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Nancy Grace

Breaking News in Clemson Bikini Murder

Aired June 01, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the Clemson bikini murder. Police announce they have a potential suspect in their sights based on a grainy photo of the man and his car. It is being enhanced by experts as we speak, and we are waiting tonight for its release. And also tonight, new DNA and rape test results due tomorrow, police now retracing the final steps of 20-year-old Clemson student Tiffany Souers before she was strangled with a bikini top.
And tonight, the ACLU -- that`s right, the American Civil Liberties Union -- they`re at it again. Tonight, they`re suing on behalf of child sex predators. Why? The predators want access to playgrounds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the ACLU wants to sue us over trying to protect kids, let them sue us. I really don`t care. I say, bring it on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, sex offenders go to court to gain access to playgrounds, to swimming pools, to sports fields, exactly where children would be. Why? I guess the predators want to ride the merry-go- round. No way! You`re in for a fight, buddy!

But first tonight, breaking news in the bikini murder mystery, investigators set to release photos of the man they believe may have strangled 20-year-old Clemson engineering student Tiffany Souers, strangled with her own bikini top. And tonight, the 20-year-old co-ed is laid to rest in her hometown back home in Missouri. Tonight, we are taking your calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tiffany was really great. Everybody that knew her, you know, really loved her. She went as far to learn sign language so she could teach deaf children. She did as much as 500 hours of community service a month. This was a remarkable young woman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very smart, very pretty, very wonderful person to be around, a lot of fun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sure she`s at peace and happy (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to investigative reporter Leslie Snadowsky. Leslie, here are the updates that I`ve got questions about. We know police have a potential suspect in the murder in their sights. They`ve got them in the crosshairs. They`ve got a photo, a grainy photo they say has the man in it, along with his car. Leslie, it`s got to be an ATM picture or possibly a -- a gas station photo. What do you think?

LESLIE SNADOWSKY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s got to be some sort of surveillance picture. Otherwise, you know, if it was a classmate, maybe they would have gone for a composite picture and a fraternity, you know, composite picture or maybe, like, a yearbook photo. But I think you`re a 100 percent right. I think it`s grainy. They`ve actually given it to SLED, the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division. They`re trying to enhance it, and it will be released tomorrow, along with a picture of his truck.

GRACE: But if it were, for instance, a yearbook photo, why would his truck be in it? And how could they relate that back to the murder?

SNADOWSKY: No, what I`m saying is I think you`re right in terms of the photo being a Surveillance-type picture. Otherwise, if it was a student they were thinking of, they`d probably be able to go -- you know, to get a better picture in a yearbook, if they can identify them. But I think you`re right. I think it`s, like, a surveillance-type picture, maybe something at the Reserve (ph), the apartment complex where she was killed, or maybe at the gas station, like you suggested.

GRACE: Take a listen to what prosecutors had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When this comes out, we want it to be in such a fashion that it`s going to be a rush, and this is going to be something that`s going to be quick because we do believe this person is still in the area. He is a likely suspect. He is more than a person of interest.

When the photograph is properly enhanced to where we can show it to anybody. And that`s what`s happening now, is that photograph is being enhanced. This is not going to be posed and it`s not going to be the highest quality photograph, but through the ability of SLED to enhance the quality of this photograph, we`re going to be able to at least release something that`ll give you an idea of what this person looks like, his size, et cetera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Don Clark, the former head of the FBI there in Houston. Don, thank you for being with us. Let`s talk about photo enhancement. They`re saying they`ve a photo of his car, they`ve got a photo of him.

We are talking about the man that potentially will be proven to have strangled a 20-year-old girl, found essentially nude in her own apartment, strangled with a bikini top. What an individual goes through when they are strangled is incredibly painful. This is a girl who, by all accounts, was beautiful on the inside and the outside, finishing her civil engineering degree in four years -- that was her plan, as opposed to the usual five years -- donating literally hundreds of hours to charity work, in fact, there studying over the summer to become an engineer.

Don Clark, tell us about enhancement of photos. And where do you think they got this photo?

DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Well, Nancy, I think -- they have the technology now to do a lot of things with photographs and really, really enhance them so that they can see the quality of the picture and identify who the person may be. It could have come from an ATM, I would suggest that probably from an ATM machine.

But also, around these apartment complexes, as well, there are number of cameras that are around, cameras that we don`t even know where they`re all placed. And it is likely that the photograph could have come from one of those cameras around that apartment complex in that area, which is somewhat of an affluent area that she lives in. So I think the police probably got it from that particular area.

But they are doing, Nancy, a super job and really working on the crime scene, really trying to figure out...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Don Clark -- everybody, Don`s a former head of the FBI Houston bureau. Before we start patting ourselves on the back, let`s get the suspect first. Can we just -- please don`t jinx it, all right? I know you feds always think you got the cat in the bag. Let`s just wait until we have somebody behind bars and we get a DNA match or something like that. Then we can gloat.

CLARK: But Nancy, they`re not groping.

GRACE: But I want to...

CLARK: They`re not groping. But they are doing a good job with this.

GRACE: It`s you. Your the one I`m talking about! Hey, Don, I want you to explain to us how a photo -- and I think it may be more along the lines of not just an ATM photo, but they`ve got the car too. And very often, to get a car in an ATM photo is going to be difficult. I`m thinking maybe a gas station or something, where he may have used her credit card. We`ve been trying to find out all day, were credit cards or ATM cards taken. Let`s think about it a moment. Let`s use our heads here. If he took an ATM card, Don, unless she had her code on the back of it, what good is it? But a gas card or something like that, now, that`s a whole different ball of wax.

Tell us, how do they actually enhance the photo?

CLARK: Well, actually, you know, you can take this from -- it may have come from an ATM machine because the ATM machine is just not taking the picture as you put your card in and stand right there, especially if it`s a drive-through. If it`s a drive-through type of an ATM machine, then you`ve got a camera that`s on the outside that`s getting the picture of the car. So that`s another likelihood how they could have gotten that.

And then once they get that film, obviously, it`s going to be somewhat grainy. And the processes that they can go through to remove that graininess and really bring it out clearer and clearer, they can do that. I`m not the technocrat who knows all the details...

GRACE: But Don...

CLARK: ... but I certainly had enough of them done.

GRACE: I mean, in a rudimentary fashion, isn`t it the way that -- at the -- let me say pharmacy, you leave your photos, and they can actually enhance the quality, and you get them back from the developer in much better condition than they normally would be? They can make them darker or lighter. They can change them, enhance them to make you to be able to see what you`re looking at, the center of the photo much better. It`s, of course, a lot -- in a lot more detail than that. But that`s essentially how they do it.

CLARK: Well, they`ve got a piece of equipment. And you can walk into most pharmacies right now and do this yourself. It`s all computerized, and you can click and click until you can get it the way that you want it. And you go in these laboratories, in these police laboratories, particularly state police, that`s got pretty good laboratories, they have this technology. It`s the same simple technology, where they take the photograph that they`ve got, put it into a piece of equipment, and with using a computer -- a mouse to click, they can expand, expand, retract, retract, and remove all of the dullness and all the fuzziness from these photographs. And you can identify the person or object.

GRACE: And you know, another thing, very quickly, on this enhancement, is that we have had a lot of cases where -- in fact, in the Carlie Brucia case, NASA actually helped enhance the photo beyond what law enforcement can do. So it is very possible to get a clear picture of this suspect.

And to you, Renee Rockwell. Somebody`s in hot water tonight because this guy went out on a limb and he said, Oh, no, they`re not a person of interest. They`re a suspect.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s a suspect. But Nancy, doesn`t sound like they know where this guy is, just maybe what he looks like, what he`s driving. Nancy, they can enhance to see what kind of watch he may have had on, whether he had a wedding ring, a class ring. So it looks like they`re about to produce this picture to the nation for some help.

GRACE: Well, another thing, if they`ve got a photo of the car, obviously, they can get the car tag number. A lot can be had. Take a listen to what prosecution had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we develop a DNA profile from someone that`s a perpetrator and it matches any type of body fluid or tissue we find at a crime scene, that`s a pretty strong connection. It`s not an absolute indicator of guilt, by any means, but it is certainly a strong connection, and it puts somebody there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Interesting. Talking about being present at the crime scene.

Out to WHNS-TV reporter Lidia St. Mark. Welcome, Lidia. Lidia, from what you are hearing there on the scene, where are they getting the photo?

LIDIA ST. MARK, WHNS-TV: They`re not telling us where they`re getting the photo. All they`re telling us is that it came from some sort of candid transaction. Now, that could be, like we were saying, an ATM. It could be a gas station. It could be at the grocery store. We don`t know. It`s some sort of candid picture of him doing a transaction that they`re saying is directly -- is somehow connected to Tiffany Souers.

GRACE: Lidia, were any of her ATMs or credit cards taken?

ST. MARK: I just know that at yesterday`s press conference, they said they took everything -- they`re taking everything in, from the dumpster to her cell phone records to her computer. So I`m assuming her ATM records, you name it, they took it into custody.

GRACE: I understand that we are on the verge of getting the rape kit and the DNA test back. When do we get those?

ST. MARK: Well, yesterday, they told us that we`d be getting them back today. He said at today`s press conference that everything, the DNA evidence is still being processed. So we might be getting that as early as tomorrow. They`re hoping that -- because right now, they don`t have a DNA sample of this alleged suspect, so maybe they do have a DNA sample now, and then once they capture this suspect, you know, you put the two together, and bam, you`ve got your guy.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Elizabeth. Let`s go to Jason in Minnesota. Hi, Jason.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Nancy. I was wondering -- I`ve been following this case here. Have they put the two other homicides together? I mean, is there any connection with that?

GRACE: You know what? Very, very clever. Let`s go to our producer, Clark Goldband. This isn`t the first Clemson University co-ed to go missing, be found dead, unsolved.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: You`re absolutely correct, Nancy. And in answer first -- let`s answer that question. Cops have said this afternoon at that press conference that they do not think this person who`s involved in these two...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait, let`s put A before Z.

GOLDBAND: You got it!

GRACE: Tell me about the other murders.

GOLDBAND: OK, it`s Stacy Brooke Holsonback is the first girl. Happened nine years ago, in 1997. Her and two friends went out in the Jeep, driving through mud. I believe it`s an activity in college towns. So the Jeep gets stuck, and the friends say, you know, It`s your fault. It`s your fault. They`re arguing. She gets out of the Jeep. She says, You know what? Forget it. I`m going to go walk home. That`s the last that we ever heard of her. She was found the next day, somewhere in a lake. Here`s the kicker -- strangled.

GRACE: OK, couple of questions.

GOLDBAND: Yes.

GRACE: Was she a Clemson student?

GOLDBAND: She was a Clemson student. She was a freshman.

GRACE: Age.

GOLDBAND: Eighteen years old.

GRACE: Mode of death.

GOLDBAND: Strangulation.

GRACE: Was it solved?

GOLDBAND: We don`t know.

GRACE: Well, if it were solved, wouldn`t we know who the perpetrator is?

GOLDBAND: Oh, I`m sorry. I thought you said, Was it a soft strangulation? No, it is not solved. It is unsolved.

GRACE: Was she assaulted?

GOLDBAND: We don`t know.

GRACE: OK. Victim two.

GOLDBAND: Victim two -- she`s a little older. She was a graduate student there at Clemson University.

GRACE: At Clemson.

GOLDBAND: That`s right, Nancy. Norsaadah Husain. This was back in 1992. She was less than a mile away from where Souers was. She doing her laundry at a laundromat, abducted at the laundromat, subsequently killed and found three months latter. Stabbing, though, was that mode of death.

GRACE: Norsaadah.

GOLDBAND: Exactly.

GRACE: Unsolved.

GOLDBAND: Still unsolved to this day.

GRACE: But the authorities say they are not linked.

GOLDBAND: Right. They`re not linked because they think the perp in this case is too young to have hurt anyone in those two cases.

GRACE: Hold on. To Lidia St. Mark with WHNS-TV. The police have actually come out and said that the perp they suspect in Tiffany`s case is too young to have committed the others?

ST. MARK: That`s exactly what he said. These two murders, one is 15 years old, the other is 9 years old, so he said this suspect is way too young to have committed any of those two. So we know he`s not -- hopefully, he`s not a serial killer, but they`re definitely ruling out him being connected to those other two. We also asked if he was a student at the press conference, and he couldn`t comment on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Great girl, brilliant, very smart, very pretty, very wonderful person to be around, a lot fun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was out and dropped off, and that`s the last pretty much anyone heard or known (ph).

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a likely suspect. He`s more than a person of interest. The photograph with the profile and with the (INAUDIBLE) should be strongly identifying characteristics that anybody familiar with this person, putting the three together, ought to be able to render some assistance. We`re going to be able to at least release something that`ll give you an idea of what this person looks like, his size, et cetera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Breaking development tonight in the case of a Clemson University student, 20-year-old Tiffany Souers found strangled to death in her own apartment, the murder weapon her bikini top. Today, police announce they have a suspect in the crosshairs, based on a photo, a photo, a grainy photo, they say, of a young man and a car, that to be released ASAP. It is being enhanced as we speak right now.

Let`s go to the phones, Elizabeth. Genae in Ohio. Hi, Genae.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That (INAUDIBLE) did over 500 hours a month in community service?

GRACE: I don`t know if it was a month, but I know she had done over 500 hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. That -- I know that I work over 50 hours a week. That would mean that that poor girl would have to do over 100 hours a week in community service. Did she live somewhere to do that service, other than her apartment?

GRACE: She lived in her own apartment that she had been sharing with roommates. But the 500 hours was not done in a single month. Is that your question? Yes, no, maybe? Liz, have we lost the caller? OK. The 500 hours was not done in a single month. This girl was also -- you`re seeing footage right now of her funeral back home in Missouri. The 500 hours was compiled over a period of time while she went to school full-time, as well, there at Clemson in civil engineering.

Let`s go to Jason in North Carolina. Jason?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a criminal justice student here in North Carolina, and I just had a theory that I haven`t heard thrown out there at all. And I didn`t hear of any defensive wounds or a forced entry. I`m wondering if this might have been consensual sex that maybe went too far.

GRACE: You know what? I`ve already been approached with that question a couple of times.

Let`s go to Dr. Joseph Deltito, professor of psychiatry at New York Medical College. Doctor, just rhetorically, why is it when a woman is murdered and usually raped, the first thing everybody wants to know is, Was it rough sex? Why is that?

JOSEPH DELTITO, PROF. OF PSYCHIATRY: Well, because it is a possibility...

GRACE: It`s a remote possibility!

DELTITO: But I agree, it`s a remote possibility, but it is a possibility that...

GRACE: Why does everybody...

DELTITO: ... that certain things...

GRACE: ... want to talk about rough sex? After Jennifer Levy (ph), murdered in the park by Robert Chambers, that was the defense. The victim...

(CROSSTALK)

DELTITO: We have the defense attorneys in this country for getting this into the public consciousness to become a sort of cultural icon of what one thinks in these situations. So it is something that does happen. I agree with you, it`s very rare, and it`s more likely that someone, you know, wanted her dead and killed her purposefully.

GRACE: And my second question to Dr. Deltito is, Why does everybody - - and I would also like to point out they`re usually men, no offense to Jason, North Carolina. Why is it men that always want to know, Do you think it was rough sex that went too far?

DELTITO: I`m not sure that men want to know that more than women.

GRACE: Yes? Every time I`m asked the question anecdotally, Doctor, it`s always a man. The answer is, it was rough sex that went too far.

DELTITO: Well, maybe there are too many men that are too impressed with their own potency and prowess that they think that they can kill these women inadvertently without meaning to, or something like that. Maybe there`s...

GRACE: I guess the theory is...

DELTITO: Or racial idea...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... so carried away with the sex act, she just forgot she was being strangled!

I`ve got with me right here a rape kit, the type of rape kit used in practically every rape case across the country, when there`s a sex assault case. And I wanted to show you how this thing works. First of all, I`ve opened it, but it`s typically sealed on every side. And it`s filled out on the front. It comes on every kit. It`s opened, the inside, the contents are also sealed until the time it`s used. I`ve opened this one. But everything is -- is already laid out, so there can be no transference of DNA. There can be no mistakes with the rape kit.

You have oral swabs and smears. And we talk about them here all the time, and I wanted you to actually see how they work. Everything, again, is secured so it can`t be subjected to anyone else`s DNA.

As I mentioned before, it`s like a Q-tip, except longer. This is the oral swab. This is placed in the mouth. It`s very quick. It goes along the inside of your mouth. And then it is rubbed on this -- hold on. Let me get it for you -- on this glass, rubbed here, rubbed on the second glass, placed in, sealed, and then put away. The same thing is done with debris taken off the body, dried secretion and bite marks, fingernail scrapings, as well, pubic hair combings, and so on. That is what we are waiting on in the Clemson University bikini murder mystery.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We heard from her parents that she went as far as to learn sign language so she could teach deaf children. She did as much as 500 hours of community service a month. This was a remarkable young woman, almost like -- almost too good to be true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, breaking developments out of the Clemson University bikini murder mystery. Police announce they have a photo of the suspect, a grainy photo. And we are waiting on the return of the rape kit.

Let`s go to a special guest tonight. Dr. E. Rackley Ivey, forensic scientist. Dr. Ivey, question. Would a rape kit be performed any differently on a deceased victim?

E. RACKLEY IVEY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: It should be performed basically the same. The difference might that you would have less opportunity for any material to be taken away by moving the body to somewhere else.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a ligature strangulation with an article of clothing that has been defined as the top of a bikini. This was a tightly woven and tightly tied article of clothing that, you know, had to be placed there by some manual means; this was not done by hand strangulation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone.

We know that this girl, Tiffany Souers, a 20-year-old Clemson student, was found about a week ago around 1:45 in the afternoon Friday. In one week, is it possible that police, several law enforcement arms joined together have solved the case?

We are waiting for the return of the rape kit in the DNA profile. And police have announced that they have in their sights a suspect.

Let`s go out to Lidia St. Mark, reporter with WHNS. Lidia, a lot of talk about the possibility of rough sex. Now, everybody always ends it right there. They forgot to add "and murder," OK?

What is your take on that? You`re there on the scene.

ST. MARK: I`m here on the scene. I`m not an expert, but this girl lived on the bottom floor. It was a four-bedroom apartment. Just because there was no forced entry doesn`t mean someone wasn`t waiting in there for her.

We know that she was dropped off from the corner and her friends, that she was dropped off at 11:30 at night. Then they told us at the press conference that they knew she was alive around 12:00 midnight, so she must have talked to somebody on the phone or e-mail, and then they think she died at 1:00 in the morning.

So you were telling me she was on the phone with someone, possibly her mother, and she never told her mom, "Hey, Mom, I`m with a guy right now," and then she was killed within that hour. I find it hard to believe.

Then again, I`m not an expert, but I just don`t think -- I don`t think that`s it.

GRACE: But Lidia St. Mark with WHNS is reasoning just the way someone on a jury would.

Let`s take it to Alex Sanchez, defense attorney. Alex, I`m sure that you`ve already devised a defense in your mind for the perpetrator. Where does rough sex as the defense play in?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think rough sex -- to be honest with you, I don`t think it has anything to do with this case.

GRACE: I don`t either.

SANCHEZ: If any attorney walks into court and attempts to argue that this death is a result of rough sex, they should be brought up on some type of malpractice charges. This is a beautiful girl.

GRACE: Yes, tell Robert Chambers` lawyer that.

SANCHEZ: Beautiful girl that was murdered, and this business about rough sex, at this point, sounds like utter nonsense.

GRACE: I`ve got a question, Alex, Alex Sanchez, veteran trial lawyer, why wait to release the photos of the suspect and the vehicle?

SANCHEZ: I think simply because of the reasons that were given by the police. They`re trying to enhance the photographs.

But I bet you also that they`re trying to determine who the owner of that Jeep is. Maybe there`s a photograph of the license plate somewhere or maybe there`s some other photographs that were taken in the area somewhere else, at another local stop, or shop, or at a bank. And if they get the identity of the individual that owns the car, they`ve got their man.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines. Deb in South Carolina. Hi, Deb.

CALLER: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, I`m 30 miles from Clemson university. I`m a rape survivor, as well. And my question to you is: What are the odds and the chances of them finding this criminal that did this to me and several other girls?

And I saw the statistics on your show, the people that have been raped that don`t report it and the women who do. Is there a chance that he`ll be caught?

GRACE: You mean, the perpetrator in your case?

CALLER: My case. And, obviously, I`m more concerned about this little girl`s case right now.

GRACE: Well, I can tell you right now that the likelihood of them catching the perp in Tiffany Souers case seems to be pretty good. I don`t know enough facts about your case, although having dealt with many, many rape victims, I want to tell you my heart goes out to you, and thank you for calling us, Deb in South Carolina.

As far as Tiffany goes, to Renee Rockwell, investigators say that they are focusing on the immediate area around Clemson. Back to Deb`s question, to me that even narrows down the playing field as to who the perp is.

ROCKWELL: And, Nancy, she lived in an apartment that was joined by a parking lot that was right next to a construction site. So they may have somebody, and the reason might be that they`re not releasing the photographs is they`re probably trying to find out who this guy is. If they release the photograph, he sees himself, he`s gone.

GRACE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. But, you know, Renee, how many times, when I was prosecuting, you defending, did somebody go on the run? And where do they run? Across town to their aunt`s house. I mean, where are they going to go?

ROCKWELL: And they always -- and a good time to look for them is on Christmas, or New Year`s, or Valentine`s, or Easter.

GRACE: Oh, no, no, no, Ms. Rockwell. No, don`t make we wait until Christmas to get this guy. Don`t even say that. Don`t even bring that back up again.

ROCKWELL: Or at their mother`s house. They don`t go far. Unfortunately, sometimes, just with the manpower, they can`t always get these guys, and they repeat their offenses.

GRACE: And, very quickly, also to Renee Rockwell. Police are saying that perpetrators are typically local and hang out in the area where the crime occurs.

And I don`t know if you`ll recall, but I have argued to many a jury: People covet what they see. So I find it very difficult to believe that this perpetrator has come in from another state, happened to be driving by, and suddenly decide to molest and/or kill this girl.

This is somebody that saw her that night, that knew her, whether she knew them or not.

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, you can`t exclude the fact that it might be a random event. But it could be, like you said, a guy that`s had his eye on her, somebody that maybe she was nice to, that maybe she befriended, who thought maybe was coming onto him. God forbid, if it`s somebody like an ex-boyfriend who was upset. You just can`t exclude anybody at this point.

GRACE: Well, right now, it`s my understanding they have spoken to and cleared any ex-boyfriends.

Let`s go to the lines. Val in Michigan. Hi, Val.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. The question I had was: My daughter`s going to be a freshman and go away to college for the first time. And we`re from a small town with little crime. And I just want to know what -- some tips, you know, they can watch out so that this kind of thing does not happen?

GRACE: Well, here are a few, just off the top of my head. Number one, for freshmen, I would advise living in a dorm, in a supervised situation. You`re always safer off a bottom floor.

Always, as a girl, as a young girl going to college, always try to travel with other people, other of your girlfriends. Never leave for an extended period of time without telling somebody, even if it`s just a message, where you`re going.

If you`re going jogging or exercising, always carry with you, even if it`s stuck down in your jogging bra, a cell phone. Also, always take identification, always.

I`m a jogger. And when I go jog in an unknown location, I always have with me I.D. and the number of where I`m staying, so those are just a few tips for her and the obvious.

I`ve learned that, in this place, the Reserve apartments, they`re pretty nice. There was a very relaxed attitude; a lot of people did not lock their windows and doors. Rule number one, Deb, and that`s just off the top of my head.

And I wish your little girl a lot of luck in her endeavors.

I want to go back Dr. E. Rackley Ivey, M.D. and forensic scientist. Dr. Ivey, let`s talk about what you would expect to find on a body if they had been assaulted?

IVEY: Well, if they`d been assaulted, physically, sexually or not, you would expect to find some kind of contact, exchange, tissue from the assailant. It could be saliva; it could be blood; it could be body fluid. If he had a cold and his nose may have dripped; sexual contact, certainly would be expected, if there was sexual assault or sexual products.

You`re looking for human material with genetic material to find out who was there. If the indications are that there is a reason for this material to be there, then you might exclude this person. But if there`s no reason for this material to be there, other than at the time of the assault...

GRACE: Exactly.

IVEY: ... you`re looking for a suspect.

GRACE: And, also, the body doesn`t have to show bruises to prove that a rape or an assault occurred.

IVEY: That`s correct.

GRACE: Joining us right now, a special guest, Ashley Summers, a neighbor of Tiffany`s. She lived adjacent to Tiffany.

Welcome, Ashley. Thank you for being with us. Right now, Tiffany is just a name and a statistic to a lot of people, and I don`t like that. I want to hear about Tiffany, and I want to hear what everyone is saying there at the Reserve.

ASHLEY SUMMERS, NEIGHBOR OF TIFFANY SOUERS: Well, I personally didn`t know Tiffany. I mean, I lived in a building next to her, so, I mean, the whole sphere of the unknown exists. So I can`t really tell you too much about Tiffany except what`s on the news.

GRACE: Tell me about the way that the Reserve is set up; where were the windows in her apartment?

SUMMERS: Well, she lived on the terrace floor, which is below the first floor, and only has one side of an entrance with stairs on the side. And, basically, it`s right there, like, standing level, so it`s easy to access, I would say.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Believe it or not, the ACLU is now representing convicted sex offenders who want access to playgrounds. Why? Do they want to ride on the merry-go-round? I don`t understand it.

Out to Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. Please explain.

SNADOWSKY: Well, six sex offenders are basically suing Indianapolis, saying that their constitutional rights are being violated because an ordinance was just passed.

GRACE: Oh, I`m sorry. I`ve got the Constitution right here in my pocketbook. I carry it with me at all times. It`s a pocket Constitution. And I don`t see anywhere in there the right to ride the merry-go-round. Where is that?

SNADOWSKY: Well, this is the 14th Amendment they`re talking about, basically. And I actually have my copy, too. "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens," basically depriving any person of life, liberty or property without the process of law.

This ordinance basically says that these sex offenders can`t come within a 1,000 feet of parks, pools, and playgrounds, basically anywhere that kids hang out. And the ACLU of Indiana is saying, "Well, wait a minute, this isn`t fair, because in Indianapolis you really can`t walk around without being within 1,000 feet."

GRACE: You can`t walk around playgrounds, and parks, and swimming pools?

SNADOWSKY: Oh, well they`re saying, because there are so many recreational areas within, like, this 1,000-foot ordinance.

GRACE: OK, so would you repeat that? I`m sorry; I couldn`t hear you.

SNADOWSKY: Sure. Basically, they`re saying that these people can`t come within a 1,000 feet of areas where kids congregate. And a lot of these -- well, the six sexual offenders are suing Indianapolis, and they`re making this a class action. Other people fall in this category are saying, well, you know, maybe they can`t go to work now because where they work happen to be near a playground. Two of these six sex offenders actually are dads, and they`re saying...

GRACE: A thousand feet is not that far, Leslie. That`s just simply not that much. Take a listen to this, Les.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You never know when your child might get snatched from you. You never know when you might not see your child again. They don`t need to be at this park. They don`t need to be at no park around no kids, period.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, if the ICLU wants to sue us over trying to protect kids, let them sue us. I really don`t care. I say bring it on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go out to Melina Kennedy, the former deputy mayor there in Indianapolis. She helped propose and pass this ordinance. Why, why, Melina?

MELINA KENNEDY, FMR. DEPUTY MAYOR: Nancy, thanks for having me on your show. I guess I got to tell you that, in my wildest dreams, I didn`t think this could be this much of a controversy.

As you probably have heard, lots of ideas from people about what they might want to do to sex offenders, especially those who commit crimes against children. And, you know, prohibiting them from being in parks doesn`t sound like a big deal to me.

At the end the day, this came about because we`ve heard from parents and people in Indianapolis who are concerned that registered sex offenders continually hang out in the play areas of their parks looking for the next child, and that`s not acceptable.

So I don`t think it`s a big deal. You know, it`s not as extreme as some of the other measures I`ve heard proposed, and I`m sure you know what I mean.

GRACE: Renee Rockwell, 1,000 feet? That`s just a little over a football field.

ROCKWELL: No, Nancy. That`s three football fields, and it`s way too far. You`ve got people...

GRACE: I said a little over.

ROCKWELL: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

But, Nancy, here`s the problem. And you know that I`m...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, I can`t wait to hear the problem. Go ahead. The problem for who, the children?

ROCKWELL: The problem is that it`s vague; it`s too far. Now, somebody can come to the park as long as there`s another adult with them that`s not also required to register as a sex offender, so that`s a little bit vague and complicated.

But here`s what happens. You may have a sex offender that served his time, done perfectly on probation, and now is working three football fields away from a church, a place that he may want to vote, a playground. What if he`s still driving to work?

GRACE: You know what, Renee? I don`t know about you, but I voted absentee for the last 10 years. So the voting thing, no.

Plus, convicted felons very often have already lost their right to vote. You know what? The stereotype of the child molester out at a playground or a park going, "Come here, little kid," is not entirely unfounded.

What about it, Clark Goldband?

GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, we have -- there were so many to highlight, and here are just a few. I don`t want you to think these are the only ones. And look who shows up first. He`s on every list we have, Joseph Edward Duncan, before he abducted, accused of Shasta and Dylan Groene, and murdering.

GRACE: And this is a guy, Joseph Duncan, everyone, who is now facing trial for the gruesome murders of the entire Groene family and little Dylan.

GOLDBAND: Right, but he`s hanging out in playgrounds.

GRACE: No, it is the court transcript. I read it myself, where this guy had already been accused of going to a playground and trying to videotape and photo little boys with their pants down.

GOLDBAND: And it was just one year before.

GRACE: OK, who`s this guy?

GRACE: Well, Westley Dodd. He`s accused of killing three kids, found guilty on all three. One of them he lured from a playground.

And finally, Mr. Michael Blair (ph). The girl was just a few years old. He lured her, sodomized her, and then killed her from a playground. These guys were all accused, by the way.

GRACE: To Dawn Robertson, she is the founder of FACES, Family and Children Exploited Sexually. She is against this ordinance. Why?

DAWN ROBERTSON, FOUNDER, FACES: Thank you, Nancy, for having me. And I`ll tell you the reason why is because we don`t have a distinction between what is a pedophile and what is a sex offender. And there is different classes and levels, if you will, of offenses that we really need to look at.

In our case, we started our organization three years ago as a result of my son at the age of 14 being arrested as a child molester, which in Indiana there is no minimum age for the perpetrator if the child is under the age of 14. So we have a real problem with that.

GRACE: OK, hold on, question: If Melina Kennedy was able to tailor this to specifically state what type of sex offender or predator they`re talking about, would that ease your mind?

ROBERTSON: I`m not really sure about that. I`ve given...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So you just don`t want this, period?

ROBERTSON: Well, I think that we run into some problems when we`re restricting the freedoms of individuals, you know, groups or classes of people. And I think...

GRACE: Well, we do that all of the time. We put people behind bars. We do that to protect the innocent. Is there a problem with that?

ROBERTSON: No. And I think, if we really are worried about the serious predators, we need to either put them in prison for life or give them civil commitments.

GRACE: Do you really mean that? You really think people like your son should be put behind bars for life?

ROBERTSON: No, absolutely not. I`m talking about something entirely different.

GRACE: Oh, somebody else, with other...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTSON: With the adults. With the adults.

GRACE: Right.

ROBERTSON: Right. Children shouldn`t be arrested at all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We come out here, and I`m with her, and I`m making sure that, you know, the surroundings are safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: See those children? Now imagine them with a sex predator, a convicted sex predator within feet of the playground, staring at them. Not a good picture. Not a good scenario at all.

But in Indianapolis, the ACLU is fighting for the rights of sex offenders, convicted child sex offenders to go to playgrounds, to swimming pools, to sports fields, you name it.

I want to go to a special guest. Alison Arngrim with National Association to Protect Children. You may know her as Nelly on "Little House on the Prairie." All those rages she was having on air, because she had been a child sex molestation victim.

So, what do they want, to play on the swing set, Nelly?

ALISON ARNGRIM, MOLESTATION VICTIM: Well, what you`ve got here is a common problem we see a lot, where we`re trying to put a Band-Aid on a shotgun wound.

The problem with this situation and why you`re now stuck with the ACLU suing is it`s an ordinance; it`s not a law. You`ve got these registered sex offenders who, frankly, most of whom should still be in prison, but you don`t have them on parole. What you actually need are laws that demand lifetime parole, so they`re actually on probation.

GRACE: Hold on, hold on. Kicker in the law. Alison, there in that jurisdiction, a lot of the sex offenders, child sex offenders, get lifetime parole.

ARNGRIM: That`s what you need.

GRACE: But to me, that doesn`t -- to me, that does not address the issue of them going around children.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Just like stock brokers that embezzle, they can never be stock brokers again. Why should these people get to be on playgrounds?

ARNGRIM: See, there is lifetime parole and containment teams that have even been doing this in Illinois. If they`re on parole, you have the legal leeway to put enormous restrictions on them. But when they`re not on parole or not on probation, they`re just registered, they`re on a list, this means you get stuck playing tag with the ACLU all day.

GRACE: Well, the fight is on in Indianapolis, and I hope that Dawn Robertson and Melina Kennedy will join us again.

Let`s stop to remember tonight Marine Corporal Scott J. Procopio, 20, Saugus, Massachusetts, killed, Iraq. Procopio remembered as a natural born leader who motivated friends and comrades. Scott J. Procopio, an American hero.

Thank you to my guests. And thank you to you for being with us, inviting us into your home. I`m Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. I hope to see you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until then, good night, friend.

END