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Nancy Grace
Duke University Rape Case
Aired April 14, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, bombshell in the Duke gang rape investigation -- 911 calls describe the alleged victim, a college student- turned-stripper, as drunk the night she was allegedly multiply raped. But if you take a closer look, the guard who called 911 says she did not -- repeat, did not -- smell of alcohol. Do hospital records back him up, or do they clear the slurs of the alleged victim? And tonight, police try to enter students` dorm rooms to question witnesses, and they refuse to cooperate with police. Why? I want to know why.
And tonight, music icon Michael Jackson "Beat It" in his felony molestation trial, but tonight, the animals at Neverland being sold off two by two-ey, two-ey. And Jackson is on the verge of a deal to sell his single biggest asset, worth $1 billion, Sony`s music catalog.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, world music icon Michael Jackson out of the fire and into the frying pan, tonight trying to pull out of a multi- million-dollar money pit.
But first tonight, rapidly breaking news in the Duke lacrosse team rape scandal. Newly released 911 recordings describe the student-turned- stripper as, quote, "passed out drunk" after she alleges multiple rape at an off-campus party. But the security guard who called 911 says she did not smell of alcohol. Medical records seem to agree.
And tonight, Duke students actually refuse to cooperate with police. And tonight, will the North Carolina grand jury hand down an indictment on two lacrosse players Monday morning 09:00? And tonight, everybody, we are taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Durham has been shaken by allegations arising from the incident of March 13.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s breathing, appears to be fine. She`s not in distress, she`s just -- she`s passed out drunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No DNA material from any young man tested was present on the body of this complaining woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My conviction that a sexual assault actually took place is based on the examination that was done at Duke hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have confidence in our police force in doing their investigation. We don`t want to jeopardize any individual`s rights in this case, be the ones that are alleged to be the suspects or the victim herself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, I hardly know where to start, so much rapidly developing news tonight. Let`s see. Here are our choices, the 911, one of the calls released, recordings there, banter back and forth that this lady appeared to be drunk. I got a problem with that. And number two, police going on Duke University campus to interview witnesses, and they refused to cooperate with police! Why? Why, Kevin? Why wouldn`t they speak to police? Don`t they want the truth to come out?
KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Well, Nancy, the reason why they didn`t speak to police is because they are represented. And the police tried, my sources tell me -- tried to get them to talk. They refused to talk because they`re represented by local defense attorneys that have advised them not to speak unless they`re present.
GRACE: Now, are these the actual targets of the investigation, or are they just witnesses?
KEVIN: Nancy, from what I understand, it was first erroneously reported earlier today, based on the comments by Duke president Richard Brodhead, that the police had gone there to the dorms to, in fact, take a look at the -- go through the dorms without a search warrant. That did not happen. From what I hear from sources close to the defense, they did go, they did try and interview the kids, and the kids said, We`re not talking.
GRACE: Now, back to my original question. Were the kids, as you`re putting it...
KEVIN: Right. They were players.
GRACE: ... are they targets? Are they the suspected rapists, or are they witnesses?
KEVIN: From what I understand, they`re members of the lacrosse team, so they were one of the 46 people that were -- went through the DNA dragnet, so they would be targets of the prosecution.
GRACE: OK. All right. Hold on just a moment. Let`s go to Stephen Miller. He is a Duke University student, the executive of the Duke Conservative Union. Stephen, the people that refused to cooperate with police that came to the dorm rooms, were they the alleged suspects or were they witnesses at the party?
STEPHEN MILLER, STUDENT EXEC., DUKE CONSERVATIVE UNION: First of all, thanks for having me on. It`s unclear whether or not they are the exact people that are going to be presumably named in an indictment on Monday. But everyone on the lacrosse team has been treated as a suspect and as a target of the investigation, as best we can tell, since day one. That`s obviously why they decided to go for such a sweeping test of the DNA.
GRACE: OK. OK, Stephen, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. So Kevin, your answer now makes sense, too. All of the Duke lacrosse players, Kevin, I get it now, they`re clamming up. None of them are cooperating. Is that -- am I correct?
STEPHEN MILLER: Nancy, they`ve been -- yes, they`ve been represented and they`ve been advised by their attorneys not to talk.
GRACE: Holly Hughes, veteran prosecutor of sex crimes, this is amazing to me! I`m not talking about a suspect, who has a right to remain silent, a right to be represented by a lawyer, if they can`t afford a lawyer, the state will give them a defense lawyer for free, paid for by me and you, Holly, and all the taxpayers. But bottom line, a witness that was there at the party, why not speak to police? I don`t like it!
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: I don`t like it, either, Nancy. If you are innocent and you haven`t done anything wrong, you absolutely need to speak to the police. You know, they talk about this university and these boys and, We didn`t think young men like this would do this. Well, where is the honor? Where is the code here? If you are innocent and you know you`re not a suspect, you don`t have to wait for the police to eliminate you. You come forward and you tell the truth.
And it`s very disturbing to me that 47 young men in that house that are supposed to be of high moral standard and from great wonderful families will not just stand up and speak the truth, whatever the truth happens to be.
GRACE: And Holly, you mentioned "from that community." The reality is, I think it`s around 80 percent of the lacrosse team -- Ellie, correct me if I`m wrong -- according to "The New York Times," are from New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
GRACE: I want to go now to Michelle Suskauer, veteran defense attorney. If you`re just a witness in a case, what leg do you have to stand on to refuse to cooperate with police?
MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I don`t know if they`re just witnesses or whether any of these were targets because it doesn`t seem clear from that information to me...
GRACE: Uh-uh-uh-uh-uh! Uh-uh! Uh-uh! Just answer the question. If they`re just a witness, what is their grounds for not speaking to police?
SUSKAUER: Because they could still -- if they were a witness and even not a participant, they could still be possibly charged with a crime here, if they saw something going on and they either prevented her from leaving, if this actually occurred, if they brought her back into the house. So they could possibly held to some sort of criminal liability.
GRACE: But wait a minute! Wait a minute!
(CROSSTALK)
SUSKAUER: You know, Nancy...
GRACE: If you could just answer the question? The question is, if they are only -- you know what? Never mind.
Holly, if they`re only a witness, they`re only going to be treated as a witness, what is the grounds for not speaking to police?
HUGHES: They don`t have grounds, Nancy. Let`s face it, they can be put under subpoena once the case is charged. They can be brought forth as a material witness. If they refuse to cooperate at that time, they can have a contempt hearing held against them. So they don`t have a legal leg to stand on, if they are just, in fact, just a witness.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. I agree with you and disagree, to the shock of Michelle Suskauer. Michelle, I think that, obviously, Holly`s right. When you`ve a subpoena to go to court, you`ve got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh! Just wait. Wait! You don`t have to speak to police. You can go, Hey, forget about it. I`m going home. Don`t let the screen door hit you in the rear end. You don`t have to speak to police. But if you`re subpoenaed, then you can be held in contempt if you don`t speak to the court.
SUSKAUER: That`s right, Nancy, but these -- the police should have known better in this case. These boys -- and they`re boys, we`re not talking about adults here...
GRACE: Oh, really? Do you know how old...
(CROSSTALK)
SUSKAUER: Nancy, they were represented...
GRACE: Do you know some would...
SUSKAUER: ... by counsel.
GRACE: ... be 21 years old. Is that not an adult? Am I crazy?
SUSKAUER: Nancy, if they`re 21, yes, they`re considered an adult.
GRACE: OK.
SUSKAUER: I don`t know if these boys are seniors...
GRACE: If they`re 18?
SUSKAUER: ... or if they`re freshmen.
GRACE: If they`re 18?
SUSKAUER: Nancy, what I`m saying is, these guys have attorneys. They have counsel. They are absolutely -- they do not have to cooperate with the police,, or they can just let the police go through their counsel. What`s wrong with that?
GRACE: And you know, Holly, that`s a fine how-do-you-do, that the other team members don`t want to cooperate with police. What message does that send to you?
HUGHES: Absolutely. What it tells me, Nancy, is they`re either involved or they know who was involved, and they`re just basically hiding what happened in that house. All prosecutions are a search for the truth, and what is disturbing here is that no one present at that house is willing to come forward and tell the truth. Is there not one man among that group of boys, as we keep hearing them called, that will stand up and say, "I was not involved, but this is what I witnessed. This is what happened and what did not happen."
GRACE: You know, I want to go back to Stephen Miller, Duke University student. He`s the executive. The Duke Conservative Union. What`s that?
STEPHEN MILLER: It`s the group on campus that`s responsible for promoting and advancing conservative values and traditional American beliefs.
GRACE: You mean like law and order?
STEPHEN MILLER: Exactly.
GRACE: You mean like upholding the truth?
STEPHEN MILLER: That`s one of them.
GRACE: Upholding the truth?
STEPHEN MILLER: Absolutely. And I`m a huge law and order guy. I actually wrote a column -- I`m a columnist for "The Chronicle" -- a while back, saying how we`re far too soft on rape in this country. The average time served in the United States of America for rape in the United States is only around five years, and I think that`s ridiculous and offensive on every level. But in this specific case...
GRACE: But in this case.
STEPHEN MILLER: ... we`ve seen a level of hysteria...
GRACE: Go ahead.
STEPHEN MILLER: In this case, we`ve seen a level of hysteria Which has put the players in what I would call an unusual situation because before any of the evidence really even started to come out, members of the community and the administration were already acting as if they were guilty. So I think for that reason, the defense attorneys...
GRACE: I got a question for you.
STEPHEN MILLER: Go ahead.
GRACE: Stephen, have they been arrested?
STEPHEN MILLER: No one has been arrested.
GRACE: OK, then why do you say they`ve been treated as if they`re guilty?
STEPHEN MILLER: I`ll give you a good example. They`ve had to deal with a number of protests that have occurred all over Durham in recent weeks. I`ve heard some protest leaders say things that are absolutely abominable, such as a statement, Why are we allowing the accused to roam the streets freely? There has been warnings of gang violence against the students, again, presumably, because people are assuming that they`re guilty and they want to attack them and injure them. We`ve also seen...
GRACE: Have (INAUDIBLE) injured?
STEPHEN MILLER: One student was attacked. He wasn`t on the lacrosse team, but the motivation for the attack was that he was a Duke student.
GRACE: In fact, Stephen...
STEPHEN MILLER: The attacker was a student at Central.
GRACE: Stephen, I respect you speaking out, but it seems to me the only person that`s been run out of town is the alleged victim. You know, she`s moved.
STEPHEN MILLER: I understand that. It is entirely possible, Nancy, that the lacrosse team is acting totally immorally in this situation, if they are guilty. However, if they are innocent -- and there`s good reason to believe that that might be the case -- they might just be acting out of fear, out of the level of anger they`ve seen. One student was already suspended from Duke University for authoring that infamous e-mail, even though it didn`t contain any illegal material in the e-mail.
GRACE: Well...
STEPHEN MILLER: So they`re just being quiet, I think, at this point...
GRACE: Stephen...
STEPHEN MILLER: ... because their lawyers have told them to be quiet.
GRACE: I don`t know if you`re familiar with the charge called terroristic threats. But before I go to that, Rosie (ph), who is in for Elizabeth tonight, in just a moment, I want to go to that e-mail, before we show our viewers the 911 content.
To Rony Camille, editor at NCCU`s "Campus Echo." And I`d like to point out that tonight, we are live at the campus not of Duke University but at NCCU there in Durham, the school of the alleged victim. Their voice needs to be heard, as well.
Rony, response to Stephen Miller?
RONY CAMILLE, EDITOR, "CAMPUS ECHO," NCCU STUDENT: It`s outrageous. From what the students are telling me, you know, starting off with the e- mails, they`re angry. They need to -- from what students have been telling me for the last few, two weeks, three weeks, is somebody should have been arrested. Somebody should have been -- DNA should have returned back.
GRACE: Well, let`s talk about the DNA. Back to...
CAMILLE: And the DA should have had (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. There are additional tests being run on the DNA. What are the tests, do you know? And it`s my understanding that they -- the additional tests should have been back by now.
KEVIN MILLER: Right, Nancy. The fact is, no one knows. The defense doesn`t know. The prosecution knows because it`s been at a private lab. It`s not being done by the state SBI. So again, we`re waiting for Mr. Nifong to disclose that. If he has something, he has an obligation to disclose it to the defense team. But right now, no one knows those results.
GRACE: Well, of course, the obligation to disclose scientific evidence is a certain number of days just before the jury trial, and we haven`t even gotten past indictment. Everybody, the indictment could come down as early as 09:00 on Monday morning. Kevin Miller, does this grand jury meet every two weeks?
KEVIN MILLER: Yes, ma`am. Yes, Nancy, the grand jury does meet every two weeks, and from the defense and the prosecution, the reason why, if it does happen, chances are, it will happen this Monday because the next time is the day before, May 1, the day before the May 2 election for Durham DA, where you have three candidates running, including Mr. Nifong.
GRACE: Well, you know what? I hardly believe, Kevin, contrary to all the allegations that this whole prosecution is politically motivated, that this young lady planned the whole thing in order to help Nifong get reelected.
When we get back, we`re going to play those 911 tapes for you and show you the content. Was this woman drunk? How come the medical records don`t say that? How come the rape nurse doesn`t say that? How come no one smelled alcohol on her breath? One person says she`s passed out drunk. Another person says they had to pry her fingers off the emergency brake to get her out of that car, she was so afraid and traumatized.
We will all be right back. We are broadcasting live tonight from the campus of NCCU there in Durham, the college where this stripper-turned- student goes to school. She has now apparently left town out of fear of reprisal.
Let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police in and family ask for your help in the search for 17-year-old Wade Lurk, last seen in his 1990 Nissan Stanza, Missouri license plate 720-WCC, April 1. If you have info on Wade Lurk, call the Ste. Genevieve police at 573-883-5820. The reward tonight climbing to $25,000.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Durham 911. What is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I`m at Hillsborough Road at the Kroger`s store. I`m the security guard.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what is the phone number you`re calling from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s 383-2249
911 OPERATOR: And what`s the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The problem is there`s a lady in somebody else`s car, and she will not get out of the car. She`s, like -- she`s, like, intoxicated, drunk or something. She -- I mean, she won`t get out of the car, period.
911 OPERATOR: What kind of car is she in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What kind of car you have? It`s a Honda Accord.
911 OPERATOR: What color?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Navy blue, but it looks black at night.
911 OPERATOR: Does she have any weapons or anything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does she have any what?
911 OPERATOR: Weapons or anything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, ma`am. She is barely talking.
911 OPERATOR: And where is the owner of the car?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The owner of the car is standing right here now, and she thinks she can explain what happened.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what`s her name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your name? Kim.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And where is she? She`s at the customer service center?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh. You want to talk to her?
911 OPERATOR: Just let her know we`ll send someone out there to help her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: All right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
911 OPERATOR: Bye-bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And according to the local NBC reporter, that security guard there in the Kroger parking lot, says, No, I mean, she was out of it. She also noted the woman did not -- repeat, did not -- smell of alcohol. So where`s it all coming from that the alleged victim is passed out drunk?
We are broadcasting tonight from the campus of NCCU there at Durham, the campus where the student-turned-stripper was in school.
Let`s go to Sharla in Utah. Hi, Sharla.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, isn`t it true that you can still convict somebody of rape without DNA?
GRACE: Sharla, you are absolutely correct. Explain it, Michelle Suskauer.
SUSKAUER: You don`t need DNA. There hasn`t been DNA testing for, you know, very long. I mean, there`s been years without it. You can have identification, witnesses, confession. So no, you definitely don`t need DNA proof. It certainly helps, and it certainly sort of seals the fate of the person who has been accused, but you definitely don`t need that.
GRACE: And of course, Michelle, all the jurors have gone all "CSI" on us. They expect the DNA. But you know, along with that, that`s not to say that the alleged perpetrators, the alleged rapists, didn`t go "CSI" and use condoms.
Let`s go to Annette in South Carolina. Annette?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know, If the victim was drunk when she went to the party or if she got drunk during the party and had sex voluntarily with the players, is that still considered rape, if she was intoxicated and could not make a conscious decision to have sex with these players, you know? And once she`s sober, she realized what had happened and she reported it? Is that considered rape?
GRACE: You know what? I`m hearing two questions there, Annette, and both of them very valid. Both of them have gone to courts of law, as a matter of fact. One, if you cannot consent due to alcohol, or for instance, GHB, the date rape drug, gamma-hydroxy-buterate (ph), if you cannot consent, there`s a possible rape. If you`re drunk or not drunk and you consent, no rape.
I want to go quickly to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, the medical records seem to back up that she was not drunk. Don`t they take blood alcohol?
KEVIN MILLER: We don`t know about that, Nancy. That hasn`t been disclosed. But again, according to the rape kit and everything else, alcohol wasn`t mentioned. You have that mentioned on the 911 tape and the tape that was released late last night, mentioned by the police officer that she appeared drunk.
GRACE: Yes, did the police officer say she smelled of alcohol?
KEVIN MILLER: No.
GRACE: Any reason to say she was drunk, other than she had her eyes closed, laying in the car, refusing to get out?
KEVIN MILLER: According to the police officer, that`s what he said. The 911 dispatcher did ask him, does -- did he need medical assistance for this lady, and he said no.
GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. We are taking your calls on the Duke rape scandal. We`re expecting a grand jury to convene at 09:00 Monday morning.
Let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert," Rosie. In a Massachusetts courtroom, Kai Leigh Harriot, a sweet little 5-year-old girl, tells the hardened convict who put her in a wheelchair for life that she forgives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAI LEIGH HARRIOT: I forgive Anthony Warren. What he has done to me was wrong, but I still forgive him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She is now a kindergarten student, paralyzed from the chest down. A stray bullet fired by 29-year-old Anthony Warren hit her spine. Warren, who was arguing with others, sentenced to up to 15 years behind bars.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this is going to wind up being a 24-hour hold. She`s 10-56 and unconscious (INAUDIBLE)
911 DISPATCHER: 10-4. You need a medical truck?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s breathing, appears to be fine. She`s not in distress, she`s just passed out drunk.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Appears to be passed out drunk. And don`t worry, that will be replayed and replayed and replayed in front of a jury of 12.
Let`s go to Jeff in California. Hi, Jeff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, dear.
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, first off, I want to tell you, you have the most alluring eyes. But...
GRACE: Oh, dear. Is it going to be that kind of question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!
GRACE: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to know why Duke seems to be able to sweep this under the carpet with no reprise from our judicial system.
GRACE: You know what? Good question. Let`s throw that to Stephen Miller, Duke University student, executive of Duke Conservative Union. What about it, Stephen?
STEPHEN MILLER: The idea that Duke is trying to sweep this under the rug is absolutely false. This -- Duke has freely allowed about every reporter in the United States of America onto campus. You see them all over the time. This is not even remotely -- it`s so far being beyond being swept under the rug, I don`t even understand how someone could ask a question like that. And the university has dealt with this in a very direct, up-front and professional way. And they have suspended the lacrosse season, and they have -- they`ve accepted the resignation of the director of the lacrosse team.
GRACE: I think, I think, I think, I think, Stephen, the caller is waiting on an arrest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: Durham 911. Where is your emergency?
SECURITY GUARD: Yes, I`m at Hillsdale Road by the Krogers store. I`m the security guard.
DISPATCHER: OK. And what`s the phone number you`re calling from?
SECURITY GUARD: 383-2249...
DISPATCHER: And what`s your problem?
SECURITY GUARD: The problem is, there is a lady in somebody else`s car and will not get out of the car. She`s like -- she`s like intoxicated, drunk, or something. I mean, she won`t get out of the car, period.
DISPATCHER: What kind of car is she in?
SECURITY GUARD: What kind of car you have? It`s a Honda Accord.
DISPATCHER: What color?
SECURITY GUARD: Navy blue, but it looks black at night.
DISPATCHER: Does she have any weapons or anything?
SECURITY GUARD: Does she have any what?
DISPATCHER: Weapons or anything?
SECURITY GUARD: No, ma`am. She is barely talking.
DISPATCHER: And where is the owner of the car?
SECURITY GUARD: The owner is standing right here, and she says she can explain what happened.
What is your name? Kim?
DISPATCHER: OK, and where is she? She`s at the Customer Service Center?
SECURITY GUARD: Yes, you want to talk to her?
DISPATCHER: Just let her know we will send someone out there to help her.
SECURITY GUARD: OK.
DISPATCHER: All right?
SECURITY GUARD: All right.
DISPATCHER: Bye-bye.
OFFICER: This is going to wind up being a 24-hour hold. She`s 10-56 and unconscious (INAUDIBLE)
DISPATCHER: Ten-four. You need a medical truck (INAUDIBLE)
OFFICER: She`s breathing, appears to be fine. She`s not in distress. She`s just passed-out drunk.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, she`s passed-out drunk. The people that were close to her said she did not smell of alcohol, including that Kroger security guard. The officer didn`t mention it, as well. In the hospital rape kit, the rape nurse does not mention it. Let`s see what the blood alcohol says.
And remember those photos, Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio, that the lacrosse players took of her standing on the porch?
KEVIN MILLER: Right.
GRACE: I wonder if -- she`s lying down, passed-out drunk there, too. I think those photos may very well serve to work against the lacrosse team to show she was not passed-out drunk.
KEVIN MILLER: Well, Nancy, again, talking to both sides of this, the defense feels very confident that those photos and the video that we`ve heard about -- again, we haven`t heard any of this, Nancy -- that will prove that their clients are innocent. That`s what they are saying.
GRACE: They say they`ve got it, but they won`t show it. So they want to keep it a secret. OK, they`ve shown it to the district attorney, Kevin?
KEVIN MILLER: I don`t know -- right. I don`t believe that the district attorney has seen the video yet. And I don`t think they have an obligation to give that to him yet until someone is charged.
GRACE: Well, if you want to ward off a grand jury investigation, if you want to ward off an indictment, if you want to go, "Look, this isn`t true; hey, look at her," wouldn`t you show it? Or would you keep it and try to use it somehow at trial? I mean, if it`s true, then, fine, bring it on.
Very quickly, I want to go to medical examiner and expert Jonathan Arden. Apparently, the district attorney has sent the same DNA -- not DNA from other individuals, but the same DNA -- to a private testing facility for additional tests. What would they be?
JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: One of the things that he might be looking at that you might not get at your standard state lab is what they call a YSDR (ph). There`s DNA specifically in the y- chromosome, which, of course, can only come from the male and that in some ways can help you separate out DNA from the victim and an alleged attacker. Sometimes it can even help you to link that to a particular attacker.
So there may be specific testing. There may be technical difficulties that the private lab, the specialty lab, can do better than the state lab, and maybe he`s just not leaving any stone unturned there, where another lab may be able to do a better job and a more thorough job.
GRACE: And, Dr. Arden, whenever I handled rape cases, and the lady would go to the hospital for the rape kit, as she did here -- which is very extensive, multi-hour process -- they would always take blood for blood alcohol to see if the alleged victim had drugs or alcohol in her system. Don`t you think that`s SOP, standard operating procedure?
ARDEN: I think that`s exactly what it is, Nancy. You would expect them to take blood and/or urine, for general drug screening, of drugs of abuse, for alcohol. That`s, of course, a typical part medically, in terms of what`s happening to the patient, what the patient might need for treatment, and later on down the line, when somebody wants to try to explain behavior.
And, again, some of that may be potentially evidence for use in court. So, yes, that`s an incredibly important thing, and I bet they did that.
GRACE: I bet they did, too. And one way or the other, it`s going to put to rest all of these claims that this lady was drunk, passed-out drunk.
In fact, let`s go to clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders. If you read in the same 911 call, if you look at the same statements from these same individuals, the alleged victim was holding on so tight in the car they had to pry her fingers off the emergency brake to get her out of the car.
That doesn`t sound like passed-out drunk to me. That sounds like insanely afraid and traumatized.
DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, there`s something called rape trauma syndrome, and a lot of the behavior that`s been described as not speaking, even passing out, may be part of the initial shock with rape trauma. People can`t think; people are confused, they`re disoriented; they can even be laughing or absolutely frozen in terror, rape trauma syndrome. This lady was not drunk.
GRACE: And, Dr. Saunders, it`s very, very tricky. I`ve dealt with a lot of rape victims, a lot of molestation victims. And many of them try their best -- even under the worst circumstances, they try to have some semblance of normalcy. They try to act normal; they try to go back to work; they try to act like nothing happened. And that can be mistaken by a layperson, such as myself, as, "Hey, nothing happened."
SAUNDERS: Exactly. In fact, that`s sort of the second stage in recovery, after the initial horror and shock wears off: People go into denial. And they usually fall flat on their faces emotionally, psychologically and physically after that. People need help with this, and I hope someone is keeping in touch with this woman and not letting her just run away.
GRACE: Well, according to her father -- our producer, Rupa (ph), is there on the scene, along with Naomi, at NCCU Durham. And she spoke with the alleged victim`s father today twice.
And he said, I quote, he saw his daughter the very next day after the alleged assault. Her face was beaten, punched, bruised. She had scratches and bruises on her arms. Also, the day the DNA results came out last week, the girl cried and cried all night. The father says it broke their heart to see her like that, that she could not sleep.
To Don Clark, former head of the FBI Houston bureau, now, Don, it`s my understanding you think this investigation has been rushed; why do you say that?
DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Well, it just appears to me, Nancy, that, when I look at all the circumstances, it looks like we`re just rushing to go in, and get an indictment, and try to convict somebody in this case.
Now, don`t get me wrong: I`m all for speedy justice, but that`s got to be done right. I mean, here we are talking whether she`s drunk, whether she`s sober. Does she have alcohol in her blood, drugs in her system? None of that means anything, in the sense of getting the evidence to determine if these people, that the accusers here, the ones that are being targeted, did, in fact, rape this lady.
What the investigators have got to do with this prosecutor -- and I think they are rushing it, if they`re trying to get it to an indictment so far, just to get an indictment, because they got to make a case.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Mr. Clark, you know I respect the FBI in most circumstances.
But, Ellie, what day did the alleged attack go down, March 8?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, 13th, I believe.
GRACE: March 13, OK. It`s been a month. What are you -- what do you want, Don?
CLARK: No, no, no, now, Nancy, you can take longer than that. If you`ve got everything, you`ve got to get the evidence. It doesn`t matter if you`re indicted. If you can`t make the case -- Nancy, you were a prosecutor. You know that. You got to make the case.
GRACE: You`ve got eyewitness identification. You`ve got photos of the victim. You`ve got a rape nurse who says there was vaginal trauma. I mean, this ain`t a federal case, Don. You`re the feds. This is a rape case.
CLARK: It`s a rape case, Nancy, but that rape case is a very important case, as you well know, and there`s got to be solid evidence.
GRACE: OK, what else do you want to see?
CLARK: That case is going to have to get to -- well, I want them to make sure that they have got an investigation to a point that, not just to indict it, but that they`re going to be able to convict the people that they`ve accused. If they don`t, then the indictment is all for naught.
GRACE: You don`t think they can continue to investigate up until the time of trial?
CLARK: Of course, they can continue to investigate, and we do that frequently. But to rush in and get the indictment prematurely may cause you some problems in trying to get further evidence.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. It`s all fitting together to me. You weren`t on the Duke lacrosse team a couple of years ago were you?
CLARK: No, get out of here. You know better than that. The point is...
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Oh, I don`t know anything until I ask.
CLARK: No, no way. No way. The point is, Nancy, is that the investigators should do what they need to do to try to get a solid line of connecting evidence together and then indict this case. If they`re trying for any other reason to get it indicted so quickly, I think it`s an injustice to all of us that`s going to be served here, to include the victim.
GRACE: Well, I have a completely different opinion. I say, if you`ve got an eyewitness I.D., you`ve got vaginal trauma, and you`ve got a victim that you believe in, bring it on, take it to the grand jury, and then continue your investigation.
But I see what you mean. Cross your t`s, dot your i`s before you even get the indictment.
Our producer, Clark Goldband, let`s talk about the lawyers for a moment. Let`s do the face-off.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, there is a huge subplot that`s unfolding here, Nancy. Let`s take a look at the face-off.
Mike Nifong, we know him, the D.A. down there in Durham. He`s 55 years old, went to UNC Law. Taking on in this election, Keith Bishop, 53. Here`s something interesting: Went to NCCU, where the supposed victim is from.
GRACE: Isn`t he one of the defense in this?
GOLDBAND: No, he`s not the defense in this.
GRACE: OK.
GOLDBAND: He`s taking on Nifong in the D.A. election, which is coming up in less than a month.
GRACE: I see, OK.
GOLDBAND: There`s also a third candidate; we`ll get to her in a second. But Nifong, a teacher and a social worker before he became an attorney.
Now, look at Keith Bishop. He was censored by the North Carolina State Bar in 2001 for stifling someone on the defense team, which I`m sure you would like.
Also taking a look at Mike Nifong, he was in the prosecutor`s office for 30 years. While on the other hand, 14 years for Mr. Keith -- excuse me, Keith Bishop.
Also, a third candidate, Freda Black. She`s running, as well. Listen to this: She worked under Mr. Nifong, but he let her go when he became D.A. So there`s many subplots unfolding here all at once.
GRACE: OK, quick break, everyone. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER: She`s breathing, appears to be fine. She`s not in distress. She`s just passed-out drunk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: While there`s been no arrest, one lacrosse player has been suspended. I`ve decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. All are welcome, no nudity. I plan on killing the bitch as soon as she walks in, and proceeding to cut their skin off while in my Duke issued spandex." Short sign 41.
OK, to Stephen Miller, Duke University student, how -- I understand you think that`s a joke?
STEPHEN MILLER: Well, first of all, let me just say I`m not the only one that thinks that`s a joke.
GRACE: OK...
STEPHEN MILLER: When President Brodhead...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: If they jumped off a cliff, would you jump of a cliff?
STEPHEN MILLER: OK, let me explain to you why I think it`s a joke. First of all, this was a private communication sent from one friend to another friend. And if you take the defense`s line of events, there was an altercation with the stripper. She didn`t perform as they wanted to, whatever it may have been, so that`s why the e-mail begins with "after tonight`s show." It doesn`t seem like language you would use if you had just raped somebody.
But continuing from that...
GRACE: OK. OK, Stephen.
STEPHEN MILLER: I hate to say it, I hate to say it, but if you go to the Great Hall, which is our main dining facility on campus, and you get a group of gregarious guys together and you were listening in on their conversations, they might say something disgusting like that. Unfortunately, that`s the way that a lot of communications occurs in America.
GRACE: Kill someone and cut their skin off? You know what? Maybe we have a different opinion of what`s funny, but...
STEPHEN MILLER: I would never condone saying that in public, but I would like to point out...
GRACE: OK, OK. OK, but writing it is OK.
STEPHEN MILLER: ... that I have seen skits on "Saturday Night Live" that have had material very similar to that. And we shouldn`t rush as a society to condemn someone`s private communication...
GRACE: Hold on, you`re going to have to tell me what skit is like that and I invite you back on.
STEPHEN MILLER: I`ll tell you right now. There`s a skit -- I`ll tell you right now.
GRACE: Can you be brief?
STEPHEN MILLER: I can. There`s a skit with Will Ferrell. He plays Neil Diamond. And this is basically...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Stop, stop. Hold the "Saturday Night Live" skit; we`re talking about a gang rape, but I appreciate the sentiment. And I`d like to have that...
STEPHEN MILLER: But you don`t know that the gang rape occurred. What if the e-mail occurred in a different context?
GRACE: Thank you, dear, but another legal story is calling. And I`ll invite you back on to explain why that was a joke.
I want to go very quickly to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition."
Michael Jackson, what else can I say? Is he actually going to have to get a job now like the rest of us?
JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": No, I don`t think so. According to a statement from his spokespeople, he`s restructured his finances. What that means, in simple terms, it`s like refinancing your house, if your house happens to be worth $300 million, because he got a new loan.
He`s owed over $300 million. He took out -- he used collateral. He has a 50 percent (INAUDIBLE) in the Sony/ATV catalog, which has the Beatles songs, in addition to many others, and he owed about $325 million. And he was on the verge of declaring bankruptcy.
And Sony, which owns the other 50 percent interest in that music catalog, helped Michael Jackson and arranged for new financing. You say, why would they do that? Because Sony did not want Michael Jackson to go into bankruptcy, because Sony wants that catalog. They don`t want a third party to get their interest in that catalog, so Sony helped arrange financing.
Michael Jackson will be able to make payments and then sell off a half of his interest, or 25 percent, to Sony, so Sony will end up controlling 75 percent of the music catalog. It`s very complicated, but basically Michael Jackson`s in the clear for now.
GRACE: And those of you that were suspicious, yes, Jim Moret is not just chief correspondent on "Inside Edition," he`s a lawyer. That`s why he talks like that. Now, if you say all that...
(CROSSTALK)
MORET: It`s complicated.
GRACE: ... quickly.
So, to Clark, what music are we talking about that`s worth a billion dollars?
GOLDBAND: You wouldn`t believe, Nancy, it`s the greatest pop music of all time right here. "Sgt. Pepper`s Lonely Hearts Club" ring a bell? How about songs by Elvis? We`ve got songs by Bob Dylan. New stuff, like Destiny`s Child. It`s worth a billion dollars, and it spins off, some people say, $100 million a year in profit from royalties, $100 million.
GRACE: To Jackson family attorney, Brian Oxman, like Dr. Evil said, "$1 billion." Now, let`s see. What`s Jackson going to do with all that money? Is it true he`s selling off the animals two-by-twoey-twoey?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: With $1 billion, Katherine and Joe Jackson are elated that Michael has seen his way out of this, and Michael is an amazing man.
GRACE: Look, there he is in a toy store with some children.
OXMAN: Yes, indeed. He is an amazing man, because he has landed on his feet. And that is just the most important thing here. He has had...
GRACE: I thought you told me he was not going to sell it and that Neverland was not in any problem?
OXMAN: He is not going to be selling Neverland. It`s not in any problem. We are just thrilled that Michael has gone through this, really, trial by fire and seen his way to land on his feet. He is just an amazing man, and I`ve got to admire him more now than, really, before, because he saw his way through to solve all of his financial problems.
GRACE: How many loans does he have against the Sony catalog?
OXMAN: This is the only problem that he was facing, and he`s now resolved it. He is in good shape, and we`re just very proud of him.
GRACE: Are you going to tell me? Are you going to tell me how much that`s leveraged?
OXMAN: You`ve seen the news reports. What the news reports are telling you is what the people who are involved in this were doing.
GRACE: I asked you.
Hold on, Jim Moret, are there mortgage...
OXMAN: I can`t tell you, Nancy.
GRACE: ... is the catalog leveraged? Are there second mortgages on Neverland?
MORET: Well, yes, there`s a mortgage on Neverland, as far as I know. He owed a total of $325 million, based on most accounts.
GRACE: Ouch. OK, that`s a lot of spending sprees. Jim Moret, "Inside Edition" chief correspondent, Brian Oxman, Jackson family attorney.
Let`s stop just a moment on this Good Friday as we honor Lance Corporal Richard Caseltine, who survived a sniper`s bullet to the head in Iraq. The 20-year-old says he`s lucky, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: The Duke lacrosse team under fire for multiple rape allegations. The defense scores: No DNA whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No rape or sexual assault happened in that house, and this DNA report shows it loud and clear.
GRACE: The prosecution fires back; it ain`t over yet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t mean nothing happened. It just means nothing was left behind.
GRACE: A New Jersey college student vanishes from his dorm room. The only clue: a trace of blood found in and around the dorm dumpster. That kid could very well have laying in the dumpster alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he went down the chute, why is he going to do that himself? This was only 24 inch by 24 inch.
GRACE: How would you get a grown man, age 19, in 24 by 24? He didn`t dive down there himself; he had to be stuffed.
Neil Entwistle in court on two charges of murder one in the shooting deaths of his wife, Rachel, and 9-month-old baby girl, Lillian Rose. He announced in court he is not guilty. What is it going to be? Maybe it was self-defense; maybe it was insanity.
Pennsylvania rocked by violent crime. Six bodies wrapped in sheets and blankets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I smelled the odor. I started walking down the stairs. I`ve been down a little bit just to see -- and I seen a baby down in there, laying on his face. I ran out, and I told the police that they was all down there dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... charged with six counts of criminal homicide is Jesse D. Wise.
GRACE: How are you going to spin this one? I think this one needs extra rinse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re right. The insanity defense probably wouldn`t work.
GRACE: The country still wants answers in the disappearance of this beautiful teenage American girl, Natalee Holloway.
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: I believe these three people are responsible for whatever happened to Natalee. Then you had lie, after lie, after lie, after lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Thank you to our guests. But most important, thank you to you for being with us.
On this Good Friday, happy Easter and good Pesach. Good night from the New York control room.
Night, Rosie.
Night, Jennifer.
And, of course, here on the floor, our friends of our show mascot, Rob Farfan (ph), friends of the show from Germany, and, of course, Ellie and Clark and the rest of the great floor crew.
To my makeup artists, Nan, you poor, poor, thing. Happy birthday.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off tonight. See you here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
