Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Serial Killer in Daytona Beach

Aired April 07, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, after eight women systematically killed in and around Daytona Beach, Florida, police tonight on high alert, openly admitting a serial killer is stalking women in the high-traffic tourist town, three women most recently. Has the killer changed his routine?
And tonight, he attended a U.S. flight school undercover in order to kill the innocent, terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui. Moussaoui actually smiling in court as witness after witness details the worst attack ever on American soil. Will a jury see fit to order the death penalty?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, we take you to the death penalty trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, whose outright lies to FBI agents resulted in the worst attack ever on U.S. soil. Tonight, Lady Justice has waited almost five long years to meet Moussaoui in court as he sits there and chants and sings anti-American songs in open court.

But first tonight, Daytona Beach, Florida -- a seaside paradise for millions of tourists every year turns a hunting ground for a serial killer. Police admit possibly eight victims so far targeted, then killed. Tonight, the killer is off his schedule. Are locals lulled into a false sense of security and safety? And tonight, we are taking your calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first body was found on the 26th of December. OK? The second body was the 14th of January, the third body, the 24th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need hard evidence. We need evidence to link them definitely, and to develop some sort of suspect information.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All three victims were shot execution style. Now, the bullet we can compare, is this a semiautomatic or a revolver.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s somebody that we on the streets know and that we pissed him off. So he`s after us, as a payback.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don`t care who the person is. If you pull up, they`ll jump in the car. And if they don`t know you, anybody`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are asking them to buddy up, stay in lighted areas, get off the street if they can. Do anything they can to get off the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now we know of three in the most recent history, in the last two months, three women dead in and around Daytona Beach, Florida. But there are five others in nearby counties, a total of eight.

And now we have learned that Daytona Beach police have interviewed authorities in North Carolina about serial killings of women there. Just how many women are we talking about? And have the locals been lulled into a false sense of security simply because, as he is called, the Calendar Killer is changing his schedule?

Straight out to Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. Leslie, what is going on in Daytona Beach, Florida?

LESLIE SNADOWSKY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, Nancy, tonight Daytona Beach police are kind of freaked out that the local prostitutes have become very complacent about the serial killer. Supposedly they`re out in full force, and they`re not as worried as they used to be last month when they were suspecting that the serial killer would strike again.

GRACE: OK. I want to go to the facts, Leslie. What can you tell me about the most recent person of interest who was arrested and then released? Apparently, right there in the same area, the Ridgeway area, had a woman in the car who jumped -- a hooker in the car that jumped out of the car and started running away when she was caught, she had bruises about her throat. What happened to him?

SNADOWSKY: Well, he was released. He`s not a suspect. They thought that his M.O. was similar to the serial killer. This man did take this prostitute in his car. She fled the car screaming, attracted, you know, authorities to come over.

But he wasn`t a suspect. Even though he did bring her to a place where, I believe, the third victim was dropped off in -- it was by -- I think it was an empty lot or something.

GRACE: Exactly.

SNADOWSKY: Yes, and I think that`s why they connected the two, thinking, well, maybe he`s doing the same thing. But they checked him out. And he`s not a suspect.

GRACE: Checked him out? Checked him out. What do you mean checked him out?

SNADOWSKY: Well, I believe there was a 2005 conviction, some sort of battery conviction, but they`re saying he`s not the serial killer. Right now I think they`re focusing on a couple of people of interest. Actually, their best tips came from the first killing back in 2005, supposedly a cab driver in the area that night where the first lady was -- the first victim was found.

Supposedly, he saw some suspicious activity. And that`s where they found their initial persons of interest. But they`re actually tracking as we speak.

Here is what renowned forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: All three women half naked. However, their clothing still on them. So if they get into car, may have some carpet fiber, car seat fiber. So to compare, that can give us a lot of lead. Not, you know -- let`s just say not necessary local people could be somebody from out of town.

All three victim, they are involved in prostitution or street walker. And so DNA may have some problem. But it`s not impossible. This Daytona Beach case, there are a lot of good evidence there. First of all, all three victims were shot execution style. So you model your bullet. Now, the bullet we can compare, is it a semiautomatic or a revolver? Is come from the same gun or not same gun?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. Leslie, also, one of these persons of interest that apparently is still being surveilled there in Daytona Beach, Florida, ex-wife spoke briefly to the press before she went into hiding and the police apparently even asked her for DNA from her ex-husband to compare, I guess, to DNA found on the victim`s bodies. What can you tell me about that?

SNADOWSKY: Well, she is under wraps literally. I mean, no one`s talking to her. She did say though, that she did submit DNA samples. And she believes that her ex-husband could be a suspect, saying that he had a history of violence, actually a history of murder and believed that her ex- husband fit this profile. So the cops are analyzing the DNA. But as far as anything else that she said, again, they`ve been protecting her.

GRACE: And the other five women in Volusia and Flagler County, their M.O.s to my understanding, the M.O.s of their deaths, were bludgeoning. Now, it`s not uncommon for a serial killer to change M.O.s, Leslie. So what I don`t understand is, are the police afraid to admit to the public they`ve got eight dead bodies on their hands?

SNADOWSKY: Well, police are saying that it`s not related, that these three recent killings, December, January, February, are the works of another -- or just another person ...

GRACE: But why? Why are you saying that? Because Detective Skipper out of Daytona Beach police says it`s very common for serial killers to change their M.O. Agree or disagree, Pat Brown?

I think I`ve got Pat Brown, criminal profiler with me. Pat, are you there?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I`m right here. And, yes, that is true. Serial killers can change their M.O. And the only thing that would say that it`s a different serial killer is if the DNA does not match from one scene to the next. But we must also remember that serial killers can use condoms which means the DNA may not be not even from that guy at all, it may be from someone else entirely.

GRACE: Leslie, what else do we know about the other five murders in Flagler and Volusia? What was the M.O. there? Were they in apartments? Were they hookers? Were they taken out to dirt roads? What happened with them?

SNADOWSKY: Well, I`m not 100 percent sure why the police are dividing the five from the three. But I believe that they`re saying -- and a profiler has stepped in with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, I believe, said this serial killer, the one they believe is responsible for the three recent victims, that this man actually has a close acquaintance in his life who is stressing him out.

So he`s taking these three women as substitute victims. And actually, that kind of rings true when you look at this current serial killer`s M.O., how he just dumps the bodies. There`s no hiding. There`s no mutilating. He`s not trying to hide anything. He`s just -- after the initial aggression, they`re just dumped. So it may have some relevance about the profile of this serial killer they`re working on now.

GRACE: Absolutely. Take a listen to what police have to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people who need to be careful are the people who are in high-crime areas, late at night, getting into cars with strangers or people that they barely know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need hard evidence. We need evidence to link them definitely and to develop some sort of suspect information as well as information that the public can use in specific areas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dr. Lisa Weinstock, psychiatrist. Lisa, you have studied this type of serial killer before. What is the motivation, and how do they escape being caught for so long?

DR. LISA WEINSTOCK, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, there`s a variety of motivations, but oftentimes, as your last guest said, these serial killers are having problems in their relationships with the people that they`re closer to. And they`re taking out their anger on other people, on strangers in this case, on the prostitutes.

So the motivation could be anything from unresolved anger in an earlier relationship, unresolved anger in a current relationship, and displacing those feelings onto strangers for whom they have no feeling whatsoever.

GRACE: Back to Pat Brown. The killing has taken a brief pause. The last murder was six weeks ago. Now, typically, he had been killing almost on the month, the same week of the month. Why the pause?

BROWN: Well, that`s one of those very peculiar things that get us confused because we`re used to the kind of Hollywood stuff which says, you have something like a monthly killer. He kills every time the moon is full.

But generally speaking, serial killers do not kill that way. They kill when they go into -- their live goes into a tumble. So let`s say he`s lost his job or his girlfriend`s left him or his mother`s died. He`s really ticked off at the world. So he`s taking out his revenge on society.

This is an anger-retaliatory killer, which means he`s not necessarily sadistic in the sense of he wants to sexual sadism as part of his plan. But he just wants to kill people because he`s angry and says, "I want to prove that I have power and you don`t"

He goes out there and does this. And he does it until he feels better. Well, he may not feel better after one. He may feel better only after two or three. And then when gets to that point, he says, "OK, that`s enough for now. I`ll go back to my regular life."

Or he may be worried about the police. So other way, the fact is he may take a long break and then we may not hear from him again for two or three years. And that`s what gets very confusing.

GRACE: Pat, take a look. It`s just so obvious to me. You`ve got five dead women from `97 to 2004 in Volusia and Flagler County. They`re not far away from Daytona Beach.

Elizabeth, when you can, put the map up.

Then you`ve got in Union County, North Carolina, the murder of three prostitutes there since 1995. Do I have to say the words Bundy? Do I have to say that? It`s so obvious. Bundy traveled -- there you go, thanks Liz -- all over the country, killing, I think, ultimately around 30 women. Ted Bundy!

BROWN: Exactly, Nancy. But on the other hand, what people don`t realize is, often there are two or three serial killers working the same place at the same time.

We don`t have -- in every major city, we`ve probably got about five serial killers. But the problem is they don`t kill that often. So one will commit a couple of murders and then he`ll wait five years. Meanwhile, another guy will come out and commit a couple of murders and he`ll wait awhile. And it gets very confusing.

GRACE: I`m not buying it, Pat.

BROWN: So it could be one serial killer or it could be three serial killers. Absolutely, that`s proven in other areas.

GRACE: Look at the timeline, Pat. Look at the timeline between `94...

BROWN: It`s possible.

GRACE: ... `94 and now.

BROWN: Yes.

GRACE: 2006, you`ve got three dead, same M.O., Union County, North Carolina. You`ve got five dead, Flagler and Volusia, right on the back porch of these three dead. So you`ve got three plus three plus five, 11 dead women between `97 -- excuse me, `94 and 2006, 11.

BROWN: It may be the same guy, but on the other hand, there`s only so many ways to kill a woman. There`s only knifing, strangle, and shooting. So you got a few ways to do it, maybe bludgeoning. We`ll put four ways in there.

There`s only so much ways a serial killer can kill his women. So oftentimes we will find that serial killers look like it`s the same crime, the same guy did it, but it turns out to be two or three different people. So we don`t know. That`s the problem.

GRACE: But Pat, the local police have admitted point-blank, they know things we don`t know about the case. They have openly and publicly admitted to the population that they do have a serial killer. So there`s no question about it.

BROWN: They do.

GRACE: They do have -- I mean, there`s no question there`s a serial killer.

BROWN: Nancy, they have a serial killer. The question is do they have one serial killer or, with all of these women, do they have two serial killers or maybe three? The problem is they overlap. So they may be looking at more than one serial killer.

But they definitely have a serial killer problem. And they need to get out there and get the guy or guys off the street. But we can`t necessarily say it`s only one.

GRACE: To Tim Braun with Braun Consulting and Investigations. He has worked on similar cases. Tim Braun, how do you build a case like this?

TIM BRAUN, BRAUN CONSULTING AND INVESTIGATIONS: Slowly and methodically, Nancy. It`s a -- you have to take your time, collect and connect the dots between the cases.

It`s important that you establish evidence, correlate it, and put it into one package. And make sure the dots fit between the cases. It can take, as your other guests have said, just because you have multiple deaths in various means does not necessarily mean that they are all connected.

GRACE: OK, well you know what? I`m going to keep what you and Pat Brown say in mind as women in the Florida area are dropping like flies.

OK, very quickly to tonight`s case alert. Court documents released in the torture murder of New York City grad student Imette St. Guillen reveal that suspect Darryl Littlejohn can`t keep his story straight.

First, he alleges he has never even seen Imette before. Then, take two, he says he met Imette that night and that she was drunk. And finally, take three, Littlejohn admits following Imette out of the bar that night, the night she was killed.

In the meantime, memorial service today for the 24-year-old beauty at John Jay College of Criminal Justice where she planned to graduate with a master`s degree.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My parents warned me about it. You better be careful, because I got all different kind of speeches before I came down here. They were like, and there`s a serial killer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people who need to be careful are the people who are in high-crime areas, late at night, getting into cars with strangers or people that they barely know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. A total of three women in and around Panama City Beach murdered in the last few months. Add in the five in Volusia and Flagler and the three in North Carolina. Police openly admit a serial killer is at work.

We are taking your calls. Let`s go out to Michelle in Maryland. Hi, Michelle.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just have to first say I`m one of your biggest fans and I think you`re awesome.

GRACE: Thank you for watching.

CALLER: Sure. My question is, have they found any forensics on any of the three women for hairs?

GRACE: Interesting. You know what? They`re being so tight-lipped, Michelle. But I do know that they have DNA of some sort, because they are asking for DNA on these people of interest. So let`s go out to Leslie Snadowsky. What type of DNA -- do we know anything they`ve managed to glean, Leslie?

SNADOWSKY: I don`t know any results but they`re comparing the gunshot bullets, the bullets they found in the women`s heads, they`re trying to see if it came from a similar gun. As your caller said, they`re checking for hair, other DNA, just they`re not releasing any results.

GRACE: Let me go out to Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney. Renee, what in this type of case, you`ve defended homicide cases, what type of DNA do you think they could find? I mean, these particular -- these three murders we know were committed in cars. And then the body dumped out, at least that`s what police think right now. Or, of course, there`s the possibility they were killed in the apartment, put in the car and then dumped. But Renee, let`s see that map again please Elizabeth. We know these women lived and worked in and around the area where their bodies were found. That says to me, where they were dumped is also the location of where they were killed.

So what do you think, Renee? Fibers from the car, hairs off the person? If they`re not using a condom, sperm? What? What are we looking for?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they can get DNA from skin that might be under a fingernail, from hair that a prostitute may have pulled out of someone`s head during a struggle, from fibers that might be on clothing on the body.

But the interesting thing that everybody`s talking about is not what the police are saying, it`s what some of the prostitutes and the people in the area are saying. They`re not sure that this isn`t someone that`s posing as a police officer.

GRACE: You know, that`s a very good point. To Trevor Garel, now a defense attorney but a former cop and homicide detective, how could that be, Trevor?

TREVOR GAREL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s certainly possible, Nancy. But think of this: It not necessarily has to be a police officer or a former police officer. It could be a person who works in security. Somebody who wears a uniform.

GRACE: Or a poser. A poser. A person -- remember Imette St. Guillen, people in his neighborhood said he would wear an FBI t-shirt and the handcuffs and the whole kit and caboodle? It could be a cop wannabe.

GAREL: But it makes you wonder, how did this information -- where was it generated? Where did it come from? This reference to a possible police officer or retired police officer?

Now, I do know that very often police officers, particularly after working late at night, you may decide to go out and bouncing with the boys, and, of course, you know, after you`ve had a few balls, you may get a little frisky and you decide you want to have a little fun. So you may want to, you know, visit certain areas. That is possible. But, you know, I would really want to -- like to know where that bit of information came from.

GRACE: Well, OK, Trevor. I`m going to try to put out of my mind that you just alluded to cops going out and getting drunk and ordering hookers. OK? I will give you the commercial break to rethink that.

GAREL: No, no, no. Don`t rethink it, Nancy, because it`s for real. I`m telling it like it.

GRACE: OK, you know what? You`re ruining my memories of cops on the stand when I was a prosecutor. But thank you for destroying that.

GAREL: They`re human. Nancy, they`re human.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Not every man goes out and orders hookers when he`s frisky, as you just said, Trevor. I`ll be right back with you.

Very quickly to tonight`s case alert. Prayer vigil held for missing Milwaukee boys Dre Henning, Purvis Parker, just 12 and 11 years old. They`ve been missing since March 19. Police tonight taking a closer look at televised interviews with the family.

Tonight, please come forward if you have info on these two little boys, Dre and Purvis. 877-628-3804. The reward tonight climbs to $62,000.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: All three woman, they are half naked. However, their clothing still on them. So if they get into car, may have some type of fiber, car seat fiber, so to compare. That can give us a lot of lead. There are a lot of good evidence there. All three victim was shot execution style. Now the bullet we can compare. Is it a semiautomatic or a revolver?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Joining me now by phone is special guest Rhonda Iwanski. This is one of victims` sister. Rhonda, thank you for being with us.

RHONDA IWANSKI, JULIE GREEN`S SISTER: Thank you for having me on the show, Nancy. I appreciate it.

GRACE: What can you tell me about your sister? What was she like?

IWANSKI: Even from a very early age, she was always the center of attention everywhere we went. And she was so well liked by everyone. And I -- you know, I do have a couple of special fond memories. But, you know, I don`t know what -- she was just like anybody else`s little girl if you just look at her picture. And...

GRACE: Well, she is a beauty. That`s for sure. We`re showing our viewers your sister right now. This is Julie Green. There she is as a little girl. Like every little girl, growing up with dreams. She lost her life at the hands of the Daytona Beach calendar killer, as he has been called.

With us, her sister Rhonda. What toll has this taken on your family?

IWANSKI: Nancy, this has taken a terrific toll on our family, and it seems like as time goes on, you know, the stress just gets greater and greater, because there is no closure. I mean, there won`t be any closure until this perpetrator is caught and convicted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody that says a 15-year-old can`t be a hooker just doesn`t know much about hookers these days.

GRACE: That is a child, and I know plenty about child prostitution rings, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...

GRACE: And if you`re suggesting that because she was a hooker, she`s less of a victim, I`m going to have to, you know...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... take you out on that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lady, I didn`t suggest that at all. These women, these girls deserved as much compassion as anybody. And I`m not lessening what Gary did because of their occupation at the time. And please don`t misquote me that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We now have a total of three women in Daytona Beach dead, five women in Flagler and Volusia County nearby dead, three other women in North Carolina dead. The Daytona Beach authorities have, in fact, questioned the authorities there in North Carolina trying to weave together, cobble together a story that clearly screams serial killer.

This guy has now been dubbed the "calendar killer" because he kills on a systematic schedule. Right now he`s off two weeks. And I can`t help but wonder why. Now, let`s think about it. What do we know tonight about serial killers?

Let`s go to our producer Clark Goldband. Let`s run through the "hall of shame", Clark. Give me what you got.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, I can tell you, Nancy, these guys may all be sick freaks, but at one point they did have normal jobs. Let`s start with Jeffrey Dahmer behind me. He killed 17 people, worked at a chocolate factory. Next up, John Wayne Gacy, another normal guy. He owned his own contracting business. But once again, he killed 33...

GRACE: Hey, wait a minute. You know what else Gacy did before we get to Ted Bundy? Gacy would act as a clown at parties and parades with little children, and Gacy`s -- many of his victims were found actually buried in the crawl space under his house with their underwear stashed in their mouth. Yes, John Wayne Gacy acted as a clown. He`s been called the clown killer. And he had that job you`re talking about, Clark.

GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, here`s one that`s a little bit even stranger. Let`s take a look at Ted Bundy, killed 30 women. He worked as a crisis counselor, volunteered his time trying to stop people from committing suicide. That might just be like -- I don`t know -- a crack head trying to do drug rehab, if you ask me. Next up is Gary Ridgway better known as the Green River killer...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Elizabeth, can you go back to the last one? You said that Bundy worked on the suicide crisis line. Ann Rule describes that in "Stranger Beside Me" she worked with a suicide crisis line with him. You left out the part where he worked and campaigned for the Republican Party (INAUDIBLE).

GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, he did in fact work and campaign for the (INAUDIBLE), but that was quite a long time ago.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes. Well, he`s been dead for quite a while, Clark, so I guess go ahead.

GOLDBAND: And let`s also move to Gary Ridgway. He is the Green River killer. Confessed to 48 murders. Maybe more out there but we know he did confess to 48. And he painted a truck at the same job for 30 years.

GRACE: Wait a sec. Wait a sec. Wait a sec. Before we move on to Rader, the dog catcher, Ridgway, the Green River killer, that is the way they finally cracked the case with some of the female victims. The paint that he used as a truck painter accidentally had been transferred particles of it, to some of the victims. All right, little CSI info for you, go ahead.

GOLDBAND: You`re just an encyclopedia tonight, Nancy. Thank you.

GRACE: Yes. It`s great to go around with a walking knowledge of serial killers. Yes.

GOLDBAND: Yes. Well...

GRACE: OK, Rader.

GOLDBAND: OK, last but not least. You said he was a dogcatcher. Let`s not totally -- come on. He did more than just catch dogs. He also helped the U.S. Census in 1990. And he also worked as a Cub Scout leader, Nancy.

GRACE: My whole point and Clark Goldband`s point is that this guy in Florida, North Carolina could be anybody, a dogcatcher, works at the auto body shop, a cop, working at a chocolate factory, anyone.

Joining me right now, another special guest along with her husband, Denise Horsman and her husband, Raymond, are with us. And they are part of the "Beat the Streets" campaign. To Denise Horsman, what have you been doing to help investigators stop these killings?

DENISE HORSMAN, BEAT THE STREETS CAMPAIGN: Well, basically, Nancy, what we`re doing is trying to raise awareness. People that normally wouldn`t pay attention to prostitutes or to a homeless person, we`re asking them to keep their eyes open, to pay attention.

GRACE: And to Raymond, her husband, is there a sense of fear in Daytona Beach, or is it business as normal?

RAYMOND HORSMAN, BEAT THE STREETS CAMPAIGN: Oh, yes, you can definitely see a sense of fear there. There`s people talk about it every day when you`re out there. The serial killer`s mentioned at least once a conversation. It`s definitely -- people are well aware that he`s out there killing people. And they`re starting to wake up to that fact.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, Pat, what are some of the reasons that he may have taken a two-week hiatus?

BROWN: There are a lot of reasons, Nancy. One could be simply that there`s so much focus on this case that he doesn`t want to get caught. So he`s going to just simply take his time. And do it sometime when all the people get calmed down and nobody`s worried anymore, then he`ll strike again. And the other reason is simply that really in spite of the fact he`s called a "calendar killer", very few killers actually operate that way.

Usually they have their little moments, and then they take one or two years off, usually because their lives are going well again. They`ve got a job now. They`ve got a new girlfriend. And they`re like back into society. And things are going well. And they wait until that moment when everything goes down the toilet again, and they`re ticked off at everybody, and then they go out and kill again to regain their power.

So there are usually big time slots between that, one year, two years, sometimes five years between those, which is why we all get lulled into complacency. We say well, hey, the guy`s not really...

GRACE: Yes.

BROWN: ... he`s dead or he`s in prison, but then five years later, boom, he strikes again. And we go where did he come from?

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: He`s been there all along.

GRACE: You know you`re right. We can`t expect him to work on a schedule, but this guy seemingly has. Back to Renee Rockwell, defense attorney. Renee, you remember that guy I prosecuted that we suspected of many other murders and finally we got him on one girl? Remember that? And -- and I was talking to his ex-girlfriend, I kept going, gosh, you look so familiar to me. I got to looking through the file, Renee, and I got to the autopsy, and I realized who she looked like. She looked like the dead hooker.

ROCKWELL: Exactly.

GRACE: Same height. The hooker was five feet, the ex-girlfriend four-nine. Both weighed in the 90`s. Both had the elaborate comb-over do. I mean they looked almost identical. In my closing argument, I actually had the sketch artist draw the dead victim, as she would have been in life and put it on an easel beside a sketch drawn by the same artist of the ex- girlfriend, who had thrown him out five years before. They look like sisters. And the argument is, who would kill her except for the man furious at her.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So I`m looking for a link between the victims, Renee.

ROCKWELL: And here`s your substitute killer, somebody that`s going to kill somebody that reminds them. But these girls don`t look alike to me. Don`t discount the fact that this might be someone who picked up a hooker, got the HIV virus and now is just open season on any hookers now...

GRACE: But it doesn`t have to necessarily, Dr. Weinstock, be a physical characteristic. It could be somebody that walks like the old girlfriend, somebody that reminds him in some way, a mannerism, the way they speak, something they said. The way they reacted to him. It could be anything that triggers a memory.

WEINSTOCK: Absolutely. And it may not even be something that we see as a common characteristic. It may be something that only the killer sees. So it may be some distorted perception that the killer has about what it means to be a prostitute and how that may be similar to his feelings toward this other person. It`s really hard to know what`s going through his head that`s motivating him to choose these victims.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Weinstock, you`re dead on. It`s hard to know. But the clock is ticking before this guy strikes again. Take a listen to this, Lisa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s somebody that we all should know and that we pissed him off. His old lady (INAUDIBLE) and turned into a crack head (INAUDIBLE) as a payback.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Rhonda Iwanski, Julie Green`s sister, one of the many, many female victims, when you hear everybody talking about hooker this, HIV, drug problem, it`s almost as if the victims are disposable. Throw away people that don`t matter.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I think I`ve got Rhonda Iwanski with me on the phone. Rhonda, are you there?

IWANSKI: Yes, I`m here. I`m here.

GRACE: Go ahead, dear.

IWANSKI: Yes, I`m hearing all of this and it`s really very disheartening that people actually form such an opinion because of the way people have -- because of their lifestyle. No one, I don`t care what type of lifestyle they live they should not be treated any differently especially to overlook, you know, acts of violence on these people. We don`t know why a lot of these girls are out there. Nobody knows why they chose to go on the streets. Maybe they didn`t have a choice.

GRACE: You know what, Rhonda? I say people take or pursue jobs like this, just like we all take jobs, to make a living. And when you`re at that point that this is all you can do is to sell yourself, that`s when you need the protection the rest of us more than ever. With me special guest Rhonda Iwanski, a sister of the victim and Denise and Raymond Horsman, part of "Beat the Street" campaign. Thanks for those pictures, Elizabeth, to remind us that these dead victims were little girls with dreams like the rest of us before they met their death.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert". Homeland Security Spokesman Brian Doyle resigns following his arrest Tuesday for online child sex sting. This isn`t the first time though we learn that Doyle has been involved in an incident like this. CNN has learned disciplinary action was taken against the 56-year-old at a previous job with "TIME" magazine allegedly using company computers to view pornography.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This man has no soul. He has no conscience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s kind of like a dog with rabies, one that cannot be cured and the only cure is to put him to the death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is the face of al Qaeda. He talks about killing Americans. That is his heart`s delight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury has found that death is a possible sentence in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t want to give Zacarias Moussaoui what he wants, which is to become a martyr.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I remember that day in New York commonly referred to as 9-11, the smell that blanketed the city for weeks, visions of people holding hands and jumping out of the towers and now it boils down to a day in court, that trial, Zacarias Moussaoui.

To James Gordon Meek, in court reporter with "The Daily News." I read today that Moussaoui is chanting and singing anti-American songs in court, that he sits there and smiles when victims describe what they went through and that he was a complete horse`s, let me say, ass when Rudy Giuliani took the stand. Yes or no?

JAMES GORDON MEEK, "THE DAILY NEWS": All of it is very true. It was a very interesting day and a very bizarre trial, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s going on in court, James?

MEEK: Well, we get to see a tragedy unfold every day, particularly now that the jury in this federal trial has found Moussaoui eligible to face the lethal needle in the terror hot death house. They have not found that they`re going to impose that penalty.

They found him legally eligible. Now the government is trying to prove, since they have now attached 9-11 to him, which he admitted his involvement in, in court, although there are still doubts that he did have knowledge of the 9-11 plot, the government is now trying to prove that -- show the devastation of the attacks and the impact of them...

GRACE: You know, James...

MEEK: ... and convince that jury to kill him.

GRACE: ... in a nutshell, what is the strongest evidence against Moussaoui that he knew about 9-11?

MEEK: His own words. I got to be honest with you, Nancy, it would have been interesting to see you prosecuting this case in court, because the government was falling on its face with a parade of witnesses that just crumbled on the witness stand...

GRACE: Oh, God!

MEEK: ... until he took the stand himself and...

GRACE: Idiot! I can`t believe he took the stand! Take a listen to this, James.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): What I hope ultimately is that the truth will be told and that the entire truth will come out, that my son will be judged in an open manner, that the -- in the light. What`s most important to me as a human being and as a mother is the truth. I always say things as I see them. Whether he`s guilty or not, what`s really important is that due process be followed. I don`t want him to be a scapegoat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Liz, Liz, put up the Liz cam. Even a monster has a mother. What -- you trying to make me feel sorry for him? Please do not show me that again. To Hamilton Peterson, Mr. Peterson lost both his father and his stepmother on 9-11. Sir, thank you for being with us.

HAMILTON PETERSON, LOST FATHER AND STEPMOTHER ON 9-11: My pleasure, Nancy.

GRACE: Tell me about your dad and when you learned that he was a 9-11 victim.

PETERSON: I learned the day following 9-11, Nancy. I had a call from my mother, who informed me that both he and my stepmother were on United 93.

GRACE: Oh. Tell me about your dad.

PETERSON: He was devout Christian, both he and his wife, Jean Hodly (ph) Peterson, were very involved in the community. He volunteered with substance abusers. He sat on the board of local philanthropic and religious entities that worked on the front lines of drug and alcohol abuse offenders. And he certainly enjoyed life.

GRACE: Hamilton, the words I`m sorry I learned the other night just really can`t even equate how we feel for you. If you could speak to Moussaoui, what would you say?

PETERSON: Nancy, I`d ask him how he could begin to reconcile his alleged following of Islam with the reality that no true Muslim endorses the killing of any person, much less women and children or 3,000.

GRACE: Have you been in court?

PETERSON: I have been in court. The wonderful prosecutors in this case, Robert Spencer, Dave Novak, David Raskin, had allowed family members to come to the opening argument. I was there. And I had also seen him plead guilty prior to that at the earlier proceeding.

GRACE: And to James, what next?

MEEK: Well, we`re going to continue this week with more very gripping and emotional testimony from at least 45 relatives of victims, such as Hamilton, who are going to tell us their stories. And it is gut-wrenching stuff. We all remember 9-11, and just when you think you`ve heard it all, you hear a story that breaks your heart. And we heard that from Rudy Giuliani, who kicked off the second phase of this trial in describing not only his day on 9-11 and how he responded to it, but all the friends that he said goodbye to...

GRACE: Right.

MEEK: ... not knowing it would be the last time.

GRACE: To James Gordon with "The Daily News," excellent reporter.

MEEK: Thank you.

GRACE: And to Hamilton Peterson 9-11 victim, lost his father and stepmother. Thank you and please join us again.

I want to remind everyone that we are continuing with the Milwaukee police on trial 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV. And Monday night, 10:00 p.m. sharp "Under Investigation: Mystery at Sea," a look at the disappearance of honeymooner George Smith. That`s on Court TV, my other home.

Please stay with us tonight as we stop to remember Marine Lance Corporal David Parr, Benson, North Carolina, killed in combat Iraq just three days from leaving on another assignment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please welcome Nancy Grace.

(APPLAUSE)

GRACE: Oh, Lord. Look at hers and look at mine. I think I`d rather prosecute a serial killer.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re trying to get it round.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s abstract.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Use a little...

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I think immediately aggravated assault.

(LAUGHTER)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I`m trying to get a straight answer from somebody. Mary Winkler was allowed to go visit her husband outside of the jail cell. Is that true?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not really going to comment on that, Nancy.

GRACE: The taxpayers are paying for Mary Winkler`s board and upkeep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell you this much. I was in the bed at 5:00 a.m. in the morning.

GRACE: Was she escorted by your people for a private viewing of her husband`s body before his funeral?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not by my people.

GRACE: Tonight, the scandal continues at one of America`s premier universities. The clock is ticking down on DNA results.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There might be problems with the prosecution`s case.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. Did you say the district attorney is backing off the DNA?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said to me that the DNA evidence was bulletproof. You can`t get false positives. The next day in "The New York Times" said well even if there is a DNA, there could be condoms used. Then he said that he`s not going to release the DNA. Then even if he has the DNA and it comes back conclusive, he might not release it until he has to.

GRACE: A 13-year-old little boy takes his story to Congress, the story of how he and thousands of other children just like him are innocently lured into the child porn business online. We can put a man on the moon but we can`t stop this? No!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For five years beginning when I was 13 years old, I operated a pornographic Web site.

GRACE: I`m just thinking about at age 13, sixth grade boy? How did this happen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This does not surprise me. And every law enforcement person I have ever dealt with when it comes to child predators has told me to tell parents to get the computer out of the bedroom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Thank you to my guests. Our biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.

Special birthday wish to Kathy Evans (ph), happy birthday, friend, and to Martha Heller (ph). Thank you for all those cookies during law school. And to our regular guest Penny Douglas Furr. And a special good night from the New York control room. Thanks, everybody. Night, Liz.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.

END