. He`s got a girlfriend."
This woman did not have a boyfriend that we know of. There are no signs of physical abuse that have been reported. So everyone is looking for a reason.
That has been bandied about, as well. What would make a mild-mannered lady like Mary Winkler commit murder?
Keith Ablow, it could be something as simple as post-partum depression.
DR. KEITH ABLOW, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, it certainly could be, but we`ve learned our lesson, right? We saw a 73-year-old woman who seems to have had another lover and taken the life of her 78-year-old husband.
People have complicated lives. There`s an inherent desire here that I hear in so many of the experts on your show to express a gender bias, right? But gender equality has come into domestic homicide.
And so, believe me, it`s not that the congregation has bad feelings towards pastor`s wives that led her to murder her husband. I think we have to look at her life and what may have complicated her life.
GRACE: Well, let me just ask you one thing, Keith Ablow. You know, I respect your views as a psychologist, but I simply disagree with you. The rate of murder, husband on wife, are much higher than wife on husband. There is not yet equality in those statistics.
ABLOW: Oh, that`s absolutely the case, absolutely the case. But in an individual case, when there has been a murder, we then have to look at the full spectrum of things that may have happened in each individual`s life.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Keith, it worked for Andrea Yates. She got away with -- how many kids, Ellie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five.
GRACE: Five children drowned to death fighting for their lives; even the baby infant, Mary, was covered in bruises trying to live.
GRACE: They said, "Oh, past-partum depression. Get out of jail free. Post-partum depression."
ABLOW: Post-partum depression is certainly a possibility, right, in this case, right, as it would be in any case in which a woman is violent in the setting of having had a child recently. But keep in mind...
GRACE: How long does it last, Keith, post-partum?
ABLOW: Well, it can last months, perhaps a year, but depression can strike at any time.
GRACE: Well, depression, of course -- depression, of course, it came out...
ABLOW: And with psychotic features. And, you know, these psychotic features can crop up at any time. But we don`t have a story that goes with that. We don`t know that Ms. Winkler was going to get treated for depression, was on anti-psychotic medicine, et cetera.
Even the biases inherent in people saying these kids haven`t been harmed, their dad`s dead. Their mother killed their father. So I think we better start centering ourselves gender-wise.
GRACE: You`re so correct about that.
What about it, Eleanor Dixon, possible charges regarding the children?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think that there are possible charges. Here in Georgia, we have a charge, cruelty to children. And that is if they witness some type of family violence, which this would certainly classify as. It`s causing cruel or excessive physical or mental pain.
And I would argue that here there is excessive mental pain on those children, who perhaps witnessed the death of their father.
GRACE: And, Eleanor, let`s get practical about the possible defense. We can predict what it`s going to be. For post-partum depression to be a defense, it`s got to rise to the level, as Dr. Ablow was saying, to psychosis.
DIXON: Right, it does. And who knows if that will be...
GRACE: Good lord, Eleanor, 80 percent of America is depressed. Half of Manhattan is about to jump out the window.
DIXON: I know. And it seems to be a convenient defense, doesn`t it? I mean, especially with the woman. It`s like, oh, look, post-partum. But again, her baby was one-year-old at this point. Is it really going to last that long? Who knows what`s going through this woman`s mind?
GRACE: Maybe they`ll call Tom Cruise as an expert. You know, he says he can heal it with exercise and diet.
Let`s go to Kelly in Illinois. Hi, Kelly.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
CALLER: I was just wondering, the victim`s family seemed very religious. And I know some religions are viewed to be as a cult. And perhaps her family was viewing that religion as cultish, and she was driven to murder to get out of that cultish situation.
GRACE: Hmm, now, I have never heard of the Church of Christ being "cultish." But I do believe that the religion and the stress of being a pastor -- in this case, a minister`s wife -- will play into it. But I believe the Church of Christ is widely respected across the country. There`s no Jim Jones action going on here.
Quick break, everyone. Please stay with us. Tonight, dog-lovers hot on the tail -- trail -- for a show dog turned stray. Vivi missing a month. She was last seen, JFK airport, after she brought home a prize at Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show.
Numerous sights of the whippet, but searchers are now begging the public, if you see Ms. Vivi, for Pete`s sake, don`t chase her. Vivi runs. Instead, call 917-626-1374. Hey, there is a $5,000 reward.
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CHARLES PRESSWOOD, ENRON RETIREE: I worked for them -- for Enron and the predecessor, it was 33 1/2 years, $1,310,507 dollars and some few cents, which is what, when I retired on October the 1st of 2000, when I was 62 years old, that`s what I had in stock. And about a year later, it was worth $3,600.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: One of many of Enron victims. And here are some of the defendants coming to court.
Oh, are they giving a statement to the press? Pigs at the trough, that`s the arguments the prosecution is making. All little piggies dressed in suits.
Let`s go to CNN correspondent Chris Huntington. He is on the Enron case.
Chris, what happened in court?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, the prosecution has done a very steady and, I would say, good job of telling a very simple story to the jury, through dozens of witnesses that have pretty much sounded the consistent refrain that there was a culture of corruption at Enron, that they fudged the numbers with shell game accounting, and that Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling knew it.
GRACE: I`m sorry, Chris, the defendants are trying to speak over you. OK, Liz, quiet down the defendants and the oinking, please.
Go ahead, Chris.
HUNTINGTON: Well, you know, I would say, frankly, in the courtroom it feels like the pigs are winning, in the -- not that the pigs who are on trial are winning, but the notion that they were pigs is an argument that seems to be holding sway.
The defense is getting some traction, particularly Jeff Skilling`s attorney, Dan Petrocelli, doing a good job of confusing the jury with the fact that there was very complicated accounting at play and not all of it was fraudulent.
And also, probably the best move that he`s made is consistently to get these -- to push back on these government witnesses and show that there is no documentary evidence linking Jeff Skilling to the crime, but it`s tougher for Ken Lay to get out from under this, though.
GRACE: To Russ Alba, corporate and securities attorney, Russ Alba, a lot of focus on something called the Raptors deal, as in dinosaurs. What is it and what`s the significance?
RUSS ALBA, CORPORATE ATTORNEY: Nancy, those Raptor transactions were designed to...
GRACE: It`s like the dinosaur, right, a raptor?
ALBA: Well, that was the name they chose. They really relate to hedging transactions. Enron had undertaken a lot of highly risky positions in a number of deals. And what they did is they attempted to hedge or sell off or share some of that risk.
In an appropriate hedging transaction, you actually sell a portion of your risk, -- part of the deal, if you will -- to an unrelated third party. In the Raptor transactions, Enron was actually using its own money, through Jeffrey Fastow and others, to hedge its own risk.
And therefore, it really wasn`t laying off any of the risk at all. A hundred percent of the risk resided with the company.
And, more importantly, in a proper hedging transaction, that can then be listed as an off-balance sheet transaction, which doesn`t affect the company`s financial statements. In this case, with the obvious intertwining of the use of their own funds, these were actually remained fully -- the company remained fully exposed to 100 percent of the risk.
GRACE: Charles Presswood is a former employee and a victim of the Enron debacle to the tune of his entire savings with Enron over 30 years.
Mr. Presswood, it`s a pleasure to have you with us again. Sir, when you hear these complicated explanations of hedge funds, what it boils down to me is: cooking the books. How much money did you lose because of this?
PRESSWOOD: Ma`am, I lost $1,310,507 and some few cents, you know.
GRACE: Very quickly, let`s go to our caller, Mark in Maryland. What`s your question, Mark?
CALLER: Yes, ma`am. My question is: If Ken Lay and his group are found guilty, where will they serve their time? And how will it differ from a place where, say, I might do time if I were to do some kind of a felonious act?
GRACE: Oh, what an excellent question.
Chris Huntington, if they go down, where will they go?
HUNTINGTON: Well, I can`t answer that with certainty, but I can tell you what`s happened to the only Enron executive who started to serve some jail time, and that`s former treasurer Ben Glisan.
They put him in solitary confinement for a couple of weeks, just to sort of butter him up, and then they put him in with some hard guys to further loosen him up. Now, granted, he was somebody that they wanted it use as a witness later on. No telling how tough they`ll be on Skilling and Lay.
GRACE: Got you.
You know, Mr. Presswood, I guarantee you they`ll go to Club Fed, some minimum-security, cushy prison. What would you say to Ken Lay if you could speak to him, Charles?
PRESSWOOD: Ma`am, I would just like to wonder, what did he think he was doing, you know, when he let all that happen, you know? Where was he at when he could have stopped it?
And it`s real sad, you know, that all of our money got stolen and all, and then anybody that would just outright lie to you, and say, "Be sure to hang onto your stock, because the price will go back up."
GRACE: Right. And the whole time, cooking the books.
PRESSWOOD: In the meantime, he was dumping his by the bucketful, you know.
GRACE: Quick break, everyone. We`ll be right back with Russ Alba, Charles Presswood and Chris Huntington.
Everyone, local news next for some of you, but, remember, live coverage of a multimillion-dollar lawsuit in a Florida police shooting, Court TV, 3:00 to 5:00.
GRACE: Tonight, we remember Army Sergeant Clifton Yazzie, 23, of Farmington, New Mexico, one of four soldiers killed by a roadside bomb. He loved his family deeply and had already received the Purple Heart. Twenty- three-year-old Clifton Yazzie, an American hero.
What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, the people who touched our lives.
GRACE: I`m hearing in my ear from the control room. Let`s go straight out to the L.A. area around Garden Grove to CNN car chase expert Rob Burnson. Rob, what`s going on?
ROB BURNSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, an extraordinary pursuit.
GRACE: Holy moly, did he just sideswipe that guy?
Right when you think you`ve heard it all comes Debra LaFave. A plea deal giving LaFave only house arrest and straight probation.
DEBRA LAFAVE, HAD SEX WITH STUDENT: I want the world to see that bipolar is real, and I challenge you to read a book.
GRACE: I read the book. This can`t possibly be bipolar. She had a very high activity level, including in the back seat of a truck, where the truckers were going by, "Woo, woo."
Stunning developments in the shooting death of a highly popular Tennessee church minister. And tonight, his wife under arrest on murder one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler has confessed to the murder of her husband, Matthew Winkler, shooting him on March 22, 2006, leaving Selmer with their three daughters.
GRACE: Suspect one in the assault and murder of 24-year-old New York grad student Imette St. Guillen has a date with Lady Justice in open court. Darryl Littlejohn, slapped with an indictment on murder one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Imette was a good person, a kind person. Her heart was full of love.
GRACE: ... Quadrevion "Dre" Henning, ages 11 and 12, last seen Sunday, March 19th, 3:30 in the afternoon, at a little area near where they lived, played basketball...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody that has them, just don`t mistreat them. If he never comes back home, just don`t mistreat him. Don`t mistreat him. You know, you might have taken him, for whatever reason, but cherish them. Don`t make them suffer.
GRACE: Thank you, everyone, for inviting us into your homes. Good night from our New York control room. And a special farewell to fallen Officer Joseph Whitehead and our fan, Inez Crawford (ph).
I`m signing off again for tonight and this week. And until Monday night, good night, friend.