Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Iowa Murder Mystery
Aired May 16, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, murder mystery in Iowa. Hunters stumble on female skeleton remains discovered in a 55-gallon barrel. That`s right, a body in a barrel. We know that she`s 5-8, approximately 28 years of age, with light brown hair. Interested parties tonight on pins and needles, waiting for an ID to be made. In the area, there are three known missing women, and she`s not one of them.
And tonight: A 47-year-old New Hampshire woman charged with killing a 24-year-old boyfriend. Tonight, police combing her estate for possibly other bodies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you have is, you have a fairly unstable woman who was reacting to a traumatic stress situation in a certain way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, a 115-acre horse farm the alleged crime scene in the death of a 24-year-old young man. A 47-year-old New Hampshire woman charged with murder 1. Tonight, investigators suspect she may be linked to other male victims. Neighbors say she`s got a history of meeting much younger men who suddenly disappear.
But first tonight, skeletal remains discovered in a barrel in Iowa. Do we have a break in a cold case? Tonight, we are taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s clear to us that what we`re dealing with is a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friday morning, the Pottawattamie County attorney and sheriff`s department chief deputy, Jim Matthai (ph), gave details about the county`s latest murder investigation, a woman`s skeletal remains found in a barrel near Council Bluffs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, I`ve got a window of time of, you know, maybe 5 years, maybe 25 years. You know, we really have two separate investigations. We want to identify the body, and then we`re going to obviously have a homicide investigation we`re dealing with, as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we go into the background of the story, an incredible story, let`s go straight out to Chad Nation, crime reporter with "The Council Bluffs Daily Nonpareil." Where was the barrel found?
CHAD NATION, "COUNCIL BLUFFS DAILY NONPAREIL": The barrel was found right north of the Pottawattamie County jail, which is north of Council Bluffs, Iowa.
GRACE: And how was it found, Chad?
NATION: Well, it was submerged in an area that had formerly been under water, but over the last few years has dried up.
GRACE: So apparently, it was thrown into water at the time it was disposed of, and now the water has receded?
NATION: Correct. That`s what we`re understanding at this point.
GRACE: Now, who was out there? Who would find this barrel. That`s usually a clue, as to who finds a body.
NATION: Well, it was discovered by two mushroom hunters.
GRACE: Say what?
NATION: Two mushroom hunters.
GRACE: OK. Two mushroom hunters find a barrel with a body in it. OK. It sounds like the beginning of a Lifetime story, but go ahead.
NATION: Well, two mushroom hunters were out in the area on May 6, when they stumbled upon the barrel. The barrel was apparently rusted through, and they could see what appeared to be human remains inside. And they immediately contacted the Pottawattamie County sheriff`s office.
GRACE: Chad, when you say human remains, what was left of the woman?
NATION: Nothing -- there was no soft tissue remaining, and it was all skeletal remains.
GRACE: So they could look through the outside of the barrel and see bones.
NATION: That is correct.
GRACE: OK. Now, I understand that three young women have gone missing in the general area. Who are they?
NATION: The first one happened in 1995, and it was a Mason City news anchor named Jodi Huisentruit.
GRACE: Right. The newscaster, yes.
NATION: Yes. They`ve ruled that out already. We`ve also had a woman missing in town the last couple of weeks by the name of Tracy Tribble.
GRACE: Yes?
NATION: And there`s a young girl out of Omaha, Nebraska, which is across the river, who`s been missing since last year.
GRACE: Now, question. How have they ruled them out? You`ve got Jodi Huisentruit, Tracy Tribble and -- who`s the other one? Amber Harris?
NATION: Amber Harris.
GRACE: OK. How have they been ruled them out. I mean, if all there are are skeletal remains, how do we know she`s not one of them?
NATION: Well, a forensic anthropologist has been called in to investigate the remains, and they have determined that from the height of the remains, it would be too tall to be Jodi Huisentruit. And as long as they`ve been there, they can rule out the other two, who`ve only been missing for under a year, of course.
GRACE: Take a listen to what local prosecutors had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our belief is that it was put there because it was, at least at that time, under water.
Right now, I`ve got a window of time of, you know, maybe 5 years, maybe 25 years to deal with. And you know, that`s going to -- obviously, we`re going to have a lot of things to sift through. It it`s clear to us that what we`re dealing with is a homicide.
You know, we really have two separate investigations going. Number one, obviously, we want to identify the body. And then we`re going to obviously have a homicide investigation to be dealing with, as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Dr. Bruce Levy, medical examiner and forensic expert. how can they tell, Dr. Levy, that the body has been there 5 to 25 years? That`s actually not a very narrow window. That`s a big window.
BRUCE LEVY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSICS EXPERT: That is a very big window, and it`s based on the fact that -- the fact that all of the flesh, the soft tissue, all of the flesh is gone from the body leaves you knowing that we`re dealing with something that took at least several years to happen. And they obviously have other evidence that`s allowing them to draw this outside limit of 25 years, and it may not be related to the condition of the body but other factors that they`ve been able to develop.
GRACE: Like what?
LEVY: Well, things such as where it was found, how long water has been in that area, what`s been going on in that location over the years. It may be that this is an area that 25 years ago, something else was going on and they know it couldn`t have been there more than that.
GRACE: You mean like aging the barrel or something to do with the clothing? I get it.
To Chad Nation, crime reporter with "Council Bluffs Daily Nonpareil." Chad, what can you tell me about the clothing the lady was wearing? It was jeans, correct?
NATION: Correct. She was wearing a pair of size 11 jeans, with the brand name of Lee, and...
GRACE: Go ahead.
NATION: ... and a sweater. She had a sweater believed to be turquoise. They were both -- they were able to identify both of those articles of clothing.
GRACE: Back to Dr. Bruce Levy, our forensic expert. Dr. Levy, a lot of things could be done with the jeans, for instance, to determine when that style, that brand was made, where it was distributed, possibly even right down to the store or the lot or the batch number. That can easily be done with mass production.
LEVY: It can be, and I`m sure that is one thing that, if they haven`t done already, they will be doing.
GRACE: And back to you, Chad Nation. Chad, you did say it was a white female? Did she have short brown hair, correct?
NATION: Short, straight brown hair.
GRACE: All right. To Dr. Levy. How do determine the age of -- I mean, the age of the person when you find the bones? How can you look at the bones and determine that? And also, if the hair had not been there, can you look at the bones and determine male-female or race?
LEVY: Well, you can do all of those things. And an anthropologist is going to be able to examine the bones, and from the bones give you an estimate of how large this person was. And typically, it`s not, This person was 5 feet, 8 inches tall, but is a range from, say, 5 feet, 6 inches to 5 feet, 10 inches. The same thing with age...
GRACE: Why? Why? You can`t measure the bones and determine the height?
LEVY: Well, you can measure the bones. And what they do is they`re going to measure the length of several different bones. But each person is a little bit different. Nobody is a exactly textbook. So each bone is going to introduce a little bit of error in there, and you have to account for that.
It`s the same thing with age. You`re not going to get an exact age. The way an anthropologist determines the age of a person from bones is by looking at how the bones have fused together. Over time, the bones in the body change. Those changes are predictable. They can be observed. But again, nobody is exactly textbook. Everybody is a little bit different.
The same exact thing with race. There are classic characteristics of race on skeletons that allow you to determine race. Unfortunately, in America...
GRACE: Like what? What, what? I want to hear this. How can you look at a skeleton and determine race?
LEVY: Well, literally, you can look at, for example, the shape of the eyes, the shape of the forehead, various other features of the body. And there are features that are common to the three races that there are, to whites, to blacks and to Asians. Unfortunately...
GRACE: Can I ask you something?
LEVY: Sure.
GRACE: How does looking at a head, the eye socket, tell you if the person is white, black or Asian?
LEVY: Well, the shapes of the eyes, the shape of the nasal openings. All these shapes are different, and they`re, in fact, unique from one race to another. And the problem in America...
GRACE: Can you be specific because I don`t -- when I look at a person with their skin, I can`t -- I can`t see what you`re talking about. So when I`m looking at the skeletal eye socket, what would you look for in a white person?
LEVY: Well, you`re going to look at the size and the shape of the eyes, how far apart they`re spread from each other. You`re going to see differences between the races. The Asians have a more almond-shaped opening. Caucasians have a rounder opening. African-Americans or Africans are going to have a flatter nasal bridge. So there are features unique to the race. Unfortunately, in America, we have a very integrated, mixed racial society. So frequently, you`re going to look at these bones...
GRACE: Right.
LEVY: ... and you`re going to get answers that suggest that there may be a history of more than one race in a person.
GRACE: Now, I`ve always known from working with medical examiners as a prosecutor, that you could look at bones and determine race.
LEVY: Yes.
GRACE: Is it strictly based on the skull, or is there something about the limbs themselves or just the skull?
LEVY: It`s typically the skull is the main...
GRACE: Right.
LEVY: ... area you`re going to be looking at to determine race.
GRACE: Gotcha. With us, Dr. Bruce Levy.
Let`s go to the lines, Elizabeth. Let`s go to Brian in Iowa. Hi, Brian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good evening, Nancy. My question is, since the body was apparently under water for at least some period of time, what effect would that have on the aging process, as far as speeding up the deterioration of the flesh?
GRACE: Good question. Dr. Levy?
LEVY: Well, it`s definitely going to have an effect. And it`s also going to be an effect that it`s been sealed in a barrel for some number of years until the rust wore its way through the barrel. So the factors you`re going to look at is whether there`s water or not, what the temperature of the environment was, and what access, obviously, once the barrel was breached, that other creatures would have to get into that barrel, to actually begin to scatter the remains that were still left.
GRACE: Joining me right now by phone, a special guest with us tonight, Matt Wilber. He is the county attorney. Mr. Wilber, thank you for being with us.
MATT WILBER, POTTAWATTAMIE COUNTY ATTORNEY: Sure, Nancy.
GRACE: Could you tell us -- I know a lot of this you`re going to keep close to the vest, but where are you in the investigation tonight?
WILBER: Well, you know, obviously, right now, we`re really trying to just pin down the ID of our victim. And we`ve got a forensic odontologist that we`re getting ready to consult with. It`s basically a dentist, somebody to look at the teeth, hopefully, help us narrow down the age. The range our anthropologist gave us for our victim was 24 to 32 years old. And that`s a pretty broad range for us to be dealing with. And so we`re trying to look at different things to maybe narrow that window.
We have a very good tag from the jeans she was wearing, and we`re in the process of getting that, you know, a nice high resolution photograph taken. We`re going to e-mail that off to some folks we`ve been in contact with at the Lee Jeans Company and hope that they can give us some more specific information.
GRACE: Tonight, we are bringing breaking developments in a case, a stunner -- two mushroom hunters find a barrel, revealed inside, the skeletal remains of a woman.
Back to Matt Wilber, the county attorney. Matt, is it true that the victim had extensive dental work? What do you mean by that?
WILBER: Well, I guess she had a lot of fillings, and she had a wonderful set of teeth that were really in pristine condition. And so we feel pretty optimistic that if we can get a good tip, which is frankly one of the reasons that we`re reaching out to you -- if we can get a good tip and can compare some dental records, I feel very optimistic we`re going to get a good ID.
GRACE: Well, obviously, this is somebody with a great insurance plan, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
Everybody, we are trying desperately to find any clue relating to the remains found, a body in a barrel, a woman, a white female, 5-8, size 11 jeans, age 24 to 32 years old. Can you help us?
Back to the county attorney. Have there been any similar crimes in the past in this area?
WILBER: Well, I`m aware of a serial killer -- I want to say his name was Robinson -- down from around the Kansas City area that had -- apparently, his MO was to put victims into barrels. We haven`t been able to check that out, you know, very thoroughly at this point, but that`s just one of the things we`re looking at.
GRACE: Let`s go to Clark Goldband. Clark, this is not the first time a victim has been placed in a barrel.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Surprisingly, no, Nancy. There are about five cases in the past six years that we`ve found that involved this same MO, if you will. Now, in 2005, there`s a 32-year- old female found in Ohio in a barrel. She was in the barrel about three years. All of these people have been found, Nancy, and they were all IDed. Now, here`s a case that is crazy -- 1999. If we can take a look at what happened in 1999, queens, New York, they found someone who was in a barrel, Nancy, for 30 years, 1969. And they could tell she was pregnant. So there is some hope in this case. If they can ID someone who was in a barrel for 30 years, then, hopefully, they should ID this person.
GRACE: We`ll all be right back with this case. It`s near Council Bluffs. It`s western Iowa. A lady`s body in a barrel. We don`t know how long it`s been there, somewhere between 5 and 25 years. Police on the search tonight.
Quickly, as we go to break, we are taking your calls. Tonight, "On the Docket," The Falls bar where murdered student Imette St. Guillen was last seen alive, could lose its liquor license. The bouncer at the bar, an ex-con, Darrell Littlejohn, charged with Imette`s February 25 murder, now suspected in other similar attacks, The Falls bar under fire for failing to cooperate with police and for violating state law by hiring a felon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were looking for mushrooms in a field north of Council Bluffs when they stumbled upon a mystery. What the two mushroom hunters found was a 55-gallon barrel similar to this one. Investigators believe, at some point, the barrel was under water. Part of the barrel had also rusted out, which enabled them to look inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is straight out of a Carl Hiasson (ph) novel, but it`s real. Near Council Bluffs, Iowa, in western Iowa, two mushroom hunters minding their own business stumble upon a huge drum, a barrel, starting to rust through. They look in and find a skeleton. Not exactly what they were hunting for that day.
We are taking your calls. Let`s go straight out to Michelle in Nebraska. Hi, Michelle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, the day before they announced the body in the barrel, there was another discovery of human remains in a park.
GRACE: Near the same area?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, right across the river into Omaha.
GRACE: What, Ellie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chad Nation can talk about it.
GRACE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chad Nation? I think he knows about that case.
GRACE: Oh, Chad Nation can tell me? Chad, are you familiar with that?
NATION: The night before the announcement, it would have been Thursday, it was -- the Omaha Police Department was tipped of that there were remains in a park in north Omaha titled Hummel (ph) Park. Those remains have been excavated, as well, and they have not -- yet to be identified...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Excavated? I thought you meant that someone found a dead body. They were buried, as well?
NATION: Correct.
GRACE: Lord have mercy! OK. Any connection? Let`s go to Matt Wilber, the county attorney joining us out of Council Bluffs. I never had any idea there was so much criminal activity in Council Bluffs, Iowa.
WILBER: Yes. You know, I thought it was God`s country.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Yes! What the hey`s going on?
WILBER: You know, the -- I don`t believe that that Omaha case is related to ours. The Omaha police have been pretty tight-lipped so far about what they`ve found, but it didn`t involve a barrel. It`s a different area. And at this point, at least, we`re treating the cases as completely unrelated.
GRACE: Matt, how long have you been practicing law there?.
WILBER: Well, I`ve been county lawyer only three years. I`ve been out of law school now 11.
GRACE: Did you ever imagine you were going to get a crime wave like this?
WILBER: You know, no.
GRACE: No.
WILBER: To tell you the truth, I really didn`t.
GRACE: To put it shortly, no.
Let`s go to Tara in Indiana. Tara, welcome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, are they going to send divers in, check for other remains in this area? I mean, that`s kind of strange. Wouldn`t they want to see if there`s anything else?
GRACE: Good question. What about it, Matt?
WILBER: The area that we got the barrel out of is no longer under water. It`s kind of a swampy area, as far as it`s wet, it`s very close to the water table, but it`s not under water. Unfortunately, we are aware of an area fairly close by where -- near some railroad tracks, where quite a few barrels had been dumped over the years.
GRACE: Oh, no.
WILBER: And we are really hoping that we don`t have to start going through...
GRACE: You know what?
WILBER: ... those one by one.
GRACE: Matt, that`s really interesting because -- I`m going to go to Pat Brown on this one, criminal profiler. Pat, for someone to think through the disposal in this manner would suggest it may not be their first time, this is not just a spur of the moment killing. They put a lot of thought. Now we`ve got two bodies buried in approximately -- a close -- approximately close area. What is your take on it? Should they be looking at these other barrels?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Nancy, I think you always should look at all your leads because you never want to assume something and say, Well, it couldn`t be this. (INAUDIBLE) the explanation that there was another serial killer out there who`d done the barrel thing. But most of the time, it`s somebody who knows the victim. The fact that she was dressed and put in a barrel leads me to believe somebody knew her and killed her in a frenzy, a husband or a boyfriend, and wanted to dispose of her in a way she couldn`t be found.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping that anyone out there that has information, you know, about missing persons can help us because we have no idea, you know, who this person might be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, if you`re planning to take it easy and kick back and retire to Council Bluffs, western Iowa, don`t, OK? There`s a lot of action going on up there. Right now, we are bringing you a breaking story, a body found in a rusted container by two mushroom hunters. And then we learn another body has been found buried in an Omaha park not far away. Very rarely has this area of the country seen a crime wave.
Let`s go straight to the lines. Lisa in Virginia. Hi, Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I think you`re fabulous.
GRACE: Bless you! Remember, we repeat at 10:00. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Considering the barrel was in such great shape, is there any way that they could track down through the kind of barrel through the different companies?
GRACE: You`re absolutely correct. What about that, Matt Wilber? Thought of it?
WILBER: Yes. Absolutely. Actually, there was a pretty good side seal. This was like an oil barrel, and so it had kind of one of those places to put, like, an oil spigot to it. And that seal, actually, was in very good condition. We were able to get some patent numbers off it, manufacturing information off of it. And so we`re trying to run that down, as well, as well as -- it`s the sheriff`s office, really, that`s leading this investigation, and they`re looking into maybe having a metallurgist take a look at the barrel itself and see if we can age the decomposition of that.
GRACE: With us the county attorney, Matt Wilber. He had no idea he was about to encounter a crime wave when he took office.
Let`s go to Mike in Indiana. Hi, Mike.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, how do they know that the barrel wasn`t rusty before whoever had put the body in there?
GRACE: Good question. What about it, Bruce Levy?
LEVY: Well, they`re probably not going to know that for sure because you`re not going to know what the condition of that barrel was at the time that this body was put into it. You`re going to have to test that barrel and try and figure out where it came from. And that`s going to help put it all together.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our belief is, is that it was put there because it was, at least at that time, under water. Right now, I`ve got a window of time of, you know, maybe five years, maybe 25 years to deal with. And, you know, that`s going to -- obviously, we`re going to have a lot of things to sift through. It`s clear to us that what we`re dealing with is a homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you across the country to the New Hampshire black widow story, let`s finish up with this, a body found in a barrel by two mushroom hunters. Bring it all together for me, Pat Lalama.
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, this is a tough one, but, essentially, it`s a 55-pound barrel. There`s a hole in it. It`s rusty. It`s been submerged in water. There is a skeleton, literally, no soft tissue, a woman somewhere between 24 and 32, 5`8", and who knows.
But the one thing that I can tell you is that there`s new hope, once again, for a local family, because 17 years ago 31-year-old Barbara Lenz, who is from the area, went missing. No reason. No phone call, no explanation to anyone, just left.
And a search of her home shows coffee pot still on and brewing, laundry half-folded, keys in purse there. No one`s seen her since, and this family has been desperately asking local authorities to hurry and check and see if it possibly could be Barbara Lends, who was 31 years old at the time.
GRACE: And very quickly, Clark Goldband, we had to go to break. You were telling us about the other similar MOs?
GOLDBAND: Sure, Nancy, and there are quite a few, but there`s a common thread, and it`s what Pat was just speaking about a moment ago, this 55-gallon drum used in all of these cases. Now, we keep saying 55-gallon, right?
GRACE: Yes.
GOLDBAND: What is 55-gallon? How big is 55-gallon? It`s from the top of this screen down to the bottom and about a third of the way across. So you can definitely fit a body in there. It holds about 104 two-liter bottles of soda, so there`s quite room in there for someone to fit.
We see, in 2003, we have someone named Denise Ann Johnson, her remains found in a barrel. She was only there for about two weeks. Suzette Trouten (ph) and her friend were found in this barrel by an accused serial killer. He killed many women but only threw these two in a barrel.
And there`s a crazy act on the Las Vegas strip, Nancy, 2001, Christine Smith (ph). They thought she was killed by an act of voodoo, voodoo materials also found inside that barrel with her body.
GRACE: Always the latest legal updates from Clark Goldband.
OK, and very quickly, to Alan Ripka, I guess a lot of people are on pins and needles tonight wondering who this woman is and will she be identified? Probably whoever put her in the barrel is hoping she`s not going to be identified tonight.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think so, Nancy. I think that person`s probably on pins and needles watching the news, hearing what`s going on. Actually, though, even if they`re alive -- I mean, if this thing happened 20, 25 years ago, chances are they may not be in the same town, they could have died, who knows. And, obviously, the older it is, the harder it is for the prosecution to prove.
GRACE: And last question, to Michael Mazzariello, veteran trial lawyer, even though there`s no soft body tissue left, is there any way to make a DNA comparison? Do we have anything left?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We have teeth. We have bone. And I have a question for everyone. Wouldn`t that barrel float, unless it had a hole in it? If he put the body in it, Nancy, hole, without a hole in it, and through it in water, that barrel would float. So we might not be...
GRACE: Interesting question.
What about it, Dr. Levy?
LEVY: Well, you would, if that barrel was sealed up watertight, you`re going to need the water to get in there before it`s going to sink. So what you`ve got to do is you`re going to have to have some kind of either hole or some way for water to get in there to allow it to sink.
GRACE: OK. We are switching gears, everybody. We are taking you across the country to a possible black widow story. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... police made at least two trips to the farmhouse that LaBarre shared with Kenneth Countie. It was then that authorities got their first look at human remains burning in a pit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In that pile, they observed a -- they described as a bone, approximately 3 to 3.5 inches in length.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, she`s charged with murder. I don`t know what the specifics are. I don`t know if there`s a body that they have found. I don`t know if there are body parts they have found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the reporter with the "Boston Herald," Joe Dwinell. Welcome, Joe. Bring us up to date. Do we have another black widow killer on our hands?
JOE DWINELL, REPORTER, "BOSTON HERALD": Well, we have an accused man- burner in Epping, New Hampshire. That`s what we have, Nancy.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. An accused man-burner? OK, now I remember why I went to law school. Go ahead. Tell me about the accused man-burner.
(LAUGHTER)
DWINELL: Well, Sheila LaBarre is now facing a first-degree murder charge. She`s being held in jail, no bail. She`s accused of killing 24- year-old Kenneth Countie on her 115-acre farm...
GRACE: Hey, she`s a looker.
DWINELL: ... in Epping, New Hampshire.
GRACE: Can you see this? This is a very attractive lady.
DWINELL: Forty-seven years old. He was 24. But the story goes on from there, Nancy. He was allegedly...
GRACE: I don`t know. I think that pretty much says it all, Joe, but go ahead.
DWINELL: Well, he was seen in a Wal-Mart before he was reported missing. He was in a wheelchair. She was piling, you know, containers, gasoline containers on him, and people were concerned.
Then, the authorities were brought to her farm, and they have now charged her with his murder. They have found kind of ashen remains they believe are Kenneth Countie`s.
GRACE: Wait a minute, Elizabeth. Is this him? Is this the -- oh, lord. He served our country? I did not know that.
We`re talking about a 24-year-old man whose remains we believe were found charred on a beautiful 100-plus acre horse farm. Now behind bars, under suspicion, his 47-year-old lover.
Now, Joe Dwinell is with us from the "Boston Herald," and we are taking your calls on this story. Is there a possibility, Joe, before I delve into this case, that she could be linked to other killings? What happened to the elderly gentleman that she lived with, the guy that owned the horse farm?
DWINELL: Right. The ex-wife told the "Herald" that she wants them to go back and find out if she really deserves to have this farm. She doesn`t think she does. And they`re also going to go look at the autopsy report because he was cremated. His name was Wilkeford (ph). And they`re wondering, you know, what actually happened there. Also, there`s a report of another missing man. So...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Let me get my calculator. Hold on. We`ve got the 74-year-old live-in. She was living there on the horse farm with him. He suddenly dies of natural causes and she orders him to be cremated, correct?
DWINELL: That`s correct.
GRACE: OK. Now we`ve got...
DWINELL: That`s in 2000.
GRACE: ... the 24 -- 2000. Now we`ve got the 24-year-old young man that she was dating?
DWINELL: He was a farmhand, Kenneth Countie. He was being labeled as a farmhand, working on this beautiful farm, as you said. And he is now believed to be dead at the hands of -- allegedly -- Sheila LaBarre.
GRACE: OK, now, let me get something straight, Joe. Didn`t police come to the door, and she says, "He can`t come to the door; he`s in the bathtub"?
DWINELL: Or he`s in the bag. That`s the report -- that`s one report that she said he`s in the bag.
GRACE: No, an earlier report, an earlier report when he was still alive. You know, his parents had been looking for him for a period of time. They convinced the local police to go to the farm. The police go to the farm, knock, knock, knock, knock. She comes to the door and goes, "Oh, he`s in the bathtub." And, in fact, he comes out of the bathtub and comes to the door. Later, we fine his charred remains.
What I`m saying is, if she`s in the house with him and he`s taking a bath, they`re dating, OK? I think we could safely say that, Joe.
DWINELL: I think you could safely say that, yes.
GRACE: OK. So we`ve got the old guy, we`ve got the 24-year-old guy. Is there another?
DWINELL: There`s another missing man.
GRACE: Oh, lord.
DWINELL: His last address was this farm, and now there`s missing persons reports out on him, and they want authorities to investigate. Authorities have spent 17 hours up on this farm looking at various piles of ash, wondering, you know, they`re looking at blood, tissue, zippers, bone, just charred unknowns is the way they`re saying it.
GRACE: Joe, where would she meet these guys?
DWINELL: Well, the 24-year-old is from Massachusetts. He told his buddies, "I`m just going to be gone for the weekend." So I`m not sure -- it`s a question everyone is asking. How did they meet? But she seems to have, you know, met a lot of people up on this farm.
GRACE: Well, it`s my understanding -- let`s go to Sheila LaBarre`s lawyer joining us tonight, speaking on her behalf. Welcome to Jeffrey Denner.
Thank you for being with us, Jeffrey.
JEFFREY DENNER, ATTORNEY FOR SHEILA LABARRE: It`s my pleasure, Nancy.
GRACE: So, Jeffrey, where would your client meet these guys?
DENNER: Oh, I think a variety of different ways. I think that on the Internet and different telephone services, referred by different friends, people who would come and work on the farm and stay for a period of time and leave, a lot of transient people.
GRACE: OK, Jeffrey, tough question. And if this case goes to trial, you may be asked this at trial. She started off as a blonde with dark roots. When she was apprehended at a local fast-food restaurant in Boston, she had about $85,000 worth of cash and checks and had red hair with purple streaks in it. Was she trying to change her identity?
DENNER: No. I think that -- she didn`t have $85,000 in cash. She had a cashier check for around, I think, $50,000. The rest was in cashier. Consulted with a lawyer in New Hampshire and was trying to hire counsel, because it was pretty clear that she was the focus of this investigation. And she was referred down to Massachusetts to find counsel down here.
GRACE: Now, you`re telling me she did not have $85,000. But Ellie is telling me she had cash and cashier`s checks to the tune of about $84,000.
DENNER: No, she had $84,000, but it wasn`t all in cash. It was a cashier`s check and cash.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
DENNER: Most of it was a cashier`s check.
GRACE: OK.
(NEWSBREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I wanted to change my appearance, the last thing in the world I would do, without getting too far into that, is put purple streaks in my hair and direct attention to myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Do we have another black widow killer on our hands?
Out to Pat Lalama. Pat, sum it up for me.
LALAMA: Well, there`s a lot of interesting aspects to this case that make it far beyond just about anything I`ve heard. We`ve got to remember that she has made -- she has talked constantly about some of her alleged victims being pedophiles. And she has this thing about pedophiles.
And she allegedly played -- had him on the phone while she called police and said, "Tell them, tell them, aren`t you a pedophile?" And the man is allegedly in the background gurgling, saying in a faint voice, "Yes, I am," and then apparently there`s the sound of him vomiting and then fainting and...
GRACE: Thanks, Pat.
LALAMA: And then she accuses him of faking it. But that`s important stuff.
Now, the other thing is, though, Nancy, that allegedly she told the cops when she saw the burning flesh, "Oh, that`s a bunny rabbit. That`s one of my bunny rabbits."
So, you know, there are some interesting things to consider with this woman. Also, I just wanted to tell you this man, Kenneth, according to his own mother, he had the mental capacity half his age. He was 24 and had the capacity of a 12-year-old.
He had applied for the military. They turned him down, and he got a job at a car wash, and they met through a telephone dating service.
GRACE: Well, you know, Pat Lalama, you always have -- let me just say -- background on everything. With us, investigative reporter Pat Lalama.
LALAMA: Thank you.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to Leslie Austin. Based on what Lalama is telling me, I sense an insanity defense brewing. Here it comes.
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, this is a technical problem. Psychiatrically, yes, this sounds like a totally psychotic person. The legal issue is different. Did she know of the consequences of her actions at the time she committed them? That`s going to be for the lawyers to determine, but psychiatrically she surely sounds very, very psychotic and seriously ill.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Lynn in Minnesota. Hi, Lynn.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes, dear.
CALLER: I`m just wondering -- I saw the beginning pictures and now the later ones. She`s all dressed in black. Is there any way it could be Satanic or some kind of a ritual killing, if she`s doing it with more than one man?
GRACE: Hmm.
Jeffrey Denner, right now do you have any idea what your defense is going to be?
DENNER: We`re not ruling out any defense. A lot of what I`m hearing tonight is simply somewhere between hyperbole and speculation. You don`t even have a murder; you have remains, allegedly, of one individual. You have no indication it`s murder.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute, though, Jeff.
DENNER: At most, you have disposing of a body.
GRACE: Jeff, I mean, you think the guy committed suicide, then burned himself?
DENNER: Not at all. There are many different ways people die.
GRACE: OK.
DENNER: And...
GRACE: And then burn themselves?
DENNER: And they`re not necessarily -- no, that`s where the disposing of the body comes in. Assuming solely for the sake of argument that she disposed of a body, there`s absolutely no proof indicating that she killed this person, that she had any motive to kill this person.
It`s wonderful to sell newspapers and TV time. It`s wonderful to say that he had the mind of a 12-year-old. On the other hand, you saw a wonderful military picture of him. You see he at least got through a good part of Army basic training. He was emancipated. He wasn`t living at home. He held a lot of different jobs. He was a strong young man who almost made it through military training.
GRACE: I`ve got a question for you. I`ve got a question for you.
DENNER: Yes?
GRACE: Why, if you suddenly fell down the steps, God forbid, broke your neck and died, I would not drag you to the back of my apartment and burn your body. I would call 911.
So you`re going to have to answer the question to a jury why she would burn his body, and why she made that crazy call to police trying to get him to confess that he was a pedophile, and why was she pushing him -- this man was of sound mind of body -- why was she pushing him through a Wal-Mart in a wheelchair buying diesel fuel? Not one vehicle on her estate was diesel fuel.
DENNER: Well, I`m gratified to hear, if I fall down in your house, you`re not going to burn my body. I will keep that in mind.
GRACE: Well, I didn`t say I promised. I just suggested I wouldn`t burn your body.
DENNER: On a more material level, there are a variety of things that could have happened here that may well have happened here that I`m not in a position to talk about that don`t result in accidental death but also are justifiable homicide. There`s a wide range of things...
GRACE: Jeffrey...
DENNER: ... that have occurred or could. And there`s clearly a psychiatric element here. We`re not ruling anything out, if not an insanity defense, many individuals have very strange reactions, particularly when they`re not starting with perhaps perspective...
GRACE: Full deck of cards?
DENNER: ... we start -- and all the cards. But there can be many different, unusual reactions to traumatic stress situations.
GRACE: I`ve got another question for you.
DENNER: Yes?
GRACE: With us the defense attorney for Sheila LaBarre. Jeffrey, why does she order her 74-year-old live-in to be cremated?
DENNER: I don`t know. What I will tell you is he was a...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s the second burned body on -- that`s the second body.
DENNER: They had a very strong -- well, she didn`t cremate him. They had a very strong relationship. They lived in a kind of common law marriage for many years. He had counsel when he devised everything to her. A good deal of the property he had came through intervevos trust (ph), not even through the will.
She was a beautiful woman at one point, and there are many different good reasons. They were together for a long time before this happened. Though his own daughter had some questions about his testamentary intent and capacity, it was never challenged through the courts. It`s very easy to say anything now; it`s very easy to speculate now. And there`s simply no evidence to that.
GRACE: Well, that`s why we have you here, to give us the facts.
Very quickly to Michael Mazzariello, let`s talk about Trial 101. If this case goes to trial, are we going to have similar transactions?
MAZZARIELLO: Maybe. But if I was Jeff, I would fight that tooth and nail, Nancy. We have to concentrate on one here. I agree with Jeff entirely. It`s all hyperbole at this point.
GRACE: Oh, good lord.
MAZZARIELLO: And, remember, Nancy, the Durst trial in Texas where he cut up a body and put it in a bag, and they acquitted him. So there are things that happen to people who do get killed and explanations of what happened...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Alan Ripka, what about similar transactions?
RIPKA: Well, obviously, he hopes they don`t come in, but if they do he`s in big trouble. And I`ll tell you this: He`s going to have to describe why there`s blood all over the kitchen and all over the house.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Is there another black widow killer in our midst? Welcome back, everybody.
Very quickly, Clark Goldband, black widow, where do we get the name?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, we know from the spider who kills their prey, Margaret Rudin, you know about her. She married...
GRACE: You`re so dramatic. Go ahead.
GOLDBAND: I was trying to give a little feeling. She killed her fifth husband -- all of them were millionaires -- to try to get $12 million bucks. It didn`t work out so well. She was convicted for 20 years.
Velma Barfield, who didn`t she kill? She killed about 10 or 15 people. They proved one; she was the first female executed in 20 years.
Then lastly, Susan Wright stabbed her hundred 100-plus times, said it was self-defense, but the jury did not buy it.
GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, we are fascinated, in general, with female killers, why?
AUSTIN: Well, statistically, many more men kill than women, and the motive killing is usually much more personal with women and much more emotional. So there are fewer women and certainly fewer women serial killers than men.
GRACE: To the attorney for Sheila LaBarre, a veteran trial lawyer himself, Jeffrey Denner, Jeff, what about this note that she had where she writes all the information about burning the body, and then tries to say that she had been thinking about the Natalee Holloway case, and what may have happened to Natalee Holloway, and was jotting down notes, that that`s what the letter was all about?
DENNER: Obviously, anyone who sends in letters, as she does, to newspapers, and TV stations, and radio stations, completely contrary to what her counsel is telling her to do, has certain psychiatric elements to the case that`s going to be presented.
GRACE: Got you. Jeff, I`ve got to tell you something -- go ahead, sir.
DENNER: No, in this particular case, she has many rambling, speculative type of things in the ledgers that they have found. It is absolutely unclear what any of that stuff means. In this particular notation, it said, "5`4", 110 pounds." Kenneth Countie was not 5`4", 110 pounds. Natalee Holloway was. This is a woman who had wild and wild speculations.
GRACE: I see where you`re heading.
DENNER: And who knows what...
GRACE: You`re headed right for the insanity defense, and we will be watching. With us, veteran trial lawyer Jeff Denner. And, Amy, sorry we couldn`t get to your call. We hope to hear from you tomorrow night.
We remember tonight Army Sergeant Dale Brem (ph), 23, California, an experienced vet, survived by his wife. Tonight, Dale Brem (ph), an American hero.
Thank you to all of my guests. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, friend.
END
