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American Morning

Police Shooting; No Apologies; Seven-Year-Old Swims San Francisco Bay

Aired May 23, 2006 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In New Orleans today, they will try once again to prepare for the worst. This in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, with another hurricane season looming. And in the midst of all of that, the shocking conclusions of a CNN investigation. It appears in the wake of Katrina, police there shot and killed a retarded person just a few blocks from his home.
CNN's Drew Griffin with our exclusive investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Sunday, last September the 4th, Lance Madison said he and his younger, Ronald, were walking up the half-mile-long Danziger Bridge over the Industrial Canal, leaving their flooded home, looking for a way to evacuate.

Madison said teenagers ran up behind, shooting at them.

LANCE MADISON, BROTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: We might have been about right here when the kids started shooting at us.

GRIFFIN: A New Orleans police team rushed to the scene in a rental truck after a report about gunshots. They opened fired on the people they saw on the bridge.

WARREN J. RILEY, NEW ORLEANS POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: Several of the people were shot, and I believe two were killed, by our officers in a running gun battle. Now, most police shoot-outs last somewhere between six and 12 seconds, and it's over with. This was a running gun battle that went on several minutes.

GRIFFIN: The first casualty, a teenager killed at the base of the bridge, another critically wounded. Three other people with them were also shot.

Lance and Ronald Madison kept running away from the gunfight, now near the top of the bridge. Ronald was 40, mentally retarded, lived at home with his mother, never charged with a crime. Lance says he saw a policeman behind them point a rifle at Ronald.

MADISON: I said he was shot about right over here, about right here.

And we kept running up the bridge here, trying to go zigzag, so they wouldn't hit us. GRIFFIN: Lance, a former college football player, said he carried his wounded brother across the half-mile-long bridge and left him here alive, outside the rundown Friendly Inn, while Lance ran to get help, splashing through knee-deep water inside the motel courtyard.

Police say an officer encountered Ronald Madison and shot him at the motel entrance.

(on camera): You heard lots of shots?

MADISON: Yes, I did.

(CROSSTALK)

GRIFFIN: More than one gun?

MADISON: Yes. Two different guns, a -- it's like a handgun or a rifle or a sawed-off shotgun. It was real loud.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): A state police SWAT team tracked down Lance and took him into custody. This news photo shows Lance handcuffed in front of the motel. A few feet away lay his brother's body.

MADISON: My brother was laying right here on the ground.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Face down?

MADISON: Face down.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): In a court hearing last fall, a police sergeant testified, an officer shot Ronald Madison to death at that motel when he turned toward them and reached into his waistband.

But the autopsy results obtained by CNN directly contradict that testimony. Last week, in a lawsuit filed by CNN, the New Orleans coroner, Dr. Frank Minyard, verified, this is the handwritten autopsy report prepared by his pathologist on Ronald Madison's death.

It shows five gunshot wounds in the upper back. Three exited through his chest. None of the shots entered his body from the front. Then there's this, a sketch drawn by New York state police pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, who examined the body at the request of the family's lawyer.

You can see two wounds in the right shoulder and the five in the back. Baden told CNN -- quote -- "Clearly, he was shot from behind."

We told New Orleans police chief Warren Riley about the autopsy findings.

(on camera): Now we understand that Ronald Madison was shot in the back five times.

RILEY: Those are things I can't comment on, no one can comment on, until the investigation is concluded.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Riley rejected a CNN request to interview the police officers involved.

(on camera): Are you concerned about your officers' actions at that bridge at this point?

RILEY: Well, I have to wait on the conclusion of the investigation. Certainly, we do not condone or officers overreacting, even in the most chaotic time. And we don't know that they overreacted. From the radio transmissions, it sounds like their lives were in danger.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Yet, no gun was found on Ronald Madison's body. Lance Madison was unarmed when placed under arrest. He since has been released, though the investigation continues.

At last fall's hearing, the sergeant said one officer did see Lance throw a gun into the Industrial Canal. Lance denies he had any weapon.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Did you have a gun?

MADISON: No. I had no gun at all.

GRIFFIN: Did your brother have a gun?

MADISON: No, he didn't.

GRIFFIN: Did you guys pretend to have guns?

MADISON: No, we did not.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): In a hearing on CNN's lawsuit last week, an assistant prosecutor testified the Danziger Bridge shootings have been assigned to a grand jury, although testimony has not yet begun.

The CNN lawyer asked, "What you are investigating in that case is whether any of the police officers may be indicted for homicide; is that correct?"

Prosecutor Dustin Davis answered: "That's partially correct. We are also looking at Mr. Madison's involvement in the incident."

At the end of our interview, Chief Riley conceded, the two brothers may have been uninvolved with the group on the bridge.

RILEY: I don't know if those young men were innocent or not. I really don't know if they were with that group or not. I really don't know.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: One thing holding up that grand jury, the fact that the New Orleans police department has yet to finish its final report on that incident -- Soledad.

(NEWSBREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Andy Serwer?

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Hey, you guys. Talk about a battle between giants, get this, Wal-Mart versus Hercules. Who would you bet on?

M. O'BRIEN: I don't know. That's a good question. I'm going for Wal-Mart.

All right. Also ahead, 47 minutes, that's all it took for 7- year-old Braxton Bilbrey to finish his chilly swim from Alcatraz to the city of San Francisco yesterday. We'll ask him what kept him going, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Dixie Chicks are back, but after their strong criticism of the war in Iraq and the president, will the country music world be ready to forgive them?

Sibila Vargas has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Those may be fighting words, but any political message in the new Dixie Chicks's album is between the lines.

CHRIS WILLMAN, AUTHOR, "REDNECKS & BLUENECKS": It's not a political album, but it is political by inference, in that they're directly and indirectly addressing their own situation, and through being defensive and defiant about it. And through that I think you can read into the fact that they still feel the same way or worse about Bush and the war and all the things that got them into the trouble they are talking about on the album.

VARGAS: "Taking the Long Way" is the Texas trio's first CD since 2003, since before the U.S. invasion of Iraq when lead singer Natalie Maines told London concert goers she was, "embarrassed to be from the same state as George Bush."

NATALIE MAINES, LEAD SINGER, DIXIE CHICKS: My apology was for the words that I used but not for the motivation the words and for my beliefs.

VARGAS: Despite that semi-apology, the fallout in the conservative country community was immediate. Some called the Chicks unpatriotic, treasonous even. People picketed their shows, and radio stations refused to play their music.

But with the president's approval rating at an all-time low, some are rethinking Nashville's harsh treatment of the Dixie Chicks.

VINCE GILL, RECORDING ARTIST: I have a big problem with what they did to the Dixie Chicks. You know, I don't think that their political stance should in any way have their career taken away from them. You know, that's just wrong.

VARGAS: Sony Music isn't taking any chances with the new release. Wal-Mart, Amazon.com and iTunes are all selling the disc at a discount. Throw in high profile appearances, and the Chicks could end up with a No. 1 album, despite a whole new batch of strong opinions from Maines in a "Time Magazine" cover story.

WILLMAN: She said, I don't respect Bush. It's part of her so- called apology was that you have to respect the office, no matter who's in it. Now she's say that doesn't matter, I don't respect him at all.

VARGAS: Dixie Chicks's opinions might have lost them a lot of their old fans, but just may gain them a lot of new ones.

Sibila Vargas, CNN, Hollywood.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: Sibila's report first aired on "PAULA ZAHN NOW." You can catch more from Paula weeknights 8:00 Eastern.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A short break. We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: You know, there wasn't a con in Alcatraz...

S. O'BRIEN: That's true.

M. O'BRIEN: ... who didn't dream of this.

S. O'BRIEN: Of doing what this young man did.

M. O'BRIEN: Yeah, seven years old. Plucky fella. Forty-seven minutes is all it took him.

S. O'BRIEN: His name is Braxton Bilbrey. He made the swim from Alcatraz Island to San Francisco. It's a distance of about 1.4 miles.

M. O'BRIEN: I think precisely 1.4 miles, as Braxton will attest. He was inspired by 9-year-old Johnny Wilson, who pulled off the same stunt last October. He was raising money for Katrina victims. We spoke with him in October. Let's listen for just a second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: At any point did you think I'm not going to make it? Or were you determined the whole way?

JOHNNY WILSON, SWAM SAN FRANCISCO BAY: I was -- I just kept on telling myself to keep on going and I was almost there. But at the beginning, I was pretty scared and nervous.

M. O'BRIEN: I bet you were. It's sort of like "Finding Nemo." What is it, you know, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming, right? Is that what you're thinking?

WILSON: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: All right so joining us now from San Francisco, 7- year-old Braxton Bilbrey, who just kept swimming, swimming, yesterday. And his swim coach Joe Zemaitis.

JOE ZEMAITIS, BRAXTON'S SWIM COACH: Good morning.

M. O'BRIEN: Good morning to you both.

S. O'BRIEN: Hey, guys. Good morning.

M. O'BRIEN: Swim coach is on the right, Braxton on the left.

S. O'BRIEN: The bigger guy would be the swim coach. Although he was in the water yesterday, as well. Braxton, let's begin with you. How are you feeling this morning?

BRAXTON BILBREY, SWAM SAN FRANCISCO BAY: Good.

S. O'BRIEN: You're feeling pretty good?

BILBREY: Very good.

S. O'BRIEN: You warmed up a little bit, I would imagine.

BILBREY: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: What was it like when you finally made it in and you saw the people standing on the shore, including your mom and your dad? I saw your dad there with a big camera. What was that last moment like, Braxton?

BILBREY: Well, it was pretty cool.

M. O'BRIEN: In more ways than one. Fifty-six degree water temperature. I found it very interesting to see all the reporters there waiting for you, Braxton. And you're coming out of the, water and I think your lips were a little bit blue. And they're asking you all these questions, you could barely move your mouth. What was that like?

BILBREY: Well, it was kind of weird. But just...

S. O'BRIEN: Hey, Braxton, let me ask you a question. How long did it take you to warm up? Because I heard -- and, in fact, I saw some videotape where you got out of the water, live shots going on with the reporters behind you. They took you to get a little McDonald's, I think, for lunch. How long do you think before you finally warmed up after your big swim?

BILBREY: Probably right when we got to McDonald's.

S. O'BRIEN: Amazing how that fast food warms.

M. O'BRIEN: Those warm fries. How are you feeling this morning, though? Do you feel good? A great sense of accomplishment? Are you -- you know, are you kind of surprised you pulled it off?

BILBREY: Yes. I feel pretty good. I think it was pretty cool to do that and set the world record.

S. O'BRIEN: A lot of people would agree with you. We think it's pretty cool. Let's ask a question of Joe the swim coach. I mean, you told the story about how Braxton mentioned he was sort of inspired by the 9-year-old we saw Miles interviewing just a moment ago. Was your reaction that to try this at age seven was just crazy? I mean, that's -- he's a little kid, really.

ZEMAITIS: Well, when he first came to me and asked me if I thought he could break the record, I said, sure. I thought he meant doing it sometime before he turns nine. I didn't know he meant four months from January. And yet, here we are. The kid just continues to surprise us all.

S. O'BRIEN: Tell me about his training. What did he have to do? Because I know that you were really quite serious and quite rigorous about training for this event.

ZEMAITIS: Yes. That's the first thing I wanted to make sure, that this was really his idea, that this is really what he wanted to do. Because he was swimming in the pool with Neptune, my year-round club swim team at the village, and we practiced four days a week, two hours a day for him.

And in addition that, we were going up to lakes around Phoenix on the weekends. And I can tell you that when we were in Lake Pleasant with snow on the mountains in Phoenix back in February, and he was in the water swimming for an hour, 15 minutes, that's when I thought, you know what? This kid's serious.

M. O'BRIEN: That was my big question, because I was thinking, you know, here you are, training in well-heated pools or normal temperature pools in Arizona. So you did try some cold water swimming in advance, then, huh?

ZEMAITIS: That's right. We swam in a couple of lakes in Phoenix. Bartlett Lake, Lake Pleasant. We even made a test swim up here at Aquatic Park back in the beginning of April. And each time, we just kind of set this test for him. Could he prove to us and to himself that he was ready to take this on? Because this isn't something to take lightly. You know? It's not a necessarily a safe thing for a young kid to jump in and do this swim. But we were just really safe, working with the Coast Guard, just really to make sure that we were safe.

I mean, this whole thing has been about water safety and being safe around water. We are trying to raise money for drowning prevention, trying to raise awareness for drowning prevention. We see it all too often in Phoenix, that people are drowning in pools.

So we think it's really important to learn how to swim. I mean, that's the whole reason Braxton started swimming when he was three at the Hubbard Family Swim School. His parents wanted him safe around water. They never expected anything like this. They just didn't want him to drown.

M. O'BRIEN: Who could have expected this? Now, Braxton, I understand you have another goal and it's even more ambitious. Tell us about it.

BILBREY: My other goal is when I'm eight, I want to swim around Alcatraz and then into the shore.

M. O'BRIEN: OK. And what about the English Channel? You're not doing that one?

S. O'BRIEN: When he's older.

BILBREY: Well, when I -- yes.

S. O'BRIEN: OK, thank you.

ZEMAITIS: He actually wants to do that when he's older.

S. O'BRIEN: OK, thank you. I'm stepping in as a mother here.

M. O'BRIEN: Wait until he's nine. Wait until he's nine to do that.

S. O'BRIEN: That's like 22 miles or something ridiculous like that. Braxton, congratulations to you. It's nice to see you pulling off what you set out to do. Joe, as well, I'm glad that you were there with a couple other folks in the water, making sure he was OK. Appreciate you guys talking with us this morning.

M. O'BRIEN: Great job, guys. Great job. Good to see you.

ZEMAITIS: Thank you.

M. O'BRIEN: Back with more in a moment.

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