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President Paul Kagame of Rwanda Meets With President Bush; U.S. Agrees to Take Part in Talks With Iran

Aired May 31, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: As soon as Iran fully and verifiably suspends its enrichment and reprocessing activities, the United States will come to the table with our EU colleagues and meet with Iran's representatives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: A change of heart. Washington says it is now ready to talk to Iran directly about its nuclear ambitions under certain conditions.

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: In Basra, the Iraqi prime minister vows to confront troublemakers in the oil-rich city with an iron fist.

CLANCY: And football's ultimate contest. It's not just the players who are gearing up for the World Cup. The city of Frankfurt sprucing up as well.

CHURCH: It's noon in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Basra.

I'm Rosemary Church.

CHURCH: I'm Jim Clancy.

Welcome to our viewers around the world and in the United States.

This is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

Rwanda's president Paul Kagame is at the White House. He spoke with the U.S. president. They came out a few minutes ago. Let's listen -- these are taped comments recorded just a few minutes ago.

Let's listen.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The president is a man of action. He can get things done.

I'm proud of your leadership.

We've talked about a lot of issues. We talked about the Sudan. And I want to thank the president for committing troops in the A.U. mission to help deal with what I have called a genocide. We strategized about how we can go forward to resolve this situation. And I thank you for your wisdom. I thank you for your concern.

One of the interesting things about President Kagame's government is there are more women in his government than anywhere else in Africa. Which I think speaks to the man's character and understanding about how societies remain strong and whole.

I appreciate his commitment to education.

And I want to thank you, Mr. President, for your understanding that the best way for an economy to develop is to welcome private capital.

He's been working hard with companies here in America. Many companies are taking a good look at Rwanda because they realize it's a country where they will be treated fairly and there's a transparent society. And he's had some success, which will help people find work. And that's, to me, a sign of leadership.

So, welcome back.

I, finally, want to thank you to your commitment to fighting HIV/AIDS. This government has done a really good job of using some of the monies that we provided to save lives.

And I've always told people that it's one thing for the American government -- and the American people, more importantly -- to generously write checks to help, but it requires strong leadership at home. And you provided that leadership.

And so I welcome you back to the Oval Office and thank you for your friendship.

PAUL KAGAME, PRESIDENT OF RWANDA: Thank you, President.

It's a great honor for me to be here, President. And appreciate the discussion we have had on a wide range of issues, starting with bilateral discussions about how the United States government has been great help to the support to Rwanda in different areas: in dealing with HIV/AIDS, through supporting the private sector to invest in our country, to dealing with infrastructure programs, and also the support we have had during the period we were working under the African Union mission to send our troops to Darfur.

The United States government, with your support, Mr. President, we have had our forces, our troops airlifted by United States military to Darfur, and we continue support for the African Union mission.

We are very grateful for, generally, the support in the area of bringing peace to the Great Lakes region and to supporting the efforts in Sudan and ultimately that process of supporting my country to be able to develop and continue (INAUDIBLE) the foundation you have laid in the last 12 years.

So we appreciate that, Mr. President.

BUSH: You're welcome.

The president and I will take two questions a side starting with the Americans.

QUESTION: What have you been told about the killings at Haditha? And are you worried about the impact this could have on the situation in Iraq?

BUSH: I am troubled by the initial news stories. I am mindful that there is a thorough investigation going on. If, in fact, the -- you know, laws were broken, there will be punishment.

I know this. I've talked to General Pete Pace about the subject. He's a proud Marine. And nobody is more concerned about these allegations than the Marine Corps.

The Marine Corps is full of men and women who are honorable people, who understand rules of war. And if, in fact, these allegations are true, the Marine Corps will work hard to make sure that that culture -- that proud culture will be reinforced, and that those who violated the law -- if they did -- will be punished.

Yes, sir?

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

BUSH: Welcome.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) but many of the (INAUDIBLE) of the genocide, many people who carried out the genocide are still at large. One estimate (ph) over 50 of them are in Europe and the U.S.; others in the Congo.

What is the U.S. going to do to help (INAUDIBLE) these people?

BUSH: The -- the interesting thing about Rwanda today is that you have a president who understands that part of a successful society is where people work hard on reconciliation.

It's a -- there's no question that the genocide in Rwanda was a real tragedy. It's one of the most significant tragedies in modern history. And yet your president and his government has worked hard to reconcile -- help people reconcile the tragedy at all levels of society.

To the extent that he wants our help in finding certain perpetuators of crime, we'll be glad to do so.

But the way I look at the situation is that Rwanda can serve as an example for other societies that are troubled. As you know, we're working hard in Iraq to bring -- to help a democracy grow there. And yet there's still sectarian violence. People are still using violence to achieve either revenge or political means.

And the Rwanda example shows what's possible when people work hard on reconciliation. That's why I support Prime Minister Maliki's desire to have reconciliation moves. And the president actually offered to help and maybe at some point in time it makes sense for the new government in Iraq to do that.

But I'm very proud of the accomplishments that Rwanda has made over 13 years -- 13 years after the genocide.

QUESTION: Mr. President, Secretary Rice is outlining a change in U.S. position toward Iran today after so many years of not engaging directly with them. Why now? And will you respond directly to the letter from the president?

BUSH: We -- I believe it's very important that we solve this issue diplomatically.

And my decision today says that the United States is going to take a leadership position in solving this issue. And our message to the Iranians is that, "One, you won't have a weapon and, two, that you must verifiably suspend any programs, at which point we will come to the negotiating table to work on a way forward."

I thought it was important for the United States to take the lead, along with our partners. And that's what you're seeing. You're seeing robust diplomacy.

I believe this problem can be solved diplomatically and I'm going to give it every effort to do so.

I talked on the telephone in the last couple of days with Jacques Chirac and Angela Merkel, and I spoke to Tony Blair when he was here about this issue. I spoke to Prime Minister Koizumi. I'm on the phone a lot talking to -- and President Putin, by the way. And I'm on the phone a lot talking to our folks that share the same concern I share to say, "Look, let's get this solved diplomatically, but there must be a united international front that shares the same message and that is is that we will work collaboratively to prevent the Iranians from developing a nuclear weapon."

And I also want to make it very clear that we have -- we respect the Iranian people and we respect their heritage and their history. And we hope their government does -- listens to the international demands and it doesn't isolate itself from the world and doesn't foolishly spend money on a weapons program that takes away the capacity -- the ability for the Iranian economy to grow so people are able to put food on the table and find work.

BUSH: Anybody else from Rwanda?

QUESTION: Change the subject?

BUSH: Yes, we got to share...

QUESTION: Yes, Mister...

BUSH: Oh, there you are. Thank you.

QUESTION: I come from Rwanda. I work (INAUDIBLE) Times. (INAUDIBLE) in Darfur. But despite all that you've been doing, it has persisted. Are you planning to up your support in that regard in that region?

BUSH: To support the Rwanda troops in Darfur? I will.

As a matter of fact, we had a very good discussion about this subject. The president's concerned about whether or not the United States will honor its commitments. We will honor our commitments. But the United States Congress must pass the supplemental with the money in there for the Sudan.

You see, part of the money in a supplemental request that's working its way through a conference committee now is to help repay a country like Rwanda that's putting troops on the ground.

And so I told the president that sometimes the Congress doesn't move as quickly as -- you know, as I'd like on issues, but I'm confident they'll get the supplemental passed when they come back from their Memorial Day break.

That supplemental must, one, meet the financial conditions that I talked about; in other words, I'm going to veto the bill if they spend more money than I requested. And it's got to set -- it's got to meet priorities, as well.

And one of the priorities is our own troops who are in harm's way. And another priority is helping the Katrina victims. And a third priority is -- in that bill that we've submitted is to help -- is to help in Sudan. And I told that president I'm confident they'll pass that bill and that his troops will get reimbursed.

Thank you all very much.

BUSH: I told the president I'm confident they'll -- they'll pass that bill and that his troops will get reimbursed.

Thank you all very much.

CLANCY: U.S. President George W. Bush there, alongside President Paul Kagame of Rwanda. Rwanda, of course, suffering tragic genocide 12 years ago, 1994, a genocide that killed more than 800,000 civilians -- there meeting alongside President Bush. And it was noted there that of all the countries to donate troops, the very first one was Rwanda to help the beleaguered people in Darfur, in Sudan.

It is still a part of that African Union mission there. The two leaders discussed that. But as you could tell there, the focus of what was being asked of the president really shifted quickly to Iran and Iraq.

On Iraq and the investigation into possible charges of murder against U.S. Marines in Haditha, the president there said if there has been a crime committed there will be punishment due, saying that the Marine Corps, above all, was concerned about preserving its own high standards. On Iran, the president coming forthright, saying what we're looking at right now, this change of policy, announcing the U.S. is ready to join in talks with three major European countries. The president described this as robust diplomacy, but very quickly saying the Iranians have to understand a few things. Number one, you're not going to have a weapon. And number two, you must suspend all enrichment activities.

So taking a rather tough approach there, but saying he still believes that this is a dispute over Iran's nuclear program that can be resolved diplomatically.

CHURCH: All right. We do want to get some more now on what appears to be a major shift in U.S. policy.

We heard U.S. President George W. Bush address and answer some of the questions on this. Washington now saying it's willing to talk to Iran about its nuclear program. But there are conditions attached.

We want to go straight to Washington for the developments. And National Correspondent David Ensor joins us now.

David, quite a turnaround.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It is, Rosemary, but the conditions are pretty stringent, and they will be difficult for an Iran that has been trumpeting its progress in enriching uranium recently to swallow. Condition number one, they must suspend -- verifiably suspend all enrichment of uranium.

This is how Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICE: As soon as Iran fully and verifiably suspends its enrichment and reprocessing activities, the United States will come to the table with our EU colleagues and meet with Iran's representatives.

This morning, United States representatives have conveyed my statement to Iran through the good offices of the Swiss government and through Iran's representative to the United Nations. Given the benefits of this positive path for the Iranian people, regional security, and the nuclear nonproliferation regime, we urge Iran to make this choice for peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: A little more clarity in conversation just -- just now with a senior administration official who said that Russia and China and the other members of the perm five, plus Germany, were all in agreement that the U.S. should not sit down with Iran until the enrichment process is stopped. However, there is not yet full agreement on the package of incentives and punishments that are going to be offered to Iran soon.

The official saying he believes that it may be possible to come to final agreement on that entire package during Condoleezza Rice's visit with her counterparts in Vienna, which will be tomorrow. She's leaving today from Washington for those meetings.

The package, we understand, includes a series of sanctions which the group would agree to impose on Iran, but apparently, at least in the initial stages, the sanctions would not go after oil and gas as a target. But this official said to me that the sanctions would be quite serious in the event Iran chooses what he called the wrong road -- Rosemary.

CHURCH: David Ensor bringing us some clarification there from Washington.

Thanks so much.

CLANCY: All right. We're going to focus our attention now on Iraq. The prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, has declared a state of emergency in Basra. It comes as he's taking a hard-line approach to the killing of 24 Iraqi citizens in November allegedly by U.S. Marines.

Ryan Chilcote keeping watch in Baghdad.

Ryan, a few minutes ago we watched President Bush from the Oval Office, and you could feel, really, the tension there, real concern about what is going on in Iraq. And he reflected and he talked about how it's affecting the Marine Corps. Where you are in Baghdad, it's also hitting the politicians, and especially the people.

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's very interesting that President Bush there mentioned that he would like to see punishment if these allegations that the Marines did kill civilians in Haditha proved true. That is something that we are now hearing from the Iraqi prime minister as well.

He spoke about this in the last 24 hours for the first time, saying that he is very concerned about these reports of civilian killings. He said that this is not the first report. And he said he's very concerned about the excuses that he sometimes feels he has been getting from the U.S. military when they occur.

It just goes to show that the tensions are most certainly on the rise here. It feels as if Iraq just really got over Abu Ghraib. Now we have this Haditha report. And there are even more allegations today. They feel like they're coming out of the woodwork -- Jim.

CLANCY: On another front, the prime minister himself was down in Basra, and he is concerned about the situation there, vis-a-vis Iraqis and their relations with one another.

CHILCOTE: That's right. The prime minister was in the southern city of Basra. That's where he declared that state of emergency.

It maybe shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that he did that. There has been a lot of violence in Basra over the last month. More than 140 Iraqis killed there this May. Really three different kinds of fighting going on.

We have seen a big increase in violence against British troops that are stationed there. We have seen a lot of gang warfare in Basra. That's basically infighting between Shiite militias in the city. And we have also seen some disturbing signs of sectarian violence. A lot of Sunnis getting killed in that city. A lot of Sunnis saying that they fear that there are Shiite death squads operating in Basra.

Obviously, the prime minister is hoping that with this state of emergency declaration he can put a stop to some of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOURI AL-MALIKI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We shall hit with an iron fist the heads of the gangs or those that threaten security. We shall request all security departments to draw an effective and quick plan to achieve security to a standard which would give citizens the feeling of security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHILCOTE: Of course, Basra was always known for having that feel of security. But it has not been that way, in particular, for the last month, and particular for British forces. This has been the deadliest month for British forces since they moved into Iraq in 2003 -- Jim.

CLANCY: Ryan Chilcote, our thanks to you, reporting there live from Baghdad.

We're going to have a lot more on this a little later bit later in our program, including a firsthand account from some young survivors of the alleged killings in Haditha.

Right now we're going to take a break.

Coming up, we'll examine the U.S. secretary of state's statement on joining multi-party talks with Iran.

CHURCH: Also ahead, food air drops are becoming more regular, but medical care remains spotty for the survivors of the deadly Indonesia earthquake. We'll have the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We -- I believe it's very important that -- that we solve this issue diplomatically, and my decision today says that the United States is going to take a leadership position in solving this issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: All right. We heard earlier -- there we heard from the president. We heard earlier from the U.S. secretary of state, announcing that the United States would be willing to join talks, direct talks, with Iran, with its European partners, provided -- provided that the regime in Iran agree to suspend or end its nuclear enrichment program. Far from certain whether they will do it.

Joining us now for some perspective, Joseph Cirincione. He's the president for national security at the Center for American Progress.

Thank you very much for being with us.

What's going on in both capitals right now? The Bush administration, many people thought, would never go to this -- to the point of offering talks with Iran. Obviously, there's been a fight in the White House or a struggle of ideas.

JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Yes, I think that's exactly right. There are competing factions in both capitals, Tehran and Washington, about how to resolve this.

The hard-liners in Washington have never wanted to have negotiations with the Islamic republic. They said that would legitimize the regime or reward bad behavior. Clearly, they have lost the battle, at least for today. The pragmatists normally seen as being headed by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice seem to have prevailed.

So they made a concession today. This is a major diplomatic shift on the part of the United States. We don't yet know whether it will lead to a diplomatic breakthrough. There's a lot of maneuvering, of negotiating yet to go, even to get to the point of the talks.

CLANCY: What about the clerics? What about Ahmadinejad in Tehran today? They've listened to this. They've heard it.

CIRINCIONE: Well, Ahmadinejad can play this one of two ways. He could say, see, my tough line is working, the United States is now willing to come to us. But I suspect that he does not want negotiations.

This conflict works well for him. He gets to posture as the warrior president who can defend Iran from the threat of American -- what he would call American imperialism. But the clerics are a more pragmatic group. And then the reformers, the more business-oriented sections of the Iranian ruling the lead, also recognize that sanctions can hurt even this current state of limbo where they don't have full relations with the West, hurt them.

You may see them make a move here. It's not beyond consideration that Iran would, in fact, announce a temporary suspension of its uranium enrichment.

For example, as far as we know, they're not actually doing any enrichment right now. What they -- what they -- when they announced their breakthrough two months ago, it was a brief 15-day run of the centrifuges. It's possible that they could meet this with a concession of their own. CLANCY: You know, as you look at this, the United States taking a gamble here. We'll have to wait and see what the response is from Tehran. But I'm wondering about the response from Beijing and from Moscow.

The United States wants them on board to say, look, if you don't go along with this, Iran, there's going to be tough sanctions you're going to have to deal with. Thus far, those two parties not willing to go that far.

CIRINCIONE: I'm sure that there are some in Washington who are making this move today with the full expectation that it will never lead to talks, that Iran won't make the concessions it seeks, and that what they really want to do is get Russia and China on board with sanctions. But this is going to be very, very tough.

Remember, when you're talking about sanctions, it would be Russia that would be paying for them. Russia would be giving up its lucrative trade and nuclear technology with Tehran.

China is a major importer of Iranian oil. If there were any sanctions that touched the oil trade -- we're told that's not on the table yet, but if it came to that point, they would suffer very heavily.

So the trick is to try to craft some narrow, targeted sanctions that don't actually hurt either China or Russia too much. For example, restrictions on Iranian foreign travel or foreign bank accounts.

CLANCY: Joseph Cirincione, the Center for American Progress.

As always, I want to thank you very much for lending your expertise.

CIRINCIONE: My pleasure, Jim.

CHURCH: Well, things are looking brighter on Wall Street. For more on the markets, it's over to Valerie Morris in New York.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

CLANCY: We're going to have a roundup of the main stories in just a moment.

CHURCH: We'll do that. Also ahead, the spell is about to be cast when even the coldest of hearts can be warmed by the glow of a television tuned to a World Cup match.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Jim Clancy.

CHURCH: And I'm Rosemary Church. Here are some of the top stories we've been following this hour.

The United States is changing its policy on dealings with Iran. A short time ago, the U.S. secretary of state outlined a plan for Washington to take part in multi-party talks with Iran if Tehran suspends uranium enrichment. The development is significant because the U.S. has had no official direct talks with Iran since 1979.

Afghanistan's parliament calling for the prosecution of U.S. troops involved in Monday's fatal traffic accident there. Some 20 people were killed in the accident, and the rioting that followed. Investigators say they believe gangs exploited the incident. A U.S. military spokesman says after troops were fired upon, they fired in the direction of crowds in self-defense.

Well, the White House says all details of the investigation into an alleged massacre of Iraqis by U.S. troops will be made public. A short time ago, President Bush commented on the controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I am troubled by the initial news stories. I am mindful that there is a thorough investigation going on. If, in fact, the -- you know, laws were broken, there will be punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Sources tell CNN a group of U.S. marines could face murder charges in connection with the killing of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha last November.

The sources say military investigators strongly suspect between four and eight marines went a shooting rampage. One investigation is to determine if the killing of civilians was a criminal act. Sources say investigators have concluded there was a cover-up, but won't say if it's limited to the marines involved.

CLANCY: Some victims who survived the alleged massacre are children who are providing their own chilling accounts of just what happened that day. Ryan Chilcote has that part of the story for us, but we have to warn you, the report does contain images that some of you may find disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHILCOTE (voice-over): There's plenty of evidence civilians were killed in Haditha. Twenty-four bodies were counted. At the morgue, women and children among the dead, many images too graphic to show.

But the dead can't speak. So at CNN's request, a human rights organization went back to Haditha with a camera to interview survivors. The interviewer found three, all children.

For each, the story begins here, where a roadside bomb struck a humvee carrying American marines, killing one of them. It was 7:30 in the morning.

Twelve-year-old Safa Unis (ph) was getting ready for school. She says she was the only survivor in her house. Eight relatives killed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): A bomb exploded on the street outside. We heard the sound of the explosion, and we heard shouting. We were inside the house when U.S. forces broke through the door. They killed my father in the kitchen. The American forces entered the house and started shooting with their guns. They killed my mother and my sister Noor (ph). They killed her when they shot her in the head. She was only 15 years old. My other sister was shot with seven bullets in the head. She was only 10 years old. And my brother, Mohammed (ph), was hiding under the bed when the U.S. military hit him with the butt of a gun, and they started shooting him under the bed. The U.S. military then shot me, and I was showered in blood. We couldn't leave the house because the U.S. military surrounded the area with a large number of soldiers.

CHILCOTE: Safa's cousins, 8-month-old Abdul Rahman Walid (ph) and 9-year-old Aman Walid (ph), were next door in the first house entered by the marines. They say seven were killed in this house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): They entered the house, they burned the room, and my father was inside the room. Then they attacked my grandmother and my grandfather, and they threw a bomb. Me and my brother, Abdul Rahman, were injured. I saw how they killed my mother, Asma (ph).

CHILCOTE: Aman is initially poised. She has clearly told the story many times. She needs no questions to prompt her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My grandmother, she decided to open the kitchen door. Before she opened it, she said, maybe they will break it otherwise. I wish she hadn't.

CHILCOTE: Aman's brother Abdul Rahman doesn't say much. The interviewer asks him to show his wounds. Off camera, a voice in the room is heard asking, he didn't have a weapon, what danger did he pose? But there is an intriguing variation in Aman's account. The third time she tells it, she says she was expecting the bomb.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I was planning to go to school. I was about to get out of bed. I knew the bomb would explode, so I covered my ears. The bomb exploded. The bomb struck an armored vehicle. I don't know if it was a humvee or an armored vehicle. When the bomb exploded, they came straight to our house.

CHILCOTE: The question is, was her expectation of the explosion a premonition, a fear based on the sound of the passing convoy? Or was it based on some knowledge? The interviewer does not follow up. He says the 9-year-old got confused and got her story mixed up. All three children were wounded. Aman and Abdul Rahman were treated at a U.S. hospital in Baghdad. Safa Unis says she wants tough justice for those who killed her family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I want them to be tortured and killed, and I want them to leave our country.

CHILCOTE: The people in these houses were not the only ones to have been killed. Others died in this house, too. But the survivors here did not want to talk.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: Well, as some of the survivors weigh in there, among them must be numbered Corporal James Crossan. He was wounded in the original roadside bombing that is believed to have triggered the entire incident. He talks about what may have pushed his group over the edge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CPL. JAMES CROSSAN, U.S. MARINES: We did have a lot of new guys. Our squad leader was new, our first team leader was new, and we had -- our corpsman was new. And we also had two new other guys in the squad. So they probably got scared or -- I don't know what happened. They might have got scared, or they were just pissed -- really pissed off and did it. But, like, just the person. It just depends on the person. Like after seeing so much death and destruction, pretty soon, you just become numb. And you really don't think about it anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Well, the official investigation into the Haditha killings is not completed yet, but some Iraqis say coalition forces are quick on the trigger at checkpoints or when Iraqis approach their convoys too closely.

John Sifton joins us now from New York as a researcher with Human Rights Watch. Thanks for talking with us. Today in "The New York Times," they cited a senior military official as saying that those killed in the Haditha massacre, as it's being called by some -- it was an unprovoked killing and they say it was gunshot wounds that caused their deaths.

We've already heard from U.S. President George W. Bush. He says he's troubled and wants to see those punished if its found these allegations are true. What about your organization? What sort of concerns has it raised for you and your organization?

JOHN SIFTON, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Well, obviously, these are very serious allegations. But in some ways, the more troubling issue is the aspect of the case involving a coverup, the potential that Marine officers lied about it after it occurred and attempted to cover it up. If that's true, if that's shown to be true, it raises very troubling issues about the military's operating procedure for reporting abuse. We deal with a lot of cases where we talk to veterans who see things out there. There are a lot of veterans serving with distinction, and they see abuses by other military personnel, and they want to report it, and they find it very difficult to do so. That's a big concern for us.

So in many ways, our biggest concern about this case is that the court-martial gets to the bottom of it, but meanwhile, we analyze what's wrong with the military? Can the military police itself or not?

CHURCH: Now, the new Iraqi prime minister has said his patience is wearing thin with the existence -- the conduct of U.S. troops in his country. What does it do for U.S. credibility, these sorts of incidents? And not only these, but some others that we've reported on?

SIFTON: Well, there are killings every day in Iraq by Iraqi groups, by Iraqi sectarian violence. There's militia groups, there's military and police abuses. The reason this is important is because it involves U.S. personnel. Why is it so important that U.S. personnel are not engaged in these types of things? Because if they're going to have any credibility in training the Iraqi military and police forces, then they have to show that they can control their own troops. And this incident, like a few others that we've reported on, raises serious issues about whether the military can control its own troops.

CHURCH: Is it possible that this incident and, indeed, the fallout is going to embolden the insurgents there in Iraq?

SIFTON: Well, one of the most amazing things about this case is the lack of surprise among a lot of Iraqis about these allegations. It didn't spark riots in the streets. It didn't cause any sort of huge amount of surprise among most Iraqis who have been interviewed about this. And I think that's because a lot of Iraqis have already seen abuses by American forces. Many people have relatives or acquaintances they know who have faced checkpoint problems where shooting happens or detainee abuse, and they know that there have been allegations in the past. And that's why this is really not just the Haditha incident; it's about the broader question, can the military police itself or not? Because the record is suggesting that it can't.

CHURCH: All right, John Sifton with Human Rights Watch, thanks for talking with us.

CLANCY: Well still ahead, we'll turn our attention to Asia and the volatile situation in East Timor.

CHURCH: The world's youngest country erupts as Rival gangs fight each other on the streets. A report from the capital, Dili. That's just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Gunfire on the streets of East Timor once again. But more international troops arriving there, trying to stop the violence. Now it all began with sporadic clashes last week between some soldiers who had been dismissed from their jobs, as well as those government troops that remained in their positions.

Now it's spiralled into street warfare, and what are being described as rival gangs fighting each other and destroying property.

Stan Grant reports from the capital, now Dili, where the president declared a state of emergency. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It can happen so quickly here, on the streets of Dili, East Timor. Out of nowhere again, armed on the move and looking for trouble. Things have been very quiet here on the street.

(on camera): Just moments ago, we saw this gang of kids come down from a side street and running up here now. Now, the military have been on the street here, the Australian military, just in case of this type of (INAUDIBLE) and try to stop it.

(voice-over): Within minutes, the soldiers are on the scene. The gang members have weapons and vanish into the streets. The soldiers chase and try to hunt them out. But this is what makes East Timor so dangerous. It is unpredictable, and the gangs can blend into the crowd until the next attack. The Australian soldiers are here to make a difference, and slowly, they say, they are.

REVEREND ADRIANO, CATHOLIC PRIEST: I don't think the worse is over, because there is still some people. There are many people that are still with the arms, with the weapons. So it can happen even any time, at any moment. It will happen. (INAUDIBLE).

GRANT: Father Adrino remembers the battle of independence with Indonesian troops in 1999. This, he says, is worse.

ADRIANO: It's going to be happen that the civil war is going to start. As you can see, yesterday and the day before yesterday, the people are in groups killing each other. They don't care if you are a classmate or you are my friend. They just see that you are from west, I am from east, so let's kill each other.

GRANT: A military and security crisis, a political vacuum, driven by ethnic division and abject poverty. Some say East Timor is fast becoming a failed state, on the brink of civil war.

President Xanana Gusmao has exercised emergency powers, taking full control of the military, but he's resisting calls to sack his prime minister, Mari Alkatiri. Dilly is a burnt-out shell of a city, always one false move away from disaster.

Stan Grant, CNN, Dilly, East Timor.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: All right. Well, still ahead, a World Cup frenzy.

CLANCY: That's right. In the United States, you may not understand all of this, but believe us, the pandemonium extends far and wide.

We're going to have more on this story right after the break. It's a lot of fun. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CLANCY: Independent investigators assigned by the International Cycling Union have exonerated the seven-time Tour De France champion, Lance Armstrong. Last august a French newspaper reported that it had access to laboratory documents as well as urine samples from Armstrong in 1999 that showed, in their words, "indisputable traces of illegal blood-boosting drug EPO."

Well, now a Dutch law firm has found that the World Anti-Doping Agency behaved in ways, in its words, "completely inconsistent with testing rules." Armstrong, who has always denied taking any banned substances, retired after his seventh straight title last July.

CHURCH: And still in sports, final preparations are in full swing for football's ultimate contest. And as Tim Lister reports, it's not just the players who are limbering up for the World Cup.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM LISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meet Aristeu Leonardo Tavares, a colonel in the Brazilian police. He's about to trade in his gun for a flag and leave the streets of Rio for Germany. The Colonel, a 25-year police veteran, is one of three Brazilians who will be match officials at the World Cup.

He's worked his way up through the Brazilian leagues and says the World Cup is the greatest prize for any referee. The Colonel adds he's long since shaken the habit of taking his gun to matches.

The Angolan squad is enjoying a little Italian luxury before heading north. The team may be ranked outsiders at this World Cup, but they're looking forward to the big stage. And they're intent on keeping plenty of memories of Angola's first-ever appearance.

"We won't go into matches with our heads down," says coach Luis Oliveira Goncalves. "If anybody wants to beat us, they'll have to run a lot."

Maybe in the shadows of Mount Vesuvius, the Angolans are planning an upset or two of their own.

A less picturesque scene in Frankfurt as divers plunge into the cold and murky waters or the River Maine. The city government wants debris removed from the river so that Frankfurt can look its best for the World Cup. It's planning to show games on big screens moored in midstream and doesn't want fans to be hurt if they get overexcited and fall in.

And finally, a warning to all those searching out World Cup memorabilia. A lot of it will be fake, cheap imitations of shirts, balls, even lighters and mascots. A conference in Belgium heard that counterfeit soccer goods would cost legitimate businesses tens of millions of dollars. Customs authorities report more than 2,000 seizures of fake World Cup goods.

Tim Lister, CNN, Atlanta

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: Well, apologies to our U.S. viewers. We didn't ask them the "Inbox" question but, well, maybe it matters less for them. It's time to open that "Inbox." We've been asking for your predictions for football's biggest tournaments.

CHURCH: Our question was, who do you think is going to win the World Cup? Well, here's how some of you replied.

Crescent in Rwanda says, "I think Brazil will win the trophy."

CLANCY: John writes from Texas -- well, there were some Americans watching -- "I think Brazil will win this year's World Cup because they have a good, experienced team."

CHURCH: And Brian from Switzerland writes, "No matter what anybody says, no one can know now who will win the World Cup." That's a fair comment. I wouldn't even want to ...

(CROSSTALK)

CLANCY: Who picked those out, somebody from Brazil?

CHURCH: I think so. Brazil will win, it seems.

CLANCY: Well, anyway, now to our weekly segment, "Changing Earth." Saturday's earthquake in Indonesia, one of many natural disasters that have been generated across that region.

CHURCH: Indonesia sits in a seismically active "Ring of Fire" that encircles the Pacific Ocean. Guillermo Arduino joins us now with more on that -- Guillermo.

GUILLERMO ARDUINO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Rosemary, Jim, you know, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis and 81 percent of the world's largest earthquakes occur in and around the Pacific Ocean. The rim has been adequately named the "Ring of Fire" because of the violent volcanic and earthquake activity.

Indonesia and other South Pacific nations are at the most at risk for severe earthquakes because tectonic plates many kilometers underneath the Pacific Rim are very unstable. Japan, Alaska and the United States' Pacific Northwest all sit along the Pacific Rim.

Geologists believe that subduction zones beneath the earth's surface are constantly active around these areas. When one tectonic plate slides underneath another, it can create a quake as powerful as 9.0 on the Richter Scale. A movement of that magnitude also has the potential to trigger a massive tsunami or volcanic eruption.

Now, let's put things into visual perspective. The red dots indicate known volcanoes around the world, and the yellow lines are the boundaries of the earth's surface plates. And this may explain why great disasters like the 1995 Kobe earthquake and the 2004 tsunami continue to strike in and around the Pacific Rim, a very hot area that's been in the news for a long time. CHURCH: And predictions, it's just not possible. Thanks so much.

ARDUINO: Thank you.

CHURCH: All right. That's it for this hour.

CLANCY: "LIVE FROM" is up next for our viewers in the United States.

CHURCH: And for our viewers elsewhere, another hour of YOUR WORLD TODAY is coming up. I'm Rosemary Church.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy, and this is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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