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Nancy Grace

Person of Interest in Police Officer`s Death Wounded in Shootout

Aired May 18, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the Duke lacrosse multiple rape investigation finally in court. Today, one of three players, all three formally indicted for raping a student-turned-stripper. The defense scores one round and will be allowed to examine the alleged victim`s cell phone she reportedly used the night of the sex assaults.
Also tonight, get your tar and feathers because if this is true, you`ll need them. An elementary school official charged with forcing a 10- year-old student to pose nude in the school office to add the shots to his child porn collection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He threatened to pull down my pants. I tried to stop him, but I couldn`t. I was scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, an elementary school official under arrest for snapping nude shots of a 10-year-old student.

But first tonight, the Duke lacrosse multiple rape scandal takes center stage, one of three lacrosse players in court today, the tension so thick in court, you could cut it with a knife, both sides going head to head, and we haven`t even struck a jury. Tonight, we are taking your calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a court of law. This is my court. If anybody thought that this was going to be a public forum in which somebody could stand and speak, that is not going to be allowed. I will put you in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s important to get experts access to that phone immediately. And hopefully, the phone has not been tampered with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would wonder what -- what evidence he thinks that he`s entitled to (INAUDIBLE) on that telephone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why wouldn`t we know -- be able to know the last 10 calls?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two hundred thousand dollars is within the guidelines for the nature of this charge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to hear your bond since he`s out on bond. I don`t want to hear your bond request today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we take you to the Duke rape investigation, we`re getting breaking news out of Philadelphia. Remember last night, we featured an alleged cop killer with the tinted yellow eyes. Apparently, there is a big break in the case, this afternoon, a man shot down in gunfire with police. He is now a person of interest in the case.

Let`s go to reporter with Metro Networks Radio, Tom McDonald. Tom, who is this guy that was shot down by police today?

TOM MCDONALD, METRO NETWORKS RADIO: Nancy, he`s 23-year-old Solomon Montgomery (ph). Police arrested him on a warrant in a California robbery. But what they`re truly looking for is the killer of Officer Gary Skerski. Our sources tell us that his family turned him in to police, showing a picture with that jacket that you see in the video you`re playing right now.

Police went to the neighborhood in the Olney (ph) section of Philadelphia. They went to get him. He came out, jumped into an SUV, rammed a police car. A second police car rammed into the back of his SUV. Then there was a foot chase. At the end of the foot chase, Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson (ph) says, he reached into his pocket, and police fired, hitting him twice. When they found out what was in his pockets, it was two semi-automatic weapons.

GRACE: Holy moley!

MCDONALD: Montgomery has been taken to a hospital, where he is in custody right now. Police are still trying to sort things out. And as you said, he is considered a person of interest. They will not call him a suspect, at this point.

GRACE: So with us, Tom McDonald, reporter with Metro Networks Radio. Tom, are you telling me police saw him reach down for what they believe is the gun, they clipped him twice, and when they got to him, he had two guns with him?

MCDONALD: One in each pocket, Nancy.

GRACE: Tom, Tom, that`s the same MO as when the perpetrator came into Pat`s Cafe! He had the long gun, sawed-off shotgun, in one hand, he had a handgun in the other hand and opened fire on the cop, shooting him in the neck with the sawed-off shotgun. So this guy, 23-year-old Solomon Montgomery, had two guns with him and police apprehended him?

MCDONALD: That is correct. That was verified at a press conference less than an hour ago.

GRACE: What hospital is he at?

MCDONALD: He`s at Einstein Hospital, which is right near the scene. It was within blocks of where police found him.

GRACE: Question. You said he was found in the Olney section of Philly. How far away from Pat`s Cafe is that?

MCDONALD: Well, I would say it`s about three miles away, but it`s a quick drive. It would not be that far to put him at the scene.

GRACE: And with us, everyone, Tom McDonald, reporter with Metro Networks Radio. You believe that someone within the family turned him in. Last night, we featured this story, asking for your help. There was a $125,000 reward for information leading to that man that gunned down a 46- year-old officer, Officer Skerski, Skerski leaving behind a 13-year-old boy, a 10-year-old girl and a widow.

What condition is Solomon in tonight, Tom?

MCDONALD: They`re saying he is in critical condition right now. And police aren`t giving a whole lot of information about that. I was at the hospital for most of the afternoon. They`ve been tight-lipped about it ever since they made this arrest.

GRACE: Do we know if Skerski`s widow has been informed?

MCDONALD: Skerski`s widow was informed immediately, according to Captain Benjamin Nash (ph) of the Philadelphia Police Department. And they have asked the police to keep an eye on her, while the media has been told to please stay away.

GRACE: Were any of the cops shot?

MCDONALD: No, none of the officers were shot. And Commissioner Johnson at the press conference said he was very thankful for this, especially since the suspect was arrested with two semi-automatic weapons in his pockets.

GRACE: And here`s the kicker, Tom McDonald -- Tom McDonald reporting tonight, breaking news out of Philadelphia, Metro Networks Radio. He was wanted out of California for what?

MCDONALD: They`re saying a robbery out of California. We don`t have specifics on that, either, but that was what they were using for the arrest.

GRACE: Take a listen to the press conference that just went down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We went to the location (INAUDIBLE) today, looking for an individual male because during the time this male`s name came in, we checked that this male was wanted in California for weapons violations. The detectives go up there. They observed this male come out of the house, come out from the apartment building.

As he came out of the apartment building, detectives approached him. The male ran this car almost at full speed into two police vehicles and did a lot of damage to them. He got out of his car, starts running. The detectives ran for approximately a block, block-and-a-half. This male was reaching into his pocket. The detectives fired a couple of shots, hit the male two times, found on the male -- matter of fact, as they approached this male, a struggle ensued. And they find on this male two semi- automatic weapons, one in the right-hand pocket, one in the left-hand back pocket.

The male was shot twice, taken to Albert Einstein Hospital, and right now, he`s in critical condition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Last night, we asked for your help in finding the perpetrator that gunned down a longtime veteran with the Philadelphia police force, Officer Skerski, shooting him in the neck after holding a bar full of patrons at gunpoint, trying to force them to hand over money and use their ATM cards. Skerski came in to save the day, only to lose his life in the line of duty.

We asked you to identify this guy last night. The only clue we had was the outfit he was wearing, Property of the State, which is a brand of hip-hop clothing, New York Yankee jacket, 6 feet to 6-2, light-skinned black male, and yellow-tinted eyes. That`s all we knew. The killer had yellow-tinted eyes.

With us, Tom McDonald, reporting out of Metro Networks Radio. It`s amazing to me. Here we`ve got this guy. He`s wearing what, Tom McDonald? But he`s got two guns, and he`s not afraid to take a shot at police. What was he wearing, do you know?

MCDONALD: We do not know. I mean, the picture that the family used, from what we hear, had that jacket that you have in your picture right now, that State Property Beanie Siegel (ph) clothing line jacket.

GRACE: And let me ask you this. When he opened fire on the cops, you say nobody was hurt. Was he in a neighborhood area? Were other people at risk when he opened fire?

MCDONALD: He was in residential neighborhood.

GRACE: Whew!

MCDONALD: He did not open fire on the police officers. As Commissioner Johnson said in that sound bite, a scuffle ensued, and they found the guns on him after that scuffle.

GRACE: Gotcha.

I want to go to Lisa Wayne, veteran defense attorney. Lisa, I don`t know about you, but when I see a cop, when a cop tells me to pull over, I pull over. Why this would guy take off running?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, he`s going to have to have a reasonable explanation that somehow he got freaked out, that he was in Pennsylvania, he knew that they wanted him for this warrant out of California that had nothing do with the cop shooting the day before. He`s freaked out from the warrant. I mean, he has to have an explanation. And hopefully, that`s it, and it`s not person that killed the officer the day before.

GRACE: Well, maybe he`s listening to Lisa Wayne from his hospital bed tonight, and he can tell police that when they ask.

Back to Tom McDonald, reporter with Metro Networks Radio. I understand he was in a vehicle. Was it an SUV?

MCDONALD: It was an SUV, a gray-colored SUV. And people on the scene were saying that it was distinctive and not just your average SUV.

GRACE: I want to go to criminal profiler Pat Brown. Everyone, tonight, breaking news. We are just learning about a story we brought you last night. We`re about to take you down to the Duke rape investigation, but I want to announce that we have in custody tonight, Philadelphia police have a person of interest in the guy that shot down Officer Skerski, a 16- year-old veteran on the police force. We don`t know if he`s the right guy yet or not.

To Pat Brown. Here`s a guy wanted in California. He`s shacked up in Philadelphia with relatives. He`s got two guns on him, just like the perpetrator. He has been seen in the same jacket. Here`s my question to you, as a profiler. In California, he`s wanted on guns charges, concealed weapons charges and robbery. Why do people repeat the same action over and over?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, because they`re young, they`re dangerous, they`re violent, and they really don`t care. And he`s also on the run. And this is just ridiculous. Why do we keep putting violent criminals out on bail, ones who have used a gun in the commission a crime? We just had an incident in Virginia, same thing. Guy committed a -- had a weapons violation, they let him go. Then he committed a carjacking with a weapon. They let him go on bail again. What did he do? He walked into a police station in Fairfax County, opened fire and killed a detective.

GRACE: Incredible. Incredible.

BROWN: What don`t we get about this? They`re dangerous. Keep them in jail.

GRACE: Psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, the MO of having two guns on him -- now, that`s something I don`t believe I ever saw in the years that I prosecuted, a double-fisted killer. Very next day, the person of interest, two guns on him.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, sometimes they really want not just to kill but to engage in overkill. And Pat Brown talked about the fact that he was young and on the run. But I want to add to that that it`s a well-documented fact that a lot of these psychopaths do not experience anxiety, like you do or like I do. They`re not afraid to getting into trouble. And so they engage in these very violent (INAUDIBLE) because it creates a type of excitement.

But because they don`t experience anxiety or arousal, they do not learn from their mistakes, and that`s why they repeat offend and they go in and out of the criminal system and why they have to be kept off the streets.

GRACE: Finally, back to Tom McDonald, reporter with Metro Networks Radio. Tom, thank you for being with us at this late hour. We`re just learning that a person of interest has been shot by police and taken into custody -- he`s at Einstein Hospital tonight -- in the case we brought you last night.

To Tom McDonald, what next? And if they don`t believe this guy isn`t the killer, why inform Skerski`s widow?

MCDONALD: Well, first of all, they`re going to try and tie everything in. They`ve got DNA from a cigarette butt that was outside Pat`s Cafe, so they`ll be working with that, and they`ll be working with ballistics to see if either of these guns tie into the robbery. Right now, they`re saying they will have more information for us probably in the morning, and that will give the criminalists a chance to work with this evidence.

GRACE: And last question. Do we have any idea about this guy`s eyes? I`ve never heard a clue like that in my life, a yellow-tinted-eyed cop killer.

MCDONALD: Well, that`s one of the things that was said in the earlier press conferences. We asked if it was jaundice or hepatitis or something like that, and they said, no, specifically, it was just a tint to the eyes. We did not get a chance to ask Commissioner Johnson about that when we spoke to him tonight.

GRACE: OK, joining us, Tom McDonald, the latest in the yellow-eyed cop killer. Is this is right guy? We will bring it to you as it breaks.

Speaking of breaking news, down to North Carolina and the Duke multiple rape investigation, in court today. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you prepared to hear a bond reduction motion, Your Honor?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a box of material from, you know, senators, congressmen, friends, and you know, they say that he`s not a flight risk. And we think that $400,000 is -- is...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four hundred thousand dollars is within the guidelines for the nature of this charge, and this court set that bond. It is right, frankly, in the guidelines. That`s what the bond would generally be initially. I`m not going to hear your bond -- since he`s out on bond.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to hear your bond request today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: When we get back, we will be taking your calls, along with Beth Karas from Court TV and Kevin miller with WPTF radio, all there in the courtroom today. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: One of three of Duke University`s lacrosse team in court today, answering charges to multiple rape counts. Joining us right now, in the courtroom all day today, Court TV`s Beth Karas. Beth, what happened?

BETH KARAS, COURT TV: Well, not too much, Nancy. The defense wanted to argue a number of motions. The judge made a few decisions, but he put matters over to the week of June 19th. They asked for a bail reduction. The judge`s not going to hear it now. It was a friend who put up the money, and they say that, you know, the friend`s out the income he could make from $400,000.

They want the police to retain their notes before writing reports. The judge said, OK, I`m ordering them to retain their notes. They got over a thousand pages of discovery today, two VHS tapes and a CD-ROM of photos. Everyone acknowledged that they received that.

They also move to trial quickly, and the judge said, I am not moving this case in front of other cases. These guys are out, and it`s going to move at a regular case.

GRACE: Well, Beth Karas, it`s my understanding that there was a lot of grandstanding in court about, We want a fast trial, we want to go to court, we want to prove our innocence. Have they filed a speedy demand?

KARAS: No. I looked at the entire file as of the middle of the day today for Reade Seligmann, and there was no request for a speedy trial. It was an oral request today.

GRACE: Well, hold! Well, did he specifically say, I demand a speedy trial?

KARAS: Well, when the judge was putting down the next date for the week of June 19th, he wanted it to be two weeks earlier because he wants it to move quickly. Mr. Seligmann wants to go back school in the fall and perhaps doesn`t want this trial hanging over his head when he enters his junior year.

GRACE: Beth...

KARAS: The judge said...

GRACE: ... yes, no?

KARAS: ... I`m not moving it any faster.

GRACE: Did the defense attorney...

KARAS: No, I didn`t see it.

GRACE: OK, you know what that means? You know what that means, Lisa Wayne? All this grandstanding Beth is telling us about in court -- I demand a trial, I want to be exonerated -- all it takes it is one piece of paper, demand for speedy trial. You file it with the clerk`s office, and you go straight to trial. So why all the talk and no do?

WAYNE: Well, you know, Nancy, in a lot of jurisdictions, a "not guilty" plea is the same as filing the papers. So the paper is really irrelevant. Once you enter a "not guilty" plea, every person has a right to a speedy trial. That`s what they did today, and the judge is noting that.

GRACE: I don`t think that is the law in this jurisdiction.

To Allison Gilman, defense attorney. It`s my understanding, if you want a speedy trial, which means a trial within that grand jury`s session or two more, you must put it in writing or put it orally on the record, I want a speedy trial, I demand a speedy trial.

ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, you`re absolutely right, Nancy. If they wanted that speedy trial, they should have filed a demand for speedy trial. I think they want the trial, they just to still want to participate in discovery. They don`t want to cut anything off, but they`re, like, I`m ready, I want to go, I want to prove my innocence. And I love that! They`re in the upswing...

GRACE: Well, you know what? You know what I...

GILMAN: ... of the case. So they`re ready to go.

GRACE: ... think? I think they want to talk about wanting a speedy trial.

Let`s go to Carla in Indiana. Hi, Carla.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just calling to find out, do you know what rape shield law is in that jurisdiction?

GRACE: I believe that I do, but let`s go to the expert. Beth Karas joining us from Court TV. Beth, it`s my understanding that, for instance, the rape that was alleged when she was just 14 years old, that she told her husband about three years later, and he then urged her to go forward, at least tell police about it -- it`s my understanding that that will not come into evidence. Explain to me the rape shield law.

KARAS: Well, that is my understanding, as well, that that will not come into evidence, although they might make an argument that it`s a false accusation, that it didn`t really happen. But it wasn`t ever fully investigated, and she had reasons for not wanting to go forward with it. She feared retaliation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My client`s OK. He`s in some ways glad to have Monday behind him and move on to the fight. So he`s a strong young man. You all saw him on Monday. He`s strong. He`s innocent. And so he`s ready to fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. One of three indictees in the Duke alleged multiple rape scandal in court today.

Down to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, what were your observations in court?

KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Well, I`ll say that, Nancy, Judge Ronald Stevens (ph), former Durham district attorney, laid down the judicial smackdown. The atmosphere was so tense in court that he ordered everybody...

GRACE: Kevin, I`ve never heard you talk like that!

(LAUGHTER)

MILLER: It was pretty...

GRACE: Judicial smackdown! Go ahead.

MILLER: It was -- it was very tense between Mike Nifong and Kirk Osborne (ph). It was also very tense outside. Reade Seligmann, when he came in, was called a rapist by the New Black Panther Party. Judge Stevens said that if anybody spoke out that wasn`t associated with this case -- this is not a public forum -- he`ll throw them in jail. He`ll throw them in contempt, and he doesn`t have a problem about it. He was very concerned about order in his court today.

And again, it was Osborne and Nifong going at it. They couldn`t agree on how to break up the evidence. The judge said, Look, give me your proposals. If y`all can`t come to an agreement, then all of a sudden, I`m going to decide.

GRACE: OK, question. Why are the New Black Panthers there? Even the old Black Panthers, who basically advocated chaos -- they`ve distanced themselves from the New Black Panthers. I don`t believe the alleged victim has asked them to come.

MILLER: Right.

GRACE: What are they doing there?

MILLER: Nancy, it`s very simple. Malik Shabazz is opportunist. We`ve had him on WPTF...

GRACE: Who is Malik Shabazz?

MILLER: He`s the leader of the New Black Panther Party. He -- we`ve had him on the radio. He`s called me...

GRACE: Don`t he have a job he has to go to?

MILLER: He`s an attorney, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh, Lord!

MILLER: Yes, one of your kind. So anyway...

GRACE: Oh, thank you!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Thank you. Go ahead.

MILLER: Back to Shabazz. Shabazz -- we had him on WPTF. He basically said he doesn`t love America. He called me, because I`m white, a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, the KKK.

GRACE: Well, I knew that. OK, listen -- listen, question.

MILLER: Sure.

GRACE: Is that who the judge was talking about the judge was threatening to put people in jail if they disrupted these proceedings?

MILLER: Right, and there was a gentleman in the back who...

GRACE: That`s not helping anything.

MILLER: Well, he was dressed in black and yellow, started yelling, using the F-word and all that, as well, too. He had to be thrown out.

GRACE: Question. Let`s go to Chowan in Florida. Hi, Chowan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m great. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, when will we get to hear from or see the victim? Does she have to be present...

GRACE: Oh, good question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... at these proceedings or...

GRACE: Kevin Miller, was the alleged victim present at proceedings?

MILLER: Not that I`m aware of. And she wasn`t at the grand jury, either, according to my sources, Nancy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a court of law, and this is my court. This is an administrative court of law. Generally, we do administrative matters and procedural matters here, and that`s what we`re going to be doing today.

So if anybody thought that this was going to be a public forum in which somebody could stand and speak, that is not going to be allowed. Anybody who decides to do that will be held in contempt of this court, and I will put you in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, Kevin Miller was right. There was a judicial smackdown in the Duke rape investigation today in court. Apparently, several groups showing up protesting on one side or the other. The point is: Let`s get to trial. One of the three indictees in court today.

Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio. Kevin, what were the issues on the table in court today? Discovery?

MILLER: Right. This is the first chance that the defense had a chance, Nancy, to see it, 1,278 pages of discovery, as Beth said, two VHS tapes and a CD-ROM.

Now, Kirk Osborn and Mike Nifong kind of went back and forth over the victim accuser`s cell phone. Kirk Osborn said: Look, we gave it to the prosecution. We`d like an expert to take a look at it. We`re very concerned about it data.

Mike Nifong said: Look, there`s nothing to worry about. We have competent people there.

They went back and forth until the judge, Ronald Stephens, said: Look, you two -- I want both of you, if you can`t come it an agreement on how we`re going to download the information from the cell phone, then you could submit briefs. I`ll decide. And once we get the data, I want to look at it first to determine whether or not it`s relevant.

GRACE: OK, hold on just for a moment.

To Harold Copus, former FBI agent, now private investigator, Harold, what can they get off the cell phone they can`t get off the cell phone records?

HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: I think there are really two things, Nancy, when you think about it. The first thing is the fact of text messaging.

GRACE: Ah.

COPUS: You don`t want that deleted. And the other thing you want to look at is you want to look at maybe voice mail. I know, when my phone, for instance, it disappears after 14 days.

GRACE: Oh, really? You mean, unless you save them, they disappear? Or even if you save them, they disappear?

COPUS: They`re going to disappear, even if you save them.

GRACE: You need a new cell phone service provider, Harold. I`ll fill you in after the show.

Back to Kevin Miller. So they fought about the girl`s cell phone. They fought about discovery, yes?

MILLER: Yes, it was -- they fought about the cell phones and they fought about discovery. The defense wanted more access. The judge would not let them do that.

GRACE: OK, to Lisa Wayne, we`re not even at trial time. The defense doesn`t get discovery traditionally until x number of days before trial. This is way early in the game to be complaining you don`t have discovery.

WAYNE: Well, I think the problem is, Nancy, is that this case has been so emotionally charged in the media. And the defense`s position is: You have dirtied up the water by bringing this accusation. You should have your case together. Your ducks should be lined up. And we want the evidence now. So if you make the accusation, back it up with the documentation. That`s fair. That`s totally fair.

GRACE: Yes, well, you know what? That`s really not what the law says at all.

WAYNE: That is what the law says.

GRACE: You, Lisa, may think it`s fair, but the law says x number of days before trial is when the state hands over.

WAYNE: Why hide the ball? Why hide the ball, Nancy? If you bring the charge, have the evidence, give it to the defense.

GRACE: Well, guess what, Lisa? They handed over 1,200 pages of the defense.

WAYNE: Which is what they should have done.

GRACE: So nobody`s hiding the ball.

WAYNE: That`s their obligation.

GRACE: Nobody`s hiding the ball, so quit asking that. So the state did hand it over. The defense is just complaining in open court. Response?

WAYNE: The defense has complained, Nancy. Again, the prosecution has a moral obligation and an ethical obligation to give the case to the defense.

GRACE: Yes, well, they did.

WAYNE: What do they have to hide?

GRACE: Well, they did.

WAYNE: If you have a case -- well, you know what? The position of the defense is: Give it to me the first day, Nancy. So why fight over it? A clean prosecutor says, "Here it is."

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I don`t know; that`s what I`m asking you.

WAYNE: "Here it is."

GRACE: That`s what I`m asking you. They handed it over. So why all of the, "Wah, wah"?

WAYNE: Well, you know, again, Nancy, the bottom line is this. Why should we even have to ask for it? The prosecution should give it to us. If they have a case, why not give it to us?

GRACE: So now you`re going from, "I want it before trial," to, "I want it today," to, "Oh, you gave it to me, but why did I even have to ask?"

WAYNE: Nancy, it`s not a game.

GRACE: OK, I will pass that onto the legislature that they should redraft all those discovery laws.

Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio, Kevin, fought about discovery, discovery was handed over. Fought about the cell phone. Anything else in court today?

MILLER: Well, Nancy, as Beth said, they also wanted the bond reduced. Judge Stevens said, no, that`s not going to happen. Apparently, a family friend has put up the money. He`d like some of it back.

And again, they fought -- you had Kirk Osborn say: Look, this kid would like to go back to school.

One thing that we haven`t mentioned is he is suspended from Duke based on whether or not he`s innocent or guilty, so he can`t go back to campus until this is decided.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines. Rudy in Massachusetts. Hi, Rudy.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

CALLER: My question is: When will we expect to hear from the district attorney regarding this case again?

GRACE: You mean, when will they be back in court or when will it go to trial?

CALLER: Either one. When will they go to trial? I don`t think it`s going to be that, you know, expedient because of what I watched today on Court TV.

GRACE: I agree. I don`t think it`s going to be anytime soon.

What`s your best guess, Kevin Miller?

MILLER: June 19th, David Evans is supposed to be back in court next week on a misdemeanor noise violation. Mike Nifong has been quoted that he expects sometime in the early January-February of next year, at the earlier that this will go to court. He wants to try all three of them together, so that again logistically might be a little difficult.

GRACE: Well, you know, it`s Trial 101.

Let`s go to Allison Gilman. The defense should be asking for a severance, trial severance, so each one is tried individually. Think it will happen? I don`t.

GILMAN: I don`t know, Nancy. We haven`t really heard about any statements that were given. I like what they`re doing. They`re kind of ambushing. It`s a big group effort; they`re a team; they`re going at it with the united front, so why not try it together? Use the same defense. Don`t point fingers. Let`s just go at them all together, three against one. I`m liking it. I mean, to me, like I said, they`re on the upswing. These are beautiful, handsome, young men.

GRACE: Oh, Allison.

GILMAN: They`re poster boys. I want to take them home, Nancy. No one`s convicting these boys, I`m telling you.

GRACE: You want to take them home?

GILMAN: Yes. I want to take them home and marry them to my daughters, if I had them.

GRACE: OK.

GILMAN: They`re adorable young men.

GRACE: All right, Allison Gilman wants to take them home.

Lisa Wayne, I think you and I are finally going to agree on something. I think, if I were the defense in this case, I would demand -- even though I probably wouldn`t get it -- a severance, because of the melted cheese theory, Lisa. All the evidence of each one melts onto the other. If one of these three is innocent, the evidence of the other two melt onto him.

You`ve got the one kid who alleged beat somebody up because they were gay or they thought they were gay in some D.C. bar. What if that comes out on cross-exam? That evidence will melt onto the other two codefendants. Would you ask for a severance?

WAYNE: You know, Nancy, there`s always that theory that birds a feather flock together. So you`re right: If a jury thinks that one is guilty, then they may think they`re all guilty. The problem is: Are there true antagonistic defense? And we just don`t know at this point.

GRACE: Let`s go to Joanne in Florida. Hi, Joanne.

CALLER: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

CALLER: I have a good question.

GRACE: OK.

CALLER: David Evans` father is a high-powered attorney in Washington, D.C. Is his son going to get privileged, you know, lights? And let`s just think about this. He`s got all of the money in the world, and I know he`s the head of the lacrosse team. And then they show his father in the background all the time from Washington. Is this going to have any sort of an impact?

GRACE: Let`s go to Duke student and executive with Duke Conservative Union, Stephen Miller. Stephen, do you think either Evans or any of the other two indictees are getting preferential treatment?

STEPHEN MILLER, DUKE CONSERVATIVE UNION: I don`t think they are getting preferential treatment at all. If you look at the case, I think it`s pretty clear that, from the beginning, the political implications here have driven this forward. From the beginning, there were political...

GRACE: Oh, you mean, as opposed to a woman claiming that she was a victim of multiple rape? It`s all about politics, right?

STEPHEN MILLER: I can`t escape the notion that, if you look at what evidence we do know exists, that there doesn`t seem to be a tremendous amount here for a trial, at least a good faith trial, to try to exceed the burden of proof that the prosecutor`s going to have to meet.

And all of the protests that were occurring, the pending re-election, the tremendous pressure that came down immediately in the wake of these allegations, to me, rushed this process along faster than ordinarily it would have gone.

GRACE: I want to go to Dr. E. Rackley Ivey, a forensic scientist. Dr. Ivey, thank you for being with us. We know that the nurse that examined the alleged victim stated that there was vaginal and anal trauma, recent vaginal and anal trauma. Do you believe that is another explanation for that?

DR. E. RACKLEY IVEY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes, there are other possibilities. One could be rough sex that she may have had. It is my understanding that genetic material was found from another individual, not of these being accused.

GRACE: But hold on. Dr. Ivey, isn`t it true that even sex with, say, a husband or a boyfriend that took place, say, three to seven days earlier, the spermatozoa breaks down, and you can look at it and tell the age of the sperm. The head and the tail fall off the spermatozoa, so it can be determined if that recent trauma is connected to old spermatozoa, yes, no?

IVEY: Well, you can have the DNA material from previous sexual encounters hanging around for about three days. How rough the sex was, if that was the case, or there`s other issues involved, I don`t know how quickly she would heal.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My two children were affected, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): One mother speaks over an angry crowd Wednesday. She claims Dean David Cech has been sexually inappropriate with her children, too. We`re not showing faces to protect the children. The mother says those children were abused with power and with ease.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He gets his due process, but I would like to say that, if the gentleman is found to be guilty, I feel that he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Is it true? Did an elementary school administrator take photos, pornographic photos of a little boy?

Out to Courtney Greve for the latest. Hi, Courtney.

COURTNEY GREVE, STAFF WRITER, "DAILY SOUTHTOWN": How are you doing tonight, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good. I want to believe this isn`t true, but I`ve got a bucket of tar and some feathers here on the set.

GREVE: Well, it`s interesting. From everything that the police and the family have said, it`s looking pretty, pretty bad at this point.

GRACE: With us is Courtney Greve. She`s a staff writer with the "Daily Southtown." Thank you for the tar. Someone is edging tar, sticky tar, closer and closer to me here on the set. And they`ve given me some feathers. I`m getting ready, Courtney. I`m ready.

But I want to find out, before I start the tar and the feathering, I`ve heard about something called a presumption of innocence. So give me the facts. Hold on.

GREVE: No problem. What happened is, on Monday, a teacher at Strassberg School in Sauk Village, which is a south suburb of Chicago. This teacher found a digital camera that belonged to David Cech. The teacher looked through the camera and found some digital images that showed a boy from the chest to the knees naked.

The teacher turned the camera over to police, and then the police arrested David Cech the next morning at the school so that he could no longer enter the school.

GRACE: Courtney, what was his position at the school?

GREVE: He was recently promoted to dean of students, so he was the disciplinarian at the school, but they had...

GRACE: What is that, like a principal?

GREVE: No, he`s the person that, if you get in trouble, you go to go see him.

GRACE: Oh, good lord, he`s not in charge of the paddlings, is he?

GREVE: Well, I don`t know about that, but he was a teacher for five years before that.

GRACE: With us, Courtney Greve, staff writer with the "Daily Southtown." We are talking about a young man, David Cech, working as dean, kind of like an assistant-assistant principal, at an elementary school. What were the grades of the kids that go there?

GREVE: It`s a first through sixth grade. They have about 200 kids, I believe. And the boy who is in question, the victim, was a fifth grader, 10 years old.

GRACE: You know, Lisa Wayne, don`t you just hate it when your co- worker takes it upon herself to look through your digicam?

WAYNE: You know, those are the questions that you have, Nancy. First of all is, who had access to that camera? Is he the only one with access?

GRACE: Oh, please.

WAYNE: Can they show some -- no, you have to show those things, because if someone else took the pictures, then clearly he didn`t do anything wrong.

GRACE: On his camera, in his office?

WAYNE: Of course. People have access to those things all of the time. That`s not unusual. So you`re going to have to prove those things before you get to the ultimate accusation in this case, and that`s why you have the D.A. That`s why you have investigators.

GRACE: Lisa, didn`t you just win some award for being a great defense attorney?

WAYNE: That`s what they tell me, Nancy, yes.

GRACE: Yes, OK, now I see why you win so many cases. Let`s just clear this up with Courtney Greve with "Daily Southtown." Did the child give a statement?

GREVE: The child did give a statement, both to police, to mental health officials, and to many members of the media. The boy said that he was forced against his will into this man`s office. And when Cech, who is 27 years old, when Cech asked him to pull down his pants, he refused.

The little boy said that he tried to reach for the door. He tried to get away, and he was stopped. And then the little boy said that Cech pulled down his pants and took pictures of him. He said this happened about 15 times in the last couple of months.

GRACE: OK, hold on.

All right, Allison Gilman, we`ve ruled out whose camera it is, according to the boy`s statement. I`m stirring the tar. Stop me; what`s your defense?

GILMAN: Nancy, put away the tar and the feathers. This is a 10-year- old boy who`s telling us that, for the last couple of months, he`s being forced to do those things. He hasn`t told anyone; he hasn`t said anything; he hasn`t told the teacher; and now suddenly he`s being forced to do these things?

GRACE: OK, you have pushed me over the edge.

Because, Bethany Marshall, isn`t it true that most -- most of the time, a vast majority of time -- child molestation victims do not report what happened? They`re afraid.

MARSHALL: They do not report -- first of all, I think Allison needs to book an appointment in my office and we`ll talk about pedophilia, because, no, children don`t tell, because when they`re so young, they confuse who`s to blame when an adult abuses them. They blame themselves. They become ashamed. They don`t turn to adults.

But this guy, if the allegations are true, he seems like a pedophile in every respect. He`s attracted to prepubescent children. He`s voyeuristic, perhaps exhibitionistic. And these guys go from one perversion to another, children, sadism, exhibitionism, voyeurism. And so it`s pretty frightening to think that, you know, here`s a teacher who has access to children.

GRACE: When I think about being that age, age ten, I would do anything a teacher told me to do.

Let`s go to the lines.

MARSHALL: Of course.

GRACE: Denise in Pennsylvania, hi, Denise.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. How extensive are the background checks that they do for teachers?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know, that`s a great question that I had earlier. You know, I want to throw that to -- gosh, I guess I would have to throw this one to Harold Copus, FBI agent. That`s one of my original questions.

Thank you, Janice.

Why aren`t background checks done on teachers? And why aren`t principals, administrators, and what about psychological exams? Would that help at all, Harold?

COPUS: Oh, it certainly would help. And, candidly, it`s just not done. And I can`t tell you why. It needs to be done. By the way, if you go, as you know -- you go to some of these church schools now, they will do those background checks, but not in our public schools.

GRACE: To Dr. Rackley Ivey, our scientist, the alleged victim underwent a physical examination. Obviously, they are looking for signs of actual physical abuse.

IVEY: Yes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My guess is, you could say I`m probably happy that, you know, he got charged with something. I guess it`s a vindication for my son, what he`s been going through, you know, and he`s still I think got mixed emotions about a lot of things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pulled down my pants. And I tried to stop him, but I couldn`t. I was scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We, of course, are not showing this child`s face or his father`s face. I`m actually really surprised he had the guts to speak to a microphone.

We`re talking about a story, a very disturbing story, of an administrator in an elementary school allegedly pulling down the pants of a little boy and taking photos.

Back out to Courtney Greve with the "Daily Southtown," what comes next?

GREVE: Well, he was in -- David Cech was in court today. He was charged with one count of manufacturing child pornography. He could get four to 15 years for that. He`s already out; his father posted bail; it was $10,000.

GRACE: Did he live at home with his parents?

GREVE: He lived at home with his parents and a brother in Orland Park, another south suburb of Chicago.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, step one, I hope, cops have seized all of the computers at work and home.

BROWN: Yes, I hope so. But, you know, what`s really disturbing is he should have been charged with kidnapping and sexual assault, because he prevented that boy from leaving the room. That`s kidnapping. And he touched that boy by removing his pants and touching his body. That`s a sexual assault.

Why is he getting this crummy little charge? I don`t know, but they should have nailed him on a lot more.

GRACE: Interesting, Courtney, these are just the charges from the police, correct?

GREVE: Correct.

GRACE: So there could still be a grand jury indictment once the district attorney`s office looks at the police report, then the formal charges go down.

To Dr. Ivey, Doctor, they performed a full physical on the little boy, obviously looking for a possible physical assault.

IVEY: Yes. As I understand, he`s not alleging that he was sexually assaulted, and his abuse were probably more psychological at this point. They may find -- you know, he said he was pushed up against the wall. There may be some bruises and whatnot, but probably not likely to find, you know, evidence of sexual assault.

GRACE: Right. Of course, any sexual touching to a child is child molestation.

IVEY: Yes.

GRACE: Thank you to all of my guests.

But very quickly, let`s stop to remember Staff Sergeant Darrell Clay, just 34, from Fayetteville, North Carolina, killed, Iraq. Clay comes from a military family and leaves behind two sons, a daughter and a widow. Darrell Clay, an American hero.

Thank you to my guests. And thank you to you for being with us. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for another Thursday night. Until tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, good night, friend.

END