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American Morning

Saddam Hussein Faces Cross-Examination; The World of Online Pedophilia

Aired April 05, 2006 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody. Lots to get to this morning, including a big truck fire. We've got pictures.
(NEWSBREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Saddam Hussein facing cross- examination in a Baghdad courtroom today. As you might predict, the sparks are flying. Just a little while ago, one of his attorneys got tossed out of the courtroom after apparently displaying pictures of the Abu Ghraib prison abuses at the hands of U.S. soldiers.

Joining us now from Cleveland, Michael Scharf, law professor at Case Western University. He helped train the Hussein tribunal, has been watching this obviously very closely. Michael, good to you have back with us this morning.

Saddam Hussein, every time he has an opportunity, tries to shift this into some sort of political statement and so have his attorneys in this case, invoking Abu Ghraib of all things. As if that has anything to do with what happened in Dujail in 1982. So I guess the question is, has the judge lost control of this courtroom?

MICHAEL SCHARF, LAW PROFESSOR, CASE WESTERN UNIVERSITY: Wow. Another day of fireworks in the Saddam trial, Miles. The problem for the judge is that the more he exercises control, the more likely it is that Saddam himself will boycott the trial. And he has learned from past experience that it's better to have a petulant and disruptive Saddam in the courtroom than to have no Saddam, in which case the media tunes out and the people in Iraq don't get to find out what's going on.

Now in this case, I think Saddam actually hurt himself. Sixty years ago almost to today, Justice Robert Jackson cross-examined Hermann Goering at Nuremberg. And if Saddam was wanting to figure out a model for how to be an effective defendant in a war crimes trial, he could have looked at how well Goerring had done. Goerring, in a very cold and calculating way, made his case in such a persuasive manner that most people felt that he got the better of Robert Jackson, America's best attorney.

That's not what happened today in court. Again, you saw Saddam being petulant, disruptive and ultimately, I don't think he helped his case.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, how could he help his case, a la Goerring style, if want to bring that up? Is there something he can say about his role as the head of the Iraqi state at the time which would give him some kind of cover? Because there's no doubt that those people were executed, and many of them were young boys.

SCHARF: It's tough for Saddam, because this case turned out not to be about testimony, which most people thought it would be, but, rather, about evidence. There was actually more documents in this case that were more conclusive than they had in the old Nuremberg trial 60 years ago. But what Saddam's main defense has been all along is that in this town of Dujail, they had tried to kill him. It was full of insurgents allied with his enemy Iran. He had to go in and clean house, round up the people, interrogate them, and have a trial and execute the people who were found guilty.

He's trying to make comparisons to what the United States has been doing throughout Iraq in Afghanistan, where we have been faced with insurgents in a terrorist threat. And those comparisons are not completely off the mark.

However, the evidence that has come in has shown that Saddam had such a wide net, that he basically rounded up the usual suspects -- and not actual suspects. And those included people that were just eight years old, 10 years old, women, the elderly. And 30 percent of them died in torture during interrogation. So the distinctions between the United States and Iraq, I think, are pretty great.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, and also probably beside the point from a legal point of view, of course, let's listen to Saddam Hussein, what he to say a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI DICTATOR (through translator): I will not shy away from taking responsibility for all -- any decision I took, as long as it does not -- it's not in conflict with my principles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: So in essence, he's not denying he made the decision. He's admitting guilt, isn't he?

SCHARF: He's admitting responsibility for the decision, but that's not admission of guilt. Again, the court is going to have to decide whether some leader in Saddam's position would have had justification for taking the actions that Saddam did. And what he has to show, basically, is that he didn't act disproportionately, that there was a threat and that these were real trials and the interrogation was a fair interrogation.

And when the defense tries to show pictures of Abu Ghraib, what they're saying is, look, there were terrible things that happened even under the United States' watch and so -- unless you're going to hold someone like George Bush responsible, how can Saddam be held responsible? But again, the differences are extremely large, including the fact that the United States has prosecuted those responsible for Abu Ghraib, and Saddam gave medals of honor to those involved in the interrogation at Abu Ghraib 30 years ago.

M. O'BRIEN: It will be interesting, Michael, to see how that defense plays when you get into, say, the gassing of the Kurds and those larger-scale cases of genocide. I'm not sure that that type of logic will hold up in court.

Michael Scharf, always a pleasure. He's law professor at Case Western University. Thanks.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Pretty shocking news from Washington, D.C., last night. Police say a federal official confessed to trying to seduce a 14-year-old girl online. Brian Doyle of the Department of Homeland Security was still on his computer when he was arrested last night. The 14-year-old turned out to be an undercover detective. It all happened just hours after a young man testified before Congress how he was seduced into pornography by pedophiles online.

CNN's Kelli Arena has our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Justin Berry was just 13 and lonely. He thought a webcam could help him meet other teenagers. That never happened.

JUSTIN BERRY, SEXUAL PREDATOR VICTIM: No teenager outside of the webcam pornography business ever contacted me. But I did hear from many child predators.

ARENA: Testifying before visibly uncomfortable member of Congress, the former honors student and class president told his shocking story.

BERRY: And one of these men approached me online with a proposal. He would pay me $50 if I took off my shirt for a few minutes while sitting in front of my webcam.

ARENA: To a 13-year-old, $50 is a lot of cash. Berry says the predator set up a PayPal account, an instant online payment system. More money and gifts followed. And the requests got more explicit.

BERRY: They wanted me to take off my pants, remove my underwear, and eventually masturbate on camera.

ARENA: Berry, like so many other children, felt safe because it was happening in the privacy of his own home. Experts say this type of child abuse is growing, and victims are getting younger.

Webcams cost as little as $20. And more than 15 million homes are equipped with one.

ERNIE ALLEN, PRESIDENT & CEO, INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Five percent of our confirmed child pornography reports have involved self-produced -- you know, produced by kids. Many of them are kids who are persuaded to do photos of themselves, and then it escalates. It's kind of an exploitation or a seduction scenario. We think moms and dads ought to be concerned about it.

ARENA: Justin Berry says it was easy to hide his activities from his mother. Her use of the latest child-protective software proved no match for pedophiles. Eventually, the online molestation turned physical.

BERRY: I had become exactly what my members viewed me to be, what their degrading conversations convinced me I was, a piece of meat, for sale to the highest bidder.

ARENA: At the urging of a "New York Times" reporter investigating child porn, Berry finally went to authorities. Now 19, he says he provided the names of 1,500 men he claims gave him money and gifts for his sexual performances. Only one has been arrested.

Berry accuses the Justice Department of dragging its feet while it decided whether to grant him immunity for selling sex.

BERRY: I cannot describe the agony of that time. Each night, I wondered, were the children I knew being molested that night?

ARENA: Justice officials won't comment on the ongoing investigation, but say the department uses every resource available to quickly protect and remove children who are being exploited from dangerous situations.

As for Justin Berry, he's getting his life together, and, believe it or not, is pursuing a career in computers.

BERRY: I love it. Computers are wonderful. Computers are great. You just have to know how to use them and who's on the other side of them and get your safety facts right.

ARENA: Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: His testifying before Congress was just riveting yesterday. Kelli's report first aired on "ANDERSON COOPER 360." You can catch that weeknights at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.

We're going to follow up on this issue, of course. Tomorrow, AMERICAN MORNING's going to take a closer look at Internet safety in your homes, talk about what parents can do to protect their kids -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, you know, what he said in his testimony, he said his parents did everything they could to try to protect him.

S. O'BRIEN: Except rule number one: computers out of the bedroom. Computers in the living room in a public space. None of that would have happened if it had been -- I mean, that's not fair to say. But a lot of it probably would not have happened had it been in the living room. And a lot of computer experts say, step one: take it out of the bedrooms.

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MARKET REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Coming up on the program, no more special effects or sound effects, but we will be tasting water. Where is the best tap water in America, you might ask?

SERWER: New York City.

M. O'BRIEN; Well, apparently not doing big cities. How about smaller cities?

SERWER: Kokomo.

M. O'BRIEN: Kokomo! All right, good guess.

Later, we'll do our own taste test.

And then in "AM Pop," Ray Romano will join us in the studio. He has this documentary out on a road trip he took with his college roommate and an intern in the backseat with a DV cam. And you know, I'm not sure you want to do a road with Ray. We'll ask about that.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Every Wednesday, isn't?

S. O'BRIEN: I know. We've had it a couple of times. It's so good, let's play it again, is what I like to say.

If we're spending billions on bottled water, must taste better than what comes out of the tap, right, one would think?

M. O'BRIEN: That is the conventional wisdom, as they say.

S. O'BRIEN: Ah, but, no. The folks at the National Rural Water Association would say, uh-uh.

M. O'BRIEN: They had 750 entries in this year's Great American Water Taste Test. You didn't know about this? Well, now you do. Representing rural communities across the country, the winner was announced on Tuesday.

We're going to leave you hanging on that one just for a moment and now introduce our guest, Thomas Dorr, undersecretary for Rural Development of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, who happened to be one of judges. He's in Washington this morning and considers himself a water connoisseur. Right? Is that safe to say?

THOMAS DORR, WATER TASTE TEST JUDGE: That's correct. M. O'BRIEN: Yes. Tell us about the -- give us some background on this whole contest, how this came to be?

DORR: Well, Rural Development is an agency within USDA that's committed to rural communities all across the United States, and one of our programs is to help develop rural water systems throughout rural America. It evolved over about 40 years ago when there was a clear need to improve the water supply and water quality for rural Americans.

And so this group gets together every year, and for the last seven years, they've had a national water tasting test at their conference here in Washington, D.C. And yesterday, I had the opportunity to be one of the judges, and it was a lot of fun.

S. O'BRIEN: I bet it was. I know that there -- it's sort of like tasting wine, isn't it? I mean, you look for clarity, bouquet, taste?

DORR; That's right. It's all the correct things, so we had five finalists and we got to give it the blind test. There were three judges, and out of that, Beaver -- the city of Beaver, Utah, who quite honestly we didn't help finance, but they were the ones that succeeded in this contest, and it was good water.

S. O'BRIEN: We're going to be the judges of that, sir, in just a little bit! Just ahead this morning...

M. O'BRIEN: The discriminating palettes of AMERICAN MORNING here.

S. O'BRIEN: Bouquet and clarity and taste. Let me ask you a question, though -- like I think New York City has pretty good water.

M. O'BRIEN: It's delicious. It really is.

S. O'BRIEN: It is. I'm not joking. Does city water have more chemicals and more purifiers, or whatever they put in water, than rural water or is it the reverse?

DORR: No, I don't think it's either of those. Frankly, all water goes through treatment processes and they just take pride in the fact that for many years, rural Americans had to deal with shallow wells and a number of other things, and the quality of water sometimes was not as tasteful. It didn't have the right odor.

And so they've put together these systems -- and they're volunteers who work on these boards, and they've put a lot of effort into bringing not just good supplies of water, but also it impacts their insurance rates. They have better fire, access to fire prevention, and a number of things. And it's just one of those fun things that they get to do. But the rural water, I suspect, there's equally good urban water across the country, as well.

M. O'BRIEN: But you just didn't -- you didn't look at that.

(CROSSTALK)

S. O'BRIEN: Look at how fair he's being. I think the water in the city and the rural areas are equally good. We're going to do our own taste test. We probably should start it.

M. O'BRIEN: We don't know. These are the five finalists.

S. O'BRIEN: These are the five finalists.

M. O'BRIEN: We don't know which is which.

S. O'BRIEN: You said Beaver, Utah -- you and the other judges, correct?

DORR: Right.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, so we have to go through here and decide if we...

S. O'BRIEN: Well, you start it.

DORR: You're doing a blind test?

M. O'BRIEN: Blind test!

S. O'BRIEN: And so while Miles is doing the tasting, I'm going to ask a question. I was surprised to read that tap water is actually subject to many more stringent, I guess, tests and things than bottled water is. Is that right?

DORR: Actually, I believe that's correct. For example, if you took the water from Beaver City, Utah, and charged it out in a case of 24 bottles of bottled water, you'd have one cent's worth of water. Doesn't count the bottles or the labels. And it's very, very good water. I think you have to admit that all five of those samples are excellent.

M. O'BRIEN: Mmm. All of them delicious. Really. Excellent. I don't know that I can...

S. O'BRIEN: Not crazy about this one.

M. O'BRIEN: Really?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes. But I'm moving on to this one.

DORR: Some of them add a little more mineral.

M. O'BRIEN: Not that one. Not that one.

S. O'BRIEN: Did you pick the winner when you were the judge?

DORR: Well, we don't know.

(CROSSTALK)

S. O'BRIEN: They didn't tell you later? Sometimes they can reveal it.

DORR: No.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. I'm going to go -- I'm thinking...

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, OH. I found the winner. I'm feeling good about that one.

M. O'BRIEN: Really?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: Let me try that one again. I...

S. O'BRIEN: All right. I found my winner. I'm going with -- E. Letter E. I don't know what that is, but I feel good about it.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. I'm going with D -- D.

S. O'BRIEN: Contrarian!

M. O'BRIEN: Just to be contrary, yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Just to be different. Anybody, anybody?

M. O'BRIEN: D. All right, so do we know? No one knows?

S. O'BRIEN: E was the winner.

M. O'BRIEN: Oh, my gosh. Wow.

S. O'BRIEN: Give me some love!

M. O'BRIEN: E, see?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, yes!

M. O'BRIEN: The champion. Wow!

S. O'BRIEN: That is good water, sir.

M. O'BRIEN: Hey, what was D? Just out of curiosity? D was...

S. O'BRIEN: Not the winner.

M. O'BRIEN: Rhode Island. Rhode Island.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes. The Echo Lake Water Supply.

Thomas Dorr, who is the water taste judge and also with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, thanks for talking with us this morning. We appreciate the water taste test. E is really good water. Are they selling it?

DORR: I'm sure that Beaver City will be glad to send you a case of it. M. O'BRIEN: I have a hunch it's on its way.

S. O'BRIEN: Thank you so much. I'll take that case. Thank you, sir.

M. O'BRIEN: I have to go to the bathroom now.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, will you -- you know! Come on.

Short break. Top stories just ahead this morning. Stay with us.

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