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American Morning

How Will Hayden Fix the CIA?; Matt Damon Champions Causes in Africa

Aired May 31, 2006 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. I'm Miles O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Soledad O'Brien. Lots to get to this morning.

(NEWSBREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: General Michael Hayden is generally regarded as an brilliant spy and a world class briefer of Washington power players. But he arrives at the CIA this morning for his first full official day on the job with a real mess on his hands. How will he fix it?

Who better to ask than the real life CIA operative portrayed by George Clooney in the movie "Syriana"? His name is Robert Baer, and these days, he's an author. He wrote "Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." And now he's out with a novel, turning to fiction, a spy thriller. It's titled "Blow the House Down." And he joins us now.

Robert Baer, you look just like George Clooney.

ROBERT BAER, "BLOW THE HOUSE DOWN": Well, that's kind.

M. O'BRIEN: Good to have you with us. I want to talk about the book. But first let's talk about Michael Hayden and what tasks lie ahead of him. Big one, right?

BAER: Well, it is a big one. But, look, he's got a couple of advantages. One, he's coming from the National Security Agency, which right now is producing the best intelligence in Washington. And it has for a long time. He knows intelligence. He's a general. If he has to, he knows how to take on Rumsfeld, the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But what I like right now is he's saying all the right things. He's saying the amateur hour is over. And we're going to be based -- and service is going to be based on competence and competence alone. You know, by telling the truth about the CIA, you know, you're on the road to recovery.

M. O'BRIEN: He doesn't suffer fools. That message, if you're good, should be something you'd applaud at the CIA.

BAER: Oh, absolutely.

M. O'BRIEN: Not everybody's applauding, though, right? BAER: No, they did. He had a meeting in the bubble and he said it's -- we're based on competence and we're going to restore our reputation. Everybody stood up, and got a standing ovation. That's probably the first time at the CIA in years that's happened from the employees.

M. O'BRIEN: So you're optimistic at this point?

BAER: At this point...

M. O'BRIEN: If anybody can do it...

BAER: But, you know, turning around a ship like this, it's not easy.

M. O'BRIEN: Is it possible the CIA is an anachronism, a complete Cold War relic? It needs to be changed in a really fundamental way?

BAER: A lot of things need to be changed, but the CIA is necessary. You know, a lot of Americans doubt it, but we need an organization in Washington that's independent of politics, which the CIA hasn't been, to tell the president the truth. Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. It was an easy thing to tell the president we're not certain. Maybe he's got it, maybe he doesn't. The intelligence is bad. Sorry, Mr. Bush. That's what they should have said. Instead, they backed up the war.

M. O'BRIEN: All right -- let's get to point where fact meet fiction here. In your book "Blow the House Down," one of the theses that comes through here is that the U.S. has kind of overlooked the influence of Iran over the years and, in fact, might have had some significant influence in the 9/11 attacks. Why don't you lay that out for us?

BAER: Well, I've got a long history with Iran. The Iranians killed two of my bosses. The last one, they tortured to death, Bill Buckley (ph). The Iranians, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, was responsible for taking the hostages in Lebanon. They undoubtedly had a role in Pan Am 103, although they were not indicted. The Scottish appeals court may rehear Pan Am 103. Why was it covered up all these years since 1979, the Iranian Revolution? I -- that's a theme with my novel. It looks, if you're on outside, like a conspiracy.

M. O'BRIEN: What do you think it is, though? Because you also talk about significant links between Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda and Iran. What -- why would there a cover up of that?

BAER: Because it's very practical. You know, if you're dealing in the world of fiction, we can take conspiracies, which I have done in this book. This book is fictional, about 10 percent of it. The truth is, Iran is a country we could never fight. We can't invade. We've been unable to change the leadership.

The losses we've taken from Iran are fairly minimal -- well, they're not minimal to the people who died, of course. But we just couldn't take it on. It was a bridge too far. Until now, until we have a president who is not only nuts, but he was a member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, he has American blood on his hands, he's being investigated for a couple murders in Europe.

M. O'BRIEN: You say Ahmadinejad was actually directly involved in the marine barracks bombing back in the 1980s in Beirut.

BAER: He was...

M. O'BRIEN: In addition, one of the hostage takers in '79. And now he's the president of Iran. How do you deal with somebody like that?

BAER: Well, the Gulf countries. I've been out in the Gulf, say -- you guys, you want to take on Iran, decapitate the regime. Get rid of Ahmadinejad. It's a bit extreme.

M. O'BRIEN: Would that really do it, though?

BAER: I don't know Iran that well. Maybe it would. But this guy is a problem. I mean, his public statements. The problem we really have is Israel. Israel's looking at this guy and saying, all right, if he gets a nuclear bomb, he's capable of pulling the trigger. What do you if you're President Bush and the Israelis come to Washington and say we can't live with this guy. He'd say, oh well, yes, he may nuke you, but what can we do about it? You can't -- we have a dilemma here and the White House doesn't want another war, but what do you do about Ahmadinejad?

M. O'BRIEN: The goal would be to neutralize and contain. Can it be done with some of the carrots and sticks being traded about and discussed with the Europeans?

BAER: No.

M. O'BRIEN: Can't be done?

BAER: Ahmadinejad is a believer, and he believes this is a final confrontation with the United States. He's a believer in the apocalypse, that if everybody dies at this point and the Medhi (ph) returns -- we've got some real problems with this guy.

M. O'BRIEN: Robert Baer, thank you very much. It's fiction. Ten percent fiction.

BAER: About 10 percent.

M. O'BRIEN: Awful lot of real life stuff in there, as well. Thanks for spending some time with us, and, you know, good job translating the spy work into the fiction work. I guess it's not that big of a leap.

BAER: Thanks.

M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.

(WEATHER REPORT) S. O'BRIEN: Ahead this morning, we're going to talking to Matt Damon, the actor, of course. He's got -- his latest role in real life might be his most important one yet. We're going tell us about the fight against AIDS in Africa, and what his impending fatherhood had to do about it.

M. O'BRIEN: And we'll ask him what dance step he's doing, right?

And later, pearls of wisdom from Willie Nelson. We'll talk with the country music legend about his new book, "The Tao of Willie." That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: Actor Matt Damon is lending his voice to the fight against AIDS and global poverty. He spent six days in Africa this month, a place where 25 million people are infected with HIV. Nearly two million of them are children. He got a firsthand look at the scope of the problem and some of the solutions, too. Matt Damon's in Miami this morning.

Nice to see you, Matt. How are you this morning?

MATT DAMON, ACTOR: I'm great. How are you doing?

S. O'BRIEN: I'm doing well. Thank you. Why Africa? why did you feel the need to go to Africa for a tour of what was really happening there?

DAMON: Well, it was something I'd been aware of for a while. I think kind of the aggregate affect of hearing about it and thinking about it a lot, plus being ready to bring a baby into the world myself, I started to think a lot about the kind of world that I wanted to leave her and her children. So it was a lot.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, sounds like a lot. You went to Zambia. You went to a school in the Kandiwa (ph) area. At the school, 100 children attend school there; 97 of these 100 children have HIV. What was it like?

DAMON: Well, yes. We saw a lot of that there, a lot of kids with AIDS, or HIV, a lot of orphans. That's a very, very big issue there. AIDS in Sub-Saharan Africa, it's really decimated a generation. You see a lot of children living with grandparents because their parents -- that generation has just literally been wiped out.

S. O'BRIEN: Let me ask you a question. You talked to a guy whose wife died of AIDS and he is HIV positive, and he described for you what happened to him and sort of the good news really when he got drugs and he got treatment. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I lost all hope in life. My children went out like street children. I went for a visit and the test came out positive. And after private counseling, I accepted my status, as well I was able to retain my children back, and in the process, I was even found a partner who I'm married in my status, and I'm happily married now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

S. O'BRIEN: And there she is. The wife comes out, the new wife comes out. You know, I expected for this to be, honestly, fairly depressing, and I think it is, but you know, a lot of the of videotape that you have come back with is actually very hopeful.

DAMON: Yes, I mean, I think there's a lot to be hopeful about. I mean, these anti-retroviral drugs that are going in there, they cost about a $1 a day. The places where these drugs getting, really it has a Lazarus effect on these patients; they come back to life. That place where that man spoke was actually a clinic, the Ciders (ph) Clinic in Lusaka, in Zambia that actually has -- I mean, it's literally -- you can translate our tax dollars to the saving of human lives. It's really quite exceptional. So at a time when the global fund is under discussion up on the Hill, you know, I think Americans need to be aware of what's going on there. One.org is a place to get information because, you know, we all get busy in our lives, and all we have our own problems and our things that we're focusing on, and sometimes, you know, to think about this continent where, you know, that's struggling under all these various crises, it might seem a little overwhelming. And, you know, to be able to get a bulletin on the Internet or something, keep you informed and keep you up to speed on what's going on in a way that totally doesn't overtake your own life. I think it'll allow us to be a lot more effective.

S. O'BRIEN: I think when you do the math, a dollar a day, it really -- it's sort of within everybody's reach, at least a little bit at a time. Before I let you go, I want to ask you about the new baby. It's going to be a girl. When is she due?

DAMON: Well...

S. O'BRIEN: Any names? Any info you want to share? Soledad's a lovely name. Soledad Damon. I like it. I like little baby Soledad.

DAMON: Well, let's see. When we're due, let's put it this way, I came here to do this interview actually with my wife because we're afraid of me leaving the house at this point. So any time we're expecting her to come along, and we have picked a name, the name Isabella is.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, nice.

DAMON: We have been calling her Isabella for months.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, better than Soledad even. Matt, always nice to catch up with you. Thanks for coming to talk to us about this work, not just your movie work, but also this really important work. We appreciate it.

DAMON: I appreciate you having us. And please have us on in the future, all of us who want to talk about this, because it needs to stay in all of our minds and our hearts.

S. O'BRIEN: Excellent. Thanks, Matt.

DAMON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

S. O'BRIEN: I like me some Matt Damon. I'll tell you that.

M. O'BRIEN: We'll let Brad know about that.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, Brad already knows.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: It's a Boston thing, right?

S. O'BRIEN: It's a Boston thing. I went to school with him. We went to school at the same time.

SERWER: You were pals in school?

S. O'BRIEN And he's a movie star that helps.

M. O'BRIEN: You were a college pals? Chums?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, he's a little younger than me. We were there at the same time.

M. O'BRIEN: Not going there.

S. O'BRIEN: That's right. Very, very wise.

Andy Serwer...

SERWER: Soledad O'Brien.

All's well at the other Enron, a highly regarded company. We're going to tell you about that.

Plus, Time Warner stubs its toe on a tiny cable company wrapped in the American flag.

S. O'BRIEN: Hmm, a lot of hints there.

SERWER: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: I guess I have to wait until the story.

SERWER: Yes, you're going to have to wait.

S. O'BRIEN: After the break. SERWER: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Andy, thank you.

SERWER: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN Also ahead this morning, a guide to happiness, true happiness, from Willie Nelson. He's got a new book out. It's called "The Tao" -- or Dao -- "of Willie." He's going to tell us all about just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: On "PAULA ZAHN NOW" tonight, an eye opening look at what some are claiming is a way to live longer, much longer. CNN's Keith Oppenheim introduces you to a couple who meticulously count every little thing that goes into their body.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a little more garlic powder, baby.

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): April Smith (ph) and Michael Ray (ph) live together in Philadelphia.

They're making a nice lunch: grape tomatoes and scallops sauteed with cilantro, a side salad of arugula and fresh berries. While they cook, April and Michael do a lot of math.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have the count on that, honey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's quite easy. It's 550 CCs, so it's 1.1 calorie per -- no, wait.

OPPENHEIM: April and Michael are members of what's called the Calorie Restriction Society. They count every morsel they eat. Michael says every day, he takes in exactly 1,913 calories. April aims for around 1,300.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: Wow. That's some serious mathematics every day.

S. O'BRIEN: Gosh. Every meal is torture. Can you imagine? How much was that brownie I had?

M. O'BRIEN: All right. You want to know more about that? Tune into "PAULA ZAHN NOW," tonight at 8:00, and find out. You live longer but boy, it really will seem -- you know what it is, it just seems longer. Life will seem so long.

S. O'BRIEN: I was going to say that.

SERWER: And that's a good thing.

M. O'BRIEN: I guess. S. O'BRIEN: How much coffee -- how much milk did you put in there?

M. O'BRIEN: Oh, I don't know. I better measure that out.

S. O'BRIEN: That's 30 calories.

M. O'BRIEN: I just had a bagel, too. Oh, jeez. Shouldn't have done that. Going to weigh it.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

S. O'BRIEN: We're going to take a look at our top stories just ahead. Stay with us, everybody.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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