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Nancy Grace
Durham County DA Vows to Pursue Alleged Gang Rape Case
Aired April 11, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a legal showdown in Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, and the elected district attorney comes out gun a-blazing. Now, you thought it was all over last night, when the defense team announced no DNA. But today, the prosecution fires back. It ain`t over yet!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t mean nothing happened. It just means nothing was left behind, which is the case in 75 to 80 percent of all sexual assaults.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, British-American prison inmate 27-year-old Neil Entwistle in court on two charges of murder one in the shooting death of his wife, Rachel, and 9-month old baby girl, Lillian Rose. He announces in court he is not guilty. Now, which way will the defense go?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: He is charged with killing his wife and 9- month-old baby girl as they slept in their New England home, then flying across the ocean to Great Britain to hide out at mommy and daddy`s house. Well, his lawyer does all the talking today in court, with a "not guilty" plea.
But first tonight, the state fires back after a serious blow in the Duke lacrosse team multiple rape scandal. The defense says no DNA, no case, but the elected DA stands by his claim that a female student-turned- stripper was assaulted, and he vows it ain`t over yet. Tonight, we are taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s very clear that the victim in this case came to the house with injuries on her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are, as I said, cautiously optimistic. They know that this is not over. They know that there`s a lot of scrutiny on the program, on the school, and that, probably, lacrosse at Duke and life at Duke will never be the same.
JOE CHESHIRE, LACROSSE TEAM MEMBER`S ATTORNEY: None of us standing up here are saying that there aren`t proper social and moral issues that have come out of this whole discussion that aren`t appropriate for discussion. There are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say to her, It`s OK to come forward, to come forward and to tell the truth in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to WPTF radio reporter Kevin Miller, joining us again tonight with the latest out of Raleigh-Durham. Kevin, thank you for being with us. What did the district attorney have to say today at the forum?
KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Nancy, what he had to say at the forum at NC Central was, essentially, that the accuser has identified one of the members of the lacrosse team, and she did that last week. He also said just because the DNA evidence has not come back, that he will continue on with further testing.
GRACE: Wait a minute!
MILLER: In addition to that, Nancy...
GRACE: Wa-wait, wa-wait, wa-wait. Let me U.S. troops get one thing straight, Kevin. We do have a positive ID of one of the alleged perpetrators?
MILLER: When questioned today at the forum at the NC Central, Michael Nifong did say that the accuser has identified one person.
GRACE: OK. Go ahead. That`s news to me. Go ahead.
MILLER: In addition to that, Nancy, he did say that -- as you just heard on the clip, that 70 to 85 percent of rape cases are prosecuted without DNA. He did say that he will continue on with this case, and additional DNA testing is under way and he experts those results back. There is speculation now that a grand jury will hear this case, possibly Monday.
And on kind of an unrelated note, Bob Bennett has been retained by a new group formed by the Committee to Protect Duke Families. And we now hear that the Reverend Al Sharpton will be joining us Sunday for a protest outside of 610 North Buchanan Boulevard.
GRACE: Wait a minute. OK, hold on. The Committee to Protect Duke Families. Maybe I`m bass-ackwards here, but what Duke family has been attacked?
MILLER: Well, again, Nancy, from what I understand, this committee was formed and has retained the services of Bob Bennett to protect the interests of people that support Duke, former members, financial contributors and alumni and former athletes.
GRACE: But what does that have to do with this case, Kevin? I mean, why are they bringing in Bob Bennett? I`m sorry, maybe I`ve got a disconnect. But how does -- how do benefactors and contributors to Duke University -- why do they need protection? This is an alleged gang rape case. Where does that play in?
MILLER: Bennett feels that, again, that cooler heads need to prevail, and this case has been tried in the media and not the courtroom.
GRACE: We don`t even have an indictment yet! OK. Thank you. Hold on just a moment.
Richard Herman, did you hear what Kevin Miller said? He is explaining what happened at the forum today. We`re about to play that for you. Well, last week, Richard Herman, you were telling me in an e-mail, No DNA, no case, you can`t make a positive ID. Ruh-roh-uh (ph).
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy...
GRACE: She has made an ID.
HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, in this world...
GRACE: Hey, Richard!
HERMAN: ... "CSI" on every station on television, this jury`s going to want to see some science in this case. I have the application for the search warrant here that I`m reading today -- 30-minute sexual assault in a small bathroom by three men, where she was being choked, where she scraped some man`s arm to try to get away. There`s no DNA in her, on her, or in the bathroom. Come on, Nancy!
GRACE: Maybe we`re reading two different search warrant returns, but there is, in fact, DNA from two young men in a towel found in that bathroom. And what could be in the towel? Let me think!
HERMAN: Where they live, Nancy, where they live, in their house. But let me ask you, do you think your Nancy Grace groupies will be interested in time-stamped photos of her entering the house that night, scratched up, bruised, drunk, passing out, and then the time-stamped photos after the alleged incident took place, where she was on her cell phone smiling! Smiling, Nancy! Come on!
GRACE: You know what, Richard? We talked about this last night on the show with a computer expert, who explained the intricacies of time- stamping on cell phones and digicams. And also, I`m very interested in why someone thought to preserve evidence, before and after shots. And I don`t know about any Nancy Grace groupies, but I can tell you who does matter, Richard Herman, and that will be a jury of 12. But let`s kick it off next week not with a petite jury but with a jury called the grand jury, where the real evidence will come out.
But hold on just a moment. We`ve talked a lot about what the elected district attorney had to say at a forum. He is insisting on not calling it a press conference. It was a forum. Take a listen to this, Richard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot has been said in the press, particularly by some attorneys yesterday, about, This case should go away. I hope that you will understand, by the fact that I am here this morning, that my presence here means that this case is not going away.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The thing about DNA is not only its -- that it can point the finger to who the guilty people are, but it can also tell us who the guilty people are not. And it`s important to remember that there are 46 members of the Duke University lacrosse team who were asked to submit to giving samples for DNA testing, and only three of those people are alleged to have been involved in the assault. So until we identify all three of those people, that means that some of these young men are going to be walking around under a cloud, where innocent people are being thought that perhaps they are guilty just because of their association.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. I understand that the district attorney says there`s going to be more DNA testing. You mean additional testing on the current DNA, on the current samples taken from the rape kit, or additional people being tested? I mean, what he does mean by that?
MILLER: He was questioned today at the forum, Nancy, and it was by a criminology student, who questioned him about the DNA. As you`ve talked about on your show, there are different types of tests. From his answer there at the forum at NC Central, Nancy, he said that the current DNA is undergoing other tests. Mayor Bell here, mayor of Durham, can correct me if I`m wrong on that, but that`s what we came away with, that the current DNA, he has enough to have further tests.
GRACE: So you`re saying with the current DNA, he has enough to perform additional tests, Kevin? Is that what I just heard?
MILLER: Yes.
GRACE: OK.
MILLER: And that is happening right now.
GRACE: To Dr. Warner Spitz, forensic pathologist. Everyone, we`re about to go to the mayor of Durham, North Carolina. Dr. Spitz, it`s my understanding as to how DNA is used -- and I prosecuted cases long before we had DNA in rape cases, so believe me, it can be done and it can be done successfully without DNA. Doctor, it`s my understanding you take the sample and then you regenerate it until you have a strand or a line of DNA to make a comparison. Is that how it works?
DR. WARNER SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s correct. Well, you can amplify it.
GRACE: All right, amplify it. OK.
SPITZ: And then you have a small sample with more potency to obtain a result.
GRACE: Now, what additional DNA tests could they be talking about, Dr. Spitz?
SPITZ: Well, they may be doing mitochondrial DNA or some other type of DNA. But my attitude is if the DNA that they run, which is probably nuclear DNA, the usual type of testing that we do -- the -- if that is negative when there are three people who are donors potentially, there will be no amplification that`s going to yield much of anything.
GRACE: OK. OK, what about this, Dr. Spitz? What about additional testing to determine whether a lubricant or evidence -- trace evidence of latex was there in the vaginal results, to indicate condoms were used?
SPITZ: Well, I don`t know -- I don`t know if that is even possible...
GRACE: Really?
SPITZ: ... to test for latex in a vaginal sample.
GRACE: So doctor, are you telling me that the perpetrators, if they had used condoms, there may be no way to determine that?
SPITZ: No. I`m not saying that DNA is the only possibility to use in this case. They may -- if she is able to identify people, then maybe there are other ways to identify those three, but maybe not.
GRACE: And another question, Dr. Warner Spitz, as long as we`re talking about DNA -- deoxyribonucleic acid -- we know a rape kit was taken from the alleged victim. We know, at that time, pubic combings were taken from her. Now, if the alleged perpetrators had transferred pubic hair, will we be able to get DNA from it?
SPITZ: Presumably, yes. If there -- I hope they did take a rape kit. Usually, when a rape case is suspected, even microscopic examination is done on possibly finding sperm cells. That`s done right away. But if they`ve already done DNA, then that falls by the wayside. The presence of a positive DNA sample speaks for itself. The absence may point to a condom, may point to no ejaculation.
GRACE: OK. And Dr. Spitz, before we are joined by the mayor, our special guest tonight, if there are pubic hairs from the alleged perpetrators, could that explain the delay or the request for additional DNA, in that they may be using these hairs to get mitochondrial DNA?
SPITZ: Yes.
GRACE: OK. I want to go now to our special guest. Mayor William Bell is joining us. He is the mayor of Durham, North Carolina. Sir, thank you for being with us.
MAYOR WILLIAM BELL, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA: Good to be here, Nancy. Good to see you.
GRACE: Tell me about the forum today. What did it accomplish?
BELL: Well, I think it gave the public an opportunity to express their concerns, ask questions. What we`ve said all along, we want to make sure the legal process is thorough, that an investigation is thorough, and no hidden agendas. It gave the public an opportunity to hear from the chancellor of NCCU, myself as mayor, one of our other colleagues on the city council, two of the students from NCCU and Duke University, and of course, the DA, Mike Nifong.
GRACE: Mayor, NCCU -- is that where the forum was held?
BELL: That`s right. Chancellor Ammons had called me the day before yesterday and asked if I might be able to come to a public meeting that he was having and to be in Duke Auditorium, and indicated later that I would be one of the panelists. He had also raised some questions with me, and I suggested that he might speak to the district attorney. I called Mike Nifong and suggested that he call the chancellor directly. He did, and as part of that, the chancellor invited him to be part of the panel, and he accepted and he was there today.
GRACE: Now, NCCU -- is that where the young lady, the alleged victim, goes to school?
BELL: I`m sorry. I`m taking too much advantage -- North Carolina Central University, NCCU, is a predominantly black school in Durham, North Carolina, a state-supported school, and that is the school where the young lady who was the alleged victim attends.
GRACE: Mayor, maybe I`m out of style, but as I recall prosecuting rape cases, a lady comes in, she has the rape kit done. There`s sign of vaginal trauma. She`s disheveled. She makes an outcry. The facts here are allegedly that she has bruises about the face and the throat, that her fingernails had been torn off, that she leaves behind her pocketbook, her cell phone and her money, including one shoe.
Well, typically, you go make an arrest, especially when you have an eyewitness identification. Then, before trial, you get your DNA results. What`s the hold -- up, Mayor? Does that concern you, that an arrest has not been made?
BELL: That does not concern me. And let me say again, I have confidence in our police force in doing their investigation. And I have confidence in the DA. Mike is not someone that just came to this office. He`s been in this office almost 30 years as an assistant DA, so he knows what has to be done, and I`m sure he`s taking appropriate steps to make sure that, one, we don`t want to jeopardize any individual`s rights in this case, be the ones that are alleged to be suspects or the victim herself. So I think he`s taking the appropriate steps...
GRACE: Well, Mayor...
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: ... we`ll get through the legal process.
GRACE: Mayor, today...
BELL: I`m listening.
GRACE: And I`m all on -- I`m all on the district attorney`s side here. I`m listening to what he has to say. I`m open. I`m anxious. I`m willing to learn more. But he pointed out that, walking around are these young men, who are actually innocent, that has this cloud hanging over them. Well, what about the young lady?
BELL: Well...
GRACE: Why are we so concerned about everybody but her?
BELL: No, that`s -- quite the contrary. In fact, if you had been at the forum, you would have seen that that was one of the things that the students spoke very much about. And I can tell you that the chancellor of NCCU, in a meeting that I attended with he, President Brodhead and some other African-American members of this community, spoke very, very emphatic about that, that there`s a victim, we shouldn`t forget that there`s a victim, who`s a young lady. And more important, she`s a mother and she`s a student. So she has not been forgotten in this whole process.
GRACE: Mayor Bell, what has been the most difficult thing for you to wrangle with during all of this?
BELL: Quite frankly, probably the more difficult thing is the fact that we`ve got so much of the national media coming in here not giving a clear -- a true picture about what the city of Durham is all about. Durham is a city of about 210,000 persons. It`s the fourth largest city in the state of North Carolina. It`s a city where the Research Triangle Park is home to Fortune 500 companies like GE, IBM, GlaxoSmithKline, and et cetera. We`re a city that transformed ourselves from tobacco, textiles into a city of medicine. And we have an economy that`s doing well. We have a very rich African-American heritage in this community...
GRACE: Well, Mayor -- Mayor, no one is...
BELL: Don`t stop me, Nancy...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... what a great city it is. It`s a fine city.
BELL: It sure is.
GRACE: But I`m concerned, sir, about this particular case.
BELL: And let me tell you, we`re concerned about it, also. And if we focus on that -- that`s what we want to do, not focus on other negativities that the national media has portrayed about the city of Durham, North Carolina.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have always been advocates that you prosecute these cases on evidence, and you use other material evidence, not just DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They haven`t been convicted, but 30-something kids are remaining silent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Today, the district attorney came out swinging, Nifong, the elected district attorney, in response to the defense spin cycle -- and it was an instant spin cycle, I might add -- that with no DNA, there is no case. Take a listen to the elected DA, Nifong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I have been criticized by both sides of this case. There have been people who`ve said that I should have given this case up a long time ago, and there are people who`ve said that I should have already indicted, moved against somebody with some charges. The fact is that this case is proceeding the way a case should proceed. I am trying to determine exactly what the evidence is that we have to proceed on and to assemble that evidence before anyone is charged. But I -- as I said earlier, I assure you by my presence here, this case is not over. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me now, Rony Camille, the assistant editor with "Campus Echo," an NCCU newspaper. Thank you for being with us, Rony.
RONY CAMILLE, ASST. EDITOR, "CAMPUS ECHO": Thank you for you having me.
GRACE: Rony, what happened at this forum on campus today?
CAMILLE: Well, basically, the panel spoke, introduced themselves and issued a statement, each one of them, the mayor, the councilman, the DA and the student representative from each school. And then afterwards, members of the NCCU community came up, commented and asked questions. I, myself, also asked a question.
GRACE: What was your question?
CAMILLE: I asked -- oh, what was...
GRACE: Rony, you knew you were going to be cross-examined!
CAMILLE: Yes, well, basically, I asked the DA, since he`s running for reelection, what is he telling his constituents in Durham County. And I asked the student -- the Duke student government president what is the SCA`s plan of action for the next step, as a student body.
GRACE: OK. And I want to find out what the campus response is. This is one of your students. What is the response to attacks on the victim now going on and the spin cycle the defense just put her through?
CAMILLE: It`s been tense. Today -- especially after this forum, Nancy, it was very, very tense, especially at the end, when one of the -- I think -- I don`t know if she was a community member or a faculty member, yelled at the DA. And he kind of yelled back and...
GRACE: Well, what did she yell at him?
CAMILLE: She actually is going on on your monitor now. She was saying, Why was Duke Medical Center involved with the...
GRACE: Rape kit.
CAMILLE: Yes, with the rape kit. Exactly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any time that you have a victim who can identify her assailant, then what you have is a case that the judge must let go to the jury, which means that, in this situation, I would expect that a jury would get to evaluate the evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He`s talking about credibility, her word versus the alleged attackers` word. And in this case, without DNA, it all boils down to credibility. Who will the jury believe? That`s where circumstantial evidence comes in, the circumstances surrounding the alleged rape.
Let`s go straight out to Ann Marie (ph) in Utah. Hi, Ann Marie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Are you there, dear? Uh-oh! Lost her.
Elizabeth, do you know what her question -- her question is, What about the girl that was with the student-turned-stripper? What about it -- thanks, Elizabeth. What about it, Kevin Miller? You`re with WPTF radio. What can you tell me about the woman that allegedly went along that evening?
MILLER: As far as the second dancer or the accuser, Nancy?
GRACE: Second dancer.
MILLER: OK. We don`t know much about her. We do hear her on the second 911 tape, and her name is Kim.
GRACE: Well, you know, to Rahul Manchanda, defense attorney. A rape case can be made with circumstantial evidence, such as bruising, the nails that cracked off. Do you want to tell me, Rahul, that not one of these lacrosse players is going to come forward and speak to the district attorney?
RAHUL MANCHANDA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, I mean, the DNA development today is enormously -- enormously monumental to this case. The standard of reasonable doubt has gone up since DNA has come into the picture. And the Innocence Project, headed by Barry Scheck, has freed a lot of people based on this. So you know, rape is an enormously messy crime, and I find it very difficult to believe there is absolutely nothing to indicate that any bodily fluids were exchanged.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE NIFONG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA: Certainly, I have heard the criticism from many people that if the situation were reversed, I think it`s usually said something like, if this were a white girl and the focus was on the NC Central basketball team, they would all be in jail right now. And I understand that that is a sentiment in the community from some people, but I just want you to know that that is not the way I conduct business.
It never has been. I have been in the district attorney`s office for more than 27-and-a-half years. And I challenge you to find a single incident which is well-documented. I have over 300 jury trials. My position on this is very clear. There has never been a case, under me, that the decision was made based on race. And I will tell you that there never will be such a case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see the alleged district attorney there in Raleigh- Durham speaking out to accusations that racial tensions have played a role in his decision not to arrest or indict at this point in the lacrosse rape scandal. And when you take a look at his record, it is a very impressive record. I want to go back out to the mayor, our special guest, the mayor of Durham, North Carolina Mayor William Bell. Mayor, again, thank you for being with us. Mayor, have you met with this young lady yet?
BELL: No, I don`t -- I don`t know the young lady, I don`t know the name of the young lady. Just one correction, the DA is the DA of Durham, North Carolina, not Raleigh-Durham.
GRACE: Oh thank you. Mayor, is it true the young lady feared reprisal and left town?
BELL: I have no information of that sort, none whatsoever.
GRACE: Do you have knowledge that she`s still living there?
BELL: I do not. I do not know the young lady. I know -- I don`t know where she lives. I know nothing about her, other than what the media has reported.
GRACE: Mayor, are you concerned that people are rushing to a judgment in this case?
BELL: Well, let me say this, you -- people are going to form opinions and that`s just the nature of people in any particular case. What I`m proud of is this community has reacted in a very normal way, as far as I`m concerned. They`ve raised questions. We`ve given them forums to allow them to raise questions. The PTF does an excellent job of that. You saw a forum at NCCU, the city council and county commission. People have an opportunity to speak. That`s what is doing. I`m not sure that people have rushed to judgment, so to speak. We are trying to avert that. Obviously people have formed opinions and that`s to be expected.
GRACE: Mayor what was it you were trying to accomplish with that forum today?
BELL: Well, again, it wasn`t my forum. It was Chancellor Ammonds`, NCCU chancellor`s forum. Again, it was an opportunity for the students and persons that attended speak and to be heard, and likewise to receive some type of response from those that were sitting on the panel.
GRACE: Mayor, thank you so much for being with us, the mayor of Durham, Mayor William Bell. Straight to Clark Goldband our producer, Clark, let`s talk about the incidence of false sex assault reporting.
CLARK GOLDBAND, CNN PRODUCER: Well Nancy, since these charges have surfaced in the past few weeks, we`ve heard the defense and all kinds of defense attorneys, especially on this program, scream false reporting happens all the time, there`s tons of charges. Well we went to the books and it`s not as high as some defense attorneys would lead us to believe. FBI has --
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Why would the FBI know about it? They don`t even handle violent crimes.
GOLDBAND: Right, well they compile, Nancy, every year the FBI compiles a list of all the crimes in the U.S., according to them, and they list the percentages.
GRACE: According to them. All right go ahead.
GOLDBAND: According to the FBI. So, take that however you will.
GRACE: I`ll take that with a box of salt. Go ahead.
GOLDBAND: As you wish. FBI, 8 percent, sexual assault counselors, they have that number pegged at around 2 percent. Now why would someone report false rape? Here are some of the main reasons we could find, to create an alibi. Well, I don`t know, Nancy, I don`t really see that in this case. Revenge. Do we know of any personal vendettas? Not so clear. To get attention, could be possible but we don`t have anything to pull us one way or another.
GRACE: She`s totally run from every camera, she reportedly has even moved out of her home. She`s not seeking attention.
GOLDBAND: Well I guess she`s not trying to seek attention then, just hiding.
GRACE: What`s her other alternative?
GOLDBAND: Well Nancy, the last is for cash, cold hard cash, money. And we don`t know of anything -- you pay me this.
GRACE: Okay. I`ve been thinking about that, old on just a moment. Richard Herman, you`re a veteran defense attorney, I`m going to give you another crack. Richard, if she was trying to do this to get money out of these obviously and most likely wealthy college students that have come to Duke University, you know that ain`t cheap at Duke University, why would she go to the district attorney for Pete`s sake? Why wouldn`t she just try to blackmail them into giving her money? Why would you walk into the police station if you were trying to blackmail?
HERMAN: Nancy, we`re just speculating and we don`t know --
GRACE: Just, if you could just answer, money as a motive for false sex report.
HERMAN: Okay. If she falsely reports a crime here and any of these gentlemen get nervous and decide to make any type of plea bargain, that conviction could be used for summary judgment in a civil proceeding and then the only issue would be how much money is she going to recover. That`s why.
GRACE: Well, my point is, why would you walk right into the spider`s web if you are trying to do blackmail, why would you go to the police?
HERMAN: Well, because that`s the easiest way, Nancy. There was 46 guys in the house, what was she going to do, write letters to these guys? She can`t do it.
GRACE: Okay, Richard -- All right, Caryn Stark, psychologist, that completely does not make any sense. Any of the motivations for false reporting that are accepted in psychological circles, they don`t apply here so far.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: You are absolutely right, Nancy. And I don`t understand this whole thing about money, what the point is with blackmailing a whole bunch of lacrosse players. I also want to make the point --
GRACE: You can always, you know, claim an attack had occurred for a civil lawsuit. Many people thought that`s what the alleged victim in the Kobe Bryant case was doing. But here, she has run away from the media. And she walked right into the -- the first thing, had someone call 911 at the Kroeger.
STARK: And she`ll also, if you think about this, Nancy, she knew going in there that she was going to get a tremendous amount of attention. These are 48 players. This is a university. So, it doesn`t make a lot of sense that she would be having that in mind.
GRACE: It`s not like they`re an NBA star with millions of dollars at their disposal. Interesting. Clark, go ahead.
GOLDBAND: Nancy, so these are the four reasons that we see for some defense attorneys would lead you to believe why people report false rape. None of these seem applicable in this case. That`s my personal opinion and I think you share that same opinion.
GRACE: Back to Rahul Manchanda, the defense attorney. Rahul, you heard the alleged excuses for false sex assault reporting. Comment?
MANCHANDA: Well I didn`t see mental instability up there. That`s certainly a factor, I think that might come into the attention factor, but the reality is --
GRACE: Rahul, do you see any (INAUDIBLE) of evidence, even a shred, that this young lady, student-turned-stripper supporting two kids has mental instability?
MANCHANDA: We don`t know what the record says, but at the same time - -
GRACE: I asked you, do you know of anything, why would you just throw that out there? Isn`t that something they call -- what is that, slander, yeah.
MANCHANDA: Well, like I said, there`s many factors, many reasons why somebody would do something like that. I`m not saying particularly her but in general.
GRACE: Oh no, not her, not the woman we`re talking about. Some other woman, some pretend woman, okay. Go ahead.
MANCHANDA: There are many reasons why somebody would do something like that. But my question is, in a situation like this, rape is an enormously messy crime. And I can`t find any reason why no DNA was exchanged, no bodily fluids were exchanged, the crime scene is completely clean. That doesn`t make much sense to me.
GRACE: You know what, that`s an excellent point and it`s a huge blow to the state. Let`s go to Doctor Warner Spitz, forensic pathologist. Dr. Spitz, how can a rape be affected without any DNA?
SPITZ: Well, it`s difficult. You mentioned a rape kit, a rape kit was taken. And if they do have hair, they would be possibly DNA obtained through amplification of that DNA. Condom might prevent semen being in the lady. But hair would -- might still be there. There might be DNA on her jewelry. There might be DNA on some buttons on her clothing.
GRACE: Okay. To Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, do we have any idea what the substance is in the towel found in the bathroom where she says the rape occurred that has the DNA of two young men on it?
MILLER: Right now, reports are unclear about that, Nancy. One thing I would like to add that a lot of folks have missed is this forum at NC Central was pretty heated, and that`s been under-reported. The prosecutor fired back but he was fired on by a lot of people in the community that were highly upset that think this girl is not getting a fair shake.
GRACE: Let`s go to Michelle in Alabama, hello Michelle.
MICHELLE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
MICHELLE: I was wondering, the district attorney doesn`t get anywhere with the DNA evidence, is he going to indict all 46 or can he indict all 46?
GRACE: Oh, highly, highly doubtful and to Rahul Manchanda, under our jurisdiction system just sanding by and not volunteering to help is not a cause for a criminal charge. I think I`ve got Rahul with me, Rahul are you there? Okay. No Rahul, I`ll throw it to Richard Herman. There`s no way to indict the others that just stood by and watched, Richard?
HERMAN: Absolutely not, Nancy. But as a foreign topic, how about if none of the 46 gentlemen came forward because no rape occurred? How about that concept?
GRACE: You are just not letting it go, are you?
HERMAN: No. I love you.
GRACE: Well you know what, with no DNA, you may be right on. Hey very quickly, is trial 101 here, also, the possibility of charging this as a hate crime. You know, in most jurisdictions, that adds to the penalty. To Kevin Miller, has there been any talk of whether this will be prosecuted as a hate crime against either a female or a minority female?
MILLER: Nancy, that`s a very good point that was asked today at the forum and I did ask Mike Nifong that when I interviewed him. He said because of the charge, first degree rape, you can`t really add anything more. That has the most punitive damages so a hate crime is not necessary and adds another burden of proof bringing in the FBI. So, no hate crime here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Neil Entwistle`s second court appearance was less than 10 minutes. He spoke not a word as the double murder charges were read.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- did assault and beat Rachel Entwistle with intent to murder her by such assault and did you kill and murder --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A similar indictment charging him with the murder of his infant daughter, Lillian also was read out loud.
Entwistle will continue to be held without bail in segregation at the Middlesex jail.
We are taking you up the eastern seaboard from Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina to New England. Great Britain citizen and now U.S. prison inmate Neil Entwistle, the 27 year old is charged with murder, murder one, two counts in the shooting death of his wife and his 9-month-old baby girl. Let`s go straight out to Norman Miller with "Metrowest Daily News." Norman, what happened in court today?
NORMAN MILLER, REPORTER, METROWEST DAILY NEWS: Well, he, through his attorney he pleaded not guilty to all the charges. Both to the murders of his wife and baby, as well as gun and ammunition charges.
GRACE: You said he pled. Did he speak or did his lawyer speak?
MILLER: No, he pleaded through his attorney. He didn`t speak at all.
GRACE: And what was his demeanor in court, Norman?
MILLER: He just -- he seemed casual. He didn`t --
GRACE: Casual?
MILLER: Well, he didn`t look upset. He didn`t look at the family at all. He basically kept his eyes forward, looking at his attorney and looking at the judge.
GRACE: You mean, her family was there?
MILLER: Yeah, there was about 14 family -- members of the family and friends who were there as part of the arraignment.
GRACE: To private investigator and former police Chief Tom Shamshak in court today as well, welcome back, Tom. Tom any surprises in court today?
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: No, Nancy. It was a similar experience for any defendant facing charges similar to what Neil Entwistle was facing today. It was short, he was well groomed, very quiet, never even looked over at the family.
GRACE: And joining -- uh-oh, thank you, Elizabeth, there is the defense wheel of fortune. What is it going to be, you`ve got the possibility he may claim his wife committed suicide. Maybe it was self- defense. Maybe it`s temporary insanity. Maybe it was insanity. Did we get any idea, Tom, which way the defense is headed? Have they asked for a psychological evaluation?
SHAMSHAK: Attorney Weinstein didn`t reveal any defense strategy today. There was a bill of particulars that was filed and the government is still steadfast that Neil Entwistle perpetrated this crime.
GRACE: Joining us is Sheriff James DiPaola, he is the Middlesex County Sheriff`s Office. Sheriff, thank you for being with us. You are also overseeing the jail where Entwistle is held, correct?
JAMES DIPAOLA, MIDDLESEX COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: That`s correct, Nancy.
GRACE: Sheriff, thank you for being with us tonight. I understand you met with Entwistle today?
DIPAOLA: Just moments ago I was upstairs to check on his well-being before I came down to do the show with you. And very similar to his actions in court, his actions while he`s been detained with us has been that of a very calm individual. Never mentioning certainly the case and just existing every single day.
GRACE: He`s calm. He`s not worried?
DIPAOLA: He`s not exhibiting any type of overly -- overly concern. I mean, he`s -- he talks about, you know, being, you know -- his parents and his parents dealing with this situation the way they have to deal with it and he says that he`s just trying to deal with it the way he has to deal with it.
GRACE: Sheriff, isn`t it terrible when you are accused of murdering your wife and your baby and your parents have to live with that?
DIPAOLA: I imagine, you know, any type of crime that any of our children are charged with, that certainly the family then becomes certainly part of the media coverage on that and certainly, along with everybody else, become victims sometimes, also.
GRACE: Has he had any visitors and, if so, who?
DIPAOLA: No, Nancy, he hasn`t had any visitors at all. And he hasn`t had any phone calls. The only contact he`s had is with his attorney. And he is able to communicate with his family through the attorney.
GRACE: With our special guest sheriff James DiPaola, to Joe Flaherty. This is Rachel Susan Entwistle`s family spokesperson. Joe, thank you for being with us. I understand that this Sunday would have been the baby`s first birthday.
JOSEPH FLAHERTY, FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Yes, Nancy, that`s correct. It`s, again, been a tough couple of days, Sunday was Lillian`s birthday and, of course, Joe and Priscilla Matarazzo and Rachel`s brother Jerome miss Rachel and Lillian Rose every minute of every day.
GRACE: We`re showing you shots that came out of the courtroom today, exclusive video of the formal arraignment of 27-year-old Neil Entwistle through his lawyer he pleads not guilty.
Quick break, everyone, I want to remind you Milwaukee Police on trial for a civilian beating. We`re almost in verdict watch 3:00 to 5:00 eastern "Court TV." Let`s stop tonight to remember Marine Lance Corporal Stephen L. Phillips, 27 of Chesapeake Virginia, killed in combat in Iraq. He was deployed about a year. This young man remembered by all as always having a smile on his face. Steven L. Phillips, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Neil Entwistle on the 20th day of January in the year of 2006 in the county of Middlesex aforesaid did assault and beat Rachel Entwistle with intent to murder her and by such assault indeed did kill and murder Rachel Entwistle. To this indictment, how do you plead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ask the court judge we plead not guilty.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
GRACE: That is 27-year-old Neil Entwistle in court today. His attorney pleading not guilty for him. To psychologist Caryn Stark. Caryn, what do you make of his demeanor?
STARK: Well, Nancy, he so much fits the kind of sociopath profile and we want to assume that he`s innocent but he doesn`t come across sympathetic. He reminds me of Scott Peterson, he`s so well groomed, and he seems nonchalant, you expect him to start talking about baseball scores any second instead of the fact that his wife and child have been murdered.
GRACE: And speaking of being calm, cool and collected, in court documents, we learned tonight that, when he got to Great Britain he told his friends that he had discovered his wife and baby dead, that he had grieved privately with Rachel`s family then felt left out and flew to Great Britain. Not exactly the way the facts were jiving up according to the prosecution. To Clark Goldband, tell me about the jail.
GOLDBAND: Well Nancy, he is in the jail in Cambridge, Massachusetts, that`s in the county of Middlesex, in Massachusetts and he will be dining this evening on chicken nuggets with sweet and sour sauce, chips, chocolate cake and fruit drink. We tried to confirm, no word if that`s fruit punch, Kool-Aid or fruit soda.
GRACE: Okay, Elizabeth, do I still have the sheriff with me? Sheriff, do they have internet access, law library or exercise room at your facility?
DIPAOLA: He does not have access to any of that except some books from the library. And the books are just books that they just come by with a cart and whatever`s there, he`s reading. And he`s also reading the bible.
GRACE: Sheriff, it`s been a real pleasure to have you tonight. I want to thank you for being with us, sir.
DIPAOLA: My pleasure, Nancy.
GRACE: But I want to thank all of my guests and tonight, as always, our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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