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Nancy Grace

New Jersey College Freshman Missing; Moussaoui Eligible for Death Penalty

Aired April 03, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a 19-year-old college freshman disappears from a college dorm room in the middle of the night -- honor student, track star, scholarships out the wazoo, the works. The only clue tonight, blood on a trash dumpster outside the dorm.
Also tonight, a federal jury says Zacarias Moussaoui is eligible for the death penalty. And till death do us part: When did murder become the alternative to divorce?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, boy plus girl equals murder. Spouses accused of killing -- it`s an epidemic. Think Scott Peterson, Clara Harris, Lynn Turner (ph). And what about Mark Hacking, the accused O.J. Simpson and Robert Blake?

But first tonight, the search intensifies for a 19-year-old freshman who vanished from a college dorm after an off-campus party. Today, investigators sift through garbage at two huge Pennsylvania landfills after DNA confirms blood found in and around a campus dumpster.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our most important responsibility is to find out what happened to Mr. John Fiocco.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No matter what happens, forgive anybody who was involved, if anything becomes of this because who knows what the hell could be going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this juncture, you have no body. You have no person. You have blood that has been confirmed to be that of John Fiocco.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re bringing to bear every resource at our disposal and other agencies to find out exactly what happened to Mr. Fiocco.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is a kid scrubbed in sunshine. Scholarships, track team, president of student council -- you name it, he`s got it. Where is he?

Straight out to Martin DiCaro, reporter with New Jersey 101.5 WKXW. Martin, what`s going on?

MARTIN DICARO, WKXW RADIO, NEW JERSEY: Well, today, there was a third day of searching at that landfill in Pennsylvania, and it again proved fruitless and rather painstaking. Multiple high-level police sources have told us that they are growing increasing discouraged at their lack of progress in finding John Fiocco`s remains, and they`re growing increasingly concerned about the possible state of his remains.

There is some other new information that came out today, as well, that we learned. In addition to the large amount of blood they found in the dumpster last Monday -- they confirmed it on Thursday night -- they also found John`s wallet. There`s also additional forensic evidence they`re waiting for test results on. Police, however, will not say what this evidence is or where the evidence was found.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at the timeline, the young man last seen in the dorm, that`s a freshman dorm, Wolfe dorm. He seemed to be drunk. He had been drinking that night at a party where a lot of swim team competitors were. Then we have 3:00 PM -- boy, that`s quite a lag time! -- Matt Owen, the roommate, reports him missing.

But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Martin, what happened between 3:00 AM and 3:00 PM? You go to sleep with somebody crashing on your dorm bed or your dorm sofa. You wake up, they`re gone. Their shoes are there. Ding, ding! What`s the disconnect?

DICARO: Well, his friends have said he appeared fine. He was just out at a party, appeared drunk, fell asleep in a room down the hall. They woke up, he wasn`t there. His friends assumed that John`s out on his own. They called, though, the next day, 36 hours later, telling the school that John was missing. The school then vetted this information on its own for a day because...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! "Vetted the information" on its own for a day? While this kid could still be alive in that dumpster, they sat on their thumb and twirled for a day? Wait! What do you mean "vetted"?

DICARO: Well, they may have tried to ascertain exactly what was going on. They thought maybe it`s John just on his own, that he would show up the next day. When he didn`t show up on Monday, that`s when they called the New Jersey state police, the Mercer County prosecutor`s office. And the police immediately arrived on campus. Shortly after arriving, they found a large amount of blood in his dumpster. And they may have missed his body by just a few hours...

GRACE: Oh! Oh! Oh!

DICARO: ... because as soon as they found the blood...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! To Tim Miller with Equusearch. Tim, did you hear that?

TIM MILLER, DIR., TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I heard it, Nancy.

GRACE: the kid may have been in the dumpster, and while the campus police went, Hmm, what should we do? What should we do, the trash was dumped and is being compacted, is my understanding. Tim?

MILLER: Yes?

GRACE: Thoughts.

MILLER: I don`t understand it, neither, Nancy. I mean, he`s 19 years old. I mean, we get so many -- 800,000 missing persons cases a year. But there`s so many things going on on our campuses and our children today at college and different places that -- I can`t believe it.

GRACE: The lag time -- back to Martin DiCaro with New Jersey`s 101.5 WKXW. Let me finish the timeline. Liz, can you put the timeline up, please? So he goes to sleep around 3:00 AM after a party. At 3:00 PM, the friends go, OK, where is he? Let`s report him to campus security.

DICARO: And then after that, campus security, the state -- the College of New Jersey, went over the information. They figured it was just a college student who was out on his own. When he didn`t arrive the next day, that`s when state police, Mercer County prosecutor`s office got involved. They arrived on campus, and their investigation began in earnest one week ago, at around noon on Monday. And shortly after their investigation began, they found the blood, large amount of blood, and his wallet in the dumpster. They immediately sought to find out where that trash had been taken.

GRACE: Hold on. Question. Martin...

DICARO: Yes?

GRACE: ... you said a large amount of blood in the dumpster? Because the words I heard were in and around the dumpster.

DICARO: Yes, in and around the dumpster. Yes.

GRACE: See, that`s very, very important. Liz, do we have Dr. Kobilinsky yet? Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, I don`t know if you just heard this.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I did.

GRACE: But we`ve got Martin DiCaro with us with WKXW. And there`s a very big subtle but important difference in blood in the dumpster -- and Martin, isn`t this the dumpster that the trash chute there near the dorm room goes down into the dumpster, right?

DICARO: The trash chute empties onto a platform. A robotic eye will notice that garbage just landed on there, and a hydraulic arm pushes the trash then into a dumpster. It is possible to dump something into that dumpster without throwing it down the chute.

GRACE: This is the dumpster -- thank you, Elizabeth. There is the dumpster where the blood is found. OK. So for instance, any of you people that live in a high rise or in an apartment building, you go to your trash chute, you throw something down it. You throw the milk carton down it. This is the dumpster where that trash lands.

OK, Dr. Kobilinsky, subtle but important difference...

KOBILINSKY: It`s very...

GRACE: ... between blood in the dumpster and blood in and around the dumpster because if he was sent down the trash chute, there would not be blood on the outside of the dumpster.

KOBILINSKY: well, actually, I think, putting the pieces together, he was pushed down the chute head first. He hit the ground -- this is four stories below...

GRACE: Oh!

KOBILINSKY: ... hit the ground head first, and this mechanical arm pushed the body into the dumpster. So my hunch is that there is blood around the dumpster, at that site where he hit head first.

GRACE: But how could there be blood on the outside of the dumpster, Koby (ph)?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I`m talking about...

GRACE: If he had gone down the chute?

KOBILINSKY: Before the body was pushed into the dumpster, it was on a platform, and that`s what they mean by around the dumpster. I do not believe that...

GRACE: Ahh! I got you.

KOBILINSKY: That`s right. I don`t...

GRACE: So you don`t think...

KOBILINSKY: I don`t think he got out of the dumpster. He did not get out. I don`t think so.

GRACE: So you`re -- you`re taking -- you`re being a semanticist.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I am, indeed. That`s the most critical...

GRACE: So you`re saying blood in and around means in the dumpster and possibly on the platform. When I heard "in and around," I took it to mean in the dumpster and around the outside of the dumpster.

KOBILINSKY: Well, Nancy, that would imply that he got out, and I don`t think he was conscious.

GRACE: Well, I thought possibly it meant he was thrown in the dumpster from outside the dumpster, like pushed over the top, and blood got on the outside and then the inside.

KOBILINSKY: That`s another possibility. But the bottom line is, it`s foul play. He didn`t jump into that dumpster. Somebody pushed him down the chute, and he ended up in that dumpster unconscious.

GRACE: Elizabeth, can you show a picture of John? Student council -- Ellie, wasn`t he student council president?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe he`s the president, but he was on student council in high school, and National Honor Society.

GRACE: National Honor Society. He was 11th in his class of how many, Ellie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it was 303 students.

GRACE: So 11 out of 303, on the football team, the track team, great grades. Was he on the swim team?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. I don`t believe so.

GRACE: Long story short, this guy has scholarships. I mean, this is the kid everybody wants to have. Here`s what his father had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... no matter what happens, to forgive anybody who was involved, if anything becomes of this, because who knows what the hell could be going on. Pray for my wife and my children, that my wife does not change. She`s the most positive person I`ve ever met in my life, and I don`t want her to change because of something that happened. Please, don`t let her change a thing about herself. Pray for my children. And thanks for all the prayers, everybody out there. And people that never prayed before that started praying now, keep it up. God bless you all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this juncture, all you have, OK -- you have no body. You have no person. You have blood that has been confirmed to be that of John Fiocco. Anybody who`s drawing conclusions from that or speculating on their own, we don`t know the basis of how the blood got into the dumpster. You know, this is not a homicide case investigation, at this juncture. We do not know exactly what happened to John Fiocco.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To criminal profiler Pat Brown. Is he crazy?

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I mean, the kid`s been gone since Saturday. I mean, look, OK, it`s Monday night. You`ve got blood all over a dumpster. It`s not a homicide case? What is it?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I think he`s just using a technicality because he doesn`t have a body yet, an absolute proof of what happened.

But I want to talk about the actual crime scene issue. This is a nightmare of a crime scene. You`ve got the dumpster crime scene and the landfill crime scene. And talk about contamination. Almost -- you`ve got thousands and thousands of pieces of physical evidence, which you have no idea if they match, anything to do with the crime and all -- it`ll contaminate everything to do with the crime. So hopefully, they`ll find some other location where there`s going to be some evidence or some people who are going to start talking.

GRACE: With us a special guest, Judy Archibald. She`s a spokesperson for Waste Management, the owners at the Tullytown landfill. Judy, I guess when you got into the landfill business, you never thought you`d be part of a missing persons/homicide investigation. Thank you for being with us. Miss Archibald, describe the search, the search site, the landfill for me.

JUDY ARCHIBALD, SPOKESWOMAN, WASTE MANAGEMENT: Well, the current area that is being investigated is an approximate one-acre size and a depth of about 20 feet.

GRACE: Whew!

ARCHIBALD: And there`s been a very aggressive effort by the authorities. The team of investigators oversees the excavation area, and one bucket at a time, the excavator places -- dumps the waste into a dump truck as the operator visually scans the contents. The dump truck then moves and is off-loaded in a second area, where the contents are carefully searched and thoroughly reexamined by other members of the investigative team.

GRACE: So they`re looking at it visually and then going through it by hand?

ARCHIBALD: That`s correct.

GRACE: Gosh! A full acre, 20 feet tall. To Judy Archibald, spokesperson with Waste Management. They own this landfill. Miss Archibald, how long does the trash sit there until it gets compacted?

ARCHIBALD: The landfill receives the trash at a scale house, and from the scale house, the truck goes up to the area that`s known as the working phase (ph) or the area that is being -- the trash is being disposed of that day. At the time that the trash is disposed, it is compacted throughout the day, and then at the end of the day, covered with six inches of soil or an alternate cover material.

GRACE: When are you going to start looking through the compacted trash?

ARCHIBALD: That is what they`re looking through.

GRACE: Oh, so they`re not just going through the landfill. I get it. Thank you, Judy.

ARCHIBALD: The landfill -- the landfill is the compacted trash. That`s how a landfill is constructed.

GRACE: Gotcha. I understand. You know what, Judy? I thought the landfill was just where you take the trash. But you`re telling me the landfill`s where the already compacted trash is.

ARCHIBALD: That`s correct.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. How tough is this going to be?

KOBILINSKY: It`s really, truly a nightmare. First you have to find the body, and then you have to recognize the body because these compactors are hydraulically operated, and I believe that they will fracture bones and make the body somewhat unrecognizable. This is not going to be an easy task.

GRACE: To our producer, Steph Watts. He`s there at the landfill search. He`s been there all day long while people were searching. Steph, describe for everybody what you have seen today.

STEPH WATTS, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this is a facility unlike any other facility. It`s extremely, extremely high-tech. And as Judy was telling you, they actually have focused from an acre down to a quarter-acre area. They have a very sophisticated GPS system. So when the truck enters it, they know exactly where that garbage went. So from the time it left the school, where I`m at now, to the time it arrives at the landfill site, they know exactly approximately where it is.

Also, Nancy, you need to understand it was compacted here, it was also compacted on the site, as you just said. So they`re going to be looking for, I think, fragments of a body, at this point.

GRACE: Steph, you`ve been there all day. When you heard the words "blood in and around the dumpster," is it in the dumpster and on the outside of the dumpster, or as Dr. Kobilinsky says, in the dumpster and then on the platform?

WATTS: From what I understand -- and I`m not 100 percent sure because I did just actually go back there, Nancy -- it looks like to me that it was on the dumpster and on the platform. It`s hard to tell because there`s still police security around there and I couldn`t get up really close, but I saw them coming and going with different dumpsters.

GRACE: We`ll go straight back out to Steph Watts, our producer there. He has been monitoring the landfill search all day long, has been on campus, in the dorm, trying to find out what he can. The search for this boy growing desperate, an honor student. All we have left of him right now is blood in a dumpster outside his dorm.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracker." More on terrorist Moussaoui. The jury in the Zacarias Moussaoui case ruled admitted al Qaeda terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui is eligible for the federal death penalty. Now on to phase two. That same jury will decide if Moussaoui faces execution or life. Moussaoui actually testified he knew the World Trade Center was a terrorist target and that he himself planned to pilot a fifth plane as a weapon into our country`s White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. A 19-year-old student missing, all that is left is a trace of blood. To our producer, Clark Goldband. Student drinking -- give me the ages and the stats.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, Nancy, you told me this afternoon to find out about college drinking. I could not believe how prevalent it really is. First we checked out the top five party schools. Number five is at SUNY, that`s at Albany in New York. Fourth is the University of California at Santa Barbara. Lehigh university is third. Ohio University at Athens second. And University of Wisconsin is the number one party school. There you have it.

Now, Nancy, these stats mind-blowing. And I want to know when someone is going to say this is crazy. When are we going to stop with the college drinking? One thousand seven hundred students between the age of 18 and 24 die every year from alcohol, Nancy, 1,700. Almost 600,000 students are injured every year from alcohol. And get this, 1.2 over to 1.5 percent of students attempt suicide because of drinking or drugs. Nancy, it`s out of control.

GRACE: So those are years 18 to 24, correct?

GOLDBAND: Yes, 18 to 24.

GRACE: And the legal age to drink?

GOLDBAND: Is 21.

GRACE: All across the country?

GOLDBAND: Across all 50 states, Nancy. Three years.

GRACE: Back to Steph Watts, who`s standing by at the landfill search. Steph, you mentioned something about GPS?

WATTS: Yes. Judy was explaining to me that it`s a very sophisticated system there. When the trucks come into the landfill center, they have a GPS system, which tells them exactly where that truck is dumped. So that`s how they were able to quickly figure out where they believe that the body is. You probably remember the Lori Hacking case, where they dug for a long, long time before they found Lori. They`re very, very confident they`re going to find this young man very, very soon because of the very sophisticated that they have.

GRACE: But it`s already being compacted, Steph.

WATTS: Yes, I understand that. They compacted it down, but they believe they know the area. That`s why they`re siphoning by hand very, very carefully...

GRACE: How many workers...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: How many workers?

WATTS: Today I understand there was about 50. They`ve got volunteers from the police department. They have CSI people, and Judy`s staff, as well, is helping out because...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Have they brought in dogs yet?

WATTS: The police said that there was no dogs, but Judy confirmed with me today that there was one dog there, Nancy.

GRACE: A quick break. Let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." American journalist Jill Carroll emotional today at the newsroom of "The Christian Science Monitor" on her first full day back. Her editor offers a glimpse into the U.S. government`s role in her release after 82 long days in terrorist captivity, Carroll abducted by Iraqi militants in Baghdad, January 7.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL CARROLL, "CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": It`s overwhelming, the work that went into this and the trouble everyone went to for me, a lowly freelancer! You know, who am I? It`s like a family. And so I just wanted to say how much -- I`m overwhelmed by how wonderful the paper has been to my family and everyone! (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators are following a trail of blood and trash in their search for missing College of New Jersey freshman John Fiocco. Police confirm that blood found in and around a campus dumpster is Fiocco`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a homicide case investigation, at this juncture. We do not know exactly what happened to John Fiocco.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. The search intensifies for a 19-year-old young man, honor student, scholarships, track team, football star, you name it. Blood found in and around the dumpster that leads to the trash chute in his dorm.

To Ashley Marty and Kelly Miesburger, managing editor and editor-in- chief of "The Signal." That`s the student newspaper. Tell me about the dorm situation. This was Wolfe dorm. Is that the freshman dorm, Ashley?

ASHLEY MARTY, MANAGING EDITOR, "THE SIGNAL," STUDENT NEWSPAPER: Wolfe dorm is a freshman dorm. It`s connected to Travers (ph). They`re the two towers. It`s all freshman, other than the community advisers, which some colleges call RAs. We call them CAs. So that`s how the dorm is. There`s ten floors for each of them, and they`re connected on the first floor. So Wolfe is 10 floors high.

GRACE: To Kelly Miesburger. Kelly, the trash chute on each floor would go straight down to this dumpster, correct?

KELLY MIESBURGER, "THE SIGNAL" STUDENT NEWSPAPER: As far as I know. I`ve really never seen the bottom of it. But what the police said at the press conference was that it`s a 24-by-24-inch opening that opens up to three feet, and it goes straight down to the platform.

GRACE: Does everyone, Ashley, go in and out of the dorm rooms? Do people generally keep their dorm rooms locked at night?

MARTY: I mean, to be honest with you, like, Kelly and I both lived there freshman year, and during the day, I know my dorm room was always unlocked because you go in and you go out. And it`s your community. Those are your friends. It`s like your family at college. So I mean, to keep your dorm room unlocked at night isn`t the most insane thing I`ve ever heard, and I think that`s basically at every college I know. I mean, not saying we wouldn`t always -- we wouldn`t leave -- we wouldn`t leave our doors unlocked all the time, but it wouldn`t -- it`s not unheard of.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m tremendously concerned to learn of the public confirmation by law enforcement agencies that recovered blood is that of John Fiocco, Jr. And I am compelled to acknowledge that this is ominous and extremely disheartening news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it really makes me really nervous, you know, to know that maybe something definitely happened to him and to know that it was his blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for all of the prayers, everybody out there, and people that never prayed before and they started praying now, keep it up. God bless us all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 19-year-old college student is missing. The only trace: blood on a dumpster.

To Stacey Richmond, veteran trial lawyer, what should be done on the inside of the dorm, as far as the investigation?

STACEY RICHMOND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m sure that the police are doing a very thorough job. They`re going to be probably be looking into who were this boy`s friends, who were his enemies, perhaps, what was going on with him psychologically.

I`m sure that they`ve established a perimeter and have started to interview everybody within that dorm and everybody around him. Did he have a girlfriend? Was somebody jealous of him? All of these things are relevant because, who, if this is potentially a homicide, who would want to do anything to this young man?

GRACE: To trial lawyer Jeff Weiner, Jeff, what about it? What should police be doing inside the dormitory right now?

JEFFREY S. WEINER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree. They`ve got to talk to everybody. But, you know, I want to go back to a point, if you don`t mind, Nancy, where one of the experts on earlier opined that this fellow`s body somehow went down the chute.

To my way of thinking, having handled many, many cases like this, there would be evidence, at this point, DNA, blood, or something else near the entranceway or down the chute. So I`m not convinced that his body was down the chute.

I know that you were upset when that fellow said it`s not a homicide investigation. Of course, it should be, but we don`t know for a fact that he`s deceased. And I think pounding the pavement, talking to people, employees at the college, virtually everyone around, needs to be done.

GRACE: We don`t know whether he`s deceased? Well, what do you believe has happened to him?

WEINER: I have no idea what happened for sure, and it`s got to be treated as a homicide, but there are a lot of unanswered questions at this point.

GRACE: Well, you know what? It`s simple trial 101, everybody, this theory that, with no case -- no body, no case, absolutely incorrect.

Back to you, Stacey Richmond. There have been many cases prosecuted without a body. The fact -- I mean, to me that`s even more indicative. You`ve got blood in this location. This kid hasn`t been seen or heard from since Saturday. Why are they kidding themselves that this is not a homicide investigation?

RICHMOND: Well, you know, it could be that they`re trying to be kind to the family and there could be a question of whether or not it may not be a homicide, per se, or perhaps an accident befell him. I mean, you just went through all the statistics with college drinking, what goes on in college campuses. This could be a truly horrible accident.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the phones.

Tanya in Georgia. Welcome, Tanya.

CALLER: Hey, Nancy.

GRACE: Hey, dear.

CALLER: First of all, I want to say I love your show and I watch it every night.

GRACE: Thank you, love.

CALLER: OK. My question is about the college students.

GRACE: Hope my bosses were listening. Go ahead.

CALLER: OK. Has the police questioned his friend that was at the party or his roommate?

GRACE: To Steph Watts, what about it? Have police questioned -- he was sleeping in somebody else`s dorm room, right, Steph?

WATTS: That`s what I understand. Nothing has been confirmed, Nance. This place is tight as a drum. I try to get close to the dorm, there`s security around everywhere. They won`t let us near, you know, within a mile of that place. I was sneaking around trying to get back to the dumpster.

But I`m sure that they`re doing an extremely thorough investigation. I know right now everything is focused on the dumpster.

GRACE: OK.

To Martin DiCaro with WKXW, it`s my understanding he was sleeping in somebody else`s dorm room after a party where there was drinking, yes, no?

DICARO: Yes.

GRACE: Why did he sleep in somebody else`s dorm room, not that that even matters?

DICARO: His friends would only know that, the answer to that question. His friends have been interviewed by police.

The issue was just brought up, you know, have the police been to the dorm? The police have said that they have searched and interviewed that dorm from top to bottom.

Matter of fact, last Thursday night, they evacuated both Travers and Wolf Hall (ph), the two 10-story dorms where the freshmen live, and they scoured the place, cadaver dogs, interviewed every single resident. That`s what police are saying, interviewed every single resident in those towers, and also interviewed people who were at the party where John was.

GRACE: So in answer to Tanya`s question, yes, yes and yes, they`ve talked to people at the party, they`ve talked to roommates, and they`ve talked to people in the dorm. I agree, Tanya. Point one: Interview who he was with at 3:00 a.m., the last thing they saw.

And, Martin, isn`t it true that his shoes were still sitting there at the bed?

DICARO: Yes. Excuse me. Did you did say shoes in the dumpster?

GRACE: No, in the bed. Weren`t they in the dorm room, the shoes?

DICARO: Yes.

GRACE: OK.

Let`s go out to the phones. Ahmad in Texas, welcome, Ahmad.

CALLER: Hello, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

CALLER: How are you? I just want to say I love your show, and thank you for everything you do for us.

GRACE: Thanks.

CALLER: I just want to say a quick question. What took the campus police so long to investigation the initial student missing? And would this positively have changed if the student with a female?

GRACE: Oh, you know, Ahmad, you`re stirring the pot, because that was my first question, Ahmad.

Let`s throw that back to Martin. Martin, student police, student campus police sat on this for a full day before reporting it to police, real police, OK? And do you think it would be any different if it was a girl, maybe?

DICARO: Well, I don`t want to speculate on that, Nancy, but the state police in New Jersey are not second-guessing the college`s decision to wait a full day before contacting them to arrive on campus.

GRACE: Let`s go to Chris in Pennsylvania. Chris, welcome.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

CALLER: I was just wondering, aren`t there any suspects in the dorm or do the police think that this may be related to a college prank that went bad?

GRACE: Hmm, I don`t know how much of a legal defense that is. I`ve been thinking the same thing, to Chris in Pennsylvania.

To Jeff Weiner, say, "I was just kidding when I threw him down the trash chute"?

WEINER: Well, you know, Nancy, at this point, it`s pure speculation. Of course...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, look, we all know it`s speculation, OK? Nobody has found his body. We don`t know what happened yet. But you know what? We`re humans. We`ve got the biggest brain in the universe, allegedly. So let`s use it, OK? If this were a prank, would that be a defense?

WEINER: No, of course it`s not a defense. But it depends on -- first of all, is it a prank? Is it an accident? Is it a lot of drinking that results in horrible things happening like we see every day, especially kids of this age that get violent? A lot of people change when they have alcohol and they go from being...

GRACE: OK.

WEINER: ... very polite and docile, you know.

GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, what would you want to know right now?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I would want to know if there`s any hazing. And I`m very concerned that so much drinking is going on in this college campus, because that can lead to dangerous things happening. I don`t get the sense that it`s an outsider. Whatever went on, it sounds like...

GRACE: Wasn`t it 10th floor, Steph? Wasn`t he on the 10th floor?

WATTS: I`m sorry; I didn`t hear the question.

GRACE: Tenth floor? What floor was he on?

WATTS: Yes, I believe it was the fourth floor, Nancy. It was the fourth floor.

GRACE: Yes, you`d have to get in, go up the elevator...

LUDWIG: It just sounds like, you know, that it`s somebody who was on the inside, somebody knows what happened, somebody got scared. And, also, when you are a college kid and you`re drinking, your lifestyle`s so erratic that, if somebody doesn`t come back, you might think, "Well, maybe they went off with a girl that they liked." I wouldn`t necessarily think that somebody was missing.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, Pat, if this is a prank, if they were hazing him, threw him down the trash chute, don`t you think they would have cracked by now?

BROWN: You know, possibly not because they`re still trying to cover up what would be a homicide. But I don`t think it is a prank. I don`t go with that.

I think one of two possibilities. One is a fight that went wrong. He got hit in the fight and went unconscious, and they thought, "Oh, my god, I`ve got to get rid of him." Or possibly there`s a mixture of drugs in the alcohol. That`s been going on all over the United States, and then people are overdosing, and then the friends, they go, "Oh, my god, I gave him that stuff. Now he`s dead. What do we do? Dispose of the body."

This is not the only case I`ve heard of. I`m working on one myself privately right now in that exact situation. So it`s a dangerous problem.

GRACE: But, I mean, this trash chute. Pat, you`re the profiler. This trash chute is two by two. I mean, how can you accidentally -- this kid, what, Clark, 5`6"?

GOLDBAND: Yes, 5`6".

GRACE: How can you get a -- go ahead, Pat.

BROWN: Well, it`s not accidental. And, first of all, the trash chute isn`t of the type and the location where you would think it would just be a nice little slide down as, you know, you would at an amusement park, saying, "Oh, this is funny. Let`s throw the drunk guy down a slide."

I don`t think so. I think this was a disposal method, either through that chute or they managed to get him out of the building some other way and was put into the trash dumpster, which is a great place to put somebody when you want to get rid of him!

GRACE: But he fell, Martin DiCaro, on the platform. And doesn`t everything that -- isn`t it correct that everything that falls on that platform is coming out of the chute or can you go down to the dumpster and throw somebody on the platform?

DICARO: It is possible to put something into the dumpster without using the chute; however, several high-ranking police sources have confirmed to us that they suspect he did go down the chute.

GRACE: Holy moly. Oh...

DICARO: And if I may correct something I said before, they evacuated the both -- or removed students from both of those dorms last Wednesday night, not last Thursday night. So it was two days after he was missing.

GRACE: Oh.

Let`s go to Angie in Texas. Hi, Ang.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just want to tell you: I love so you much. I love your show, and I think you`re the best thing that happened to television.

GRACE: You tell the defense bar that, OK? What`s your question?

CALLER: OK. I understand the legal policy is to wait 48 hours before the police will declare a person missing. Why is this the policy when the crime scene and trail of clues could be compromised? Are we losing time?

GRACE: Is that the policy, Pat Brown? You know, I`ve always heard you have to wait x period of hours before a missing person is declared a missing person. But, with clear evidence such as blood and, as Martin has just revealed to us, the theory police are going on is going down the chute, why wait?

BROWN: Well, I don`t think that was what happened originally when they found he just was missing. I don`t think that blood was found right away. That`s why the campus people probably took their time.

Because, yes, kids get drunk. They disappear all the time. And what happens is you get very jaded in your work. You go, "Oh, god, another drunk kid, another stupid kid," and you ignore it until somebody starts pounds on the door and say, "Look, he may be stupid, he may be drunk, but it`s been too long now."

GRACE: Very quickly, Martin DiCaro with WKXW, do we know that they have put a device down the chute to look for blood? And what is the device?

DICARO: It`s a special state police camera that they`ve used to investigate the chute. And they have done that last week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Holy moly, "`Til Death Do Us Part." Listen, Robi Ludwig has a book. That`s what she`s been doing when she hasn`t been on the show. And there are some very scary pictures. Ah! There`s Scott Peterson. Eek, Clara Harris, Mark Hacking, Dr. Richard Sharpe. Where did he go? Did he go to Harvard? He lasered all the hair off his body before he shot his wife. It`s a very scary picture in here. Thank you for not putting the one of him cross-dressing in here.

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: I`m not going to go into why the book, OK?

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: I want to talk about domestic homicide, as it is euphemistically put. Let`s just get right down to it. Why do spouses kill? There is an epidemic in this country. Number one cause of death amongst pregnant women: homicide. Number two: cardiovascular. Why?

LUDWIG: Well, in part, these spouses feel that their husbands and wives are getting in the way of their happiness. And very often, during the moment of the crime, they feel victimized by their spouse. But the bottom line is: They really believe in that moment in time, if they get rid of their spouse, they`ll get rid of their pain.

GRACE: But why? The motivations, what are the top motivations for murdering a spouse?

LUDWIG: Well, there are multiple, but, basically, profit, abandonment, betrayal.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Profit, abandonment, betrayal? What do you mean by that?

LUDWIG: If your lover leaves you for somebody else, the jealousy can prompt somebody to...

GRACE: Like Betty Broderick?

LUDWIG: Like Betty Broderick, that`s right. And Clara Harris.

GRACE: OK, but they`re not married anymore, right?

LUDWIG: Well, they were married. And what`s interesting about Betty Broderick is that she was a stalker with her ex-husband. She had unrequited love with this man she adored. And she was going to make it until death do us part. In her mind, it wasn`t until he wanted to choose another woman and get married to somebody else. That was not OK with her.

GRACE: What are the other reasons?

LUDWIG: The other reasons, profit. There are women that do it for money.

GRACE: Profit, revenge.

LUDWIG: Revenge, because they`re absolutely enraged with their spouse. In some cases, they do it because they really feel that they`re in danger. Other cases, narcissistic killer like Rabbi Fred Neulander, that`s when they feel that their spouse no longer reflects their specialness.

GRACE: Their specialness?

LUDWIG: Their specialness.

GRACE: Their special-ocity.

LUDWIG: Yes, their special-ocity.

GRACE: Would you lump Scott Peterson into that, a narcissistic killer?

LUDWIG: Well, he certainly had those features. And what I want everybody to know...

GRACE: And Laci just was no longer special or interesting enough for him, that mysterious...

(CROSSTALK)

LUDWIG: I don`t think that`s what did it. He was more like a temper- tantruming child, who, as long as Laci was OK with him, he could charm her, and get away with having affairs, and doing what he wanted to do, he would be OK. But I think she confronted him and that pushed him over the edge.

GRACE: Take a listen to Laci`s mom, Sharon Rocha.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARON ROCHA, MOTHER OF LACI PETERSON: It was really a tough position to be in, because I loved Scott. And I would always have -- I kept going back and forth, before December 24th, after December 24th. The person I knew before December 24th would never have harmed Laci at all. But the person I was looking at after December 24th, I didn`t know that person.

Every time that I said that I did not believe that Scott had anything to do with the disappearance of Laci, I meant that. I believed that.

I was talking to two friends of mine, Lisa and Patty. And after I told them that I was having these suspicions, I actually felt guilty about it, because I was concerned that, what if I`m completely wrong? When Laci comes home, is she going to be upset with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. Great book, "`Til Death Do Us Part," Dr. Robi Ludwig, our special guest. Try not to look at the scary pictures. There`s some full- on frontal photos of Dr. Rabbi Neulander in here. There`s Lynn Turner. She allegedly gave a double-dose of Jell-o spiked with arsenic to not only a boyfriend but a husband, as well. She`s looking at the death penalty right now at her second trial.

There`s Pam Smart. She got a student to kill her husband.

To Clark Goldband, the types of killers?

GOLDBAND: There are 10 that Robi outlines in this book. And I`ve got to say: Go out and grab it, because it is -- you won`t put it down. Temper tantrum killer, transference killer, revenge killer, pregnancy killer, caregiver killer.

You know, if I`m on Match.com -- which I have a girlfriend who I love -- you don`t want to look for these traits. The betrayal killer, control, sociopathic black widow (OFF-MIKE)

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. And narcissistic. What is control killer?

LUDWIG: That`s somebody -- that`s like the O.J.-type. So these men very often batter, are very controlling.

GRACE: Robi, Robi, Orenthal James Simpson was found not guilty.

LUDWIG: Right, that`s true. This is the person that`s very abusive, and they usually kill when, yes, they want to control everything their wife does. And when they can`t and their wife threatens to leave them, that`s when they go crazy.

GRACE: Dr. Robi`s book, "`Til Death Do Us Part."

Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcements on the lookout for Michael Paul Astorga, wanted in the connection of a shooting death of a 38-year-old sheriff`s deputy, James McGrane. Astorga also wanted on a second murder. He`s 5`11", 160 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, covered in tattoos. Pretty picture.

If you have info on Astorga, call 866-641-TIPS, $50,000 reward. Local news next for some of you, and we`ll all be right back. There`s live coverage of the Milwaukee police officers on trial for a civilian beating, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Let`s slow it down. Stay with us as we remember Marine Private First Class Sean Cardelli, 20 years old, Downers Grove, Illinois. Loved by all. Tonight, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Dr. Robi, she`s obsessed with murder, "`Til Death Do Us Part." Dr. Robi, difference between male and female killers?

LUDWIG: There are always exceptions to the rule, but basically women like to kill their husbands to get rid of them, and men tend to kill their husbands -- men tend to kill their wives to hold onto them.

GRACE: OK. Maybe I need to get a PhD in psychotherapy to understand that one.

Let`s go to Jason in West Virginia. Hi, Jason.

CALLER: Nancy, thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling.

CALLER: Nancy, I have got a question. Why in the world would the Peterson family put a ransom out for Laci`s real killer? Haven`t these people got it yet?

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You know what? I`m glad we`ve got a shrink on the show tonight. Jason is correct. What was it? Jason, are you still there? Was it $250,000? Yes, right. OK.

The Peterson family has apparently posted $250,000 reward for the real killer in the Laci Peterson case.

LUDWIG: They`re in denial. Can you imagine raising a child that you absolutely love and having them end up on death row for killing their wife and unborn child? That`s just too much to bear.

GRACE: I`ve got to tell you, I watched the trial every day. And his parents, Peterson`s parents, just stared at him lovingly. They never could take in the evidence.

LUDWIG: Yes, yes. And they probably never will, because this is the little boy that they love who loved them, and that`s what they`re responding to.

GRACE: Thirty seconds: dif between male and female killers, Steph?

GOLDBAND: It`s three to one, Nancy. There were more than 1,200 women killed in the year 2000 versus 400 men, and it`s staggering. The stats just increase and increase, but, folks, if you`re watching at home and you need help, please call 800-799-SAFE. That`s important we get this info out there, 800-799-SAFE. Call it any time, 24 hours a day.

GRACE: Thanks, Clark Goldband. Thanks, Dr. Robi. "`Til Death Do Us Part: Love, Marriage and the Mind of the Killer Spouse." Be careful of the scary pictures, Rabbi Neulander, definitely the scariest.

Our biggest thank you tonight is to you. Thank you for inviting us into your homes, calling us, and listening to our legal stories.

Headlines from all around the world, coming up. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for this Monday night. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END