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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Iran's Breakthrough in Uranium Enrichment; American Flags Upside Down at Immigration Rallies; Radio Talk Show Hosts React to Bush's Poll Numbers
Aired April 11, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush appears to be incapable of lifting his rock-bottom poll numbers. Is the Bush White House indifferent to the needs of 280 million middle class Americans or does the Bush administration have a strategy for success as it says?
We'll have complete coverage of those issues.
Also tonight, Iran sharply escalates its nuclear confrontation with the United States and Europe. The White House says Iran is moving in the wrong direction. The Pentagon updates its contingency plans for possible strikes against Iran.
We'll have that special report.
And the government of Mexico is now demanding amnesty for millions of its citizens who are illegal aliens in this country after the massive protests. And among my guests tonight, one of Mexico's top former diplomats, Jorge Pinto, who says illegal immigration is good for America.
And I'll be talking with three of the country's leading radio talk show hosts, Mark Simone, James Mtume and Doug McIntyre. We'll find out what their listeners are saying about illegal immigration, President Bush and the CIA-White House leaks, high energy prices, and a great deal more.
And all of that and more ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Tuesday, April 11th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Three new opinion polls show the presidency of George W. Bush is in deep trouble. The polls show voters are increasingly dissatisfied with the president's handling of issues such as illegal immigration, the war in Iraq, and energy prices. Voters are also profoundly concerned about the president's economic policy amid rising anxiety among middle class Americans about stagnant incomes and rising living costs.
Bill Schneider reports on the latest poll numbers for the president. Ed Henry reports from the White House on whether the Bush administration can reverse the president's slide in those approval ratings. And Barbara Starr reporting from the Pentagon on a rapidly developing new challenge to this country and Europe, Iran.
We begin with Bill Schneider -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Lou, three new polls all with the same message: things are going from bad to worse for the Bush administration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): How bad has it gotten for President Bush? Poll after poll shows the president's job rating at new lows. But that's not the worst of it.
Nearly half the public, 47 percent, say they strongly disapprove of the way President Bush is handling his job. Only 20 percent strongly approve. This man is not alone in his.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed or nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate.
SCHNEIDER: Public disapproval of Bush's handling of Iraq, 62 percent. Immigration, 61 percent. Gas prices, 74 percent. The White House is trying to promote a rosy picture of the economy but the public doesn't smell any roses. Disapproval on the economy, 59 percent.
The political impact is likely to be felt at the polls this November. In the new CBS News poll, only 14 percent of registered voters say their vote for Congress this fall will be a vote for President Bush, 35 percent intend to register a vote against the president.
Is it as bad for Bush now as it was for Clinton in the is the 1994 midterm when Democrats lost control of Congress? Worse. In 1994, only 18 percent said their congressional vote was a statement against the president. Now, nearly twice as many voters feel that way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Any good news for the White House? Yes. In "The Washington Post"-ABC News poll, a narrow majority of Americans did not think President Bush should be censured for authorizing wiretaps without court approval, and two-thirds did not think Congress should impeach him and remove him from office -- Lou.
DOBBS: Reassuring, I'm sure.
Bill Schneider, thank you.
As the Bush White House struggles to advance its agenda, Iran is escalating its nuclear confrontation with the United States and Europe. Iran today announced what it claims is a breakthrough in its effort to enrich uranium, a process that can be used to make nuclear weapons.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today refused to comment on speculation that the United States is considering military strikes against Iran.
Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The nuclear fuel cycle at the laboratory level has been completed.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The announcement by Iran's leaders that uranium enrichment has begun in defiance of international demands was met by the standard administration response.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: President Bush and America's allies are on a diplomatic track.
STARR: Secretary Rumsfeld refusing to discuss what he called the fantasy land of news reports that there is new war planning for a potential strike against Iran.
RUMSFELD: The last thing I'm going to do is start telling you or anyone else in the press or the world at what point we refresh a plan or don't refresh a plan.
STARR: Military official confirm to CNN that routine planning remains ongoing. A strike against Iran would be difficult. There is limited intelligence about the nuclear facilities and many are buried underground.
The military is now very sensitive at acknowledging it lacks conventional bombs to destroy targets buried perhaps as deep as 75 feet underground.
GEN. PETER PACE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I do not want to talk about tactics, techniques and procedures, nor do I want to give away military secrets that could help them (ph).
STARR: Targeting experts say it would all rapidly escalate.
COL. SAM GARDINER, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Clearly, you would want to hit the medium-range ballistic missiles which have now been moved closer to Iraq. Thirty of them, maybe, you'd want to hit those. You'd want to hit the airbases that were within 30 flying minutes of Baghdad. You would want to hit the chemical warfare facilities. Iran is -- has WMD.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: So, Lou, if at it all came down to it, could the U.S. military conduct operations in both Iraq and Iran? General Pace says, yes, absolutely. He says there are 2.4 million troops both on the active duty guard and reserve, and just 200,000 now on duty in the Persian Gulf region.
But still, it would be a bit of a stretch -- Lou.
DOBBS: And leaves open the profound question as to whether or not whether one could, whether one should even entertain such a scenario.
Barbara Starr, thank you very much, reporting from the Pentagon.
The White House today declared that Iran is moving in the wrong direction. Meanwhile, President Bush is downplaying reports that the United States is considering military strikes against Iran.
Ed Henry reports from the White House.
Ed, first, does the White House really believe diplomacy will end Iran's nuclear program?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That is the mantra, Lou, we're hearing from the White House. No direct comment from the president himself today.
He was at a Medicare event defending his prescription drug plan in Missouri. Right now, he's in Iowa at a Republican fund-raiser. But as you know, yesterday he said exactly what you just said, that he considers war the last option, diplomacy the first option, and that is, in fact, what he is working on.
What we heard today from Bush officials is that they feel basically that Iran chose the path of defiance instead of cooperation, and that basically they need to reconsider this plan. And the good news there, basically, in terms of diplomacy is that various nuclear experts say that, in fact, diplomacy can work, that Iran is still far from actually getting a nuclear weapon. But the bad news, of course, is that diplomacy has always been a question mark for this president, even more so now that he's seen his credibility under question basically over the CIA leak case and events on the ground in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: These polls showing the president -- these three most recent polls showing the president's approval rating at an all-time low, Ed. Does the White House have any strategy, beyond what was obviously a campaign of some weeks in which to put the president out in front of the American people on a number of issues, including the war on terror, energy policy, health care, even, to reverse this precipitous slide in opinion polls?
HENRY: The short answer is there does not appear to be a clear strategy to deal with these poll numbers. White House spokesman Scott McClellan was asked about them to day and basically said, look, the president realizes the war on terror is not going to be easy, it's going to be a long effort, this is a long ideological struggle. And I think -- take a look at what he did today in Missouri at this Medicare event.
The Medicare prescription drug plan was supposed to be a big political winner for this president. Instead, months later, years later, he's still trying to sell it to the American people. And today he was appearing with various senior citizens who were saying, look despite the criticism, it's actually working really well. And the president turned to the crowd and said, look, if you don't believe me, believe Jerry, believe Bob, believe these various senior citizens.
It was pretty striking to me that here's a president who used to have trust and credibility as one of his lead items, and now he obviously does not have that, not just on Iraq, but domestic issue like Medicare -- Lou.
DOBBS: Yes. The political capital, Ed, is not the only thing being expended at this White House.
Thank you very much.
Turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents have killed six more of our soldiers, five of them with roadside bombs. Three soldiers were killed just north of Baghdad, another in the town of Balad. One in Tal Afar. A sixth soldier has died of wounds that he received in combat in Al Anbar province.
Two thousand three hundred fifty-nine of our troops have been killed in Iraq since this war began. Another 17,549 of our troops have been wounded. Of those, 8,058 were so seriously wounded they could not return to duty.
Insurgents also attacked Iraqi civilians today. A bomb killed three Iraqis on a minibus in Baghdad. Nine other people were wounded in that attack.
Coming up here, illegal aliens and their supporters were told to bring American flags to their rallies to show they were pro-American, but their signs told a different story about a hidden agenda. We'll have that special report.
Also tonight, what this nation's major newspapers didn't tell you about those illegal alien rallies and demonstrations in their headline coverage today.
And three of the country's best known radio talk show hosts join me. They'll tell us what their listeners are saying about the president's deepening political crisis, the illegal alien rallies and a great deal more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: At yesterday's illegal immigration rallies across the country, illegal aliens and their supporters were told by the organizers to carry American flags instead of Mexican flags to show that they are pro-American. But many illegal aliens flew the American flag upside down, and many carried signs showing their outright refusal to assimilate into American society.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Protesters demanded that illegal aliens receive the same rights as U.S. citizens. "No one is illegal, amnistia." "Who are you calling immigrant, pilgrim?" And this sign, "Because we produce, we demand," by a group called Mexicans Without Borders.
Foreign flags waving, the American flag upside down. The images are only stirring up emotions.
JEFF FREDERICK, VIRGINIA GENERAL ASSEMBLY: Well, I think it is backfiring. I think people are increasingly seeing more and more of these illegal immigrants. I think it's not sitting well with the citizens, at least in my district in my part of the country. People see that the illegal immigrants are here, they're waving signs saying, "We want rights," or "We have rights," but really, they don't have a legal status, so how do they have rights?
SYLVESTER: Jeff Frederick is the highest elected Latino in Virginia state government. He opposes amnesty. His Colombian mother played by the rules and believed in assimilation. He does not see the same thing happening now.
FREDERICK: There's nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your culture and promote your culture and remember your culture. It's part of who I am, and I think it's important that I remember that. But at the same time, I'm an American, and that comes first.
SYLVESTER: Demonstrators did carry signs that said, "We are America," but that is also a concern for some immigration reform groups.
DALE MCGLOTHIN, FED. FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Yes, there is a reconquista movement out there of people who think that we are all Americans. I mean, they really believe that, that we shouldn't borders, there shouldn't be fences, you should be able to go back and forth between Canada and Mexico and the U.S. without borders and without passports. You should just be a citizen of North America, and we don't agree with that.
SYLVESTER: Many of the protesters proclaiming "We are America" are actually not Americans, but illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The rallies were billed as immigrant rights marches, but immigrants who are here legally in the United States already receive rights. What was really at stake are rights for illegal aliens, and polls show most Americans oppose giving the same rights to illegal aliens that U.S. citizens receive -- Lou.
DOBBS: The -- and it's interesting that in every case the language is about immigrants, never about illegal immigrants, certainly not as we use the terms here and as the Department of Homeland Security does, among others. Illegal aliens, it's always about immigrant rights as if there's no distinction between being legal and being unlawful.
SYLVESTER: Well, that is right, Lou. In fact, I was at one of the rallies here in Washington, D.C., and everything that you saw was immigrants. In fact, they are linking this to the civil rights movement, but obviously there's a big distinction there. That was for U.S. citizens, rights for U.S. citizens. In this case, it's citizens of foreign governments -- Lou.
DOBBS: Yes. I think there is something very troubling to me that -- that organizers of these demonstrations and protests, whatever one thinks of the merit of their claims, that they should try in any way to link to the civil rights demonstrations and protests of the -- of the late -- of the '50s and the '60s in this country. It's -- it's not a welcome thing, at least in my mind.
Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.
An illegal alien protest in Portland, Maine, turned violent when a protester demanding rights for illegal aliens attacked a man who was protesting against amnesty. Robert Gorman was carrying a sign at yesterday's rally that read "No rights for illegals." He was then surrounded by a group of teenage illegal alien rights supporters.
One of those teens hit Gorman in the head with a metal object. He was rushed to the hospital. Gorman says he's sorry if he offended anyone, but he is still sticking by his beliefs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GORMAN, ATTACKED AT ILLEGAL RALLY: I mean, if all those illegals can do their speeches, you know, why can't I? You know? Doesn't it say in the Constitution, freedom of speech?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Importantly, Robert Gorman is the son of a Mexican immigrant. Police do have a suspect in the case. The search is under way for that suspect tonight.
And it is worth pointing out that of the hundreds of thousands of protesters and demonstrators all across the country, there has been remarkably, by any standard, little violence, and in nearly every instance these demonstrations and protests were carried out in an orderly and dignified manner.
This country's major daily newspapers, however, may have misled some of their readers today in their coverage of those demonstrations and rallies. Their headlines failed to tell the truth about what the rallies are all about, rallies in favor of illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal aliens.
"The New York Times," for example, headlined today, "Immigrants Rally in Scores of Cities for Legal Status." "The Washington Post" calls yesterday's marches "Immigration Rights Rallies" and called yesterday's D.C. march "A Banner Day on the Mall."
"USA Today's" headline reads, "Historic Rallies Voice a Dream: Immigrants, backers demand citizenship."
"The Wall Street Journal" headline reading, "Immigration Policy Protests Draw Huge Crowds of Workers."
One newspaper, "The Las Vegas Review-Journal," however, was somewhat more straightforward. It made this astute comment in an editorial today, saying, "Organizers wanted the marches to be more about people and less about policy. Most television stations swallowed the bait and delivered news reports soft enough to follow 'Sesame Street' on PBS. The reason for such an approach is obvious. If marchers made their demands the clear centerpiece of protests, the outcry from American taxpayers already fed up with the cost of illegal immigration would overwhelm the previously full mailboxes of every member of Congress."
And I should note that some shows on this network carried the trades -- the title style "Immigration Nation," which I think probably is profound in its neutrality.
As illegal aliens rally for amnesty, this nation's border security crisis is worsening. Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, is being wracked again by vicious drug gang violence. Nuevo Laredo is a Mexican border town just across the Rio Grande from Laredo, Texas. Two men yesterday were shot to death there on the same day as U.S. and Mexican officials announced a new plan to curb violence in Nuevo Laredo.
Nuevo Laredo still can't find a full-time police chief. The last police chief quit suddenly three weeks ago. After being on the job eight months, his predecessor was gunned down on his first day on the job.
Nearly 80 people have been killed in Nuevo Laredo so far this year. Drug gangs continue to fight a bloody turf war along the border.
Coming up here, temporary guest farm workers in this country may soon be protected by a nationwide labor contract. Who needs Congress? We'll have that story.
And stunning new projections on how many more illegal aliens will be entering this country now that Congress is talking about illegal alien amnesty.
And what is the Bush administration doing to stop the latest spike in gasoline prices? Three of the country's most popular radio talk show hosts join me here to tell us what their listeners are saying about the economy, the rising cost of living, and what many consider to be an all-out assault on our middle class.
Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: While President Bush continues to advocate his guest worker amnesty program, it turns out there is a guest worker program in place for farm workers in this country under the H2A visa program. And tonight, the United Farm Workers Union signed the first nationwide labor contract that will improve wages, benefits and working conditions for so-called guest farm workers in this country.
Who needs Congress and the White House?
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The United Farm Workers Union has reached what it calls an historic labor agreement with Global Horizons, the Los Angeles company that supplies farmers with legal foreign guest workers. Growers claim border security efforts have made workers scarce.
MORDECHAI ORIAN, PRESIDENT, GLOBAL HORIZONS: There's nobody to do the job any more, because the borders get tighter and tighter and so there's less and less people coming in.
WIAN: For now, the deal only covers about 3,000 mostly Thai and Vietnamese farm workers, but the union and the labor contractor say they will begin recruiting workers from Mexico. They also say their deal could become a model for future guest worker programs.
ARTURO RODRIGUEZ, PRESIDENT, UNITED FARM WORKERS: This is one way of doing and preparing for that reform that takes place, ensuring that guest workers have the same protections as other workers, the same opportunity as other workers, and simultaneously we ensure that the agricultural industry stays here in America.
WIAN: The U.S. government grants between 14,000 and 33,000 H2A visas for agricultural guest workers each year. Farmers must demonstrate they can't find Americans to do the jobs and must pay what's called an adverse effect wage rate, currently $9 an hour, nearly $4 above the federal minimum wage.
PATRICK GRANT, AG. LABOR CO-OP OF AMERICA: We felt that the H2A worker program was our only choice to ensure the quality and the quantity of workers that we need this year.
WIAN: The UFW says it negotiated a 2 percent pay increase above the minimum for the Global Horizons workers. However, the workers won't see any extra money because the UFW's dues are also 2 percent of the workers' pay. They will receive paid medical care, seniority and other benefits.
The United Farm Workers Union is trying to recapture it influence in the field by actively advocating for illegal alien amnesty. Founder Cesar Chavez was actively opposed to illegal immigration. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The UFW says it's actually opposed to a new guest worker program. Instead, it favors the stalled Ag jobs bill which would grant amnesty to nearly two million illegal aliens already in this country -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Taking a look now at your thoughts, Marlene in Pennsylvania wrote to say, "How can the public be informed when many in the news world are calling illegal aliens 'immigrants,' which implies that they are here illegally? Not being legally means they have no right to demand anything of us."
And Tom in Pennsylvania, "If the illegal immigrants really want to teach us legal immigrants a lesson, they should quit working not for one day, but for a week. No, a month. No, make it 10 years. And while they are at it, quit using schools, hospitals, government aid and everything else."
Sandy in California, "Hey, Lou, how about a day without America for all those illegals?"
Billy in Texas, "Lou, if only gasoline prices would fall as fast and as low as President Bush's approval ratings."
Melissa in California, "As a second generation Mexican-American whose grandparents on both my mother and father's side legally emigrated to the United States, I would like to remind viewers that not all Latinos and Hispanic-Americans support the illegal aliens. My grandparents taught their children to love and honor this country that has given so many opportunities to us. We are some of the true citizens who have built America and made it what it is today, not the illegals."
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Our poll tonight, the question: Do you believe the Bush administration is indifferent to the interests and needs of our middle class? Yes or no?
Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. The results coming up.
Next here, talk of amnesty for illegal aliens sparking a rush for the border. Thousands wanting to make certain that any amnesty includes them. A special report as history, once again, repeats itself.
And tonight I'll be talking with former Mexican ambassador Jorge Pinto, who says American agriculture would collapse without illegal immigration.
All of that and a great deal more coming right up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: When Washington talks about amnesty for illegal aliens, millions of people are listening, and the evidence shows that millions on the other side of our broken southern border act on what they hear.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Every time this country discusses amnesty for illegal aliens, the number of people entering the country illegally soars. This latest wave started two years ago.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I propose a new temporary worker program to match willing foreign workers with willing employers when no Americans can be found to fill the job.
TUCKER: With those words in January of 2004, the president might have just as well fired a starter's pistol. The number of arrests at the southwestern border soared. Arrest rates, which had been occurring at an average monthly rate of 75,400 in 2003, jumped to almost 95,000 a month in 2004, to nearly 98,000 last year.
That monthly arrest average is now 106,000, a 40 percent increase since 2003. In testimony before Congress last month, the Texas border sheriffs warned of the message that Washington is broadcasting.
SHERIFF LEO SAMANIEGO, EL PASO, TEXAS: Anytime you give a group of illegal, undocumented, aliens that are already here amnesty or even anything that sounds close to amnesty, you're sending the message to the next 12 million that are going to come in after them.
TUCKER: The last time amnesty was debated was in 1986, and arrest of illegal aliens attempting to cross rose 23 percent from the previous year, which means, from a border agent's perspective, it's clear what should be happening now.
T.J. BONNER, NATL. BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: I think before you start discussing how do we deal with the complexity of all of the millions of people who are here, you have to set in motion a mechanism to stop other people from coming in.
TUCKER: The official apprehension rate is on pace to top 1.2 million this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: But border agents say that number understates the size of the problem, pointing out that for every one they catch, another two or three get away, Lou. DOBBS: And that's how the people come up with the number about three million illegal aliens a year crossing our borders and nearly all of those, the southern border with Mexico. Bill Tucker, thank you.
As you know, we've reported regularly here on the Mexican government's meddling in American immigration policy. And Mexican embassies issue identification papers, for example, through a matricular counselor to illegal aliens living in America. The Mexican government openly lobbies for guest worker amnesty.
Jorge Pinto has represented the Mexican government in a long and distinguished career. He was deputy chief of mission in the Mexican embassy in Washington, D.C., serves as executive director of the World Bank, and he says illegal immigration is good for the United States.
In fact, he says, quote, "tourism and agriculture will not survive without a workforce that is now mainly undocumented and entering the United States illegally."
Jorge Pinto, professor of international business at Pace University in New York joins me now. Professor, good to have you here.
JORGE PINTO, PROF., PACE UNIVERSITY: Thank you very much for inviting me. I think it's a pleasure to talk to you on the issues that we disagree on profoundly.
DOBBS: On the issues that we disagree about so profoundly. I thought we might. But let's talk about first about some issues that we might agree upon. As Bill Tucker just reported, we're repeating the mistakes of 20 years ago with amnesty.
PINTO: Right.
DOBBS: Not arguing as to whether or not amnesty is the mistake, but in terms of what followed.
PINTO: Right.
DOBBS: Massive illegal immigration -- we're repeating the mistakes, in fact, of 40 years ago in 1965 in which we opened up immigration in this country and what followed was considerable illegal immigration and then massive illegal immigration. What should the United States do to prevent the repetition of that part of the experience?
PINTO: Well, I think that it's commonplace to say that this is a nation of immigration, which it is. And the reason why immigrants come is because there are jobs here, and jobs that need to be fulfilled, that the economy -- that the local population are not, in a way, willing to do.
And what I said in the quote that you put at the beginning of the program is correct. There's many sectors that will not survive. Then why people come to the U.S.? Why the Irish came to the U.S. or the Italians or the Greeks?
DOBBS: We understand the history of this country. I think most of us, fairly well, as do you.
PINTO: Right. Right.
DOBBS: What I think most Americans have a hard time understanding is why it appears that we've turned over immigration policy in this country to corporate interests, to open borders activists, to ethnocentric organizations, to the government of Mexico rather than taking responsibility for it ourselves.
PINTO: Right.
DOBBS: The fact that we have jobs is not a license for any one country to dominate our immigration pathway.
PINTO: Definitely it's not a license, not for any country, but what is a fact is, basically, you have an economy that is growing, and you have the Federal Reserve Board that time and time again mentioned that inflation has been in check and this, what you call illegal immigrants, are here because we have a law which is an old law, it's an outdated law.
DOBBS: Who says it's outdated?
PINTO: Well, the fact that you have 11 million people ...
DOBBS: Well, wait, wait, wait. This is a -- you know, people forget something.
PINTO: Yes.
DOBBS: This is a Democratic republic.
PINTO: Totally.
DOBBS: We have millions of Americans here, who are legal citizens who are supposed to be represented in Congress.
PINTO: Sure.
DOBBS: But corporate America doesn't decide what is outdated. We're more than an economy, and our citizens are more than consumers and productive units of labor.
PINTO: No, I don't think that that is the implication, that corporate America rules Congress. But what is a fact is there is a symptom, that means you have a law which is not recognizing a reality.
You have 11 million people coming to the States, at the great risk, leaving their families behind, that in many, many, many cases that are the best people that we have that we -- because our economies are not able to give them work.
DOBBS: That isn't necessarily -- when you say the best, I don't like talking about people in terms of the best. We know this, they are not the best educated. In most cases they have no education.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But what concerns most Americans is, we have people demonstrating in our streets, demanding rights, but they are not demonstrating in the nations in which they have originated.
In point of fact, the Mexican government is encouraging illegal immigration, without any sense of national pride, exporting its poor, denying them dignity, seeking the money that comes back from their work, their hard work, and labor in this country. No one would argue that.
PINTO: Right.
DOBBS: This is not a way for a government to behave, not providing for its citizens, massive poverty. You worked at the World Bank. Why in the world isn't the government of Mexico standing up for its own people? Why aren't the people of Mexico standing up for themselves and their government?
PINTO: Right. First of all, this the important thing is this an issue of supply and demand. I mean, the Mexican ...
DOBBS: That's economics. I'm talking politics first.
PINTO: Yes, but, I mean, it's an economic phenomenon. Why people immigrate beyond -- I don't think that people immigrate because the Mexican government tells them go to the U.S. because we cannot give you jobs. Fortunately, we're more and more a market economy, and therefore the government is less and less important and relevant. Absolutely. We can talk ...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: This is one-world, neo-liberal nonsense. You know, because somebody says a border is no longer important, we're treating this border as if it were not important. But we're seeing the impact of it.
PINTO: I didn't say the law should not be respected and people abide by the law.
DOBBS: What about enforced?
PINTO: And enforced. But what I am talking about is that when you have a symptom of 11 million people working and working very hard ...
DOBBS: Eleven to 20 million.
PINTO: ... eleven to 20 -- in fisheries, meat packaging, hotels.
DOBBS: Right.
PINTO: That means people that highly-respect -- you mentioned that I had a job as a Mexican official before.
DOBBS: Right.
PINTO: I met with mayors, I was in New York City, and people recognize the enormous value that this community brings to this country.
DOBBS: And I hope that there's also recognition that we cannot continue to accept waves of 10 million, 20 million illegal immigrants into this country.
PINTO: I don't think that -- that definitely not.
DOBBS: Can we agree on that?
PINTO: Totally.
DOBBS: All right, we're going to have to end with agreement. Professor, it is good to have you here.
PINTO: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Professor Jorge Pinto, please come back, the issue certainly isn't going away.
PINTO: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Coming up here next, middle-class wages in this country are stagnant. They have been for years. Gasoline prices are anything but stagnant, they are moving higher. And the White House is paying a political price, it now appears.
And tonight I'll be talking with some of the country's best-known radio talk show hosts. We'll be talking about the issues that matter to their listeners, the working men and women in this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, we can all count on higher gasoline prices for the next several months, it appears. The latest figures show a gallon of gasoline costing 40 cents more than just a year ago. Nationally, gasoline prices have risen to $2.69 a gallon. They've hit $3 in some parts of the country.
Prices have been rising since December. The federal government says they will stay high through the summer. That makes some sense, since that's the peak travelling season and it's another political headache for this White House and another burden for our middle class.
A "Washington Post"/ABC News poll shows 74 percent of Americans are unhappy with President Bush over gasoline prices. That's the highest disapproval rating that he received on any issue in any poll, including Iraq.
But lawmakers may be paying some attention. Gasoline prices are even higher in Washington D.C. than they are nationally. That doesn't happen too often. Some might call that equity.
Joining me now to tell us what their listeners are saying about rising gasoline prices, the illegal alien rallies and demonstrations, the deepening political difficulties facing the Bush administration and his latest poor polls, three of the country's best-known radio personalities. Her in New York, Mark Simone of WABC radio. Good to have you with us, Mark. And James Mtume, the host of "The Open Line" on KISS-FM, good to have you with us. And from Los Angeles, good to have you, Doug McIntyre, host of "McIntyre in the Morning" on KABC.
Doug, let's start with you. This president, three poll ratings, showing him at the lowest point of his presidency.
DOUG MCINTYRE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, Lou, I've seen soccer games with bigger numbers. This is about as bad as it gets. Look, this is -- this always gets spun six ways from Sunday, but you're also seeing some of these disapproval numbers calcify, like disapproval in the handling in the war in Iraq. This has been steadily against the president for 16 months. And the reality is that while most presidents have a tough time in the second term, this president doesn't appear to have his hand on the tiller, and people don't like what he's doing.
DOBBS: Is he going to be able to reverse it?
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, you can always reverse it. If he catches Osama bin Laden, I suppose the numbers could go up. But no, I don't think they they're capable, because I don't think that they are paying attention. I don't think they care what the American public thinks.
DOBBS: Do you agree, James?
JAMES MTUME, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I just had to laugh, it was funny what he said opening up. First of all, if he caught Osama bin Laden or Osama bin Laden's mother, grandmother, it doesn't matter at this point.
I think we finally are clear about the expose of the glorification of mediocrity. And that's what this administration has bit.
DOBBS: Glorification of mediocrity.
MTUME: At best. And the fact remains, we're finally catching up with what we need to deal with in this country. This presidency has been a flawed presidency, in terms of the middle class, from Jump Street, street terminology from the beginning.
So the second term is really more -- and like I said, it's an exposure of the ineptness. And also how the administration has closed off itself and suffered from the arrogance of isolation.
DOBBS: The glorification of the mediocrity, I have to say when I look at certain cabinet members in particular, James, I think he's pretty close. MARK SIMONE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You're looking at me to defend this remark?
DOBBS: You have the honor.
SIMONE: I wouldn't wish this spot on a leopard.
But let me see, first of all, you have to remember that how many presidents have gone lower in the polls? Reagan, Carter, Bush Sr., Clinton have all been lower in the polls and have all recovered, except for Bush Sr.. So maybe there's something genetic there.
There is a lot of mediocrity, but let's also remember this is a president who's liberated 50 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan. The cleanup may not be going as well as people would expect. Unemployment is at 4.7 percent, which many economist consider full employment. That's a remarkable achievement.
DOBBS: Well, I'll tell you how old I am, Mark. When I went to school, six percent was considered full employment in this country, but that doesn't take into account the length of time that people are taking to find jobs, it doesn't include discouraged workers in this country, people who are not working in jobs that are paying even 20 percent, close to what they were making before they lost jobs in a host of industries, including three million manufacturing jobs.
SIMONE: But I don't think you can blame this president entirely.
DOBBS: Oh, I don't blame this president entirely. He just happens to be handy, because he's the guy in charge.
SIMONE: But that me a result of the '90s and all of that outsourcing.
DOBBS: Well, outsourcing, really started, frankly, took off in 1999, 2000, but cheap labor's what this is all about, isn't it, Doug? Whether it's outsourcing, whether it's illegal alien rallies?
MCINTYRE: Well, I don't think that -- you know, it's Charles Dickens, it's the best of times, it's the worst of times.
There are a lot of people in America that are doing great. But I think the administration just dismisses and cooks the books. I mean, when you read the classifieds, burger flippers is manufacturing jobs and then talk about the growth of manufacturing in America. What do you expect?
I don't think people trust government. I think right now, frankly, the only thing -- George Bush has got two things going for him. The Democrats and Dick Cheney's his vice president. Because otherwise, people would be really, you know, if this was a European- style government, I'm really convinced the government would have fallen.
MTUME: I think, you know, to get back to more seriousness, first of all, I would disagree with the word liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq.
First of all, bombing is not liberating and we still don't know what the deal is in Iraq right now. All I know is that many people have been killed, many people are wounded. We are not dealing with that in a realistic fashion, because you know, quite frankly, the media doesn't show what really happens in war.
And it seems to me, it's kind of ironic that people who have never fought can dismiss those kinds of damages so easily. And I -- and the other point I want to make, you're absolutely right. Reagan fell -- a lot of people fall in the second term, but usually those are based on issues.
What you've got now is the convergence of a critical mass of failure. Also, in the next -- I think the next year or so, you're going to see legal things being probed into. We still don't understand about the wiretapping. Oh, I'm sorry, but he doesn't leak. He declassifies. It's a lot of the word games, I'm into, we're headed for a dangerous time in this country.
DOBBS: You know, people treat -- in the media, in politics in this country, treat just about everybody watching us and all of the people we know all across this country, just about everybody as a bunch of idiots.
But what's interesting is that these polls are showing that this president, in the most recent poll, is considered either, most of us, over 60 percent, think he either did something unethical or illegal. Mark, what do you make of that?
SIMONE: I think illegal was down to about 22 percent. Unethical we expect, he's a politician.
DOBBS: I'm going to be honest with you, I still have enough of my youthful ideals and I know still a few politicians who are ethical. So my expectations, frankly, sir, are damn high.
SIMONE: Well, but if you're worried about national security, I didn't see people up in arms over Sandy Berger smuggling documents or -- you know, the first person to leak in all this...
DOBBS: ... To be honest with you, you saw me up in arms.
SIMONE: But aside from you, the first person to leak here was Joe Wilson, who admitted to me he was leaking to Nicholas Kristof in "The New York Times."
DOBBS: Doug, I'm sorry, can I interrupt you? We're going to take a break here really quickly, we'll be right back to you. Stay with us as we continue here.
Our poll question, a reminder. The question tonight is, do you believe the Bush administration is indifferent to the needs and interests of our middle class? And when I say middle class on this broadcast, we're talking about working men and women in this country are middle class and those that aspire to be part of it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, my friend Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. Wolf, what have you got?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. We've got lots going on, including nuclear muscle flexing. Iran's president announcing to the world that, for the first time, Iran has successfully enriched uranium, but how close are they to building a bomb?
Also, the wife of an American hostage breaks her silence for the first time, makes a direct appeal to her husband's captors. It's an interview you're going to see only here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Plus, Arnold Schwarzenegger on greenhouse gases. Find out why he's now going against the White House to clamp down on polluters.
And finding his religion, Bill Clinton talks about sinning and voting values.
All of that, Lou, coming up right at the top of the hour in THE SITUATION ROOM.
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf. We're here with James Mtume, Mark Simone, and in Los Angeles, Doug McIntyre. Doug, go ahead.
MCINTYRE: Well, Lou, I just think that we're living in unbelievably turbulent times, one of those transitory periods of history, and I get that real sense from people to talk about ...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I feel better now, Doug, knowing this is transitory. I'll tell you that.
MCINTYRE: Well, I mean, it's a transitional period. It's kind of like the changeover from the agrarian age to the industrial revolution but in hyperspeed, and I don't think that anybody has a sense that the so-called leaders are leading. I think that they are just trying to control spin and damage. And there's just a great sense of nervousness and a real lack of confidence.
DOBBS: You mean there may be some connection between how well government is working and the policies that are being pursued in those low poll ratings?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think ...
DOBBS: It's good to know the law of cause and effect at least is still being honored.
MCINTYRE: Well, I think that people have to fight through the years and years of brand identity. We're Republicans, we're Democrats, and you say something bad about us, and we'll say something bad about you. But the reality is, is that the two party system flamed out like a supernova, and we're just living off the vestigial light of a star system that doesn't exist anymore.
DOBBS: I think Doug has taken up to an altitude that just -- give us something granular here, Mark.
SIMONE: Well, all I'm saying is, if you look back at the '90s, things weren't a whole lot better, the Clinton administration handing one contract after another to Halliburton. You had congressmen going to jail left and right. Do really want to go back to Rostenkowski and Jim Wright and remember Gary Condit, and the wonderful Democratic Congressmen we had. And ...
DOBBS: But is Doug's point right? This Republican/Democrat thing? You know, I'm hearing more people say, yes, I'm a Republican, yes, I'm a Democrat. But can't somebody just take charge of this country and make it better for folks?
MTUME: Well, first of all, there's no distinction between Democrat and Republican. In this sense, as far as I'm concerned, right wing or left wing, it's on the same bird, and the bottom line is, it's all about identities, it's all about who controls the power and the lobbyists.
The presidency is bought. It's lobbyists. It has nothing to do -- it's like we're getting ready to watch the NBA finals, right, it's going to be West Coast versus East Coast. Whoever wins, one thing is for sure, they are still part of the NBA.
MCINTYRE: I think James is 100 percent correct. I think James is 100 percent, and we ought to get rid of the donkey and the elephant.
MTUME: We have to do lunch. We have to do lunch.
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTYRE: It should just be a bar code for both parties.
DOBBS: Mark, you're going to get in here.
SIMONE: The interesting thing in that poll, there were three issues that were the most important to voters. Healthcare -- Democrats in power in eight years did nothing about that. Immigration -- you know, you can't count on either side to help you there. The other one and you might not like what Bush is doing, but the Democrats don't seem to have any plan there.
DOBBS: I mean, how about just -- people -- you know, I said I was going to be idealistic, and when I get to the point thinking about Democrats or Republicans, I start sputtering. Gentlemen, I thank you for being here and bringing eloquence and articulation to my otherwise ...
(CROSSTALK) DOBBS: Exactly. What was I thinking? Mark Simone, Doug McIntyre, James Mtume, thank you, very much, gentlemen. Good to have you here.
Still ahead, more of your thoughts, and we'll have the results of tonight's poll. Please stay with us.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Now, the results of our poll. Ninety-eight percent of you say the Bush administration is indifferent to the interests and the needs of this country's middle-class.
Taking a look now at more of your thoughts, Gil in Florida wrote in to say, "Mr. Dobbs, many Hispanic-Americans like myself think that what is going in our country and in our government is insane. People who are here illegally should not be rewarded in any way. Citizenship should be for those who respect and abide by our immigration laws, not for those who choose to violate them."
John in Florida: "Lou, I thought you were exaggerating the threat of illegal immigration somewhat. However, the demonstrations taking place across the country have changed my mind. When you listen to people complaining of their rights being denied in Spanish and waving Mexican flag, it appears the problem is much worse than you depicted it. What is wrong with our leaders?"
Faye in Ohio: "I won't have to take to the streets to demonstrate for middle class America. As the old saying goes, I can show you better than I can tell you. Just watch me in November."
And Michael in New York: "Only in America could I turn on a TV and watch tens of thousands of people, many of whom are not citizens and furthermore, who are in violation of our laws by their mere presence on our soil, march in our streets and demand their rights, while, in many cases, waving the flags or foreign countries."
Bob in California: "Lou, what a country. Only in America can illegal aliens march en masse protesting for rights they do not have."
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We love to hear from you, and we love to share your thoughts. Each of you whose e-mail is read on this broadcast receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." And if you would like to receive our e-mail newsletter, just ask for it on our Web site at LouDobbs.com.
We thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow when among my guests will be Congressman Luis Gutierrez. He organized and participated in the illegal alien protest marches and demonstrations. He'll be just guest, and will retired Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni. General Zinni is calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. He'll by my guest as well.
Please join us. For all of us here, we thank you for watching. Good night from New York. THE SITUATION ROOM starts right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
