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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Can Prison Reform?

Aired June 9, 2006 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, prison can it reform as well as punish? This week convicted killers inside San Quentin told me they deserve a second chance. Now it's the victims families' turn. What do they think?
We'll hear from Marc Klaas, his daughter Polly brutally murdered by Richard Allen Davis now on San Quentin's death row.

We'll hear from Erin Runnion, her little girl Samantha killed by another San Quentin death row inmate.

Peter Zazzara, his parents murdered by the notorious night stalker Richard Ramirez.

And, we'll talk with the father of murdered police officer Billy Bean, shot to death by a parole violator; plus, the amazing story of a woman who went to prison to meet her pregnant daughter's killer and forgave him.

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Hi. Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. This past Tuesday and Wednesday we took you inside California's notorious San Quentin, heard from a group of prisoners and former prisoners. They say that their time behind bars changed them and they're ready for a normal crime-free life on the outside.

Is justice served by keeping them behind bars the rest of their lives; tonight the flipside of the issue the families of victims of criminals and their thoughts on crime and punishment and rehabilitation.

With us here in Los Angeles, Francis and Carol Carrington, their daughter Carol Sund, their granddaughter Julie, and Sovina (ph) a foreign exchange student they were hosting were murdered during a sightseeing trip to Yosemite.

Gary Stayner, the man convicted of that murder is on death row at San Quentin. In the aftermath of that tragedy their family suffered, Francis and Carol set up the Carol Sund Carrington Memorial Reward Foundation.

Erin Runnion, we all know and love Erin Runnion, her 5-year-old daughter Samantha abducted and murdered in July of 2002. Alejandro Avila was convicted of the kidnap killing in 2005. He's on death row in San Quentin. In response to her daughter's tragic loss, Erin established the Joyful Child Foundation.

In Sacramento is Billy Bean, Sr. His son, Sacramento Police Officer Billy Bean, Jr. was killed as he approached a car driven by a parolee accused of violating his parole. He attends monthly State Board of Prison and Rehabilitation. He's on the executive committee of the Crime Victims United of California.

Marc Klaas is in San Francisco, his daughter Polly Klaas kidnapped from her own bedroom, molested and murdered, Richard Allen Davis convicted of that murder, sentenced to die. He's at San Quentin.

And, in Boston, Dr. Keith Ablow, a forensic psychiatrist, frequent contributor to "The New York Times," host of the upcoming syndicated Dr. Keith Ablow show.

Have you ever -- do you ever have closure, Francis?

FRANCIS CARRINGTON, DAUGHTER, GRANDDAUGHTER MURDERED: No, not at all, it comes back to you all the time. You can be driving home from the store and all of a sudden it will hit you. You never have closure.

KING: Do you ever know why, Carol, they were killed? Was there a motive?

CAROL CARRINGTON, DAUGHTER, GRANDDAUGHTER MURDERED: I think it was a very selfish thing on his part. He felt that the girls would perhaps provide him with sexual pleasure and that's why. He was planning several times before that. He had planned to kill his girlfriend and her -- and abuse her children. Someone else in the motel he had planned to kill and abuse the children.

KING: Did you attend the trial, Francis?

F. CARRINGTON: Yes, I did.

KING: Every day of it?

F. CARRINGTON: Every day, didn't miss a day. It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

KING: Are you glad he was sentenced to death?

F. CARRINGTON: I am, yes I am.

KING: Erin, Samantha how long ago was that now?

ERIN RUNNION, DAUGHTER'S MURDERER ON SAN QUENTIN DEATH ROW: It's been three and a half years. It will be four years on July 15th.

KING: You've had a little daughter since right?

RUNNION: Yes, yes.

KING: Four years? And what were her circumstances again? Why was she taken? Do we know?

RUNNION: Well, we know that he was acquitted of multiple counts of child sexual abuse against two other girls just two years before he took Samantha or a year before he took Samantha, so he came back to the condominium complex where one of his previous victims lived and she had moved. So, we can only speculate that he took the first child he saw and it was Samantha.

KING: Did you go to court?

RUNNION: Yes, yes.

KING: Was it hard to look at him?

RUNNION: It was. It was. It was six months from the Kelly hearings for the evidence and then the criminal trial. It was definitely the hardest.

KING: We'll be asking all of our guests what they think about forgiveness and parole and the like. Bill Bean, your son was a Sacramento police officer. All he was doing was approaching a car?

BILL BEAN, SR., SON'S MURDERER ON SAN QUENTIN DEATH ROW: That's correct, Larry. He was with his partner. They were out doing their job. They saw a car that had a cracked windshield so they thought they ought to pull it over and see what was going on.

KING: And he just got shot for that?

BEAN: Well, what happened is once they stopped him, my son was around to the passenger side of the car and his partner was doing the interviewing and at one point my son said "You know what, I think we better get him out of the car" and so he took off on what they called a slow speed chase.

They followed him into a residential neighborhood and apparently he had some type of a problem with the car. He pulled over. My son apparently got out the passenger side to go apprehend him and at that point he pulled out a revolver. His partner David Hogg (ph) yelled "He's got a gun." He fired and unluckily the bullet went through the armpit of the vest and killed my son.

KING: Where is the person who committed that crime now?

BEAN: Well, he's not where we want him. We're hoping that he ends up at Pelican Bay. He's in another prison right now, Larry. I can't remember the name of it. He has been having an appeal on his sentence now going on for over a year and a half. The trial ended a year ago last December and he still has an appeal going on.

KING: What was the sentence?

BEAN: Life without parole plus another 25 years on top of that.

KING: What do you care what prison he's in? BEAN: I don't want him to be comfortable. He's one of these guys that can go to prison he just fits right in. It's like his home away from home. He was used to going in, serving his time, getting back out again. He would go buy another gun, get back into the drug business and start all over again.

KING: Marc Klaas, everyone knows your story. Polly was kidnapped from her own bedroom and murdered. Richard Allen Davis is in San Quentin. We were right next to death row, right next to the house that he was in. Did you see any of those shows?

MARC KLAAS, DAUGHTER'S MURDERER AT SAN QUENTIN: You know what, Larry I live like five miles from San Quentin. I see the thing every day. I did scan the transcripts today and look at some of the video clips that were on it but I have a very, very difficult time with these types of individuals.

KING: In other words, there's no rehab possible?

KLAAS: Well, that's not what I said. I said I have a very, very difficult time with these types of individuals and quite frankly the statistics are pretty grim. It's a very, very difficult coin toss of individuals that are released from prison for violent crime.

Something like 67 percent of them are re-arrested within three years. And, depending on the number of arrests that they have in their criminal history those numbers rise precipitously.

KING: So, are you saying you're opposed to all parole for violent criminals?

KLAAS: Yes, I am saying that. I totally believe in truth in sentencing. I think that if somebody is sentenced to a term of imprisonment that it's only realistic that that individual should serve that term of imprisonment.

Now, I understand that prison guards and parole agents, et cetera, believe that these individuals need some kind of a bargaining chip to make them behave in prison but I would suggest that if they don't behave that you would continue to add on to their sentence as opposed to give them good time for having committed horrible crimes.

KING: We'll get the thoughts of Dr. Ablow when we come back from the break. And, as we go to break, this is Samantha's Runnion's not to be forgotten funeral. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUNNION: May everyone be inspired by her joy and take comfort in the gift that is every child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KEVIN HAGAN, SAN QUENTIN INMATE: I feel that prison has made me open my eyes to a lot of things as far as self because I've had a lot of time to look within myself to gain knowledge about self in things that I've done. But the main thing is that I've learned how to humble myself, humility, and to be more understanding of other people's feelings as well.

KING: Are you eligible for parole?

HAGAN: Yes, I am.

KING: If paroled would you be a completely different citizen?

HAGAN: Yes, I would. My whole thing with being paroled is to go back to the community and work with the youth. That is what I do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That man was a killer. Dr. Keith Ablow can killers be rehabilitated?

Well, I think some killers can be changed certainly right through the art of psychotherapy and other arts, including medicinal treatments. However, I'm the last one to suggest that a killer who has demonstrated that kind of malignant potential belongs on the streets. I suggest we start much earlier with, for instance, first time violent offenders.

KING: So how then do you know, Dr. Ablow, who to let out?

ABLOW: Well, here's the thing. I take a very practical approach. I consider these people to be highly disordered that violence, the kind of violence they're expressing is a deep psychological illness and that means that you can't just let them out.

You can't even let out a first time or second time violent offender with no extensive follow-up for years and years and year. Killers are the end of the line. You can't let them out period because we don't know how to treat them.

KING: Got you. Francis, why do you want Gary Stayner to die?

F. CARRINGTON: We went to the trial for one reason, one reason only and that's because of our daughter and granddaughter. We wanted justice to be done. We have no hate, no feeling. We do not even talk about Gary Stayner anymore. After the trial and the sentence that was it. We had protected our daughter and granddaughter with the only thing we could do.

KING: Do you want him to die Carol?

C. CARRINGTON: I don't particularly care about that.

KING: Don't care one way or the other?

C. CARRINGTON: I wanted something more than just prison. I think the people that do such terrible things, especially to children, there needs to be something more.

KING: Like?

C. CARRINGTON: Death.

KING: Oh, so you want him to die?

C. CARRINGTON: I'd be perfectly happy if he does. I'd be perfectly happy if he just stays in prison for the rest of his life.

KING: Erin, do you want Mr. Alejandro Avila to die?

RUNNION: It won't help me feel any better.

KING: There's no closure?

RUNNION: There's no closure, no.

KING: So, if he dies or doesn't die immaterial?

RUNNION: No, immaterial.

KING: Do you think about him much?

RUNNION: No, no. You know what burns me honestly about his sentence is the idea that the state of California is going to be wasting so many thousands of dollars on appeal after appeal to get him off of death row. That infuriates.

KING: Bill, do you want the man who killed your son to die?

BEAN: Well, unfortunately, Larry, he did not get the death penalty. I wish he had. I truly believe in my own heart that the death penalty is a deterrent and I think it was proven here in California when we had a moratorium on the death penalty years ago.

The murder rate went up. And now that we've reinstated it, even though we're not using it properly, the murder rate has come down, so it is a deterrent in my mind.

KING: But there are some states, Bill, that don't have it and they have -- their percentage of rate is the same as those that do.

BEAN: Well, California is a different state with different demographics than other states. Here again my belief is that it does deter people and it would deter me. I mean if I was the one that wanted to do something like that, I would think about it.

KING: Marc, you want Richard Allen Davis to die?

KLAAS: Horribly and painfully, yes sir.

KING: Well, it won't be painful will it?

KLAAS: Well, I don't know. I understand that he gets beat up and mauled pretty regularly in prison, which always brings a little bit of joy to my heart quite frankly. You have to realize who these characters are, Larry.

Just in the room with you right now there is so much pain. There has been so much devastation. The ripple effect of these guys, the lives that get destroyed and ruined and torn asunder oftentimes people aren't as strong as the wonderful people that are on your panel tonight and they get destroyed by these crimes.

And I can completely understand why many of these people, including myself, pay a lot of attention to these characters or put a lot of our energy into them. They've sucked the life out of us for so long that the last thing we need to do is devote any time or any energy to them whatsoever.

KING: But, Marc, does revenge if that's the term, please you?

KLAAS: That's not revenge. It's punishment. These guys are getting punished for the crimes that they committed. They took lives. They're going to lose lives. The thing I can't believe is that the cop killer somehow got away without the death penalty. He certainly deserves it as much as the others. If we're not going to give it to people who are killing those who protect us, who in the world are we going to give it to?

So, no, it's not about revenge at all. This is about punishment. This is about punishment for horrible crimes that were committed in the most cowardly way against the most innocent of our citizens.

KING: Dr. Ablow, did you believe the prisoners who were on this show for two nights this week all of whom said they were OK now?

ABLOW: No, I don't believe those prisoners. However, I have been attending to what has been said and I'll tell you the why question hasn't been answered. When you ask these very good people why did this happen they gave the circumstances of the crime. But I can tell you there is a why. The people who did these horrible things were themselves destroyed psychologically earlier in their existences.

They lost the human capacity to care about other people and we better do more than be intent on killing them. We better re-frame what we think and say, you know what, these are people who are sick and ill and we better treat earlier on in the process. We better safeguard against this happening.

I understand the desire for revenge. I know what it is to grieve for a lifetime. I've sat with people doing it. But while at some level satisfying it gives us no answers and it certainly gives these people no closure.

KING: As we go to break, and we'll be back with more, different guests coming in the next half hour, here was the memorial service for police officer Billy Bean, Jr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bill was a professional and remarkable police officer. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love Bill Bean and I would like you to love him too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember the night he died. My mother and a couple of us were outside his house trying frantically to get information. Then my mother told me he was gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Beautiful Polly Klaas. All right, Francis, what do we do as a society? You were telling me that the guy who killed your daughter and your granddaughter and the other woman killed someone else later but he was the process of a weird household right, incest?

F. CARRINGTON: Yes.

KING: His brother raped. What do we do?

F. CARRINGTON: One thing that we do and it's so important, it's what you're doing, we're bringing it out to the public. I remember when we first had our case nobody talked about these things. I remember the deal that you did on the Utah girl that disappeared.

We have to talk and understand these things and bring up these problems. Most people say "It could never happen to me." I never felt that it would happen. You never felt it would happen.

KING: Erin, are you overly protective of your daughter now?

RUNNION: Yes.

KING: You watch her all the time?

RUNNION: Yes. Yes. But part of that is because I now have an awareness of how pervasive crimes against children are. I mean in this country as many as one in five girls and one in six to ten boys are sexually assaulted before they are 18. I mean this is pervasive and we have got to recognize it.

We need to address this problem from a prevention point of view as well as reactive. So far we're always talking about what do we do after they've committed a heinous crime? But we need to start talking about how do we protect our children from being harmed in the first place?

KING: Can we say, Bill Bean, Sr., that your son knew what he was getting into? When you become a cop you take your life in your hands every day you go out.

BEAN: I don't think that's acceptable. There is no reason to murder a police officer. He was considered a non-violent drug offender at the time. He was given chance after chance after chance. He was caught with a weapon two or three times previously and never charged. And, no, just because you're a cop that doesn't mean you're open game and they can come out and shoot you if they want.

KING: That memorial service looked like it was tough to take.

BEAN: Larry, I've never seen that footage. I've never been able to watch anything that was on TV. I've got tapes that people have sent me and I've never been able to read any newspaper articles. My son, Chris, puts on a program at his high school in Bear River High School in Auburn and I've never been able to go watch it. It's about his brother. He tries to teach kids how to live every day and live without any regrets and I can't watch it.

KING: Marc Klaas, why do you -- why didn't you -- when Polly was killed, a terrible thing, why didn't you just go away? Why didn't you just live your life? Why so public? Therefore you are forced to think about her every day by being as public as you are.

KLAAS: Well, I would be forced to think about her anyway. I mean Polly was the defining moment in my life. It gave me -- it gave my life meaning having this wonderful child that I got to watch grow for 12 years.

Quite frankly they messed with the wrong bunch here. You know they shouldn't have messed with me. They shouldn't have messed with Erin, the Carringtons, or Mr. Bean because we're going to fight back. We're not going to roll over and allow these guys to get away with these kinds of crimes.

We're going to make them sorry they committed these crimes. We're going to try to create legacies in our children's name that will be protective of other children and other police officers, other innocent victims, hopefully for generations to come. That's why I do it and I suspect that's why the others do it as well.

KING: Dr. Keith Ablow, are these men who do -- is it preventable, the sexual predators? Are they preventable?

ABLOW: Well, let me put it this way. I don't think evil springs onto the planet. The protection of...

KING: You're not born evil right?

ABLOW: I haven't found and I've interviewed killers, I've treated violent men and women, I can tell you that I've never met somebody who I believed was born evil and I don't know any clinician who can tell me about a case in which it's clear that somebody had a great life and just did these horrendous things.

So, the point is that when these very good people talk about protecting children, we have to realize that these men who did these despicable acts were unprotected children. They were, in fact, victims themselves to a person and, yes, we have to protect children.

So, we also have to remember, however, how fragile is empathy, our capacity to bond with each other, to care about each other? These people had it crushed out of them. They lost that human capacity and we have to protect everyone and we have to protect our own capacity to empathize too.

KING: Dr. Ablow will remain with us, so will Marc Klaas. Thank you all very much for coming.

When we come back some more victims of crime, including a lady who will surprise you, someone killed her pregnant daughter. She went to prison and forgave him.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.

By the way, the programs at San Quentin will be repeated this weekend. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUNNION: Nothing can bring our baby back but knowing that her death was handled with the utmost integrity and her life cherished by so many does bring some solace.

Ken and I were truly honored to be her parents. We always knew she had a gift for the world but it never occurred to us that her greatness would be realized in her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Again, our follow-up to our programs at San Quentin continues. We welcome to our show, Peter Zazzara, the brutalized bodies of his father and stepmother Vincent and Maxine Zazzara were found in their home March 27, 1985. The killer was Richard "The Night Stalker" Ramirez, convicted of those and 11 other murders in 1989, he's on death row at San Quentin. On Tuesday, appeals attorneys asked the California Supreme Court to overturn that conviction. In Houston is Linda White, her pregnant daughter, Kathy Lynn O'Daniel, was raped and shot to death by two 15-year-old boys. She has forgiven the killer, plans to speak on his behalf to the governing body that considers Texas inmates for parole.

And remaining with us is San Francisco is Mark Klaas, whose daughter Polly was kidnapped from her bedroom, molested and murdered. And Boston Doctor Keith Ablow the forensic psychiatrist, frequent contributor to the "New York Times" and host of the upcoming syndicated Dr. Keith Ablow show. What happened Peter?

PETER ZAZZARA: They were both murdered in 1985.

KING: What was the situation, where were they?

ZAZZARA: They were inside the house and they were murdered and --

KING: He just came in the house?

ZAZZARA: Yeah he broke in through a window.

KING: Who, to rob? What was the purpose of the "Night Stalker"?

ZAZZARA: You know I'm not really sure myself if he was there to rob or just to create -- just to murder them.

KING: How did he kill them?

ZAZZARA: One was a stabbing and a shooting.

KING: How did you find out?

ZAZZARA: I came to the house that morning and by an employee of my father. That's how I came to find out about it.

KING: Never get over it, right?

ZAZZARA: No.

KING: Did you attend the trial of the "Night Stalker"?

ZAZZARA: No I didn't, I couldn't. It was too painful for me. I couldn't handle it. The whole incident was already painful enough.

KING: Since he was just killing people at random, right, I think 13 in all. How do you explain it to yourself? How do you understand it?

ZAZZARA: I don't. It's just evil. It's just pure evil. I don't know why somebody would want to do something like that. To take joy in the way it happened.

KING: And act cocky as we see him now.

ZAZZARA: Yeah.

KING: You would have no thought then, maybe it's absurd to even say it, of forgiveness?

ZAZZARA: No, I couldn't. Not in my heart but God may forgive him.

KING: Do you want him to die?

ZAZZARA: I would.

KING: Linda White in Houston. What happened to your daughter?

LINDA WHITE: She was taken for a ride down a dark and lonely road by two boys that she had mistakenly given a ride. And was raped by both of them and then shot to death because they needed her car.

KING: How old was she?

WHITE: 26.

KING: Now, we're going to show a tape in the middle of you going to prison. You visited one of the killers? WHITE: Yes, I did.

KING: What about the other killer?

WHITE: I had suggested to the man who runs the same program here in Texas that I'd like him to seek out that young man and see if he'd like to meet with me, too. But he's a little bit different than Gary, Gary was very anxious to meet with me.

KING: Are both of them on death row? Were they convicted capital punishment?

WHITE: No, they were 15 Larry and even in Texas, we don't give the death penalty to 15-year-olds.

KING: So what sentence did they get?

WHITE: One of them... they both essentially got 54 to 55 years, no appeal. And because of the law at the time they were convicted, they each had to serve at least a third of their sentence before they even came up for parole the first time.

KING: We're going to show an amazing piece of tape now, Linda White visiting one of the men convicted of killing her pregnant daughter as he tells her how the crime went down. With her, the victim's own daughter who was just five when her mother was killed. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We realized we had already gone too far. She said you can take the car, you can take the money. You can take anything you want and I won't say nothing. And then as Marvin pointed the gun towards her way, she said, I forgive you and God will too and then she put her head down.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

KING: First, Linda why did you go to see him?

WHITE: I wanted to hear his remorse, I wanted him to look me and my daughter, Amy, whom we adopted. I wanted him to look at us in the face and see what he had done. Because I think a lot of offenders forget that the crimes they commit are not really against the state of Texas or the state of California or the state of whatever. They really are about human beings and they do, as many of your panel members have already said, they create so many years and years of pain as it ripples out through the lives of other people. I wanted him to see that, I wanted him to look us in the face. And I wanted to see if I could have any compassion towards him.

KING: Why did you forgive him?

WHITE: I actually never set out to do that at all, Larry. In fact, I never thought about it. I just realized that once upon a time that my definition of forgiveness maybe needed a little work on it. And I heard someone say about two years before I met with Gary that one definition of forgiveness is letting go of the negative power that the act holds over you. I thought that was a probably a pretty good definition. I think most people equate forgiveness with the idea of its okay, it doesn't matter. And of course when you're talking about murder and rape and those kinds of things, it will never be okay.

KING: And of course they were 15.

WHITE: Right.

KING: Could you Peter ever meet with the "Night Stalker"?

ZAZZARA: No, I don't think I could.

KING: Marc, could you meet with Richard Davis?

KLAAS: Well I met with him, I faced him in court.

KING: In court, I remember that. But I mean, could you go sit with him and visit him?

KLAAS: Oh no, no, no, no. I'm not a proponent of restored of justice. I greatly admire Mrs. White for her ability to do what she did but certainly that is not a path that I could take.

KING: Dr. Ablow, how do you explain what Mrs. White did?

ABLOW: Well first of all I'm humbled by it. I explain it in this way that apparently she was able to use extraordinary empathy, which is the quality that I've been referencing. Her capacity to do that is an extraordinary thing. I don't pretend that everyone can. I'm not even prescribing it for everyone.

But taking in contrast to the lack of empathy of those young men who did that despicable thing, it serves us well to remember that they too were children and somehow they lost that very shining capacity that she's demonstrating in such unusual fashion. That's the antidote in a way. And what she suggests is right, we need to apply a medical model to this, we need to find killers before they become killers and understand there's a pathophysiology here. We can interrupt the illness before it reaches malignant stages but first we have to define it as such. We have to say it is an illness.

KING: Let me get a break and we'll be back with more, lot's more to go. And again the San Quentin programs will be repeated this weekend. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITE: For me it was the most logical thing in the world after this time together. What we gave each other. To have a hug at the end.

Thank you.

We'll be watching you. Trust me, I'll give you something to see in the bright light.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Adding to our panel here in Los Angeles is Marcella Leach. In the early 1980's her 21-year-old daughter was stalked and shot in the head by her ex-boyfriend. He got a prison sentence of 17 to life, he's still in prison. She is vice chair of Crime Victims United. Also here is Lydia Gain. In 1995 Lydia's husband, an L.A. city worker who was ready for retirement was shot and killed by a disgruntled former employee. There were two other victims. Lydia takes solace in knowing that her husband's killer is surrounded by walls and bars and is only allowed out of his cell one hour every day. Marcella, do you have any forgiveness for the man who did this to your daughter?

MARCELLA LEACH, VICE CHAIR, CRIME VICTIMS UNITED: No, I do not. I don't have one ounce of forgiveness.

KING: Where is he now?

LEACH: He's in Soledad State Prison.

KING: And he got 17 to life?

LEACH: Yes.

KING: Why did he not get life or the death penalty?

LEACH: Because in 1983, November 30th when she was murdered, victims had no rights whatsoever, even the courts. That's why Dominic Dunn's wife, Ellen Griffin Dunn and I helped to found justice for homicide victims. Our goal was to make victims not just accountable to their own victims, but to change things and give us some rights.

KING: What do you make of what Linda did by forgiving?

LEACH: Well I think everyone has their own -- I think everyone has their own feelings and their own religion and I just --

KING: You can't.

LEACH: -- don't believe that I can do it and I'll never do it.

KING: Lydia, do you have any forgiveness?

LYDIA GAIN: Well, I never think of the man that murdered my husband.

KING: Don't think of him at all?

GAIN: Ever, ever. It was -- all my thoughts were for my beautiful husband that I lost. I still think like that. I don't think about him so how could I forgive something that --

KING : Did you go to his trial?

GAIN: Every single day I was there for everything, even the attorney would tell me, it's just going to be a few minutes. I wanted to be there for my husband.

KING: And you're happy the guy is in prison obviously?

GAIN: Oh yes.

KING: But you don't think about him or care about him?

GAIN: Ever. I never did. I never had any feeling for him at all.

KING: What do you think of what Linda did to go and forgive the man who killed?

GAIN: Well that's the way she feels and that's the way her right to do that.

KING: Are you surprised by it?

GAIN: No, because I've heard other people say that that they forgive the murderer. But me, I never thought of him. I just thought always of my husband and I don't (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Peter, you were telling me during the break, you couldn't understand why they go through programs and educate them. Isn't that called civil?

ZAZZARA: What's civil about what they did, though? They're uncivilized people and that's why they're in prison.

KING: You give them no solace?

ZAZZARA: None. No.

KING: Linda, can you understand Peter?

WHITE: Oh, yes. I can understand a lot of the things that I've heard for a very, very long time I never thought about Gary or that other young man either. Not for a minute. As far as I was concerned, Texas took care of them for me. It wasn't until I spent some time talking to people who had sat and done what I did and saw the peace in their life that I was interested in doing it. So, I do definitely understand how they feel. I felt that way for a long period of time myself.

KING: Dr. Ablow do you understand how Lydia and Marcella feel?

ABLOW: Absolutely. There's no question and no one can truly place one's self in the position of a survivor of a murdered child. I have children myself. It boggles the mind. The question is, who do you hate? Do you hate the man who did this? Or do you then if you know the whole story, as I do for killers, a number of them, do you hate the people who crush them as children? Or do you go back yet another generation and hate the parents or the perpetrators who stole their empathy? See these are very long stories that result in the last event, the fatal act. And if you want to understand, you need to go back into the early, early chapters and trace these stories and see how people's capacity to care, how people's capacity to control themselves was taken away.

KING: I'm going to hold our guests here. We'll take a break and be right back. But first let's check in with John Roberts sitting in for Anderson Cooper. John will host "AC 360" at the top of the hour. What's tonight John?

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hey good evening to you Larry. Some compelling shows you've had this week, by the way.

Coming up tonight at the top of the hour on 360, new details about the killing of the brutal terrorist Abu Musab Al Zarqawi. U.S. commanders now say Zarqawi was alive even mumbling when troops entered the bombed out house. We'll tell you how some people believe Zarqawi might have initially survived the bombing and why there might have been a firefight before the bombs were dropped. Plus a lighter note, Dan Aykroyd's alien obsession. An interview with the former "Saturday Night Live" cone head about why June is the month to watch the skies. All that and more, Larry. It's going to be interesting coming up at the top of the hour.

KING: It never fails, John. John Roberts, he'll host "AC 360" at 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific and we'll be right back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Peter, this would apply to you. There are some doctors who are saying that they don't want to attend lethal injections because it's against what they were trained to be. How do you feel about that?

ZAZZARA: That's the way that they feel about it but if that's the way the courts say it should be administered, they should carry out their duties in order to execute that judgment or process if you will.

KING: What happened to your parents? They just weren't just killed, right?

ZAZZARA: Right. My stepmother was stabbed 47 times and her eyes were cut out and then my father was shot several times and that's about all I know about his murder. It was so heinous that he's been on death row now for 20 years and he's still not -- at 21 years, and he still hasn't been executed. So I don't understand why they have the death penalty if they're not going to use it. They're just drawing this out for us and making it more difficult for the families.

KING: He took her eyes out?

ZAZZARA: Yes. KING: You favor the death penalty right Marcella?

LEACH: Yes I do.

KING: You too Lydia?

GAIN: Yes.

KING: Linda does not, Mark Klaas does. Dr. Ablow do you favor it?

ABLOW: No sir. No.

KING: Not even let's say the "Night Stalker"?

ABLOW: No I don't. Because ultimately I go back to my belief that these people are disordered and sick people. And we need to draw a very clear line in the sand between them and us. We can't allow their violence to infect us. That doesn't mean that we don't contain them, safeguard the community and do what it takes to keep our children from harm. But it's very important that we stay this side of violence whenever we can.

KLAAS: Larry if I may for a minute. Would he suggest then that Hitler shouldn't be executed for killing 6 million people then Bin Laden shouldn't be executed for the crimes that he's committed against humanity. That the (INAUDIBLE) and terrorists that have existed in our history shouldn't be executed for the horrible things that they have done? Because quite frankly there's very little difference between somebody like Richard Allen Davis or the "Night Stalker" and Adolph Hitler and Osama Bin Laden. The basic difference is ambition and resource. They have more ambition, they have more resource. And to suggest that our eliminating these individuals for having committed these kinds of crimes is delving into the kind of violence that they get into I think is a gross misstatement.

ABLOW: If I've equated in any way I would apologize that kind of violence and what I'm suggesting the death penalty represents. However, would it be valuable for society to say even in the face of the darkest and gravest kind of injustice visited upon us, we do not kill when we don't have to? Absolutely, that's my belief. I think it helps people more to take that stance. But I honor your feelings.

KLAAS: But the problem is, is what happens is that people that go in for life without the possibility of parole inexplicably find themselves back in society again. Even people that go on death row in this country inexplicably find themselves back into society again only to have to be retried and ultimately executed. I mean that's the problem. We have a criminal justice system that is totally and completely broken down and based on a series of lies.

ABLOW: Well that's why it's not inexplicable. It is explainable. And that's because we don't have sufficient resources to track these people. There's absolutely no reason that a killer should find himself back in society. There's no reason that we should take as a complete solution, somebody who fondles a young girl and gets four years in jail and has no follow-up. That person should be followed up for life. But that takes seeing it as a disorder. Not something to punish.

KLAAS: But we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a real world where these guys do get back out onto the street again and we have to apply the rules of law so that we can control them and monitor them.

KING: I got to get a break, we'll come right back with our remaining moments. We're going to do lots more on this. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Marcella Leach, you have attended parole hearings, right?

LEACH: Just the first one. I had a heart attack and I don't go to any more.

KING: Did you speak out against him getting parole for the murder of your daughter?

LEACH: Yes, absolutely.

KING: Did you have to see him there?

LEACH: Yes, he's across the table from you.

KING: Is that hard?

LEACH: Yes, very hard. It's the most difficult thing.

KING: You find you were able to look at him or not look at him?

LEACH: I can look at him, but I think he knows what I would like to do to him.

KING: Linda you want to see the young gentleman released?

WHITE: I want to see him released while he still has an adoptive family to go to. People that love him. He didn't grow up under the most ideal circumstances. I imagine the good doctor on the program tonight could tell us a lot about that kind of thing.

KING: Lydia, I'm running close on time. Lydia, when is the person who killed your husband, is he in for life?

GAIN: Yes, without parole.

KING: Without parole?

GAIN: Yes.

KING: So you don't sit up worrying about that?

GAIN: No. KING: Peter, I know that the "Night Stalker" just had a hearing on appeal. You don't think he's going to get overturned, do you?

ZAZZARA: I hope not.

KING: That would drive you a little bananas, right?

ZAZZARA: Yeah it would, yeah.

LEACH: Well if Prob. 66 had passed he would have gotten out.

KING: Mark, when is Richard Allen Davis supposed to die?

KLAAS: Oh he's number 450 on a list of 630 in a state that's executed 11 in 30 years, so, you know, there's -- do the math. Larry the most important thing that's been said tonight, though is this whole issue of prevention. We have to insure that today's children don't become the next generation of predators and the best way to do that is to invest in these children and I think that's something that's been alluded to by almost every guest thus far.

KING: Agreed, including Dr. Ablow and we'll have you all back and we'll do lots more on this. And I thank you all very much for coming. And again, this was all based on the two programs we did at San Quentin. They will be repeated tomorrow night and Sunday night. And on Monday night we'll have a whale of a time with the people who were victims of 9/11 taking off on Ann Coulter, who has written a book charging them with taking advantage of 9/11. That will all be Monday night. Right now, we head to John Roberts, he will host "ANDERSON COOPER 360." John's been sitting in most of the week doing a superb job as always. John, what's up tonight?

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