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Nancy Grace
6 Bodies Found in Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Aired April 13, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Police working overtime tonight as of all places deeply religious Amish country, Pennsylvania. Rocked by violent crime, six bodies discovered in a home in a highly respected neighborhood. Do police have a suspect? And if so, what is the motive? And tonight, Natalee Holloway`s father taking your calls.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news out of Pennsylvania Amish country, six bodies wrapped in sheets and blankets stumbled upon in a quiet, unassuming residence, the scene highly disturbing, a challenge to even the most veteran crime scene tech. Who and why are the questions tonight.
And also, with us Natalee Holloway`s father. And on both cases tonight, we are taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An arrest has been made in the deaths at 81 East Main Street.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect now charged with six counts of criminal homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An instrument was recovered, and it will be analyzed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our six victims are identified as follows: Emily Wise, Wanda Wise, Arlene Wise, Skyler Wise, Jesse James Wise, Chance Wise, a male aged 5. In police custody at this time and charged with six counts of criminal homicide is Jesse Dee Wise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to WHTM-TV reporter David Vagnoni. David, what happened?
DAVID VAGNONI, WHTM-TV: Well, Nancy, this is a really complicated case. There`s a lot that went into the police investigation. I can tell you the latest on this is this community is still very much in shock. As you have mentioned, this is quiet Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. This is very much the heart of Amish country, and yet six people found dead inside the home behind me in Leola, Pennsylvania. To give you some idea, to give you a very -- we`re about an hour-and-a-half west of the city of Philadelphia.
Six people found inside the basement, many of them wrapped in blankets and in sheets. Blood found all around this house. One man is in custody who is related to the victims that were found inside.
GRACE: David, let me fire a couple of investigative questions at you, if you know the answers at this very early juncture tonight. Breaking news out of Amish country, Pennsylvania, six bodies discovered in a residential area, in a home.
To David Vagnoni, were all six of the bodies covered?
VAGNONI: It`s our understanding that they all were, but again, police really not releasing all the details.
GRACE: OK.
VAGNONI: The court documents we have managed to get our hands on gave us some information, but there was just one initial court appearance today, and the suspect did not make any real statements to tell us what the intent might have been. Initially, we believed...
GRACE: OK, back to the question...
VAGNONI: ... that all the suspects (SIC) were underneath some sheets and blankets, correct.
GRACE: Right. Were they all in the basement, to your knowledge?
VAGNONI: Yes, all were in the basement. There was a report last night that one had been found outside, stabbed to death, but all six, we learned this morning, were found in the basement.
GRACE: You mentioned one had allegedly been stabbed to death. That leads me to my next question. Police initially reported five bodies found, now six. Why the inconsistency?
VAGNONI: That`s a great question. We could not have that question answered today at the press conference. Again, all the bodies were found inside. Nobody was found outside. We understand that three of the people that were the victims were strangled. The other three were beaten to death. That`s as extensive as the information we received today.
GRACE: You know, that`s very interesting as far as MO goes. Since we don`t know which were the victims that were strangled and which were beaten to death, I would be willing to wager that the younger victims were strangled and the older victims that could actually resist were beaten to death.
Now, very quickly -- David Vagnoni with us, WHTM-TV reporter. Could you describe the scene, as best as you can? I understand -- and for those of you that are listening, it`s a very disturbing crime scene -- that there were actually bone fragments found, brain matter found, blood, not droplets but spatter, such as high-velocity spatter from an intense bludgeoning.
What can you tell us about the crime scene? We`re trying to pick it apart and get clues.
VAGNONI: Well, that`s right. This is a scary scene. This is a horrific scene. There`s not a number of adjectives you can use that would describe the situation the best. As you said, blood splattered around the walls of this house. You would be led to believe there was a struggle. The youngest victim 5 years old, the oldest victim, the grandmother of the suspect in custody, the grandmother is 64 years old. So a scary scene on the inside.
Now, tonight, at this hour, Nancy, if you can see past us, a peace vigil is being held here, this community coming together to at least get behind the family and offer some support in a crime that there are many questions yet to be answered here.
GRACE: Another quick question. David, I understand that all six victims were murdered almost a week ago. Why is this just being discovered?
VAGNONI: Well, the district attorney in Lancaster County believes, and he told nuts press conference earlier, that all of this happened sometime this past weekend. And to take you back in time, the homeowner had been out of town. He asked a family friend over the last couple of days to check in on his family because he had not heard from them. So when the family friend gets here, he understands something`s the matter. He calls police. They get to the scene, and that`s how all this investigation breaks out.
But this a quiet neighborhood. This is, again, Amish country. You wouldn`t expect to see this here, so why would anybody check and see if there had been a murder here? No one would have thought that it happened. That`s why this went on for so long without this information coming out.
GRACE: Take a listen to what one of the witnesses who actually discovered these bodies had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) odor, started walking down the stairs. I mean, I turned the light on and started walking down the stairs. And first thing I seen was Arlene, my aunt. And then I beet down a little bit just to see, and I seen the baby down in there, laying on his face. And that`s all I needed to see. I ran out and I told the police that they was all down there dead.
And when I seen the baby -- you know, I seen the one body, but it was -- it didn`t kick in yet. But when I seen the baby, he was facing me, and it felt like somebody hit me in the chest with a bag of sand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To David Vagnoni. When he is referring to the baby, who is the baby? How old is the baby? Tell me the ages of all six victims.
VAGNONI: We have the ages of some of the victims. I haven`t gone through the entire criminal complaint...
GRACE: OK.
VAGNONI: ... but we can tell you the baby that he`s probably referring to is 5-year-old Chance, a kindergartener, went to school locally. Again, the ages range from 5 years old, the youngest, to the oldest, 64 years old. The youngest, 5, being a cousin of the suspect, the oldest, 64, being the grandmother of the suspect.
GRACE: We`ve got the grandmother at age 64 -- in descending order -- next victim, 45, 43. 19, 17, and just 5 years old.
Again, out to Brett Lovelace now, reporter with "The Lancaster Intelligencer." This is in the heart of Amish country. And correct me if I`m wrong, Brett, but typically, Amish shun the outside world simply because they want to ward off any intrusion of worldly evil. This is the last place you would think there would be a mass murder.
BRETT LOVELACE, "LANCASTER INTELLIGENCER": Well, Nancy, that`s a very good point. There`s actually an Amish family that lives two doors down from where the crime scene happened, from the family. And that family moved here in November. They lived in New Holland, which is just east of here, but they also had roots in Brooklyn, New York, and Virginia.
GRACE: To our producer Clark Goldband. There you see some video of Amish, riding still horses, shunning modern technology, many of them even shunning the use of buttons and modern kitchen aids. All worldly advances kept out of their tight-knit community.
Clark Goldband, what can you tell us?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, there are about 16,000 Amish people in the heart of Amish country, Nancy, which is in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. As you can see on the screen behind me, they keep a very simple way of life -- horse and buggy. Everyone stays out. They do their own thing. And you know what? They don`t bother anyone. They`re very against violence, as we said before.
And they also retain a sense of solidarity. They don`t really want to let anyone in, but they`re also not against anything going on in the outside world, as long as it does not infiltrate their community. Lancaster County, Nancy, also famous for an ice cream treat. Turkey Hill Ice Cream is made in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
GRACE: You know, it seems like such a pastoral, bucolic setting. I want to go to Dr. Ed Friedlander, chairman of the Department of Pathology at Kansas City University, of medicine and Biological sciences. Welcome, Doctor. Thank you for being with us. Doctor, let`s just get down to the brass tacks of the case. I`m already jumping ahead to the evidence. What can the autopsies of these victims show us?
DR. ED FRIEDLANDER, DEPT. OF PATHOLOGY, KANSAS CITY UNIVERSITY: Autopsy`s going to tell us how each of these people died, and it will also tell us anything else that may be pertinent about their overall health.
GRACE: You know, another question. Back it David Vagnoni. This home is a three-story white house. It`s a lovely home in a rural residential setting. I`m understanding that most, if not all, of the victims were down in the basement. I`m just trying to get the layout. Was there any forced entry? What can you tell me about the suspect as to his motivation? Was he breaking in? How is he related to these people?
VAGNONI: Well, depends on the relationship that you`re asking for. He was cousin for a couple of the victims. Again, he was the grandson of one of the victims, and he had a couple of aunts he`s also accused of killing. This is a white-picket-fence area, again, not an area that you would expect this to happen.
And there`s not a lot of information available on the suspect. We do understand that he does have a prior criminal record. We`re talking about some petty thefts, a couple of burglaries. We also understand he did have a court hearing coming up later on this month. That`s the only motivation that we can garner from police as a possibility.
During the interrogation, Nancy, he did confess, but that took so long that police didn`t even get to the motive stage, we`re told.
GRACE: To Ellie. Let`s talk about what David has just told us regarding his criminal record. Can you clarify anything for me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Well, we -- I just took a look through some of these documents on some of these past arrests. One of them, he broke into a church with a couple accomplices, caused $500 of damage...
GRACE: Death penalty!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... stole a pair of headphones. Another time, he broke into a business, stole a cash register, a cell phone, some antifreeze. Another...
GRACE: Petty crimes, very petty crimes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Another time, back in 2004, he allegedly broke into a business -- it was kind of a storage facility -- stole money, some snacks -- we`re talking chick-filet (ph), crackers, Bugles, snack items like that -- shoes, socks, other kind of things like that.
GRACE: OK, question. Did I read something in the record that said destruction of agricultural product?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Exactly. And...
GRACE: What was that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that is all related to these two times that he broke in and damages that were caused in the course of...
GRACE: Did he actually destroy any crops?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn`t sound like it to me.
GRACE: OK. You know, I want to go to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. Pat, so often when we have a murder suspect, people will say, Well, he`s never committed a crime like this before.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: That`s typical. Normally, a murderer does not get a chance to do it again, all right? They`re usually behind bars. So that is not uncommon.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: That`s right, Nancy. And what we -- I look at these as what I call "crap crimes." These are little crimes that show that somebody`s angry at world and he wants to keep pushing everybody else`s borders. You know, he wants to step over them and say, Look at what I can do.
I also want to point out something else, Nancy, about the whole area of Lancaster. It`s called Lancaster, actually, in Pennsylvania, not Lancaster, because that`s in California. But Lancaster, Pennsylvania, may be bucolic in the looks, but there is a tradition, actually, among the Amish called rumspringer (ph), which is when you`re 16 years old, you get to go out into regular society and experience it and then decide if you want to be Amish.
Well, in the old days, actually, they lost more people because they weren`t all that dissimilar to the neighbors, except for religion. But now the children are going out there and they`re finding -- they`re drinking and they`re doing drugs and they`re doing all kinds of stuff, and they`re saying, Whoa, after a while, this is too much, and they`re going back. So they`re actually losing less.
But this does bring us to a point that Lancaster is not as bucolic of all that, and that whole area. There`s a big problem with crystal meth up there. And I`m looking at this crime, I`m seeing a lot of overdrive, makes me wonder, do we have crystal meth involved in this, to have the anger -- I mean, we already had the anger from a psychopathic personality, but do we have it being fueled by crystal meth or something to that effect? It`ll be interesting to see.
GRACE: You know what? You know what? That is really interesting. I was doing a little research today about drugs, not necessarily drug use, but drug possession and to distribute amongst the Amish, a very -- not to the majority of the Amish, but a growing concern for them, who have remained for so many hundreds of years so pure as to the outside world.
But another thing you mentioned about crystal meth -- that is a very intriguing idea because -- let`s get down to it. J. Buzz Von Ornsteiner, our forensic clinical psychologist with us tonight, this is a mass murder. This is an incredible amount of rage for a guy that only had a few petty crimes under his belt. It does suggest the rage, the craziness caused by something like crystal meth. That stuff makes you crazy.
J. BUZZ VON ORNSTEINER, FORENSIC CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Any time we look at any kind of criminal behavior, any type of acting-out behavior, any kind of violent rage, we always want to couple that and try to get as much information on if there`s any substance abuse. Any time there`s criminal behavior, any time there`s acting-out behaviors, we look at the person`s background. Was he in school? Was he employed? How did he do in school? Is he a high school graduate?
All that information -- and his relationship to this family. Did he have a sense of love and belonging to this family, or were they rejecting him at this point? Were they saying, Enough is enough with your behavior? Those are the questions that I keep asking, Nancy.
GRACE: A clear and distinct relationship between the suspect tonight and six dead found in a lovely home in Amish country, Pennsylvania, Lancaster County.
Very quickly, we`ll all be back with the latest on that very disturbing discovery. But let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." North Carolina district attorney Mike Nifong defends his handling of the Duke University lacrosse team rape charges. He plans to present the case to a grand jury as early as Monday. Indictments fully expected.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. In the heart of Amish country, known for peace- loving ways, a very low crime rate, six people found massacred in their own homes.
Straight out to David Vagnoni with WHTM-TV. David, let`s talk about how the neighbors were alerted as to the possibility something had gone wrong. What happened?
VAGNONI: Well, again, to take you back -- we were speaking before, Nancy -- this all came about when the homeowner called a family friend to first come and check out the scene, that the homeowner was concerned because he hadn`t spoken to his family members in some days over an extended weekend. When that family friend got here to the scene, he was alarmed. Eventually, he did contact police, thinking something was the matter, and that`s when this investigation first began. This all happened yesterday afternoon, that police first found out, and later on yesterday afternoon when those in this neighborhood found out.
GRACE: Brett Lovelace with "Lancaster Intelligencer" -- Brett, wasn`t it the grandfather who was concerned about his wife?
LOVELACE: That`s right, Nancy. He was in New York. He works for a construction company that provides footers (ph) for skyscrapers, and his work takes him up to New York a lot. He also has roots in Brooklyn, New York. He had not heard from his wife or anyone in the family in the house since Friday. At that point, he had contacted a friend named Shawn Adams (ph). Shawn had come over yesterday afternoon, had checked the house, couldn`t find any type of activity, called the police. Him and a police officer went in the house. Shawn was the first individual that went down the basement steps and saw the bodies.
Now, this basement is a dirt-floor basement. It`s very much a cellar- type atmosphere. It`s about 5 by 12 feet in size and -- but it is large enough to stand up. All the bodies were wrapped up. Two of the bodies were wrapped together. That`s why, initially, police thought last night only five victims. As they were unwrapping the bodies from these comforters and bedsheets, they found six bodies.
And at that point, they spent all night doing the investigation at the crime scene. They`re still actually inside the house as we speak. And there`s about 100 people behind us now gathered for a vigil here that`s kind of sprung up in the last 30 minutes.
GRACE: Brett, I`ve noticed that there`s quite a crowd behind you. What are they doing?
LOVELACE: They`re holding candles. They`re hugging. There`s a lot of tears. Several of them have made T-shirt and signs kind of memorializing the victims, the family, and they`re just sharing stories. I spoke to several of them right before the show started and we went on the air, and they all said that, you know, this doesn`t make any sense. Even - - some of them even knew the suspect, and they said, yes, he had some brushes with the law, but he was a good guy. One person told me he even saw him at McDonald`s on Saturday. That would have been a day after the murders.
GRACE: Is the grandfather back?
LOVELACE: The grandfather is back. He is in New Holland, staying with, actually, Shawn Adams. He`s at his house right now. I`ve been told he plans to return to Brooklyn, New York, tomorrow afternoon to meet with a funeral director there to make arrangements. The burial is planned to be in Virginia, which is the ancestral home of the family.
GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An arrest has been made in the deaths at 81 East Main Street. In police custody at this time and charged with six counts of criminal homicide is Jesse Dee Wise, age 21, of 81 East Main Street in Leola. Our six victims are identified as follows: Emily Wise, age 64, of 81 East Main Street, Wanda Wise, age 45, 81 East Main Street in Leola, Arlene Wise, in her 30s, also of 81 East Main Street, Skyler Wise, a male, age 19, from 81 East Main Street, Chance Wise, a male, age 5, from 81 East Main Street, and Jesse James Wise, a male, age 17, from 81 East Main Street in Leola.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live tonight, there in Amish country, Pennsylvania, with the breaking news of today. Six bodies found in a lovely residential home there. The neighborhood, the community trying to make sense of it.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police searching for a missing pregnant woman, Claudia Altman (ph), 39, last seen April 4 at her home, Carrolwood (ph), Florida. Tonight, family and friends asking for your help to find Claudia, a mother of four.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has four kids that need her right now. These two are here. The other two are with some foster parents. And I really feel like these kids need to be with their mom, and their mom needs to be found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If you have any information on Claudia Altman, please call Hillsborough sheriff`s, 813-247-8200.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the Lancaster County forensic pathologist, Dr. Wayne K. Ross (ph), the cause of death of the six victims is listed as multiple traumatic injuries, and the manner of death is listed as homicide. The arrest culminates from an intensive all-night investigative effort by police and members of the Lancaster County major crimes unit, along with assistance from the Lancaster County district attorney`s office.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have essentially been working non-stop since the initial call came in yesterday in mid-afternoon hours. As I say, they`ve done an outstanding job in piecing this case together, culminating in the arrest that has been announced this morning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Amish country, just outside the home where six bodies have been found, we believe in the basement.
To our clinical psychologist, Dr. Ornsteiner. Buzz, the fact that the bodies were covered, the fact that the attacks on the bodies were hand to hand to me are very significant.
ORNSTEINER: Yes. I would agree with you. When the bodies are covered -- and there seems to be a lot of care taken in how those bodies were covered, they were wrapped in telephone cords, they were wrapped in sheets and blankets -- it`s almost, in a way -- that might have taken longer than the actual killing.
Many times, when there`s an emotional connection to a family member that`s been murdered, they often try to dignify the body or put it down or take care of it after they`ve murdered it. I know that may sound strange to the viewers. But oftentimes, that`s how you can tell there`s more of an emotional component there, and possibly a sense of regret and remorse, and to dignify that family member after what they`ve done.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The person of interest that police had been speaking with from the very beginning from last night was Jesse Wise, the 21-year-old that has been arrested and charged with six counts of criminal homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this was excellent police work by the investigators involved in this case, and I think, as this case unfolds, you`ll be able to see very clearly what police did, how they brought this together in the period of 20 hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The little boy, he used to go to school with my nephew, my little nephew in kindergarten, and the 21-year-old, my other nephews knows. And so he`s shocked right now, because they were friends. And it`s shocking to the whole neighborhood. He`s not that type of person that would do something like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A community stunned. Six bodies uncovered in a residential area in the basement of a three-story home. It`s got it all, right down to the white-picket fence, the green shutters, you name it.
I want to go to David Vagnoni with WHTM. Where is this guy tonight?
VAGNONI: Well, it`s our understanding that he`s being held. He is in custody. We believe he`s being held in Lancaster County Prison. He did appear before a judge this afternoon after being questioned by police. So the next stage here in Pennsylvania: You go to jail after you finish your appearance before a judge, Nancy.
GRACE: To Brett Lovelace with "Lancaster Intelligencer," it`s my understanding that a neighbor, Janet Detwiler, observed and told police that a white car was coming and going back and forth from this home throughout the entire week. Now, there`s no way, if it`s this guy, that he`s going to be able to plea insanity, mental defect, if he`s coming and going, minding his own business, with six bodies in the basement. Hello? Thoughts, Brett?
LOVELACE: Nancy, that is what is probably most disturbing. When you really step away and look at this situation, Jesse, the suspect in this case, was still living in the house. He spent at least three nights in the house. He was coming and going as it was his daily routine. He was meeting with friends. He was spending time with girlfriends.
GRACE: What!
LOVELACE: He was just kind of going at his normal routine, as if nothing had happened with these bodies in the basement.
GRACE: What, what, what? Wait a minute. I`m sorry my head just spun around. Going out with girlfriends with six bodies in the basement?
LOVELACE: Yes, almost as if nothing had happened. It was kind of like, "Hey, it`s a free pass for me."
GRACE: Stop. Stop. Stop.
Peter Elikann, you`re the defense attorney. How you going to spin this one? I think this needs extra rinse.
PETER ELIKANN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you threw a tough one on this one on me, because you`re right. The insanity defense probably wouldn`t work, but I`d have to find out, if it`s clear that he did it, what the heck was going on with his life here? I mean, that`s such extreme savagery...
GRACE: He`s evil?
ELIKANN: Either that, or I check out if there`s any kind of mental defect or all...
GRACE: Don`t even start.
ELIKANN: ... because he certainly...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You just said you can`t go with insanity.
ELIKANN: Not insanity, but I`d want to see, Nancy, if there is some kind of diminished capacity, because everything he`s doing is so irrational. It`s family members; it`s extreme brutality, blood fragments.
GRACE: Yes. OK, you know what? I`m going to give Anne Bremner a crack at this one, Ms. Teacher`s Pet, Goody Two-Shoes Anne Bremner.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Thanks.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, what are you going to do with this one? You got a better idea than mental defect? Here`s a guy, according to Brett Lovelace with the "Lancaster Intelligencer," he`s going about his business. He`s down at Wendy`s ordering a double meat. He`s out with his girlfriend. He`s acting like he`s -- there you go. Thanks, Liz. Just what we need, the wheel of fortune for the defense team.
Go ahead. Just throw one out there.
BREMNER: Nancy, we had one of those actually when I was in college in someone`s door in the sorority.
GRACE: Yes, that helps. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s try to get out of you and your sorority for just a moment.
BREMNER: Nancy, here`s the thing...
GRACE: You`ve got six dead bodies in the basement and he`s at McDonald`s.
BREMNER: But you know what, Nancy? This could be a diminished capacity case, especially when you talk about methamphetamine and the like. I mean, the thing is...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Uh-uh, uh-uh, don`t mislead the viewers, number one. I can`t cook, I can`t clean, but I can try a murder case, and voluntary use of drugs or alcohol, be it marijuana or methamphetamine, will not be a defense. Boom! So just drop that.
BREMNER: Well, no, it can be a defense, Nancy, and there`s a number of different circumstances where he can use it. It absolutely can be, in certain circumstances, and you`ve got a guy here -- you`ve got a guy here who`s got some kind of defect with him. There`s cause and effect. Something happened to this guy. And you`re right, just voluntary intoxication...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yes, something happened. Something happened. He killed six people.
BREMNER: He did.
GRACE: Plus, you`re throwing him a bone. We don`t even know if he was using drugs. He was out acting normally, according to this neighbor.
BREMNER: Nancy, we don`t know anything about him right now. And the fact is, there`s a story to be told, and it`s going to come from him.
GRACE: You know what? You`re right.
BREMNER: He didn`t go from just the agricultural crimes in the past to six homicides, six homicides for absolutely no reason. And we`ve got to take a look. He has three choice: diminished capacity, insanity -- which never works -- or he pleads guilty as charged and throws himself on the mercy of the court. It`s a tough one. You can`t just walk in and say, "It`s my way, or it`s the wrong way." We`ve got to take a look and see what happened.
GRACE: I didn`t say that. The person that created these facts, all right, is the person that killed six people. I didn`t come up with the facts that they`re all passed out dead in the basement and that he`s going back and forth to Wendy`s in his car like here`s got a job.
(CROSSTALK)
BREMNER: Right. Something`s wrong.
GRACE: To David Vagnoni, WHTM-TV reporter, something is wrong. Yes, that`s right. What else can you tell me about the suspect?
VAGNONI: Well, there`s not a lot of information we know, Nancy. We can tell you he does have a prior record, as we`ve mentioned before on the program. We`re talking about some petty theft, some burglaries, one case of aggravated assault, which was an involvement in a car accident. We also can tell you that both of this suspect`s parents had died prior to what happened here and he was being raised by his grandparents.
GRACE: You know, does that make any difference, to Buzz Von Ornsteiner?
ORNSTEINER: We`re looking at someone who is 21 years old, appears to be not leading a particularly productive or structured life, and these are now his imposed restrictions by these grandparents. So we don`t know what he was doing, in terms of getting to the point where he was an adult. Maybe these grandparents...
GRACE: You said he was 21.
ORNSTEINER: Right, but, I mean, maybe these grandparents were, then, placing restrictions on him.
GRACE: Oh, like, "Get a job"?
ORNSTEINER: Yes, exactly, lead a productive and structured life.
GRACE: You know what? You are right about that; some people cannot lead a structured life. So Peter Elikann, is that going to be your defense, his grandparents told him he had to get a job?
ELIKANN: Nancy, this one -- but make no mistake about it, this is unbelievably tough on we defense attorneys.
GRACE: I can`t wait to see this.
ELIKANN: I still think there`s got to be something crazy going to here. I mean, it wasn`t a planned, well-thought-out crime there. He left the bodies with blankets on them? He wasn`t going to try to get away with that.
And also, there`s one thing that jumped out at me, too. We talk about all these little petty crimes he did. I just looked at record though, and he probably did about four or five of them, got arrested four or five times in a row, within like a one-month period. That guy was spinning out of control.
GRACE: Let me guess. Are you about to say, Anne Bremner, it`s a desperate cry for help?
BREMNER: Yes, Nancy, there`s something going on here. And like I said, there`s something wrong. Not like Dr. Lee, "There`s something wrong," but come on. We just had this in Seattle, like, two weeks ago. Six people murdered by a guy, who then killed himself. He killed himself, so we`re never going to know.
But these cases are catastrophic. This is not Holcomb, Texas, or Holcomb, Kansas, excuse me, like the Capote chronicles, where these people came in and killed four people and then were looked at in terms of why they did it, and there were all kinds of things look into, and no insanity. This is catastrophic and something that has to be examined in terms of this kid, 21 years old.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, let`s look at the statistics, Clark Goldband. The reality is this is very, very rare for an entire family to be wiped on. It truly is. I know you`ve got some examples, but it is rare in the annals of criminal history.
GOLDBAND: Well, it is rare, Nancy. But we have some really disturbing cases. Let`s start, one, that`s in this state of Pennsylvania. Of course, we remember David Ludwig, then 18 years old, and his 14-year-old friend, Kara Borden. David mowed down the parents, supposedly. He`s not yet convicted on trial for that.
GRACE: And there`s the Groenes.
GOLDBAND: Yes, those are the Groenes. Joseph Edward Duncan wiping out an entire family, blunt force trauma on the head. Fortunately, one survived.
Nancy, these men need no introduction. Those are the Menendez brothers.
GRACE: Oh, the Menendez brothers.
GOLDBAND: I know some of your least favorites. They killed both of their parents. There`s Sarah Johnson in prison orange.
GRACE: Oh, yes, Sarah Johnson, 16, wiped out her family.
GOLDBAND: Yes, and that was because...
GRACE: When they wouldn`t let her date her drug-dealing boyfriend, yes.
GOLDBAND: He was an illegal immigrant, as well.
GRACE: Thanks.
GOLDBAND: And, of course, he have here William Craig Miller.
GRACE: Who`s that?
GOLDBAND: William Craig Miller, we`ve been talking about him on this program a few times, the Mesa murders.
GRACE: Oh, Mesa murders, the whole family wiped out.
GOLDBAND: Not yet convicted, on trial.
GRACE: I know him, Neil Entwistle.
GOLDBAND: Neil Entwistle, we know him well for killing his family, also not convicted, on trial for that right now. We covered him two nights ago.
GRACE: Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates.
GOLDBAND: Oh, yes, Andrea Yates.
GRACE: Her entire family.
GOLDBAND: One, by one, by one, by one, by...
GRACE: Living only behind Rusty Yates, who just got remarried, I might add.
GOLDBAND: Well, I hope he`s doing well, Nancy.
GRACE: In the Church of Christ.
You know what? Let`s go out to our caller. Anthony? Anthony, are you with me.
CALLER: I certainly am, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
CALLER: Hi there! I want to tell you have the most intelligent prime-time hour.
GRACE: Bless you.
CALLER: And I agree, also, that it`s pure evil. And furthermore, I wondered whether they managed to get any DNA, fingerprints? And if they did, will they have time -- will that take priority at the crime lab?
GRACE: You know what, Anthony? I got very disturbed during this Duke rape case that it was not taking priority at the crime lab. But you know what? If I were another victim standing at line, I would be so resentful if a high-profile case took priority over mine.
I`m just betting, Anthony, that they don`t give it priority because other people are waiting. But on the other hand, this is Amish country. There`s not a lot of murder and mayhem going down. So I`m guessing that the DNA results will come back.
And let`s just talk about it, Pat Brown. You know this crime scene. If the deaths were by strangulation and bludgeoning, it`s got to be just a cornucopia of result for crime techs.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Absolutely, Nancy. I don`t think this guy put a lot of thought into it, so there`s probably a tremendous amount of evidence, that along with the fact that he wasn`t running away. He was confessing.
And I want to go back to the point about being what his motive was. This guy is absolutely demonstrating psychopathic behavior. The fact you can kill, and go out and eat hamburgers, and have fun afterwards means you are a psychopath. Even if you did methamphetamines, that`s only to give you some energy to commit the crime you already wanted to commit.
The problem we have in a lot of times in our lives in the community and this poor Wise family is people minimize his behavior. "Oh, he`s a really nice guy. He just committed six crimes, but he`s a really nice guy." I`m sorry, that`s not my definition of nice guy.
But in trying to help people, we give them too much leeway, and this poor Wise family probably tried to help out that little boy, and look what happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: ... justice. And, you know, and we have to recognize the fact that, you know, this crime has been committed on the island of Aruba and we know the perpetrators. We know it`s these suspects, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe and Joran Van Der Sloot.
And, you know, we just have to keep going, because the only way we will get justice for Natalee is if we do keep going. I mean, if we give up, absolutely nothing will happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The country still wants answers in the disappearance of this beautiful, teenage, American girl, Natalee Holloway. She went on her high school senior trip on Aruba. It was almost time to come back home, back home to her family; she never made it.
Many people think this beautiful young girl is buried somewhere on the tiny tourist island of Aruba, or worse her remains in the ocean. Her father has written a book. It`s called "Aruba" by Dave Holloway, and he is with us tonight. And we are taking your calls.
Do you agree with Natalee`s mom that these three killed Natalee?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: I believe these three people are responsible for whatever happened to Natalee. And for the life of me, I can`t understand why they keep getting off on all of these...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I don`t either. I don`t either. There have been recent reports that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, and the Kalpoe brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, had been wiretapped. Have police told you anything about that?
HOLLOWAY: No, they haven`t. I heard that that was a possibility, but I`m not privileged to any information.
GRACE: Are police revealing anything to you, to at least comfort you, to let you know they`re trying?
HOLLOWAY: The only information we get now, Nancy, is through the prosecutor who communicates that through our attorney, John Q. Kelly.
GRACE: Do you believe they`re still trying? Or do they just want the whole thing to go away?
HOLLOWAY: I often wonder, you know -- when I left the island in October, Tim Miller had some trouble with getting some cooperation. I know that some of the police want to settle the case, and maybe there are some others who may have turned a blind eye.
GRACE: Want to settle it or make it go away?
HOLLOWAY: Well, make it go away, and there are some others who want resolution.
GRACE: Everyone, Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father, has written the book, "Aruba." We`re still looking for answers in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
You seem sure that these three young men are responsible for her disappearance and death. What is the most compelling evidence, in your mind, that points the finger to them?
HOLLOWAY: Well, you just got to go back to the original statements. You know, these kids came up with -- or concocted the story about the Holiday Inn. That went untrue.
GRACE: A complete lie.
HOLLOWAY: A complete lie.
GRACE: I respect the way you say that was untrue. Let`s just call it what it is: It`s a lie. And, on top of that, they couldn`t keep their stories straight.
HOLLOWAY: And then you had lie, after lie, after lie, after lie. And they also pointed the finger at two black security guards who apparently had nothing to do with it.
GRACE: And they let them go to jail. They had nothing to do with it. Remember when those two were behind bars? At the very beginning, you and I and Natalee`s mom and stepfather all, we had this feeling it just wasn`t right. Those two security guards had nothing to do with it. We knew it almost instinctively.
Let`s go to the lines. Linda in Arizona.
Hi, Linda, question?
CALLER: Question. Hi, Nancy, you`re a wonderful person. I wanted to ask a question: Why haven`t they ever dug up the judge`s backyard? Because he (INAUDIBLE) when this first started.
GRACE: That`s an interesting question. What about it, Dave?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I understand that they attempted to get a search warrant on his property and that was denied. There are also some rumors -- and I can`t confirm it -- that one of the judges had spent the night at Paul`s house and had indicated that he couldn`t do that to his friend.
GRACE: It`s mighty cozy down there, isn`t it? You know what`s distressing to me? Oh, that`s a great shot of Judge Paulus Van Der Sloot. That`s his backside you saw as he was running away from CNN reporters trying to ask him questions. That`s a good look, Judge.
Do you think he`ll ever be on the bench again?
HOLLOWAY: According to the prime minister, probably not.
GRACE: Probably not. Now, I can`t put my head on the pillow in good faith with "probably not."
Now, back to why you believe these three are responsible for her death and disappearance?
HOLLOWAY: The reason why?
GRACE: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: All of the statements indicate lie, after lie, after lie, and then they lie into the next day. There are some statements out there that one of their friends alibi just does not match up, and then...
GRACE: Totally fell through.
HOLLOWAY: And then I spoke with the assistant prosecutor while I was on the island, and I ask her opinion of what happened on this case. And she said that she could not get the police to follow up on certain leads that she had. And therefore...
GRACE: I don`t understand, police not following up. I do not understand it.
Let`s go to Mamie in Connecticut. Hi, Mamie.
CALLER: Hi, there.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: How does he feel about Joran`s father and his possible anticipation in Natalee`s disappearance?
GRACE: Good question, Mamie.
Now, Mr. Holloway, let me advise you: This is a family show. But how do you feel about Paulus Van Der Sloot?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I remember the day I met with Paul at the prison. And the thing that stuck out in my mind was I asked him all the questions, why he ran from the news media, did he get the attorneys for the Kalpoe brothers, and on and on and on. And the last question that I had: Was he involved? And he said no. And...
GRACE: Well, of course, he said no.
HOLLOWAY: And he ended it with -- he said, "Dave, I can understand your position, but you`ve got to understand mine. Joran is my son, and I will do everything I can to protect him," and I believe it.
GRACE: With us tonight, the father of Natalee Holloway. He has written this book for you, "Aruba" by Dave Holloway.
Quick break. We`ll be back, and we are taking your call. Remember, verdict watch. Milwaukee police on trial for a civilian beating, Court TV.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Ross A. Smith, Wyoming, just 21, killed Fallujah, Iraq. His third tour of duty, just months away from ending his obligation. Ross A. Smith, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, brothers, two of the three chief suspects in the disappearance of an American teenager, Natalee Holloway. Along with them, judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot.
To investigative reporter Pat Lalama, will we ever solve this case?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Oh, boy, Nancy, if I had a crystal ball, I`d own the world. We probably should hear about a few new things that have happened, though, just in the last few days. We do now have a new investigator in the case. How many does this make now? You know, number five, a lead investigator.
We also have some chess playing between the two sides in the matter of the civil case. And as you know, the Holloways and the Twittys want to sue Joran and his dad, saying essentially: You create a scenario for which our daughter is gone.
And they`re saying, yes, OK, fine, come down to Aruba and try the case. And they`re saying: Well, that`s not fair. We`re doing it in New York where witnesses are not afraid to come down and be intimidated. And they`re basically saying: Too bad. We want to do it in Aruba.
And then, finally, there was a TV show that aired, as you know, much like "America`s Most Wanted," where they were asking people for tips. What? What, are we into a year now, and now they`re asking for tips? They got about 60. Doesn`t look like anything right now is brewing that`s going to bring us any answers.
GRACE: Quickly, Pat, have you heard about the potential wiretap evidence of their phones?
LALAMA: I`ve heard it. I can`t personally confirm it, but I`ve heard it.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Carol in Nebraska. Hi, Carol.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: I love you.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: My question to Mr. Holloway is: Have they thought about getting a psychic? And, Mr. Holloway, our condolences to you.
GRACE: Thanks, Carol.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you very much. We`ve had a number of psychics that have given us information free of charge. You know, I`m all ears. I`ll listen to every one of them. And so far, we haven`t had any concrete evidence.
GRACE: Mr. Holloway, I just want you to know that, here on this show, we are not giving up on the search for Natalee Holloway, or for at least answers.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you. I might add that Tim Miller with EquuSearch is -- we`re going to do one last search in the ocean in about two weeks.
GRACE: And we will cover it.
Everyone, this new book, called "Aruba," by Natalee`s father. Our big thank you to you, Mr. Holloway, for being with us, but to all of our guests.
Our biggest thank you, as always, is to you for inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
