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White House Chief of Staff Andy Card Resigns; Drinking on the Job?
Aired March 28, 2006 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Kyra Phillips at the top of the hour.
Shakeup in the West Wing -- one of the president's most trusted advisers packing up, and the man who oversees the nation's budget is taking over. Andy Card has been White House chief of staff for five- and-a-half years, but says it's time to move on. And many of the president's friends and critics agree. Card's resignation was accepted, after what's described as days of discussion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Andy is respected by his colleagues for his humility, his decency, and his thoughtfulness. They have looked at him as a leader and a role model. And they, like me, will miss him.
On most days, Andy is the first one to arrive in the West Wing, and among the last to leave. And, during those long days over many years, I have come to know Andy as more than my chief of staff. He is leaving the White House, but he will always be my friend.
ANDREW CARD, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: You're a good man, Mr. President. And do you great things. I'm grateful for the friendship that you have shown me. I'm grateful for the love that Laura has shared with Kathy and with me. I'm grateful for the White House staff that has served you so well and helped me do a better job.
But it is a different season. And Josh Bolten is the right person for that season.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Budget Director Josh Bolten will take Card's place, a switch welcomed by many Republicans, but written off by many Democrats as insufficient.
Josh Bolten may not be a household name, but he's known in the House of Representatives and the Senate. And he and President Bush go way back.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush's delight in giving aides nicknames is no secret. His moniker for Josh Bolten is "Yosh." Two of Bolten's passions, besides his White House job, are bowling and motorcycles. He's known to give bowling shoes as birthday presents. Bolten also helped organize Bikers For Bush in the 2000 campaign. He road his Harley-Davidson to the Iowa straw poll in Ames.
Bolten's roots inside the D.C. beltway are deep. His father was a career-long employee of the CIA. Like former Vice President Al Gore, Bolten is a graduate of D.C.'s Saint Albans prep school. Next stop was Princeton, and then Stanford Law School. The 51-year-old Bolten, who is single, earned his first political stripes in the administration of President Bush's father.
During the Clinton administration, Bolten jumped to the arena of international finance, spending five years in London with Goldman Sachs International. He returned to the states to help out with Mr. Bush's first run for the White House in 2000. Before taking over as Mr. Bush's budget director, he served as deputy chief of staff for policy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: The chief of staff is sometimes referred to as the president's right-hand man, but the West Wing is a crowded place. In terms of influence, the role falls right between the vice president and Mr. Bush's senior adviser, Karl Rove. A select group of assistants also have the president's ear, among them, Deputy Chief of Staff Joe Hagin, counselor to the president Dan Bartlett, Michael Gerson, in charge of policy and planning, White House counsel Harriet Miers, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, and Press Secretary Scott McClellan.
He was known as a penny-pincher, not when it came to defense. Former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger died today. Under President Reagan, he oversaw one of the biggest peacetime military buildups in U.S. military. Weinberger persuaded Congress to spend more than $1 trillion on weapons in Reagan's first term and helped make "Peace through strength" a catchphrase of the era. Caspar Weinberger died at the age of 88.
Two important tests, two critical failures -- after setting up a fake company and making fake I.D.s, operatives were able to get through customs checkpoints in Texas and Washington state with the makings of real dirty bombs. Luckily, those operatives work for the U.S. government.
But CNN's Brian Todd says, the stunt is still setting off alarms in Washington. Remember, when the story broke yesterday, a lot of people still wanting to understand how it happened.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kyra.
And they're trying to get at those questions today -- very tough questions being asked in the Senate today about this report that everyone is now talking about from the Government Accountability Office -- the GAO saying, late last year, two teams of investigators, undercover, were able to snuggle into the U.S. enough radioactive material to make two dirty bombs.
Sources tell us they did enter at checkpoints in Texas and Washington state. Now, as security experts testify about the vulnerabilities here, officials at Customs and Border Protection say, we need to put this into some perspective. Top officials tell us, even though the material was enough to make two dirty bombs, they don't believe there was enough radioactive material for those bombs to do much damage.
But the report does show some serious vulnerability. Specifically, officials tell us, even though the radioactive material set off alarms at those border checkpoints, the undercover agents were able to use fake documents from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to get the material across the border.
Just a short time ago, I spoke with Jay Ahern. He is the top official at Customs and Border Protection in charge of entry points to the U.S. And he said, the problem here was the inability to detect those fake documents. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAYSON P. AHERN, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER, OFFICE OF FIELD OPERATIONS, CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION: We're making sure that we have a 24-by-7 operation center here, where our officers have reach- back capability through our laboratory and scientific service centers -- center.
And we're looking to match that up with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to make sure that we, then, have access to their license database on a real-time basis, so we can validate who is authorized to be carrying this type of material into the country. That did not exist when GAO across our borders December. So, there was not an opportunity do that. That's what we're working diligently to have in place within the next 30 days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: And Ahern says, that's just a matter of connectivity, not funding or anything else, connectivity, getting the system that the Customs and Border Protection people have hooked up with the system at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
He says that is what is going to be in place in about a month. We also contact a -- an official with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. They acknowledge, there was a problem with the fake NRC documents, but he reinforced what Jay Ahern just said, that agency, too, taking steps to be able to better able to detect those forgeries -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Brian, could tests like that be going on right now or in the future? Is this something that will continue to help with checks and balances?
TODD: Yes. They're testing the system out. Again, they want to connect to -- it's essentially cross-referencing. The alarm goes off at the border, right now, they have no mechanism -- mechanism to check the documents of the person who is setting that alarm with NRC documents to see if that person is licensed to carry that stuff. They showed them fake NRC documents at the border. They said, OK, go ahead. So, that was a problem. That's what they're trying to address in the next 30 days.
PHILLIPS: Brian Todd, thanks so much.
TODD: Sure.
PHILLIPS: Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
Perhaps the most important election in all of Israel's life -- that's how some Israelis see today's vote for a new Israeli parliament and possibly, in the not-too-distant future, for new Israeli borders.
CNN's John Vause in Jerusalem -- John.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra.
The first exit polls have come in from the Israeli television networks. This appears to be a very unexpected result, if these exit polls are, in fact, correct. Now, we're talking about a 120-seat parliament, the Knesset. According to threat exit polls, the Kadima Party, which bolted to the very front of the opinion polls, stayed there for all of this election campaign, the party founded by the comatose Ariel Sharon, expected, at one stage, to get as many as 44 seats -- now according to this exit poll, only 29 seats.
The Labor Party, expected to get about 17, doing much better, according to this exit poll, 22 seats in the 120-seat parliament -- a big surprise. The very right-wing Israel Beitenu, a Russian immigrant party, receiving 14 seats, led by Avigdor Lieberman.
The other big story out of this Israeli election, the once dominant conservative Likud Party, led by the former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, reduced now to 11 seats. So, the Israel Beitenu Party is now the third most dominant party in the Israeli parliament.
Another upset result in all of this, if these exit polls are right, what appears to be a protest vote -- the Pensioners' Party, which never before has managed to reach the threshold to get a seat in the Knesset, the parliament, now, according to this exit poll, receiving as many as eight seats.
What this now means, Kyra, is that Ehud Olmert, the acting Israeli prime minister, who had campaigned on this platform of defining Israel's borders once and for all, with or without an agreement from the Palestinians, is now in serious trouble of trying to push this through. He does not have the mandate he was looking for.
Most of the analysts expected -- or said -- he needed at least 35 seats to get that policy, those campaign promises through. He does not have that. What this means now, more political instability for Israel in the months and the years ahead -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, John Vause, will stay on top of those results. Thank you so much.
Meanwhile, 11 million bucks in weed, you want to see what it looks like?
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Stick around.
The news keeps coming. And we will keep bringing it to you -- more LIVE FROM next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, every Sunday, they came to hear him preach. Now members of a Tennessee church are saying a final goodbye to their minister days after finding him dead in his home. Matthew Winkler was shot to death, allegedly by his widow, Mary, who is now charged with first-degree murder.
Police say she confessed to planning the killing and pulling the trigger -- no word yet on a motive. Police found Mary Winkler and the couple's three children in Alabama a day after the preacher's body was discovered. The community's main concern now is the children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDDIE THOMPSON, FAMILY FRIEND OF WINKLERS: We want to inform America that we have established a fund to help the Winkler girls. We love these girls. They are just precious.
They're intelligent. They're happy. They have been well cared for. And now we want to focus 100 percent of our attention on helping these young ladies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: The Winkler children are living with their father's parents right now.
Missing for the second time this month. Remember this couple? They were rescued last week, along with four other members, after being snowboard -- snowbound, rather, in Oregon for 17 days. Albert and Becky Higgenbothem, reportedly, have disappeared again, this time with the law after them.
They're wanted in Arizona on drug charges. Police there say the couple was caught with a small amount of meth last year, had agreed to cooperate, then vanished, until making news last week.
When police talk about bales of marijuana, well, you know it's a big haul. Is this big enough for you? More than a ton of pot in all, about 2,500 pounds, worth more than $11 million on the street. Police in Philly found it in the basement of a house where someone had reported a burglary. They say it's their biggest marijuana bust in decades. Two men at the house have been arrested.
Fed Fund Freddie, Money Man, K-Fed. Call him what you will. Ali Velshi can make interest rates fun for everyone, all ages. We're not kidding.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: So, what do you get when you put 27 smart people around a table in Washington eight times a year?
Ali Velshi?
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You get a -- a quarter-point rate increase. Or, apparently, that is what has been going on the last 15 times they have done this.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: But I have -- this is not your normal Fed conversation. The rates went up by a quarter percent, to 4.7 percent. But this is entirely different, Kyra, because we have pictures.
PHILLIPS: Oh, my gosh.
VELSHI: We have pictures...
PHILLIPS: Never-seen-before...
VELSHI: ... of what goes on...
PHILLIPS: ... pictures.
VELSHI: ... inside that room.
I don't know. I -- I -- I got to tell you. I got -- I want to work for the Fed. I want to see how they think. Like, they release these pictures. That's Ben Bernanke. He's the -- this is his first meeting as head of the Fed. It's a 14-year appointment. And that's what happens. When we get that quarter-point increase, those are the people who are discussing it.
They are among the smartest brains in the economy. You know, it's hard to figure out exactly what this stuff is. What you have to know is, those are interest rates. And, as interest rates go up, it becomes more expensive to borrow money. And whether you're an individual or a business, you tend to save more. You tend not to borrow as much.
And that controls inflation, because everybody is not spending as much money. Now, I have been doing this for a long time, Kyra. And until I was talking to one of the producers on your show this morning, I didn't know about this fancy Web site that explains the -- the Fed.
PHILLIPS: Oh, the Fed kids Web site? VELSHI: Fed kids Web site.
I got to tell you, I don't know -- that is -- that's a sophisticated Web site. It looks like a kids Web site, but it has got all sorts of questions on it.
And go ahead and quiz me.
PHILLIPS: oh, you ready for this?
VELSHI: I'm ready.
PHILLIPS: How did you know we pulled a couple things for you?
You -- you didn't...
VELSHI: My producer helped.
PHILLIPS: But you didn't cheat? You didn't look at the answers, right?
VELSHI: No, I did do the entire quiz on my own, though, and I got all the questions -- the answers right...
PHILLIPS: Oh, you did?
VELSHI: ... which is -- yes. I mean, that's not...
PHILLIPS: So, basically, you're already...
VELSHI: That's...
PHILLIPS: ... coming forward and bragging that you knew everything already?
VELSHI: That I know way too much about the Federal Reserve? Yes.
PHILLIPS: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: So, here we go. Here's one of the questions.
When was the Federal Reserve Board created, and by whom?
(BUZZING SOUND)
PHILLIPS: Was it...
VELSHI: Nineteen thirteen, Woodrow Wilson and Congress.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Oh, it wasn't George W. Bush in 2004?
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: No, no.
PHILLIPS: All right.
VELSHI: But that was close. It was a good -- good second guess.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: OK.
And do we know why Woodrow Wilson and Congress created the Federal Reserve Board in 1913?
VELSHI: Yes, to -- to make sure there was an enough money out there, to make sure there was liquidity, so that there was a board, an independent board, that made sure that there wasn't a run on the banks and that people felt secure that, when they invest in financial institutions, there's a -- this organization that is not political that actually looks after their money. It's meant to be a non- political organization.
PHILLIPS: But it is political, in many ways. It becomes...
VELSHI: Is is very -- oh, it's very political.
PHILLIPS: You know? I mean -- all right. Here we go, second question: Printing paper money is a function of the Federal Reserve system...
(BUZZING SOUND)
PHILLIPS: ... true or false?
VELSHI: False.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: And shall we...
VELSHI: Am I having way too much fun with this thing?
PHILLIPS: Yes. You're having way too much fun.
VELSHI: You know, it's a fun Web site. It's a fun Web site, but my...
PHILLIPS: You have to give the proper answer.
VELSHI: False. It's the Bureau of Engraving and Printing that prints money.
PHILLIPS: It...
VELSHI: Remember, I was there?
PHILLIPS: When were you there?
VELSHI: A few years ago, when they -- when they released the $20 bill. And I had that big...
PHILLIPS: Oh, that's right.
VELSHI: ... guy behind me.
PHILLIPS: You were live in there. I do...
VELSHI: I was live in the room.
PHILLIPS: You know what? I do remember that, actually.
VELSHI: You know -- you know what the Fed needs?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: ... should have pulled video of that.
What does the Fed mean? What does the Fed need?
VELSHI: What's that?
PHILLIPS: I should have pulled video...
VELSHI: The Fed -- the Fed needs...
PHILLIPS: ... from that live shot.
VELSHI: The Fed needs a -- a mascot. If they want to be sexy, the -- their Web site is fine. But they need something a little juicer.
PHILLIPS: Oh, I know what's coming next.
VELSHI: Right.
PHILLIPS: Is this the Ali Velshi bobblehead?
VELSHI: That -- this is the only doll I had. Ironically, we're wearing the same clothes today.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: Can you see that?
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: I can see that.
VELSHI: Notice how we are wearing...
PHILLIPS: Where are the glasses?
VELSHI: ... exactly the same stuff? Like, that is kind of weird.
And I have got a dollar bill covering the lower part of my body. I -- I -- I...
PHILLIPS: Why is that?
VELSHI: It's -- by the way, the doll is fully clothed, just so you know. It's not like I'm -- but I'm thinking...
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Is it -- beer belly -- covering the beer belly.
VELSHI: They need...
(LAUGHTER) 9 VELSHI: The Fed needs a mascot, needs a superhero or a -- a rap star, somebody, you know, to explain to people what it is.
PHILLIPS: All right. So, what are we going to name the little bobblehead?
VELSHI: V-Money.
PHILLIPS: V-Money?
VELSHI: Or Quarter-Point. They raise interest rates by a quarter-point each time. So, how about -- that's a good rap name, Quarter-Point.
PHILLIPS: But you got -- well, you have got to say it like 50 Cent. You got to say Quarter-Point.
VELSHI: Quarter-Point, yes, exactly.
PHILLIPS: Quarter-Point.
VELSHI: Or -- or how about the Inflation Sensation?
PHILLIPS: Inflation sensation. That kind of sounds like a...
VELSHI: What else? Oh, my producer, Todd Bonin (ph), liked Fed Fund Freddie.
PHILLIPS: Fed Fund Freddie.
VELSHI: Yes.
PHILLIPS: That's kind of -- the...
VELSHI: Quarter...
PHILLIPS: The alliteration is too quick. I kind of like V- Money. It's easy...
VELSHI: V-Money.
PHILLIPS: Yes. Easy to say.
VELSHI: We could just -- I just could go with that, you know, as my -- my name from here on.
PHILLIPS: Ali Velshi, and, by the way, the Fed kids Web site, it's pretty awesome. It's -- it's pretty -- a great interactive Web site to get your kids involved...
VELSHI: Yes.
PHILLIPS: ... and interested and...
VELSHI: FederalReserve.gov/kids.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
VELSHI: It's a -- it's -- it's -- I'm really enjoying it, I must say.
PHILLIPS: There we go.
VELSHI: Thank you to -- to you guys.
PHILLIPS: Well, it's our producer, Angie Massey (ph). She comes up with all those great ideas.
VELSHI: Angie (ph) does.
PHILLIPS: Ali Velshi, thanks so much. We will talk to you again as we reach...
VELSHI: In a half-an-hour or so.
PHILLIPS: Yes, as we reach the closing bell.
VELSHI: Good.
PHILLIPS: Stay tuned, because Lou Dobbs going to be debating this whole issue on immigration coming up with Maria Elena Salinas from Univision. You will not want miss that debate. Trust me.
The news keeps coming. We will keep bringing it to you -- more LIVE FROM next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Ever suspected some of your co-workers sipping more than just coffee on the job? Well, odds are, you're right. Researchers at the University of Buffalo say 7 percent of employees admit to drinking alcohol at work in the past year.
CNN's Heidi Collins has the sobering details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) "J.D.", RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC: It started innocently enough, just a sip of dad's wine or a sip of his beer.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): At first, partying was just a way to blow off steam.
"J.D.": As I got into my late teens, it was -- it was an everyday occurrence. Friends would show me pictures of things that we were doing. It -- some of it was hilarious. Some of it was just funny. But, later on, the -- the stakes got higher.
COLLINS: Back then, "J.D.", now the owner of a successful multimillion dollar construction company, didn't let drinking get in the way of work.
"J.D.": Whether that was at noon, when we got rained out; or whether it was at 8:00 at night, you would get back to the yard. You park the rigs, and you drink.
COLLINS: Ambitious, bright and bold, "J.D." started his own excavation company when he was in his 20s.
"J.D.": I became a workaholic long before I was an alcoholic.
COLLINS: But, as the pressure to succeed grew, so did "J.D."'s problems with booze. Drinking after work, soon became drinking at work.
"J.D.": I would close the door to the office and start drinking, or I would just simply leave, go to the bars.
COLLINS: "J.D." even made deals when he was drunk.
"J.D.": There were times where I would have conversations with either employees or sometimes customers, and the following day, try to piece it all back together.
COLLINS: Sometimes, "J.D." became verbally abusive.
"J.D.": If I felt that somebody had not done everything that I expected them to do, that was it -- no explanations, no second chances.
COLLINS (on camera): And you would blow up and -- and fire them?
"J.D.": Instantly.
COLLINS (voice-over): But the greatest damage happened in his personal life. "J.D." has been arrested numerous times, including three DUIs.
(On camera): What -- what was the low point when you were drinking?
"J.D.": I have two daughters that I haven't seen in about 14 months for more than seven or eight hours total. And I think that that's -- that was probably bottom. Not probably -- that was bottom.
DIANNE ALLEN, CLINICAL DIRECTOR, GULF COAST RECOVERY: So, is there anything anybody wants to talk about?
COLLINS (voice-over): In October, "J.D." checked himself into Gulf Coast Recovery, near Tampa, Florida.
ALLEN: Intelligence and affluence are your two biggest barriers to staying sober.
COLLINS: Dianne Allen has been working with people in recovery for 20 years. She says there is a desperate need for specialized treatment for executives.
ALLEN: I don't know if they drink more, but it's hidden longer. Money insulates them. They can go get a DUI, hire a good attorney, get off with reckless driving, and brag about it.
COLLINS (on camera): What is so different about treating them? What sort of traits do they have?
ALLEN: Most of the people that I see here are creative. They're very fast thinkers, usually, a little bit more intelligent, and they tend to be very stuck in their ways, but, yet, real creative at the same time.
COLLINS (voice-over): They may also be isolated.
ALLEN: For the most part, they're at the top of their company. And, so, they don't have a lot of people to talk to.
COLLINS: Here, there is a lot of talking. Along with attending 12-step meetings, executives meet one-on-one with Dianne and spend up to 16 hours a week with other executives in group therapy.
ALLEN: One of the things your addiction does is, it undermines who you are.
COLLINS: They're also given homework, writing assignments to reflect on why they drink and what they will do to stay sober. The program is intentionally small -- no more than 10 executives at any given time.
Alumni like "J.D." are allowed and encouraged to check in often.
"J.D.": It eats me up because I cheated myself, I lied to myself.
COLLINS: But it's not just about talking. What also makes this program unique is its focus on holistic living. Where "J.D."'s" priority used to be hitting the bar, it's now hitting the barbells. Executives are required to work out with a trainer and get massages. Meditation and nutrition are the other key components. Clean since the end of October, "J.D." has lost 25 pounds.
ALLEN: What I'm trying to do is have them see that if they have a balance between a mental and an emotional and a physical and a spiritual way of living, that that balance comes together in a synergy and makes them more effective people.
COLLINS: The program is also specifically designed for people who cannot drop out of work for a month. Executives are allowed to keep in touch with the office. "J.D." says every now and then he thinks about having a drink, but ultimately keeping clean is far too important.
(on camera): Where do you see yourself in five years?
"J.D.": I see myself sober, sane, with my girls. I want to be happy.
COLLINS: Heidi Collins, CNN, Tampa, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: And Heidi's report is part of a week-long focus on "ANDERSON COOPER." "Alcoholism, Hiding in Plain Sight." You can catch it on "A.C. 360" weeknights at 10:00 Eastern.
Well, it's a word that means controversy on both sides of the border: immigration. Our own Lou Dobbs and another opinionated T.V. host, Univision anchor Maria Elena Salinas, will take sides when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Unless you're a Native American, your ancestors were immigrants, or maybe you're one yourself and maybe that's why emotions run so high, opinions so strong, when immigration intersects with politics. CNN's Lou Dobbs has spoken at length about American's broken borders, and Univision news anchor Maria Elena Salinas doesn't like much of what she's heard.
Salinas criticizes Dobbs in an editorial, saying he's launched ruthless attacks on undocumented immigrants and sided with a anti- immigrant group against a program to train Latino workers. I have a feeling we're in for a very good debate.
In Miami, Univision anchor and author of the upcoming book, "I Am My Father's Daughter, Living A Life Without Secrets," Maria Elena Salinas, and from New York, CNN's own Lou Dobbs -- great to have you both.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good to be with you.
MARIA ELENA SALINAS, UNIVISION ANCHOR: Hello, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: I guess, you know, we threw out some of Maria Elena's criticism there. Mr. Dobbs, would you like to respond?
DOBBS: Well, the criticism I'm not sure I quite understand. The fact of the matter is, my view is straightforward. You cannot reform immigration unless you can control immigration. And you cannot control immigration unless you have secure, controlled borders. And the Senate Judiciary Committee began in the wrong place, repeating the mistakes of 20 years ago.
And the people who will pay the price for these mistakes, if the Senate endorses those mistakes, will be the American working man and woman and the middle class of this country, and the two million Hispanic workers in this country whose jobs are lost to the most recent two million illegal immigrants into this country, the Pew Hispanic Center report a year and a half ago bearing that out.
PHILLIPS: Maria Elena, do you want to start with the job part of this or go back to controlling immigration means controlling the borders?
SALINAS: Well, I'd like to say something, because he says that the committee began on the wrong foot, and I don't necessarily think so because they voted to double the amount of workers on the border of security workers of border patrol agents. I don't think that's starting off on the wrong end.
And I think it's very important to see that the Committee also voted to have a guest worker program that will would lead to legalization. Mr. Dobbs is saying that he is representing Americans, yet when you hear that President Bush is on the side of immigrants, that a bipartisan committee is on the side of immigrants, that you have, according to some polls, 76 percent of legal immigrants who say that undocumented immigrants should be able to come to this country, and 61 percent of Americans say that too, you wonder -- it's also the Catholic Church, it's also the labor movement -- who is on your side, Mr. Dobbs?
We're already talking about the majority in this country who do support some kind of program that would allow immigrants to come this to country and stay, even if it's on a temporary basis, and work here.
PHILLIPS: Lou.
DOBBS: Maria Elena, I think you know me well enough. We've known each other for some time. I don't come to a position or a view based on the number of people who agree with me or disagree with me. In point of fact, I'm often the one who is confronting the orthodoxy whether it be on so-called free trade policies, outsourcing.
But in this case, in terms of border security, the statistics, the survey results you quote really are at somewhat at a variance with those I'm familiar with. Most Americans decidedly do not want anything less than control of their borders, absolute border security.
SALINAS: Well, the "Washington Post"/ABC poll shows that 61 percent of those people, of American citizens, do believe that immigrants should be allowed to come here to this country, as long as they pay their taxes, as long as they don't have a criminal background, and as long, of course, as they learn English.
PHILLIPS: Lou, you don't have an issue with that. If they want to come here and become citizens and pay taxes and compete with Americans that ...
DOBBS: Well, Maria Elena knows that, Kyra. She's doing something that a lot of activists groups are doing. They're trying to confuse a lot of the issues. Let me be clear. I embrace immigrants, I am absolutely opposed to illegal immigration.
I am exposed to the exploitation of illegal labor by illegal employers. I am opposed to the -- if you want it talk about the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has an agenda. It wants those people who happen to be Catholic in this country, and they really don't care much at all, if at all, what the cost is to taxpayers in this country, the cost to the government. And that's a shame.
SALINAS: Well, Mr. Dobbs, I'm sorry to interrupt ...
DOBBS: The Democrats want, if I may -- the Democrats want those votes. The Republicans want that cheap labor. And no one is representing the view of American working men and women, our middle class, who in poll after poll, by the way, Maria Elena, do not want anything less than full border security and who expect nothing less than full border security and who want rational immigration reform. Nothing that is on the table, by the way, incorporates that.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: Well, Mr. Lou, I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that you want security. I haven't heard anyone say, no, we shouldn't have secure borders. Of course we should have secure borders. But our borders should not only be secured at the south border with Mexico.
DOBBS: May I ask you a question, Maria Elena?
SALINAS: No, let me finish Mr. Dobbs, because you already had your opportunity to speak. Of course we should have security in our southern border, in our northern border, in our borders within each state. Let's remember that just last week there were federal investigators that tried to cross through the 21 different airports and were able to put in bomb making materials.
What is going on with the security in our airports? And what about those immigrants, not only the ones that cross the border, but the ones who come here by plane and stay and overstay their visas? The reality is that those people who are fueling this anti-immigrant sentiment do have some racist undertones to some of their rhetoric.
PHILLIPS: Do you feel that Lou is a racist?
SALINAS: No, I don't necessarily say that Mr. Dobbs is a racist, I'm sure that in his heart, Mr. Dobbs is very concerned about his country. I am, too. I'm an American citizen. I was born in Los Angeles. I'm an American also. Just because my name is Salinas doesn't mean I'm less an American than Mr. Dobbs is.
But the reality is that if we talk about undocumented immigrants, there are 11 million undocumented immigrants, half of those are from Mexico. You have over a million from Europe, over a million from Asia, over a quarter of a million from Africa.
I would like to see what plan Mr. Dobbs suggests so that we can go out and try to track down 113,000 blue eyed blonde Germans that are here illegally? What are we going to do to make sure? Are you against illegal immigration or illegal immigration from Mexico and Latin America?
DOBBS: Kyra, I'm sorry. I really cannot let that go without a response.
PHILLIPS: No, go ahead. Then I want to ask you about our prisons.
DOBBS: I think that was that is a shame that Maria Elena would characterize Europeans in this debate, the clear implication is frankly racial in tone. Secondly, I would suggest --
SALINAS: It's not. It's a reality, Mr. Dobbs. You can find those numbers in FAIR's Web site. They have a complete breakdown of the different countries that undocumented immigrants come from and they are not all from Mexico. Less than half are from Mexico, from Central America, South America, Europe, Asia.
Are we going into Chinatown and looking for people? Do you think that we should do that and how are you going do know who is undocumented and who isn't? Or are you just going to target areas where you know there are Hispanics?
DOBBS: I have to tell you, it saddens me to hear this kind of approach on the part of Maria Elena. I must say to you, you're far, far better than this. The implications of what you're saying are remarkable. Let me suggest to you that the mass predominance of illegal immigrants into this country are from Mexico. They are from Central America.
In point of fact, Vicente Fox has more influence over U.S. immigration and its borders than President George W. Bush. The fact is there are five billion people in this world who are far, far poorer than the poorest of Mexico, half of whom are in poverty.
We could build all of the guest worker programs you like, put together amnesty and the fact is if we do not deal with the border security, do not deal with the incipient poverty and the absolute ineffective government of Mexico, this nation will be in precisely the same point, it's in the exactly the same position and point that it was the day before such a guest worker program was passed.
Those are the realities that we have to deal with and Maria Elena, may I ask you this --
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: You're talking about Mexico. That means that you are against immigrants from Mexico.
DOBBS: I'm not against immigrants from Mexico. I'm not against immigrants from any part of the world. Point of fact, I embrace immigrants. The fact of the matter is, I love Mexico. I am against illegal immigration. I am against continuing the sham that is homeland security in which our ports are not secured, our borders are not secured. I think that this government should be held accountable.
SALINAS: Our country is not secure.
DOBBS: For its absolute dereliction of duty to the well-being of the American people if you want to know exactly how I feel.
PHILLIPS: Maria Elena, the workers that are here in the United States, do they want to become citizens? Or do they just look at this area as a way to make a paycheck and go back to Mexico?
SALINAS: No, I think that they do want to become citizens. The immigration from Latin America in these past 10 or 20 years is different from the immigration from Europe where people did not want to have any link from their country, they wanted to leave and start a new life.
Most of the people that come here from Latin America do want jobs and they would love to be able to be part of this country. They want to contribute to this country. They already do.
As we can see in these marches in the last few days, hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of Los Angeles, Chicago, Milwaukee of Atlanta, of Denver, all these people, these are grass roots organizations that have been putting together these marches, and they're peaceful marches, may I add, of people say we are fed up, we are sick and tired of being treated as criminals.
DOBBS: As criminals? Maria Elena -- wait a minute, wait a minute, that's precisely what they are. They have broken the law, they have broken a misdemeanor law, but it's a violation of law.
The idea that anybody would have the absolute chutzpah to take to the streets to demand rights when they are in violation of the law in actually being in this country is remarkable in and of itself.
SALINAS: It has nothing to do with legislation. Even though they were opposing legislation.
DOBBS: Kyra -- let me ask this. Maria Elena, do you know who Ceser Chavez is?
SALINAS: Of course I do.
DOBBS: Do you know the importance of his role in this country?
SALINAS: Of course.
DOBBS: What do you think of the fact that in southern California those young Hispanic students were in the streets, high school students, where half of them are dropping out of high school every year, half of those students, marching on Ceser Chavez Day, who committed himself to fighting illegal immigration, because he understood the economic and social cost to his own people as well as the economy of this country. Don't you find that to be obscene?
SALINAS: No, I don't find it to be obscene.
PHILLIPS: Maria Elena in 1969 --
SALINAS: Students should have the right to protest.
DOBBS: Lou has brought up an interesting point. In 1969, he led the march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration, you remember joining him were Walter Mondale, Martin Luther King, the successor of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Ralph Abernathy. Not Martin Luther King, Ralph Abernathy was there.
His whole thing was that it was the complete opposite of what we're hearing now, why these protesters are out there. It's an interesting point. It seems that Ceser Chavez, Maria Elena, his whole mission in what he set out to do is being manipulated.
SALINAS: Exactly. May he rest in peace. Let's be realistic. This is an economic necessity. There are industries in this country that would not survive if it weren't for the undocumented labor force. It could be the agriculture industry, the tourism industry, the construction industry, they would not survive.
DOBBS: Should they not, Maria Elena, also be coming from Africa and from Asia? Should we not have a greater representation of the world's population? Shouldn't the United States be making those decisions about who will make up its society and its workforce? Over half of those illegal immigrants coming into this country don't have a high school education.
SALINAS: I have not read anywhere in the legislation that was approved yesterday or at least preliminary legislation in the Judiciary Committee that those guest workers have to be from Mexico, from Central America.
DOBBS: I guess you weren't examining the idea of a de facto amnesty that would legalize those who had been sent here by the Mexican government and Vicente Fox. More than half of the illegal immigrants have come in the past five years because of the promise of amnesty, because of the lure of jobs by illegal employers and over a hundred billion dollars in cost to taxpayers, working men and women in this country who are citizens who are here lawfully.
In point of fact, it is the height of arrogance that anyone should demand amnesty, should demand rights based on an unlawful presence in this country. It is remarkable that there would even be this discussion.
SALINAS: Kyra, I know that you're the one asking the questions. If you would allow me to ask Mr. Dobbs a question.
SALINAS: Go ahead and ask him a question, but I think you should point out that you're the daughter of two immigrants, one legal, and one undocumented. I think we should point that out. Lou, I know you know that. That adds an interesting background into this mix. DOBBS: I think it's irrelevant, but interesting.
SALINAS: The question I want to ask Mr. Dobbs. You keep bringing up Mexico, you keep bringing up Vicente Fox. Do you think that all undocumented immigrants are a burden to this country or only the ones that come from Mexico?
DOBBS: I think that all illegal immigrants in this country are a burden, illegal immigrants are a burden to the taxpayer, to our -- unequivocally.
SALINAS: Even though they are.
DOBBS: If I may finish the answer of the question you asked. The idea that you would equate the benefit to unlawful illegal employers for exploiting that labor, and apparently the government of Mexico -- which, by the way, is the origin of most illegal aliens in this country by far -- the fact that they are not concerned about the dignity of their own people, the fact that we are not concerned as Americans about the lack of dignity in permitting the exploitation of these people, whether you are a Democrat, a Republican, a liberal or a conservative, to me, is a shame.
PHILLIPS: Maria Elena -- we lost her. What I wanted to ask her, from a personal perspective, Lou, was as someone --
DOBBS: Well, I'll answer for her. I'm sure she'll be thrilled with that, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: You know she won't be happy with that, Lou. But I wanted to know from her perspective, the point you brought up, when she sees a group of young men from Mexico standing on a street corner, running to a truck trying to get paid whatever amount per hour, how does that make her feel from a cultural perspective? We'll see if we can get her linked back up.
DOBBS: Let me say something, because you did talk about the fact that her book is an interesting tale with her father.
(CROSS TALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry?
PHILLIPS: No, the point about her two immigrant parents. You look at someone like her who probably would have never been able to have this opportunity.
DOBBS: You can look at someone like, for example, me. You know, most people look at an overweight, overaged news man. The fact is, when I was a kid, I was in a working-class family, my mother working as a bookkeeper, my father bringing in a small amount of money, I assure you. My family worked, I worked from the time I was a kid. There are millions of us in this country.
The issue is this is the land of opportunity. We're denying it now. We're destroying our middle class, we're not making it possible for our working men and women, who are citizens of this country, to get by, and that's criminal. The American dream is being lost for Americans.
PHILLIPS: We're a rich country, nobody should be unemployed.
DOBBS: We cannot turn this country -- I'm sorry?
PHILLIPS: No one should be unemployed in this country. We shouldn't have Americans that are out of a job. It's crazy with all the --
DOBBS: Everyone should have that opportunity.
When you say no one, let's be clear. No American, no American should be denied the opportunity -- educational opportunity -- and we're failing an entire generation in education. We're permitting this government, Democrats and Republicans alike, to create these shibboleths about guest worker programs in an inability to control our borders. If that were true, we might as well raise the white flag of surrender because we're allowing the destruction of the foundation of the country, which is our middle class. It's time to get honest. It would be great to start in Washington.
PHILLIPS: Lou Dobbs, I'm flying the white flag right now. I'm getting the hardest wrap I've ever gotten in my life.
DOBBS: Never fly the white flag.
PHILLIPS: Lou Dobbs, thank you. Maria Elena Salinas also -- sorry we lost that connection.
All right, Lou -- one more day. He begins his reporting from Mexico on a three-nation summit on immigration, trade and border control. The leaders of the U.S., Mexico and Canada plus Lou, live from Cancun starting tomorrow.
More LIVE FROM next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: President Bush urging Congress to do the job right when it comes to immigration reform. And CNN Espanol Juan Carlos Lopez just had a sit down one on one with the president. We want to show you a little bit of that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm interested in comprehensive immigration reform that includes not only border security but also a temporary worker plan that recognizes there are hard working people here doing jobs Americans won't do, and they ought to be here in such a way so they don't have to hide in the shadows of our society.
The fundamental issue, by the way, it seems like to me on the guest worker plan, is somebody getting to the head of the line when it comes to citizenship. My answer is no, they ought to get in line. But they don't get to get to the head of the line. That's where some of the tension about the debate is taking place right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: More with Juan Carlos Lopez in his exclusive interview with the president on immigration coming up in THE SITUATION ROOM just a couple minutes away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: The Dow has been down after the Fed's decision to raise a key interest rate again. Our Ali Velshi here for the "Closing Bell."
Ali?
ALI VELSHI, CNN: That would be the fifteenth straight quarter- point hike since June 2004. You know, there was a point where Fed Funds were at 1 percent; they're now at 4.7 percent. None of us mere mortals, Kyra, have the luxury of Fed Funds Rate -- that means about 7.75 percent is the Prime Rate in the country.
Markets didn't love the fact that rates might continue to go up. They also didn't love the fact that oil is up almost $2.
Kyra, it's time for me to say goodbye to you, so you have a fantastic afternoon. Oil closing -- thank you, Kyra -- oil closing $1.91 higher to $66.07 on concerns in Nigeria, Iran and Norway. The Dow settling -- 92 points lower to 11,157. The Nasdaq down 10 points, 2304.
Here's Wolf Blitzer, in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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