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American Morning

CIA Leak Firing; Lack of Charity

Aired April 24, 2006 - 08:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The CIA agent who apparently leaked information to "The Washington Post" about those secret prisons is now fired. It's the latest leak story to tell you about, and referring to leaks in Washington, and spies and the Central Intelligence Agency has become quite a story of late.
Joining me live from Washington is Steve Simon, a former aide national security aide under President Clinton, and a former acting CIA director John McLaughlin, who is now a CNN national security adviser.

Good morning to you, both, gentlemen.

John, let's begin with you and talk about this dismissal.

First of all, we don't independently have this person's name. The Associated Press and other news organizations identifying this person as Mary McCarthy, a senior official at the CIA, well-respected person. What is your take on Mary McCarthy?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: Well, in fairness to Miss McCarthy, of course, we have to say that the agency hasn't acknowledged that she is the person, or for that matter the nature of the leak. I knew Miss McCarthy and considered her a competent professional, and I'd probably leave it at that, given that if she is the subject of this, it could be a legal investigation and it would be inappropriate to say a lot more about her.

M. O'BRIEN: Fair enough, and that's -- I understand your reticence on that.

But let me ask you this, On The inside of the CIA, obviously, it just goes without saying that leaking is not something that it would ever be in any way condoned, even winked and nodded to, at the CIA. The question is, though, in your tenure at the CIA, were there occasions when you ever felt that you saw something that you felt was so wrong that you wanted or felt it was appropriate somehow to engage, I guess, in what might be deemed civil disobedience in leaking to the media information?

MCLAUGHLIN: No, miles. That's just not done. That's a central ethic in the intelligence business. It's based on trust. It is based on keeping secrets, and everyone who works there signs an agreement that's legally binding not to reveal secrets.

There are channels that are independent of the administration, or independent of the executive branch or the CIA, where you can go if you have a grievance or a disagreement. Probably the most effective one -- this is short of leaking -- the most effective one is to go to a congressional intelligence committees, people like Jane Harman of California or Senator Rockefeller, or Nancy Pelosi, who's an ex official (ph) member, or of the chairman Mr. Hoekstra, or in the Senate, Mr. Roberts, Senator Roberts. Those are all avenues along with many others, including ombudsman and inspector generals, where people can go with disagreements and have them heard fairly and thoroughly.

M. O'BRIEN: But if those avenues lead to dead ends, Steve Simon, what are the options?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, we don't know that they led to dead ends. And, I think, even in any circumstance, a person cannot break the law and leak information that is classified, particularly if it's going to affect an ongoing operation. I think in that case, where you have people in the field whose lives are at stake and the security, and sensitivity and effectiveness of the operation is on the line, it becomes a much more grievous offense.

M. O'BRIEN: Steve Simon, let me bring you into the mix. Is there a scenario? Can you conjure up a hypothetical where it would appropriate to leak?

STEVE SIMON, FMR. NATL. SECURITY AIDE: Well, in a situation like this, where the administration's foreign and intelligence policies go well beyond the norms of existing policy, and are seen by people on the inside, certainly by some people on the inside, as being inconsistent with the legal and ethical values that have guided American policy thus far, you're going to get leaks, especially when there is no opportunity for let's call them whistle-blowers. As Mr. McLaughlin has pointed out, whistle-blowing in a situation like this necessarily entails the disclosure of intelligence information, so there really isn't a channel for whistle-blowing. There are ways in which one can dissent inside, but that's like the chickens appealing to the fox.

M. O'BRIEN: What about, as Mr. McLaughlin says, what about that congressional option, as kind of a way to -- in a way that would not be illegal or a violation of an oath, to share concerns outside the agency?

SIMON: Well, I think one of the things that has driven these leaks, both the leak regarding the secret prison and the leak regarding warrantless wiretapping, is a sense inside government that Congress is not doing its oversight job.

MCLAUGHLIN: Miles, if I could add something to that.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, go ahead.

MCLAUGHLIN: You know, I could easily criticize Congress for lack of oversight in some areas, but at the same time, I would say to you complaints to Congress on matters like this do not lead to dead ends in my experience. In fact, I have seen instances in which prominent congressional figures have altered, or in some way seriously affected or even curtailed sensitive intelligence operations by weighing in with their views. So if you have a serious disagreement with a policy or something you witness and you go to a congressional committee, I think you can expect an action rather than dead end.

SIMON: But unfortunately, that process is broken right now. It has worked in the past, and perhaps it will work again in the future.

M. O'BRIEN: Steve Simon, John McLaughlin, thank you both for your time this morning -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: It's now a two-man race for mayor in New Orleans. Incumbent Ray Nagin garnered the most primary votes, unofficially 38 percent. He's going to faceoff against Lieutenant Governor Mitch Landrieu in the May 20th runoff. Landrieu finished in second place with 29 percent of the vote. We're going to the Lieutenant governor coming up in our next hour.

Whoever wins the runoff has a huge task ahead, not only the physical rebuilding of a city just devastated by Hurricane Katrina, but also rebuilding confidence in the future, and that future could be missing a big part of the New Orleans' proud past, bruised and battered Charity Hospital.

CNN senior medical correspondent Sanjay Gupta has our story this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Charity Hospital has been a fixture in New Orleans since 1736. And in the medical community, it was known to have one of the best trauma centers in the country. But most people may not have heard of Charity Hospital until Hurricane Katrina hit, when there was too much water, no power, no food, and no help.

I was inside the flooded hospital, where doctors and nurses struggled to keep their patients alive.

(on camera): This is actually an auditorium that we're standing in now. At one time held up to 40 patients all around this place. Several patients still remain here, as well.

(voice-over): Seven months later, the same auditorium is empty. There are no patients here, or anywhere else in the hospital.

DON SMITHBURG, CEO, LSU HEALTHCARE SERVICES: Katrina shutdown Charity Hospital, University Hospital, all of our clinics, and basically care to about a half a million visits a year.

GUPTA: Last year, Louisiana State University, which runs Charity and University Hospitals, declared that both hospitals were too damaged to reopen, and 90 percent of the staff were let go. The others provide minimal medical services out of tents. That has put a huge strain on the four remaining hospitals operating in and around New Orleans. DR. JAMES MOISES, AM. COLLEGE OF EMERG. PHYSICIANS: E.R. waits for patient who walk into emergency rooms, could be six to 10 hours. We are at the critical point, and we've been there for a few months.

GUPTA: Dr. James Moises worked for charity until a month ago. He resigned so he could speak freely about what's happening at Charity.

MOISES: The reason why we need to reopen Charity Hospital is so that we can address the health care crisis in the city right now.

SMITHBURG: Where we're heading right now is down to the basement of...

GUPTA: LSU health sciences CEO disagrees. He gave CNN an exhaustive tour of Charity Hospital, pointing out the flood damage which shut it down.

SMITHBURG: Where you have some electrical piping and parts of the electrical plant basically just hanging here.

GUPTA: To the untrained eye, this hospital looks salvageable. And according to FEMA estimates, it would only $24 million to repair the damage caused by Katrina.

But a General Accounting Office report says it would costs $258 million, which includes fixing the disrepair that existed even BEFORE Katrina hit. Smithburg agrees with the GAO report.

SMITHBURG: Charity is coming back. It is going to be better than it ever was before. But it might get worse before it gets better.

GUPTA: But Dr. Moises and some other former Charity doctors and nurses believe FEMA's assessment is accurate, and are lobbying hard to have Charity to reopen. Because right now, there's only a shadow of it left.

In November, the remaining staff was reduced to operating out of tents inside New Orleans Convention Center, providing some basic emergency room and outpatient services.

Last month, those tents moved into an abandoned apartment store next to the Superdome. And now, Charity's famous trauma center has opened again, a fraction of what it used to be and 15 miles away. We were there just a few days ago when they were still moving in.

If administrators have their way, this building will not reopen as a hospital. Instead, they hope Charity will be back in about seven years in the form of a new hospital shared with the Veterans Administration. But many wonder if New Orleans can afford to wait that long.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE) S. O'BRIEN: You may not know that Charity Hospital was almost destroyed once before by a hurricane. That was back in 1779. Came back, though. It served New Orleans and New Orleaneans for another 226 years. That's an interesting piece of history there.

M. O'BRIEN: Not many people know that Chad Myers predicted that one, that 1779 one. He's been around there, Chad.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, he has. Yes, he has. We'll talk to Chad in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MARKET REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Still to come, remembering Garrett. Senator Gordon Smith shares an intensely personal, emotional story about the loss of his son to suicide. If you're a parent, you do not want to miss this.

And then we're looking at the "exurbs." You heard me right, exurbs. Commuter towns cropping up beyond the suburbs and the impact it's having on rural areas. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Garrett Lee Smith was like a lot of college kids. He love playing football, going hunting and was dedicated to his family and his church. But he also had bipolar disorder, and suffered deep spells of depression. On September 8th, 2003, Garrett Smith killed himself just one day shy of his 22nd birthday.

In their grief, his parents resolved to do something to help other families whose children may be at risk. His father happens to be an United States senator, and he was in a position to do just that. Just six months after his son's death, Senator Gordon Smith shared his deeply personal story at a Senate hearing on suicide prevention legislation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. GORDON SMITH, AUTHOR, "REMEMBERING GARRETT": I didn't volunteer to be a champion of this issue, but it arose out of the personal experience of being a parent who lost a child to mental illness and suicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: The Garrett Lee Smith Memorial Act was later signed into law by President Bush, with Garrett's parents and brother and sister in attendance. Senator Gordon Smith has now written a book about Garrett's struggle. It's called "Remembering Garrett: One Family's Battle with a Child's Depression." It is a very moving read.

Senator Smith joins us now. Good morning. Good to have you with us.

SMITH: Thank you, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: It's difficult to keep a dry eye reading this book. It must have been very difficult, hard to even imagine writing it.

SMITH: Well, it's a book I wish I had never had to write.

M. O'BRIEN: I imagine.

SMITH: But it was interrupted frequently to compose yourself, because it is a very difficult topic and there's nothing more difficult for a parent to do than to bury a child. When the cause of the child's death is suicide, it's extra cruel, and you beat yourself up pretty well.

M. O'BRIEN: How do you get beyond that moment where you inevitably blame yourself?

SMITH: Well, ultimately by learning about bipolar manic depression and understanding it's a medical condition that our society has for too long swept under the carpet or hidden because of the stigma with mental illness, mental health issues. And I just felt a sense that if I was going to continue in public service, I had to do something with my place in the Senate to try to turn on the light in other homes for other families, and show them what we missed and how they might well be able to save the life of their child.

M. O'BRIEN: It's a complicated, difficult subject but in the time allotted, if you could give people just a sense, people who might feel they have a son or daughter who's battling depression and they might be worried about them, if you have a few little nuggets of advice for them, what would they be?

SMITH: Well, my advice is that, well, like our son, your child is probably normal most of the time, but there are periods where they withdraw from you beyond reach, reason and rationality. And they may be doing things like high risk sports, losing interest in their appearance, attraction to alcohol or drugs, giving away their prized possessions. Senses of hopelessness and despondency. All of these should be warning lights going off in the minds of parents that they might have a much deeper problem. We did. We didn't know.

M. O'BRIEN: The difficult part, though, is many of the things you just described might be things that would be associated with the normal ups a downs of maturing.

SMITH: Yes. Absolutely. My advice to parents is, you know, we're trying to be good parents, we take our kids for physicals, vaccinations, eye check-ups, dental exam. Take them for a mental health check-up with something that's very easy, confidential, private. Find out if they have mental health issues, a predisposition to depression, because it may literally saved their lives.

M. O'BRIEN: Thank you for your time, sir. Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon. The book is "Remembering Garrett: One Family's Battle with a Child's Depression." It's an emotional read, but worth raiding.

SMITH: Thank you so much.

S. O'BRIEN: Ahead in just a moment, top stories including Iran's president speaking out this morning about his country's nuclear ambitions.

Closing arguments in the Zacarias Moussaoui trial.

More on the burden of increasing gas prices.

We'll have a closer look at the latest message from Osama bin Laden.

And the race for mayor in New Orleans. It's now down to two people. A look at that all ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

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