Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Search for Missing 3-Year-Old Continues

Aired May 25, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: It`s not over yet. We are still on the search for a missing 3-year-old North Dakota girl. A family friend posing as her biological dad -- he wasn`t -- took her. He`s been found in his van at a national forest after committing suicide by carbon monoxide. But where is the girl?
And tonight: A romantic lakeside vacation turns deadly when a 37-year- old woman drowns. Tonight: Accident, or was she pushed?

And guilty, guilty, guilty for two Enron fat cats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all miss my wife terribly. This is about being reunited as best we can, me and my kids. And that`s all we can focus on right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. A 37-year-old wife and mother discovered dead at a resort lake. Was it a fall or a push?

And tonight, Enron CEOs pronounced guilty in the single largest corporate scandal in America, defrauding employees and shareholders to the tune of billions. That`s right, billions with a B, as in brother.

But first tonight: The search is desperate for a missing 3-year-old. We are live in North Dakota. And tonight, we are taking your calls, your questions, and most important, your tips.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our number one priority is Reachelle because she will make you feel as if you are the only one that matters to her. That`s how big her heart is. We just want her back. We miss her and love her very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you help us find this 3-year-old girl, Reachelle Smith? Let`s go straight out to Jim Olson. He is the news director with KXMC. Hi, Jim. What`s latest on the search?

JIM OLSON, KXMC-TV: Good evening, Nancy. Well, the search took a few different directions today, but so far, unfortunately, it`s been unfruitful. Early in the day, the task force met and decided on some things they wanted to try to do. One of them was to search the city`s landfill. Specifically, they were looking at an area about two thirds the size of a football field and about five feet deep...

GRACE: Whew!

OLSON: ... if you can visualize that. It`s where garbage was dumped on Friday of last week. And that was because of some investigation that they had done, which led them to believe that the suspect in the case had perhaps been at a dumpster at a time that would have placed that garbage into the landfill with the Friday dumping. So they`re still doing that as we speak, and they say that could last into tomorrow, as well.

GRACE: We are talking about...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on just a second, Jim. I want to remind the viewers we`re speaking Jim Olson from KXMC-TV there in Minot, North Dakota. We`re talking about Leigh Cowen, age 22. He was a friend of the family`s. This little girl had been, I guess, for no better word, given away by her mom. She was living with a custodial aunt. This guy was a friend of the family`s. He took the little girl with him last Tuesday, posing as her biological father.

Now back to Jim Olson. You`re saying that they`re trying to find the trash from last Tuesday?

OLSON: No, last Friday. I just want to make sure it`s clear, too, he did not disappear at the same time that she disappeared, just so it`s clear for your viewers. She disappeared. She was not in her bed that morning after her mother had put her to bed.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you something, Jim.

OLSON: He was still on the scene then for five more days, saying that...

GRACE: Oh, really?

OLSON: ... he had taken her to his mother`s house. Right. And then he disappeared Monday of this week, along with the van that belonged to the mother, and...

GRACE: OK, wait, wait...

OLSON: ... when the Amber Alert was issued.

GRACE: ... wait, wait, wait. Jim, I get it. But that was not clear to me last night when we were first looking for Reachelle. OK, hold on. So this 22-year-old -- PS, who did not work and apparently had a drug problem -- took the easy way out, committing suicide by carbon monoxide, just fell asleep while the rest of the world is looking for this little girl.

So she`s put to bed on Monday or Tuesday night, Jim?

OLSON: Now I`m trying to remember. It was Tuesday of -- two weeks ago, or a week-and-a-half ago, Tuesday night. Then Wednesday morning, she was not in her bed. And he told the mother -- Leigh Cowen told the mother that, Well, don`t worry about it, I took her to my mother`s at the Minot Air Force base. And then, of course, you kind of talked about that last night, how that just sat there for five days, until finally, Leigh disappeared, along with the van. And then the Amber Alert was issued when the woman went to police.

GRACE: I get it. I get it.

You know -- to Marc Klaas, the president of Beyondmissing.com -- right there, I smell a rat with the guardian aunt because you put your kid to bed on, say, Tuesday night, and in the morning, the kid`s gone, and somebody goes, Oh, I took her for a visit. When? At 3:00 AM in the morning? Right there, the story stinks!

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Well, they`re all a bunch of dirty rotten liars, the aunt, the mother, the mother of the dead guy and the dead guy. And unfortunately, this little girl is missing. I`d say, though, the good news is that from everything we heard last night, the authorities are doing absolutely everything correctly and everything that they can to bring this girl home. Now, with your assistance, getting her face out there, if she`s alive, somebody will make that call in and that little girl will be recovered.

GRACE: We are taking your calls, your questions and your tips. Let`s go to Brenda in Oklahoma. Hi, Brenda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Ms. Grace.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dogs that picked up the scent along the river, do we know if they were just search dogs, or are they cadaver dogs?

GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s go to Vern Erck, the Ward County sheriff. Vern, I understand that you have brought in tracker dogs. They hit on a lake, which is currently, it`s my understanding, being drained, a lake or river. Were they tracker dogs or cadaver dogs?

SHERIFF VERN ERCK, WARD COUNTY, NORTH DAKOTA: Nancy, we actually have both there. We have some bloodhounds. We have Newfoundland dogs. Some of these dogs have been successful in at least eight cases of finding bodies in the water. So they`ve been down by the river today, the Souris River in Minot. And he did put a buoy out there, that they were in the process of draining the river, as you stated, and the divers are coming back into that area to check that area out, as well.

GRACE: Sheriff Erck, what type of dog made the initial hit? Everyone, we`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl that we are looking for tonight. The cadaver dog that hit at the river, or was it a tracker dog?

ERCK: It was actually a cadaver dog. And they`re Newfoundland breed, and they`ve been very successful in other searches in North Dakota and Minnesota. So they`re good dogs. They`re a cadaver dog and been very successful.

GRACE: Now, before we all get upset, excellent question from Brenda, the fact that this cadaver dog hit at a river. Back to Jim Olson, news director at KXMC-TV. Many times, for instance, in the search for Natalee Holloway, cadaver dogs made a hit, and they were hitting on biological waste. They were hitting on other things, other than a dead body. But of course, it doesn`t look good.

Jim, tell me about the draining of the river. How do you go about draining a river?

OLSON: Well, yes, it`s a little -- it`s kind a misnomer. It`s what they would call a dead loop of the river. It`s a portion the river that doesn`t have a lot of current, or very little current to it, and it`s kind of sitting water. And so that`s being drained into the moving part of the river. And we`re told that could take a couple of days to reduce the level enough so that they can more easily conduct that search.

But as the sheriff mentioned, you know, they have some hopeful signs. But they`re really doing everything they can possibly think of to go different directions. Another thing they did today was walk through a park that happens to be a favorite park where she likes to go and play. So many different directions today.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re really relying on the public in this instance to come up with new leads for us to follow up on. And there have been a number of phone calls that have come in since the Missing and Exploited Children`s information was put out nationwide.

The van is used by the family on a regular basis. So yes, there`s evidence of Reachelle being in the van a lot, as far as trace evidence. There is some evidence that we have taken to the state lab today for analyzing. We won`t get any answers to that until late tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Vern Erck, Ward County sheriff. Evidence was taken to the lab for analysis. What was the evidence?

ERCK: That would have been handled by the Minot Police Department.

GRACE: Do you know what the evidence was?

ERCK: No.

GRACE: Jim Olson, do you know what the evidence was that was taken to the crime lab?

OLSON: I don`t know the exact nature of it. It was evidence where they were trying to decide if it was evidence that she had been in the van within the last few days, as opposed to many times over several weeks or months.

GRACE: Let`s go to defense attorney Mickey Sherman, a veteran courtroom advocate, has handled many cases involving trace evidence. Mickey, it`s a good point. This child may have been in the van on earlier occasions. So when you`re talking about trace evidence, how do you determine, is it recent? Should it have been there naturally? Or does it have something to do with a murder or kidnap?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the problem is, you don`t know. And every expert, or many experts (INAUDIBLE) give you different answers to the same questions. The problem is, is, can it bring you any closer to finding out where she is? And if, in fact, she`s deceased, who killed her? That`s the problem. I mean, you may be able to prove that she was...

GRACE: Mickey, I disagree with you! For instance, what if blood is found -- contrary to what Mark Geragos, the defense attorney, would have everybody believe, people don`t normally get in their car and start bleeding, all right?

SHERMAN: Right.

GRACE: I can understand if the little girl`s fingerprints or her hair, maybe, from being in the car. We all shed hair without even knowing it. That would make sense. But I find out the little girl`s blood is all over the back seat, now, that`s a different story, Mickey Sherman!

SHERMAN: Blood certainly is in a category in by itself. But if it`s DNA which could have come from any other source on the young girl`s body, that -- that`s -- you know, that doesn`t really bring us closer to solving the problem.

The thing that bothers me about this case is that I think we`ve all kind of concluded that the guy who killed himself is probably the killer. And it`s probably the case, but it may not be the case. And I just wouldn`t want to see us in the same situation as that Elizabeth Smart case, where we just assumed that the guy who died in prison that time was, in fact, the culprit, and it turned out that she was walking around not too far from where she was taken.

GRACE: OK, Mickey. Elizabeth, can I see Mickey Sherman`s face for just a moment? Mickey...

SHERMAN: Yes?

GRACE: ... the guy admitted he took the girl.

SHERMAN: Yes.

GRACE: He lied about where he took her! His mother was interviewed. His mother has left the state, OK? He didn`t take her there! He committed suicide in the middle of a national park, a refuge, with the doors locked in his van!

SHERMAN: Did he -- did...

GRACE: Are you telling me...

SHERMAN: Yes?

GRACE: ... that you think there`s a mysterious perpetrator we don`t know about?

SHERMAN: No, but did he admit to the crime? Did he...

GRACE: No, he didn`t admit to the crime!

SHERMAN: Well, if he...

GRACE: Nobody ever -- did O.J. admit to the crime? No!

SHERMAN: No, but he didn`t kill himself, either. A lot of people, if they`re going to kill themselves, at least (INAUDIBLE) clear their conscience and confess.

GRACE: You know what? Good point. Good point.

Let`s go to the shrink. Joining us, psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. Bethany, the man drives to the middle of a national refuge, rolls up the windows and turns on the carbon monoxide. Explain.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, if he killed himself because he committed a crime, it`s not likely that he would confess beforehand because sometimes people do kill themselves when they`ve committed heinous crimes because they don`t want to face the music. They don`t want to stand trial for their crimes. And maybe they killed the child because they don`t want to be identified by the child.

There`s several things that really bother me about this case. I mean, first of all, the mother puts her 3-year-old child to bed at 10:30 at night. The first thing she says in a public interview is, This child makes me feel important. She makes you feel like you`re the most important person in the room. It`s all about the mom, it`s not about the kid. So this is already the type family that has the mentality of the abuser.

Then the dad -- the guy who takes her believes that he`s the dad, or he says that to people, and often, pedophiles convert the wish to have sex with the child in wish to be the parent of the child. So you have all these things popping up all over the place, and it just really doesn`t sound good.

GRACE: To Doug Burns. Let`s talk about child endangerment. Let`s talk about negligent care of a child, Doug. Doug Burns, veteran trial attorney himself. You`ve got the mom who gave up the little girl to the aunt.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: You`ve got the aunt, who lets the little girl be gone for four days and doesn`t even bother to call, Hey, do you need your inhaler? Do you need a change of clothes? How`re you doing? You want to come home? Nothing, Doug! Then they all get on TV and start crying.

BURNS: No, I liked your analysis last night. Let`s face it, to me, the key to this whole case is you must focus in on the biological mother, her relationship with her sister, why that kid is with the sister, who this 22-year-old guy is, what is his background from a criminal standpoint and otherwise? He did have some criminal problems. And then lastly, what`s the deal with his mother and her moving away and what he said about it?

If you piece through all of that, and I suspect the police are doing just that, that`s the key to unraveling it. And on the side, if they get lucky, obviously, and they turn up, sadly, tragically the body, that`ll tell you what happened also. But that`s really the reality of it.

I think Mickey hit it on the head. He probably did do it, but we`re not sure right now.

GRACE: Well, on the other hand, it could be something as simple as taking the girl and then dropping her off at a Wal-Mart, in a parking lot. Anyway, this girl very well could still be alive. Let`s remember Elizabeth Smart.

Very quickly, to Christina in West Virginia. Hi, Christina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why didn`t the family know he was not the biological father?

GRACE: The family knew. The family knew he wasn`t the biological father. He just told people that. He would often represent himself as the father, but yet they still let him have access to the child, Christina.

Very quickly, everyone, let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." An elementary school teacher accused of taking pornographic shots of a 10- year-old student on the hot seat, his Illinois school district set to fire 27-year-old David Cech (ph), Cech currently on suspension without pay.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We are breaking into our story out of North Dakota regarding the 3-year-old girl, Reachelle Smith, and bringing you the latest out of Independence, Missouri. Police officers now report that murder suspects Richard D. Davis and Dena D. Riley in police custody within the last hour. Davis 41, Riley 39, charged with murder one, kidnap, sodomy, rape and death of Marsha Spicer, Spicer`s body found in a shallow grave near Bates City (ph), Missouri.

Now, listen to this. Court records show the detectives found a graphic video, commonly known as a snuff film, in the couple`s apartment there in Independence. The video, according to police records, shows Davis and Riley beating and assaulting Ms. Spicer and killing her.

To Bethany Marshall. They put it on video, Bethany, on video, the beating, the sex attack on this lady...

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: ... apparently with masking tape across her mouth...

MARSHALL: Yes.

GRACE: ... and the killing. They put it on a video and left it in their apartment. Why didn`t they rent a billboard on 3rd Avenue...

MARSHALL: Exactly.

GRACE: ... that said, We did it?

MARSHALL: Well, when you think about why they put it on a videotape...

GRACE: Freaks!

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... they`re freaks!

MARSHALL: I concur with your professional opinion, Nancy. But often, these kinds of people use extreme cruelty and sadism in order to enhance their sexual arousal, so it makes sense that they would put on a tape so that they can watch it again and again and make it a part of a masturbatory routine.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. You`ve got the man and you`ve got the woman co-defendants.

MARSHALL: Yes.

GRACE: And you`re telling me the woman would use a snuff film...

MARSHALL: Yes. Here`s what we know about these types of rape- homicides...

GRACE: I don`t even know if I want you to finish this sentence!

MARSHALL: Do you want to know?

GRACE: Yes.

MARSHALL: Can I say it on TV.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

MARSHALL: OK. What you see with the women, often they`re bisexual. They get the man to act out their own sexual fantasies towards men.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. I don`t see how being bisexual, being gay or straight, has anything to do with a snuff film.

MARSHALL: Well, that`s not what causes it, but that`s just an important piece to be aware of because it might seem somewhat bizarre to your viewers. And then what happens -- there`s bisexuality. There`s extreme cruelty. There`s sadism. There`s wish to inflict pain on another person...

GRACE: Bethany, I`m shocked with you! I think the bisexual community is going to raise up in arms against you. I`m going to let you rethink that whole thing for one moment.

MARSHALL: OK.

GRACE: To Doug Burns -- Doug, your client -- how many times have I said to a jury, What do you want, a video? Now they`ve got a video. They`ve got a shallow grave with the lady`s body in it and a video of these two.

BURNS: Well, Perry Mason can`t win that case, assuming the video goes into evidence. Obviously, the "hail Mary" defense, you have to knock it out and see if you can block it. But as you say, how often are you going to see a case with the crime...

GRACE: Good luck trying to suppress this one, Doug.

BURNS: Right -- with the crime on a color video...

GRACE: Whew!

BURNS: ... I do not think that you can win the case.

GRACE: Nobody said about color. Now, that adds a whole new dimension.

BURNS: Yes, I added that in. Sorry.

GRACE: To Mickey Sherman. Mickey, go ahead. Let`s -- don`t surprise me. You`d represent the woman and claim he used thought control and he made her do it all, and she therefore is a battered woman. She had nothing to do with it, right?

SHERMAN: Well, I think I`d go with the masturbatory technique defense. Actually, Nancy, I just wanted to be able to say that on national television. You know, the problem is, they need to rat somebody out real big because there is no other way out of this thing. If they can find some mass murderer to inform upon, they got a shot. Other than that, these people are cooked.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve called in a lot more troops today to help us. They`ve come statewide from about 20, 25 different agencies. And I would guess there`s probably about 200 people out here out here now searching. We`re looking for any evidence of what we found yesterday, certainly, the deceased person in the van that was up there, you know, the girl that was supposedly with him, anything along those lines, anything and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Volunteers have joined together on ATM (ph), on horseback, on foot, trying to find a 3-year-old little girl. In fact, part of a river is now being drained in the hopes that they can find out what happened to 3- year-old Reachelle Smith. We are not giving up tonight. Please help us. Tip line 701-852-0111. Look at this girl. She`s only three feet tall, 40 pounds -- 40 pounds.

To John Libonati. He is the chairman of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, a colleague in arms. John, thank you for being with us tonight. John, what is NCMEC doing to help find Reachelle?

JOHN LIBONATI, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Well, Nancy, interestingly, here we are on National Missing Children`s Day, faced with -- faced with another incredible case. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children is doing several things. First and foremost, we have transmitted and disseminated images, beginning in a 90-mile radius, both electronically and by fax. We have some experts on the ground that provide assistance, particularly search experts. We`ve provided some mapping technology.

And I want to join Marc Klaas in saying, that this police -- the police authorities on the ground in North Dakota are doing everything correct, and they`re focusing on the search for this girl. And everything that I see, based everything I know, they are doing everything correctly, aggressively and by the book. And we have to hold hope on National Missing Children`s Day that we recover...

GRACE: As John is saying...

LIBONATI: ... this beautiful little girl safely.

GRACE: ... John Libonati with us, with National Center Missing Exploited Children, this is National Missing Children`s Day, and in that vein, we are showing you children missing all over the country.

To Terry in Illinois. Hi, Terry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know when Leigh`s mother fled.

GRACE: Interesting. Jim Olson, when did the mom leave for Kansas?

OLSON: Yes, that is something I wanted to get back to, based on something somebody said earlier. What the police have told us, and I could defer to Sheriff Erck...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Quickly.

OLSON: ... told us that she was staying behind to let her daughter finish the school year before she left to join her husband in Kansas. That`s why there was a delay, and that`s why she left when she did.

GRACE: OK.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN LAY, FORMER CEO OF ENRON: Certainly, we`re surprised. I think probably more appropriate to say we`re shocked. Certainly, this was not the outcome we expected. I firmly believe I`m innocent of the charges against me, as I have said from day one. I still firmly believe that as of this day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As you know by now, there`s a big, fat guilty verdict in the Enron case. But don`t you worry, to Lay and Skilling, we`re holding a vigil here on the set for you. And I want you to appeal the case all the way to the top. Keep the faith, people. Keep the faith!

Let`s go straight out to Bethany McLean, editor-at-large at "Fortune" magazine. She`s also co-author of "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room." Poor guys; they only made how many millions of dollars off their shareholders?

What happened in court?

BETHANY MCLEAN, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Well, Lay sold some, I guess, almost $80 million in the final year of Enron`s life, and Skilling about the same thing.

GRACE: Hold on. I`m choking.

MCLEAN: You know, it was -- actually one of the things about sitting in this trial is what a small world courtrooms are. And when you sit for four months and you watch these guys with their families, you see them as people. And on many levels, Enron is a tragedy. But with that said, that was the right verdict.

GRACE: Bethany, that oinking sound has nothing to do with you. This is especially...

MCLEAN: I`m relieved.

GRACE: ... for Mr. Lay and Mr. Skilling. Now, tell me, what happened when the verdict came down in the courtroom?

MCLEAN: Well, it was silent, absolutely silent, as the judge started to read the verdict. And as the guilty started to come out of his mouth, you could hear various people in the courtroom, members of Ken Lay`s family, start to burst into tears.

And I glanced over at Jeff Skilling. And he had an odd, almost smile, smirk on his face, and his lawyer, Dan Petrocelli, started rubbing his back. And when we got to Ken Lay and...

GRACE: I thought they were going to kiss.

(LAUGHTER)

MCLEAN: It`s been a very close relationship between the two, between Skilling and Petrocelli. Petrocelli clearly believes in his client`s innocence.

GRACE: What?

MCLEAN: What? Jeff Skilling is a very convincing man.

GRACE: I can`t believe Petrocelli fell for this. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFREY SKILLING, FORMER CEO OF ENRON: I would like to thank my family for sticking by me, and particularly my kids, Kristin, Jeffery and J.T., they`re just great. And I think we fought a good fight. And some things work; some things don`t.

We`re going to have to go back and I guess think this thing through. But, obviously, I`m disappointed but, you know, it`s the way the system works.

KEN LAY, FOUNDER OF ENRON: We believe that God, in fact, is in control and, indeed, he does work all things for good, for those who love the Lord. And we love our Lord. And ultimately, all of these things will work for good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I think the Lord probably loves the shareholders and hence the guilty verdict today.

Back to Bethany McLean. This has been your story from the get-go. Let`s talk about Trial 101, counts. Counts is a legal term, but what it boils down to is how many separate charges within one indictment. Bethany, what are we looking at, as far as punishment goes?

MCLEAN: Well, the maximum number of years for both men adds up to well over 100 years. Obviously, both men won`t live for another 100 years, so the sentence is going to be somewhat short of that. But at any rate, they`re looking at spending a significant portion of their remaining years in jail, assuming that they don`t prevail in the appeal process. And you can be sure there will be that.

GRACE: To Ali Velshi, CNN correspondent and anchor, welcome back, Ali. Ali, question to you: What evidence do you think really got the jury?

ALI VELSHI, CNN BUSINESS NEWS ANCHOR: The jury in this case took it very seriously, Nancy. They felt that the prosecution and the defense, both put good cases forward. And after speaking to the jurors, they felt - - they didn`t even think these guys were bad guys. They felt that they went wrong. They felt that these guys...

GRACE: Went wrong?

VELSHI: ... at the top of the Enron, they were cheerleading. They were cheerleading when they knew there were problems. That`s the bottom line. I spoke to ex-Enron employees who said...

GRACE: You mean cooking the books?

VELSHI: You know, the bigger problem is that all of those people who lost money, lost money. They could have sold their stock. They could have done all sorts of things. But these guys, Lay and Skilling, were out there telling everybody how healthy this company is, how this is a blip. They`re not the only guys in America who have done this.

But people who buy stock fall for that, and people lost their money. They lost their jobs. They invested in it. And these jurors understood that America`s workers and investors turn to these business leaders, and they believe them, and they trust them. And these two men betrayed the trust of their workers and the trust of the American investor.

GRACE: Well, as usual, Ali Velshi is correct that shareholders could sell their stock. But I want to go to Charles Prestwood, a former employee, a man that has lost everything, his entire life savings.

You weren`t allowed to get out of your investment with Enron, were you?

CHARLES PRESTWOOD, FMR. EMPLOYEE AND VICTIM OF ENRON: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Explain.

PRESTWOOD: Well, on that investment -- in other words, we were told to leave our stock right where it was at -- that Enron was going to -- they`re going to turn around. It`s going to come back. In other words, the company`s never been any stronger, you know? And we believe them things that we heard, you know?

GRACE: Mr. Prestwood, how long were you with Enron?

PRESTWOOD: Ma`am, I was with them 33 1/2 years.

GRACE: You know, you remind me so much of my father, who was a railroad man for over 40 years and loved his job, loved it.

PRESTWOOD: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And to think all he saved, his whole life, gone. What are you doing now?

PRESTWOOD: Ma`am, my health won`t permit me to work, you know? I do have a severe heart problem and things. I can`t get out and hold a public job because I`d never find nobody that would hire me, you know?

So I`m just trying to make it on my little, old pension and my Social Security. But, you know, when I retired in October 1, 2000, I thought I had all my I`s dotted and the T`s crossed, you know? I had everything lined out to where I could -- Helen and I could do some traveling.

We can`t do anything. I haven`t been anywhere. It`s a nightmare, trying to struggle and pay your bills with that little of money, you know?

GRACE: With us is Charles Prestwood. He lost his entire life`s savings because of what Enron did, the cooking the books.

Joining me right now, a corporate and securities attorney, a financial guru, Russ Alba, joining us by phone. Russ, are you surprised at the verdict? And what do you think was the straw that broke the camel`s back with this jury?

RUSS ALBA, CORPORATE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I wasn`t surprised by the verdict, based on the evidence. The overwhelming evidence by people who had pled guilty to the very crimes that Mr. Skilling and Mr. Lay were convicted of today was incredibly powerful evidence.

There was no smoking guns; it was all testimonial evidence. But too many people were prepared -- who had already pled guilty to the same or similar crimes testified that Mr. Skilling and Mr. Lay, indeed, knew and orchestrated these events that gave rise to the collapse of Enron.

GRACE: And what`s amazing to me -- Elizabeth, I find that highly distasteful, comparing Skilling and Lay to pigs at the trough.

ALBA: Well, it`s an insult to pigs everywhere.

GRACE: Thank you, Russ Alba, well-put and succinct for you, Russ Alba.

To Bethany McLean, who has been on the story from the very, very beginning. I agree with Russ Alba 200 percent. When I hear Charles Prestwood speaking out, is there any money left to go to the victim`s, Bethany?

MCLEAN: So well, there`s been a massive civil suit that has been winding its way through the courts. And so far, that`s reaped over $7 billion in recoveries from the Wall Street banks who were, at the very least, complicit in what happened at Enron.

How much of that money goes into lawyer`s pockets and how much of that money goes back to the Charles Prestwood`s of the world? I don`t actually know the answer to that yet, and we probably won`t know for years.

GRACE: Ali, what federal penitentiary will these two go to?

VELSHI: ... where they`re going to go. You know, white-collar criminals, Nancy, don`t tend to do hard time. So, as Bethany said, they`re going to spend a lot of time in jail if they don`t get appeal, but I don`t know how hard it`s going to be.

We had actually some people here saying, you know, they`re not going to go to some tough state jail, some tough state prison. But we don`t know yet where they`re going to go. Their sentencing will be on September the 11th.

GRACE: Come on, Ali, Ali, you`re a realist like me. You know they`re going to go to Club Fed, and play pool, and go jogging. And what about this defendant suddenly finding God and dragging God into this? God does not want to be part of the Enron trial.

VELSHI: No. And this is -- the problem here is that this trial`s gone on for four months to find out whether there`s guilt or there`s culpability or not, but we all know they managed the company badly. They did bad things.

GRACE: They lied, Ali. They lied.

VELSHI: And now, at least, you can`t do that.

GRACE: You`re putting perfume on the pig. Managed it badly? They lied.

VELSHI: Listen, I`m OK, Nancy -- I don`t care about people lying. Don`t cheat people out of their rest of their lives.

GRACE: Tell it.

VELSHI: Don`t cheat people out their incomes, their retirement. That`s the problem. You know what? If you want to lie to me, as long as you`re not hurting me, go ahead and lie.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE LEWIS, WDIV REPORTER (voice-over): A beautiful young woman, a mother of two boys, is found facedown in shallow water along shore of lower Herring Lake. A halo of blood surrounds her head in the water. How she got there is still a mystery. More than 400 pages of investigative reports point mostly at one suspect, her husband, Mark Unger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My whole world exploded. There`s no other way to put it. My whole world just stopped.

LEWIS: Even though Unger has never been charged, he may lose parental rights to their two sons because of suspicions he killed their mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Was it an accidental drowning or was she pushed? Let`s go out to Dave Spratt, the editor with "The Detroit News." What`s the latest, Dave?

DAVE SPRATT, EDITOR, "DETROIT NEWS": Well, today, the testimony centered on some paint samples that were found on Mark Unger`s shoe and whether they matched the railing on the boathouse deck where Florence and Mark Unger were last together.

GRACE: You know, Dave, let`s take it from the beginning. They went up to this Michigan lake for a getaway. She`s found floating facedown in the lake. Let`s talk about her injuries.

To Dr. Warner Spitz, forensic pathologist, Doctor, you actually took a look at the evidence in this case. What did you learn?

WARNER SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I saw the body. I did an autopsy on the body, a second autopsy. I saw she had a big injury on the right side of her head. She had fractures in several places, over the base of the skull in the front. She had a lot of bruises in the brain, and she had a lot of brain swelling.

And when you put it all together, there is really little doubt that she was totally unconscious at the time she hit the cement, 12 foot below the place where she came down from. And there is little double in my mind that she was not able to then get up and walk around and end up in the water by herself.

GRACE: Dr. Spitz, you said something that really jumps out at me. You said there were multiple, I guess, fractures or contusions along the base of the skull. Where were they?

SPITZ: In the right front running to the left. The impact on the cement was on the right side, as shown by the fact that there is gravel imprint, gravel from little stones on the pavement there, in the soft tissue on the right side of the head. And from there, the fractures radiated to the left, and so did the bruises.

GRACE: Dr. Spitz, is there any way, in your estimation, this could have been caused by one blow?

SPITZ: Yes, this was caused by a single, violent impact as she came down from the top of that shed, 12 foot above.

GRACE: And how did she end up in the water?

SPITZ: That is the question. That is...

GRACE: So what was in her lungs, Dr. Spitz?

SPITZ: In her lungs -- well, the lungs were wet, but they are wet -- in other words, edematous -- from just a plain head injury. You do not have to be in the water.

GRACE: Was there blood in her lungs?

SPITZ: There was congestion, yes; there was blood in the lungs.

GRACE: Dr. Spitz, who hired you to come do the additional autopsy?

SPITZ: The family hired me to do the second autopsy, but they never liked what...

GRACE: You said.

SPITZ: ... what I said, and I was never called to testify.

GRACE: You mean Mark Unger, the husband, hired you?

SPITZ: Well, I don`t really know. An attorney hired me, and he represented the -- yes, he represented the Mark Unger family.

GRACE: OK.

To Mickey Sherman, the defense hires an esteemed, renowned expert like Dr. Warner Spitz. They don`t like what he says...

SHERMAN: Stop payment on the check immediately.

GRACE: So can the state now call him to the stand?

SHERMAN: Yes, they can. He`s a witness. I don`t think he owes any great allegiance.

GRACE: OK.

SHERMAN: It may not sound fair.

GRACE: It sounds fair to me.

SHERMAN: But I`ve done it the other way around. I`ve called the state`s experts when they didn`t want to call them, so it`s fair game for both sides.

GRACE: Yes, absolutely.

SHERMAN: And the idea is that an expert is an expert. They don`t belong to anybody.

GRACE: True.

Back to the editor of "The Detroit News," Dave Spratt. What was their marital history?

SPRATT: Well, they had had some troubles. They actually were at the resort to kind of iron out the details of their divorce.

GRACE: How often does that work, Bethany? You can`t get along with your spouse, and then you`re holed up in a vacation cottage?

MARSHALL: Well, to me this is a sign of being in an abusive marriage, because what she said to a good friend was she felt she had to go. And, reading between the lines, she felt that, if she didn`t go along, it would be considered abandonment of the children as a part of the divorce.

But we know that, in abusive relationships, women are at the greatest risk for homicide as they`re about to leave a relationship.

GRACE: That`s an interesting point, Bethany.

Because Doug Burns, just two months before she had filed for divorce, right, Ellie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s right.

GRACE: And then suddenly he decides he wants to go on a romantic makeup at a reclusive lake. I don`t like it -- Doug?

BURNS: You have to look at context of this thing. What happened was -- I mean, a lawyer sadly -- and I`m not bashing him, obviously, because there but for the grace of God -- but advised her to go there to avoid, as your previous guest said, some claim of abandonment, and this is what resulted.

If you look at this case, there are all kind of history here, that you have to look at the whole thing, and it`s really kind of a shocking, sordid tell. That didn`t mean she didn`t slip and fall; we don`t know that. But...

GRACE: She slipped and fell, and then unconscious somehow wound up in the water.

BURNS: We don`t know.

GRACE: Dr. Spitz, is there any way this woman, after this fall, could have, what, crawled to the water and thrown herself in?

SPITZ: For that happening, crawling after an impact like she sustained, is extremely remote. And, remember: Bodies do not bounce.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... we have received information that Mrs. Unger died from a blunt trauma to the head, that there was no drowning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 37-year-old woman goes along with her husband`s idea for a romantic reconciliation at a remote lake house. Well, she`s dead and he`s on trial.

But the mode of death, is it drowning? Was it an accident, or was she pushed?

To the editor of "The Detroit News," Dave Spratt. Dave, again, thank you for being with us. What exactly, in a nutshell, do prosecutors say happened?

SPRATT: They say that she either fell or was pushed. And that, in an effort to make it looks like an accident, Mark Unger then dragged her into the lake.

GRACE: But if she fell, that would have been an accident. The prosecutors are saying it`s an accident?

SPRATT: Well, they`re not really stating that one way or the other. Their point is more what happened after she went over the edge.

GRACE: Ah, ah, that she had to be dragged into the water, correct?

SPRATT: Correct.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, it was interesting to me what you were saying about when women are at the highest risk. Explain.

MARSHALL: Well, because what happens is, if they`re married to an abusive man who`s sort of clingy, baby-like, wants to hold onto her, his rage will escalate as she`s about to walk out the door and, hence, the homicidal instinct will increase.

GRACE: Right.

MARSHALL: And we also know this guy had multiple addictions. It`s like he was addicted to her, but for her not to be there...

GRACE: So you`re saying, when she tried to leave -- very quickly, hi, Yolanda in Texas. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Yes. I love you, by the way.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for watching.

CALLER: I just want to be just brief. I was a victim, and I just wanted to know if this victim ever filed charges against her husband.

GRACE: Good question. Dave Spratt, did she?

SPRATT: Not to our knowledge, no.

GRACE: Of course, most domestic abuse goes unreported.

Everyone, switching gears and very important, tonight we remember Tech Sergeant Walter Moss, Jr., 37, Houston, Texas, killed, Iraq. Moss, survived by his widow, a 13-year-old son, a 9-year-old daughter. Walter Moss, Jr., tonight an American hero.

Thank you to all of my guests, but our biggest thank you, as always on this show, is to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END