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Was Young Woman Assaulted by Duke Lacrosse Team?
Aired March 31, 2006 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, Duke University under fire for rape allegations against members of one of its most elite athletic teams. Was a young student from another school assaulted, beaten and choked by Duke lacrosse players while at a private party? Tonight, who`s telling the truth? And tonight, a mom-to-be fights back for her life and the life of her unborn baby girl. But after 33 stab wounds -- repeat, 33 -- the victim found dead in her own home. The case is cold, but tonight, while the perpetrator roams Louisiana streets free, we look for answers.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, live to Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. Tonight, a serial killer walks the streets after brutally stabbing a pregnant mom 33 times. Her wounds were defensive. That lady fought back. We look for answers.
But first tonight: At Duke University, they consider themselves the cream of the crop -- top grades, top scores, rich endowment, top athletics. Duke University squares off with Lady Justice. Tonight, legal smackdown, Duke`s entire lacrosse team under the microscope on the alleged multiple rape of another student. Tonight, we are taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say something horrible happened at this house, a gang rape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Physical coercion and sexual assault are unacceptable in any setting and will not be tolerated at Duke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First degree rape and first degree sexual offense are B1 felonies. The only more serious crime in North Carolina is first degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does not have all the facts, and yet he is out there saying not just that three of the boys are guilty, but they`re all guilty as aiders and abettors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw them all come out, like, a big frat house, and me and my black girlfriend were walking by, and they called us (DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Racial slurs that were involved are relevant to show the mindset, I guess, that was involved in this particular attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to a reporter with WPTF radio, Kevin Miller. Kevin, what is going on at Duke University?
KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Well, Duke University, Nancy, has been slow to respond to these terrible allegations of what has happened with the lacrosse team and other members. They`ve been playing catch-up. They actually played two games before the community found out what actually happened. We`ve had protests there. We`ve had...
GRACE: You know what, Kevin? I`m so glad they didn`t miss a lacrosse game over a little thing like gang rape! Go ahead.
MILLER: Well, Nancy, you know, it`s good you bring that up. They played a game against Cornell and UNC, and they would have played another game against Georgetown, if the community had not heard about what happened and got together and really started these protests. There were protests at the lacrosse game. As a matter of fact, Nancy, the day before the lacrosse game, the lacrosse coach was quoted as saying, Well, the players are well rested and ready to go. We`re ready to take on the (INAUDIBLE) Duke was out of touch when this issue first came to the forefront.
GRACE: They said the team was well rested and ready to take on the La Jollas (ph)?
MILLER: The Georgetown Jollas (ph). That was from the Duke lacrosse coach, yes.
GRACE: That`s good to know. Take a listen, while they`re planning their lacrosse schedule, to what an operator heard on a 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Durham 911. Where`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I don`t know if this is an emergency or not necessarily, but I`m in Durham and I was driving down near Duke`s campus. And it`s me and my black girlfriend. And the guy -- there`s, like, a white guy by the Duke wall, and he was just hollered out (DELETED) to me. And I just don`t -- I didn`t know who to call!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, forget the gangs. Forget the protests and the complaints. Let`s talk about the alleged incident. What do we know?
MILLER: We know that on the 13th, there was a party at 610 North Buchanan (ph) Boulevard. At the 14th, there was a 911 call from a Kroger (ph) in Durham, where you have the security officer talk about the victim. You have the police officer going to the house that morning. No one`s there. The 16th, they show up with a search warrant. Apparently, there were some problems getting people to cooperate. The prosecutor, Durham VA (ph) Michael Nifong, actually had...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! What about problems cooperating? Explain.
MILLER: Well, according to the police report, Michael Nifong -- and we did talk to him on WPTF -- actually had to get a non-testimonial order, Nancy, which you know what that is, it pretty much compels people to cooperate with the police or threaten legal action against them, to get the players to go through a DNA dragnet, to be photographed, to be fingerprinted...
GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let`s go out to Dave Foley, defense attorney. Don`t move, Kevin Miller! David Foley, if they`re innocent, why not cooperate? Why stall? Why did they have to have a court order for 46 or 47 lacrosse members to give DNA? It`s very simple. You take something that looks like a Q-tip. You swab the inside of your mouth. It`s nothing more than like a doctor looking for a sore throat. Why? Why wouldn`t they give their DNA? Let`s think about it, Dave Foley! Give me your best shot.
DAVE FOLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, in terms of this, we`re dealing with young people, OK, who are not necessarily familiar with the law, number one. So they need to have their legal rights...
GRACE: You`re kidding, right?
FOLEY: ... protected...
GRACE: You`re -- you`re kidding?
FOLEY: No, I`m not kidding.
GRACE: Because, you know, at age 17, you know where my father was? He was on a fighter ship halfway around the world, representing his country, about to die for his country. You know what? Don`t talk to me about how young they are, all right?
FOLEY: Well, they`re...
GRACE: These are the elite members...
FOLEY: ... lacrosse players at Duke.
GRACE: ... of the lacrosse team.
FOLEY: They`re not exactly doing what your father did. They`re not...
GRACE: Yes, they`re older than that! They`re older than that!
FOLEY: Well, a little bit older. But the bottom line is they`re not familiar with legal procedure, and so forth. As we know, they have to produce driver`s license, identification and so forth, but they don`t have to give statements or answer questions regarding these matters. And they could potentially be charged if they gave false information or misleading information, so...
GRACE: Well, why would they do that? Why would you go to a cop in an alleged gang rape case, say, and lie and give misleading information? I don`t know -- where`s that coming from? You think they`re...
FOLEY: Because, Nancy, you`d be nervous, and some -- especially when you`re dealing with people, let`s say...
GRACE: I think you`re nervous.
FOLEY: ... trying to protect their friends, and so forth. So...
GRACE: You seem nervous to me. You`re nervous. And you know why? Because there`s really no good reason why, if you`re innocent, you won`t go forward and go, Hey, you want my DNA? Take it. I insist.
FOLEY: Well, again, it`s going to be required anyway, and it was submitted, and they did ultimately cooperate with it, so...
GRACE: You know what, David Foley? Go ahead. I got you. I got you on this one, all right? And when it comes out, if one of these young men - - if -- is the perpetrator, that jury will know they only gave their DNA pursuant to court order.
Renee Rockwell, want to take it on? Do you agree with him?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they obviously can force them to take a DNA test. Another thing they can do is ask them to come in for questions. Nobody has to talk to the police, but if you`re going to go in and if you`re going to give answers and if you`re going to give any kind of testimony, you`d better tell the truth or you`re going to walk your way right into some trouble, potentially an obstruction charge.
GRACE: Take a listen at what the district attorney had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL NIFONG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: When I looked at what happened, I was appalled. I think that most people in this community are appalled. I think that if Joe Cheshire weren`t representing one of the people involved in this case, he might even admit that he was appalled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lacrosse team clearly has not been fully cooperative. The university, I believe, has done pretty much everything that they can, under the circumstances. They obviously don`t have a lot of control over whether or not the lacrosse team members actually speak to the police. I think that their silence is as a result of advice of counsel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to go back to Kevin Miller with WPTF. Kevin, I`m sorry I interrupted you. You left off where they had to get a court order to make these young men come forward and give their DNA oral swabs. What are the allegations as to what exactly happened that night?
MILLER: Nancy, you`re looking at an allegation of first degree rape, strangulation, sexual assault, sodomy, possibly a hate crime.
GRACE: What does the girl say happened?
MILLER: The girl says that she went to the house. This was her second time being an exotic dancer. She...
GRACE: A stripper. Come on, let`s call it straight. She`s a stripper, right?
MILLER: If you say so, Nancy.
GRACE: No, I`m asking you, is she a stripper or not?
MILLER: Look, I...
GRACE: I don`t care.
MILLER: I don`t know. I don`t go to strip clubs, so I don`t know. But anyway, exotic dancer, stripper, what have you. She was dancing for these men. She became uncomfortable, with her partner. They left. They were talked into going back in. They both came in. They were separated. The victim was pulled into a bathroom, where three men allegedly raped and sodomized her and strangled her.
GRACE: Is it true that when police went back, Kevin Miller, went back to the home, I`m embarrassed to say, two days later, after the alleged incident, they actually found the girl`s fake nails torn off in the bathroom where she said the rape occurred?
MILLER: They found her nails. They found her phone. They found her money. They found -- yes, they did, they found the items there listed in the search warrant.
GRACE: Let`s go to prosecutor Holly Hughes. She`s a veteran`s sex crimes prosecutor. Holly, you and I both have prosecuted very difficult rapes. I`ve had a rape victim that was a hooker. I`ve had an armed robbery victim that was a stripper. You know what? I don`t care if you`re a nun, a priest, a virgin or a hooker, nobody should go without Lady Justice taking their side in court.
But let`s get real, Holly. How badly is it going to hurt her credibility if she is a stripper? She`s also a student at a nearby college, but if she`s a stripper, the prosecution`s got to deal with that.
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR, HEAD OF HATE CRIMES UNIT: Yes, they do, Nancy. But the first thing they`re going to do is file motions in limine (ph) to prevent the defense from going into a lot of her past sexual history. They also have the rape shield law, which is going to protect her past from coming up, as far as sexual activity. And while it will be difficult, I think the most important thing is address the issue in voir dire. Be right up front with the jury in the beginning and find out if anybody`s going to have a bias or prejudice.
GRACE: You`re dead on about that. Let`s go, Liz, to Trial 101. Let`s talk about outcry. How important is an immediate outcry, and what is it, Holly Hughes?
HUGHES: ... when you absolutely go right away and tell someone what has happened to you. You can make an outcry by calling 911, Nancy. You can confide in a friend. It`s tantamount to an excited utterance. As soon as this thing happens, you go, you report it. You say to someone, This has happened to me. You give them details. And you seek medical attention.
GRACE: Now, an example that many people are familiar with is the Kobe Bryant alleged rape. That case was dropped when the victim didn`t want to go forward. But in that case, the first outcry witness was another night clerk that she used to date, that happened to be there when the alleged rape took place.
Now, back to you, Renee Rockwell. Why is the outcry so important?
ROCKWELL: It`s important, Nancy, because you want to make sure that somebody just didn`t contrive a story, that they actually did get raped, because naturally, you would think, well, if somebody raped you and assaulted you and strangled you and kidnapped you, how long would it take you to go to the police? And believe it or not, sometimes people don`t want to go to the police. They`re embarrassed. They`re ashamed. And it`s quite natural not to go to the police right after it happened.
GRACE: Let`s go to the director of Let`s Talk Solutions, Kelly Addington, joining us tonight. Nobody wants to go and have a rape kit done. It`s the equivalent of a pelvic exam, plus, all right? No woman wants to go through that unless they absolutely have to. Nobody wants to relive a sex assault. Tell me your take on this, Kelly Addington.
KELLY ADDINGTON, DIR., LET`S TALK SOLUTIONS, RAPE SURVIVOR: I think that`s completely true, Nancy. I think that it`s so important, as a community, for us to embrace this woman. And let me say that I respect and admire her for coming forward immediately and for having the strength and the courage to speak out, to voice her concerns, to say, This has happened to me and it`s not right, and what are we going to do about it? And I think that it`s the community`s obligation and the legal system`s obligation to give a very true, strong look at this.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the president of Duke University has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD BRODHEAD, DUKE UNIV. PRESIDENT: This past weekend, Duke University`s director of athletics, Joe Oliva (ph), decided to forfeit last Saturday`s and today`s scheduled men`s lacrosse games. His decision, which I knew about in advance and fully supported, was based on facts that team members had acknowledged about their March 13 party.
A majority of the team members attended that party, which included underage drinking and the hiring of private party dancers. This conduct was wholly inappropriate to the values of the athletic program and this university, and thus the penalty was imposed. And forfeiting two games, we consider to be a substantial penalty for a team that hoped to compete for a national championship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Mr. President, Mr. President, I heard the mention of underage drinking. I heard the mention of inappropriate party at a house. What about the R-A-P-E allegation? Just...
Straight to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. We`ve got a problem, Koby (ph), either way you look at it. Let`s talk about rape. Let`s talk about sperm. Let`s talk about DNA. What is the problem if there are multiple attackers?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, we do have this problem. As you say, there are allegedly three assailants. They each contribute a genetic profile, and the victim has a genetic profile. As you know, in the emergency room, a sexual assault kit will be completed. There will be oral, anal and vaginal swabs. DNA testing will be done.
But it`s not a simple matter of saying, Well, this person is included or this person is excluded. You`re going to have a genetic profile on the evidence that is a mixture of perhaps four or even more individuals, and it`s very difficult to cut through all the permutations.
GRACE: OK. Hold on. When you have multiple attackers, plus the victim`s DNA, involved in a sample -- what they do in a rape kit is they take -- it looks like a long Q-tip, and they take samples from the lady.
GRACE: And from that, they put it under a microscope and they compare -- they take DNA, if it exists, and they compare. You`re right, anal, vaginal, oral swabs. Now, if you have multiple donors, allegedly three perpetrators and one victim, if that is mixed, can they be isolated in order to make a DNA match, Koby?
KOBILINSKY: They can be isolated. However, if there is an inclusion, the statistics of that inclusion will be very, very low, not the one in trillions, but rather, perhaps one in hundreds or one in thousands. They will be able to exclude people, they will be able to include people, but not at a high probability.
GRACE: Gotcha. Gotcha.
And very quickly, straight back to Holly Hughes, sex crimes veteran. Holly, the other -- if this happened, OK, first of all, the first line of defense is, I didn`t do it. The second line of defense is, I did it, but it was consensual. The third line of defense is, She`s a hooker. Now, let`s just say we get DNA back. They`ll immediately claim consensual. But what about those nails torn off?
HUGHES: That`s exactly right, Nancy. What they have to contend with also is that this woman was beaten. She was bruised. She was battered. And you can call her a stripper. You can call her a hooker. You can use all kinds of derogatory terms about the victim. But no matter how rough someone claims the victim liked it, no one wants to be beaten. And based on the bruising and the beating and the broken nails, Nancy, this is rape. If, in fact, there`s DNA, they can say consent all they want, but the other evidence speaks volumes, and it`s going to negate that.
GRACE: But of course, you know, Holly, you`ve heard the words "not guilty" in a case where you have bruising, where you have DNA results. You`ve got these probably rich kids, lacrosse players, claiming consent or I didn`t do it. This is going to be a courtroom showdown like no other.
Very quickly, let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." The minister`s wife, Mary Winkler, accused of killing her husband, Matthew, waived`s preliminary hearing so gruesome details about his death do not go public, Winkler charged with murder one in the shooting death of her preacher husband. Next stop, grand jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to ask people to hold on and pretend these boys might be their own children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I looked at what happened, I was appalled. I think most people would be appalled. I think that if Joe Cheshire weren`t representing one of the people involved in this case, he might even admit that he was appalled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. The Duke University lacrosse team under the microscope tonight on its claims of serial rape against a dancer. They came to an off-campus home. In that home, three lacrosse players lived. There was a lacrosse party there that night.
I have in my hand the application for search warrant. Clark Goldband, in these documents, these court documents, what does the victim say exactly?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, Nancy, I just want to tell everyone who`s tuned in at home, these are extremely graphic, so if you want to just turn away for a few seconds? The victim stated she tried to leave the three males. Forcefully, they held her legs, arms and sexually assaulted her anally, vaginally and orally. She was hit, kicked, strangled, and during the assault, attempted to defend herself but was overpowered. She was sexually assaulted for an approximate 30-minute time period.
GRACE: Now, to David Foley, veteran defense attorney, this is in an application for search warrant to search the home where this alleged gang rape took place. Duke University lacrosse team members implicated. I`m embarrassed to say it took two full days for cops to go there. If there had been evidence, I`m sure it was flushed down the commode or gotten rid of, innocently or not. But when you file an application for a search warrant, whoever wrote this swore under oath that this was true, correct?
FOLEY: Absolutely. And they have to have a reasonable and articulable (ph) basis to know this, in terms of -- they know the results of the rape test kit. They`ve got to have something. They have her statement at this point, and then that -- it really is a catch-all, as far as this particular search warrant, where we`re talking about. They ask for the moon and the stars. They ask for computers, basically, everything in the house. So really more than I think...
GRACE: Do you have a problem with that?
FOLEY: ... they`re really allowed. Yes, I think more than they`re really allowed in terms of...
GRACE: Well, a judge allowed it.
GRACE: A judge allowed it, Renee Rockwell. Are you saying the search warrant is too broad and is going to be struck down at a later hearing, Renee?
ROCKWELL: No, I don`t think it`s too broad, Nancy, but what if they would have taken pictures of her? What if there are individuals on the computer, maybe that they downloaded in the two days, and she can look at them and say, That`s the guy that did this. This is the guy.
And another thing you talk about, Nancy -- you can say anything you want to about the DNA and the sperm that`s collected. Somebody can say, I had sex with her consensually, she didn`t. But those fingernails have skin under them, and nobody`s going to be able to contest that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... time to demand the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want the members of the Duke lacrosse team to come clean!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They haven`t been convicted, but 30-something kids are remaining silent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am enraged and disgusted that -- and embarrassed that something like this has happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The Blue Devils! It may not be just a nickname at Duke University, the lacrosse team under fire, one of the most elite athletic teams in the university amidst allegations of gang rape.
Tonight, joining us a very special guest, Jennifer Minnelli, the neighbor of the lacrosse players` house. Well, it`s actually a house where several lacrosse players lived. Welcome, Jennifer. Have you had problems with these guys?
JENNIFER MINNELLI, NEIGHBOR OF HOUSE WHERE ALLEGED RAPE HAPPENED: Yes, we`ve had many problems with them in the past. These students have -- a small subset of students have caused a major public health nuisance within our community.
GRACE: In what way?
MINNELLI: In terms of garbage being left out on the lawn, date rape, alcohol poisoning, driving while intoxicated.
GRACE: Wait, wait! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa~! Hold on, Jennifer. Elizabeth, can I ask you -- let`s go to the Liz cam. Could you tell me what their good ranking athletically has to do with rape allegations? Don`t look away! We see you. OK. All right. Go ahead, Jennifer.
MINNELLI: Well, I was just saying that they -- generally, this small group of men have caused a major public health nuisance in our community.
GRACE: Of course, those are allegations. Question to you, Jennifer. Have you ever had to call police on them before?
MINNELLI: Several times.
MINNELLI: About noise and about public urination.
GRACE: That`s a nice thing to wake up to, seeing some guy out there in the yard, let me just say, taking a leak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... any setting and will not be tolerated at Duke -- are unacceptable in any setting and will not be tolerated at Duke. As none of us would choose to be the object of such conduct, so none of us has the right to subject another person to such conduct.
Since they run counter to such fundamental values, the claims against our players, if verified, would warrant very severe penalties, both from the university and in the courts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. The Duke lacrosse team under the microscope as allegations of gang rape are swirling. Let`s go straight out to the lines.
Christina in Tennessee, welcome, Christina.
CALLER: Thank you, Nancy. I just wanted to know that, due to the severity of the allegations, if the prosecution is successful with the actual perpetrators, what, if any, consequences would there be for persons who were actually on the premises but did not participate in the alleged crime, but also did nothing to intervene and stop it?
GRACE: You know what, Christina? You`re right on, because tonight we couldn`t -- Liz and I couldn`t decide. Do you want to do trial 101 on outcry or aiding and abetting?
To Renee Rockwell, there`s a big difference between standing by and doing nothing. There`s no duty in our jurisprudence to suggest you must be a good Samaritan; however, if it`s deemed you are aiding and abetting, you are -- let me just say -- up the creek without a paddle, Renee.
ROCKWELL: Absolutely. You are almost, Nancy, a coconspirator if you`re aiding and abetting. But let me tell you how crazy it is. You can stand there. You can watch it. You can approve of it, but if you`re not helping somebody, if you`re not holding her down, if you`re not holding the police away from the door, you`re not guilty of anything.
GRACE: Well, hold on.
What about it, David Foley? How about after the fact, aiding and abetting includes getting rid of evidence, trying to clear off computers, throwing things out?
Of course, this is kind of sloppy. The fake nails were still there in the bathroom, allegedly. The phone, all of that was there. Let`s just say they`re not very good housekeepers, Dave Foley.
FOLEY: Most frat boys aren`t, in terms of kids playing sports.
GRACE: These are not kids!
FOLEY: I`m kind of surprised that that neighbor had problems living next to them, huh? That usually happens.
GRACE: Why do you keep saying kids? Why do you keep saying -- are you trying to soften it in some way? These are young men. These are young men at a very expensive institution on one of the best athletic teams there. They`ve got every type of privilege that can be known to someone at that age.
Why do you keep playing softball and calling them children?
FOLEY: Well, because, I mean, listen to what you`ve heard, in terms - - the house is probably a pig sty. So they get up and go to school and knock a ball around. That`s the extent of their lives. They`re not adults.
GRACE: Yes, OK, take it to a jury, friend. Take a listen to what the defense attorney has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not accused anybody of committing this rape; I do believe that a sexual assault occurred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does not have all of the facts, and yet he is out there saying, not just that three of the boys are guilty, but they`re all guilty as aiders and abettors.
A lynch mob is a lynch mob, no matter what its reasons. And when the lynch mob is being led by authorities, it`s really frightening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go to the executive director of the North Carolina Coalition Against Sex Assault, Monika Johnson-Hostler.
Welcome. Thank you for being with us.
The notes from the rape counselor, I`m concerned about that. Remember, in the Kobe Bryant case, all the notes from the rape crisis counselor were turned over to the defense. Do you think they`ll be privileged in this case?
MONIKA JOHNSON-HOSTLER, NC COALITION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT: At this point, Nancy, I do. Unfortunately, we can`t disclose if this young woman has gone to a local rape crisis center. However, in the state of North Carolina, we do have qualified privilege communications.
GRACE: Well, I believe, Monika, that the -- Naomi, was it the district attorney said her behavior...
GRACE: ... and statements or outcry was consistent with her being a rape victim?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Well, did he say to a rape crisis counselor? Monika may be right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (OFF-MIKE)
GRACE: OK. We don`t know. You`re right, Monika, whether it was a nurse or a rape crisis counselor. Go ahead, Monika.
JOHNSON-HOSTLER: Right, we have sexual assault nurse examiners in North Carolina and in this area, so...
GRACE: What`s the difference between that and a regular nurse?
JOHNSON-HOSTLER: They have gone through -- in North Carolina, we have a 40-hour training specific to evidence collection, understanding the law. And then they also have 56 hours of actual didactical on-the-job training.
GRACE: What`s didactical?
JOHNSON-HOSTLER: Basically, they have to do several hours of pelvics. They have to meet with their local law enforcement, their local prosecutor`s office. They also meet with defense attorneys, sex offender treatment providers. They have a host of people that they meet with that we would consider first responders.
GRACE: So they have specialized as nurses in dealing with...
GRACE: ... rape victims. OK.
GRACE: So all of that will be used by the prosecution.
I`m going to go to Serena Sebring, a graduate student there at Duke. She has organized campus protests.
Serena, welcome. Thank you for being with us. Why the protest? And what is the reputation of the lacrosse players there amongst the student body?
SERENA SEBRING, DUKE STUDENT: Well, I think the protests, in my opinion, are mostly geared at getting an appropriate and effective university and administrative response to this.
At this point, there are several things that are not being addressed by the administration. And as a Duke student, I feel that that`s inappropriate.
For instance, they`re not addressing the things that have been admitted, such as the racial epithets that were used, such as the clear evidence of some sort of an assault having happened. And as a woman on Duke campus, I feel that my safety is not a priority. And I think that...
GRACE: Why are these people banging pots and pans, Ms. Serena?
SEBRING: I think we`re all just trying to make noise as loudly as possible until administers respond to our cries, that they hear our demand for some attention to our safety and some accountability to this community.
GRACE: Tell me, Serena Sebring, where was that protest where everybody was banging on pots and pans?
SEBRING: That was just out front of the house where this occurred, which is at 610 Buchanan, which is just adjacent to the Duke University east campus.
GRACE: What was the result after the pots-and-pans protest?
SEBRING: There was no response officially by the administration to the pots-and-pans protest, but I think it was effective in raising public awareness and in drawing media response, which hopefully will put more pressure on the administrative to take some sort of action.
GRACE: Serena, I`m not saying it is or is not. I`m asking you: Do you think -- does it appear the administration is more concerned about the athletic teams or the lady students at Duke?
SEBRING: I would strongly agree with the statement -- well, I would say that, yes, they are more concerned -- their statements have been exclusively concerned with the legalities and the lacrosse season and have not addressed -- have not told us -- we weren`t even made aware by the administration that this attack had occurred; we heard from the local media.
GRACE: You know what? Lacrosse team aside, every woman on that campus deserves to know these allegations have happened. That`s just like an attack going down in a parking lot, and you don`t tell the student body. And ladies, young ladies continue to go back and forth every night just...
SEBRING: Absolutely. And they have been forthright in the past with notifying people of public safety issues, such as when burglaries have happened on campus and in the surrounding areas. They alert us to public safety problems, and this is certainly a public safety problem.
GRACE: To clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders, Dr. Saunders, in an earlier sound bite, we heard one of the administrators say -- or it may have been the defense attorney -- say, "What if these boys were your sons?"
What if this girl -- I mean, of course, I wouldn`t be happy if she was a stripper if I was her mother, but forget about that. What if this girl was your girl? You know, I`d burn the place down, for Pete`s sake!
DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that statement really reveals some of the underlying prejudice, and elitism, and classism, as well as probable racism, that, what if these were your boys, as if the boys were the ones who mattered and not the young woman.
This is outrageous, Nancy. By the way, Kevin Miller said earlier that the young lady, the dancer, became uncomfortable and left the party. Well, she became uncomfortable because one of the players, she reported, brought out a broom and threatened to you-know-what her with it.
GRACE: OK, allegations only. That has not been confirmed.
Well, first of all, Dr. Saunders, I would be, you know, uncomfortable in a house full of lacrosse players, you know, taking my clothes off. But that`s a whole another can of worms. The defense can have a field day with that.
But, yes, I had read of that alleged earlier threat. And according to these documents, press releases, the girl left the apartment and the players convinced her to come back in and finish her dancing.
You know, back to Dr. Kobilinsky, Dr. Kobilinsky, once again, at best you`re going to get a mixture of DNA, if there were multiple attackers. What if the perps wore condoms?
KOBILINSKY: That`s a good question, Nancy. Generally speaking, laboratories are set up to monitor condom lubricants.
The question in my mind is: Did the victim talk about her assailants` using a condom or not? I haven`t heard anything about condoms being found at the scene.
GRACE: I haven`t either. So the best they can hope for is, for evidence purposes, is the lubricant on the condom.
To Serena Sebring, a graduate student at Duke, how are the women there responding to this?
SEBRING: I mean, people are have different responses, but one thing that I`m consistently hearing is that people want more accountability from the administration for the sexual and racial nature of this crime.
GRACE: And very quickly to you, Clark Goldband, what`s the public reaction?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, on the blogs, there is a tremendous sense of outrage. We have some blog entries here.
"And as a Duke alum of `01, I am horrified by this story." And if we fast-forward down to the end, "It was only a matter of time until something like this happened." Nancy, similar sentiments on different blogs.
We`re also seeing, "You know what? I love Duke. Maybe their parents can`t bail them out this time." The sentiment is the parents have always helped these kids. I don`t know how they`ll help them this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a small west bank apartment, these Muslim women say they are living in fear. They`re the relatives of 42-year-old Iman Muhanna Mohammed, the teacher from the Gaza Strip brutally stabbed to death last Friday at her Metairie home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were signs of a struggle within the house in the immediate bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff Lee also said Iman was stabbed 33 times. He said there was no forced entry into the home and nothing was stolen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A killer walking the streets in Metairie, Louisiana. Tonight, we go for answers. This young woman, soon to be a mother again, stabbed 33 times in her own home.
Let`s go straight out to CNN reporter Sean Callebs. Sean Callebs, give me the facts and tell me why there has been so little interest in this case.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don`t know about the little interest, but certainly it is a case now that the Jefferson Perish sheriff`s office says is a case that has simply gone cold. They say there has been no movement in this case.
It actually dates back to December 17th of 2004. Now, at 11:14, Fakhri Mohammed, he is the husband of the victim. And we just heard about her, Iman Muhanna Mohammed.
When Fakhri Mohammed came home, he had been taking their children to school. When he got back, just after 11:00 in the morning, he called the sheriff`s office and said he had found simply a gruesome scene.
The victim had been stabbed, as you heard, 33 times. Now, the authorities came over, investigated, and, as they do, Nancy, as you know, in these kind of cases, of course, they talked to Fakhri Mohammed. They wanted to know where he was, if he had an alibi, if he had any reason -- if there was any reason to suspect he could be involved in this case. Now, authorities tell us that he was quickly absolved as a suspect.
CALLEBS: And from then on out, there`s been a number of -- there`s been a lot of interest in the case. There`s a reward now for $45,000. But still absolutely no motive and no suspect to this day.
GRACE: To Sheriff Harry Lee, a special guest joining us tonight, thank you for being with us. Where does the investigation stand now?
SHERIFF HARRY LEE, JEFFERSON PARISH: Exactly the way Sean told you. There are no leads. Earlier this afternoon, the detectives told me that the husband probably went back to Pakistan, but other than that...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, why would the husband leave and go back to Pakistan?
LEE: That`s where he`s from, and that`s where she is from.
GRACE: But weren`t they living there in Louisiana?
LEE: Palestine, I`m sorry.
GRACE: But weren`t they living there in Louisiana?
LEE: They were living in Louisiana, and she was from Palestine. He was married previously, divorced his American wife, and went back to Palestine and married his second wife, the victim in this particular case. We just found out that the husband may have been back there.
There was some interest by the FBI earlier on in the case because the victim`s sister`s husband was under house arrest in the D.C. area because he was suspected of funneling money back to the terrorist group in Palestine, but we checked all of that out and there was no connection whatsoever with terrorism...
GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. Before we get into international terrorism, Sheriff, Sheriff, Sheriff, how did you clear the husband?
LEE: He gave us his story. We checked his time line, everything he said he did. We were able to go back and check it, and he did exactly what he said he did the whole time, from the morning from the time he left home to the time he got back...
GRACE: But how do you know what time?
LEE: And when he got home, the door was locked.
GRACE: How do you know what time she was killed?
LEE: He walked in, he found blood on the ground floor. And when he went upstairs, he found his wife lying dead in a pool of blood in her own bed.
GRACE: Sheriff, Sheriff, how do we know on what time she was killed?
LEE: No, that time wasn`t determined.
GRACE: Well, then how do you know his alibi fit, if you don`t know what time she was killed?
LEE: Because we know what time he left. And he left his children with the house, and they all left together. So he left -- he went to work, picked up a passenger. We checked it out.
He (INAUDIBLE) dropped him off. We actually interviewed the passenger. He picked up his kids, took them to school, came back, and dropped them off, and was going to pick up his wife, and as we came -- we have no reason to suspect the husband.
GRACE: Let`s go to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. What`s your take? No forced entry, no sex assault, nothing stolen.
SAUNDERS: It`s the 33 stab wounds that`s really kind of alarming. That`s an intimate and rageful act.
There was also a report or an allegation that the covers were pulled up around just up to her neck so her body was covered. That, I don`t know what it means. It could be just covering up the blood. It could be a ritual. It could have modesty meaning.
But the feeling I get is that this is up close and personal, somebody who knew her.
GRACE: Everyone, we are going to a very quick break. As we go to break, tonight, we are mourning, mourning the loss and remembering a fellow crime fighter and victims` rights advocate Lisa Gordon Dawson, stabbed to death March 22 in her own bedroom. She was a community activist, a domestic violence counselor, and a victims` service officer for Clayton County solicitor`s office, Georgia.
Lisa died at the hands of the very violence she fought against. A special Lisa Gordon Dawson Memorial Fund set up, Bank of America. Tonight, we remember one of our own.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And, remember, next week, live coverage, Milwaukee police on trial for civilian assault, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Please stay with us as we remember Army Sergeant David L. Herrera, 26, Oceanside, California. Herrera killed by a roadside bomb, Iraq. He joined the Army in 1998. Tonight, he is survived by a wife and two young daughters. David L. Herrera, an American hero.
GRACE: Tonight, my producers came up with a special package for April Fool`s. I haven`t seen it yet. The joke may be on me. Roll it, Liz.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What? What is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s Grace Nancy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I`m so sorry, your honor, I never meant to hold you up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grace Nancy is the prosecutor? I`m doomed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not that bad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she killed her husband, and she was saying that the nine children that she left behind needed her. I fixed her a wagon. She`s getting a legal injection tomorrow morning first thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy`s Grace looming up. Nancy`s Grace now into second.
GRACE: They get a mouthful of this, all knuckle, no mayo, pronto.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy`s Grace still running a bit erratically. Nancy`s Grace on the outside gaining little by little. Nancy`s Grace on the outside trying to get -- photo, Nancy`s Grace.
GRACE: Denial, it ain`t just a river in Egypt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your mother couldn`t be bothered to tell you the truth, so you ended up having sex with your half-brother.
GRACE: We did the DNA test. It matches you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please don`t keep the court waiting. Yes, I had sex with my own brother.
GRACE: Is there a possibility Mommy did some laundry? Did Mommy wash some dirty bloody clothes? Ooh, ooh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s never lost a case.
GRACE: You might as well open up the window and scream out, "I hire hookers! I go online to porn sites!"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Say, do you get Larry King? Nancy Grace is on tonight.
Can you believe it`s already Friday? Thank you to all of my guests. But most all to you for being with us and inviting us and our crazy staff into your homes.
A special good night from the floor here from Dean, Clark and Naomi, and from Liz and the whole staff in the control room, and our sound man, Jody Freeman (ph), who`s performing with his band tomorrow night, the Knitting Factory here in New York. Go crazy.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp. Good night, friend.