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Nancy Grace

Mary Winkler Pleads Not Guilty to Charges She Murdered her Husband, a Tennessee Minister. Police Continue to Hunt for Reno Businessman Darren Mack, Suspected of Stabbing his Estranged Wife to Death and Shooting the Judge Who Presided Over his Divorce

Aired June 14, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight, major developments in the intense manhunt for a handsome millionaire on the run, the trail leading to airports in the San Francisco Bay area and to a relative of the suspect. Did the 45-year-old businessman accused of killing his estranged wife and shooting a judge escape the country?
Also tonight, the shooting death of a preacher rocks a small Tennessee town, the preacher`s wife in court today, facing first degree murder charges. And tonight, we are taking your phone calls.

Hi. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace tonight. The search is on for a fugitive millionaire now accused in the knifing death of his wife and shooting a judge in the chest. Where is Darren Mack?

But first tonight: A preacher`s wife dressed in something less than her Sunday best as she appears in court today on charges of shooting her husband. Mary Winkler pleads not guilty to first degree murder in a Tennessee court.

Let`s go straight out to reporter Liz Daulton with WREC radio. She has been tracking this case from the start. Liz, give us a quick recap of the crime itself and an update on what happened today.

LIZ DAULTON, WREC RADIO: A quick recap of the crime itself is that the body of Matthew Winkler was found on March 22, when some church parishioners were concerned that he didn`t show up for a nightly service. They found the body in the master bedroom at the church parsonage, where he was shot, found in a prone position, face up.

And everything that`s happened since then -- a national Amber Alert was issued for Mary Winkler and the couple`s three daughters. They were found in Orange Beach, Alabama, the next day.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And today, we see Mary Winkler in court. We understand she was more emotional today than she had been in a previous court appearance. She apparently did not speak, but she held a Kleenex. What can you tell us about her emotional state?

DAULTON: I think it was a little bit more emotional than we were used to seeing. The several other appearances she has been, she`s kept her head down, stayed very quiet. The reason behind the emotion, according to her attorney, was that she has received a letter from her two older daughters, which is the first contact that she`s had with them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Psychotherapist Lauren Howard, is it also a case that this crime happened in late March, now the shock of it is wearing off and the reality is setting in, and with that reality comes tremendous pain?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, absolutely. No matter what her mental state is -- and whether or not we decide that she is compromised psychologically or not -- she is realty-based enough to recognize what she`s done, that she`s committed a murder. And certainly, her lack of access to her children has caused her a lot of pain. That we know. So there`s no question that at this juncture, her response to these events is outside of that sort of bubble of shock, if you will.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And of course, she does deserve the presumption of innocence. She has pleaded not guilty and she has not been convicted yet.

Let`s hear what her defense team has to say about her mental and emotional state.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am concerned about her emotional state. One of those concerns is whether or not she would harm herself. Now, suicide watch in different detention facilities means different things. From what I have seen this morning, I am not concerned that she could get to things that she could harm herself with.

She is trying to cope with the loss that she finds herself in. She`s accused with the homicide of the husband that she loved. She`s not been with her children. Her three kids are with the paternal grandparents. And from what we understand, they are in very capable, loving hands. But she`s separated from them, and she`s just an emotional wreck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we are very happy tonight to have with us one of Mary Winkler`s defense attorneys, Steve Farese. Now, thank you for joining us, sir. I do understand that what happened today is a trial was set, I believe for October 30. There is going to be a bond hearing on June 30. But how do you argue to get somebody out on bail when you`re concerned about their mental state and the possibility that they might harm themselves?

STEVE FARESE, MARY WINKLER`S ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, the clip that I only heard, I could not see, presumably was from March of this year. That`s one of the reasons that we decided not to ask for bail at that time. Since that time, we`ve had her seeing a psychologist. We`ve gotten reports from that psychologist, and we`ve continued to see her and has seen -- have seen the change in her mental state.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, the entire world -- and I understand that you, as a defense attorney, don`t want to reveal your hand, but the entire world is wondering why. Why did this woman, a mother of three, seemingly happily married, allegedly do this? I understand you don`t want to tip your hand, but is there anything that you can tell us? Because you have been quoted as saying that you won`t use any one issue, that it`s not that clear-cut, that you have to look at the entire picture. Can you give us a sense of what you mean by that?

FARESE: Well, what we mean by that is that we can`t start with March 22 of 2006 and say this is the whole story. You have to go back into this family`s history, both Matthew`s and Mary Carol`s. You have to investigate the facts that led up to this incident.

And by the way, just so your therapist will know, I don`t appreciate her assuming that this was murder. Any therapist who has treated someone should find out the facts before they make such assumptions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, are you essentially saying she didn`t fire the gun and hit her husband in the back, or are you saying that she had a very good reason for doing so, such as self-defense, insanity or possibly that it was an accident?

FARESE: I don`t know. Did Dick Cheney shoot his lawyer?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re talking about the hunting accident? I know he shot somebody.

FARESE: Oh, now it`s a hunting accident. Twenty-four hours before the police are called, he`s drinking. That`s a hunting accident. But this is a murder. You know, you can`t have it both ways, Jane. You have to know all the facts...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well...

FARESE: You have to know all the facts surrounding each incident.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s why we have you on. We have you on to get the facts. I mean, we`ve heard a lot of possibilities here, and that`s what we want to hear. We want to understand. That`s all we`re trying to do, is understand. We`ve heard the possibility of an accident, of post-partum depression, of stressors, the fact that she is a preacher`s wife and they are held to tremendous scrutiny and put on a pedestal. They feel they have nobody to confide it. There`s a lot of factors that may be very important and explain her situation. That`s why we have you on.

FARESE: Well, I think that, if you take all of those factors and put them in a pot and stir them around, then you have a good idea of what the defense will be.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let me ask Allison Gilman about this because when she pleaded not guilty today, my understanding is -- and correct me if I`m wrong, sir, but my understanding is she didn`t plead not guilty by reason of insanity or self-defense or say it was an accident, she just said not guilty. Can they narrow that down the road?

ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They certainly can, if they decide to change that. But I don`t think they should. I like what they`re doing. Let people start thinking, wondering. I mean, you want to know what the defense is. I want to know what the defense is. But there`s so many possible defenses out there because this seems so unbelievable that this woman is going to do something like this. So we know that whatever the reason is, it`s going to be good and it`s going to be big. And people are going to be listening and waiting to hear what it is. So they`re keeping people guessing, and I think it`s smart.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But prosecutor Eleanor Dixon, maybe you can explain something to me, as a citizen. I don`t understand the difference between an explanation and a defense. We all have explanations for what we do. Even criminals who are convicted have explanations. When does it become a defense?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, it sounds like everything`s going to be a defense, at this point. I love how the defense attorney`s just throwing every possibility up there and stirring it all up because he wants to you focus on Dick Cheney, rather than the guilt of his client. And as the prosecutor that`s what I`d be looking at, everything that points to the premeditated murder of this man. He was shot in the back. That`s not an accident. That sounds like premeditation. That sounds like someone who is trying to get away from a situation. So I think it`ll be very interesting to see which wheel of defense he`ll spin this time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go to our forensic pathologist and medical examiner with us tonight, Dr. Michael Hunter. What does the fact that this minister was shot in the back tell you about the crime? Can you accidentally shoot somebody in the back? I mean, wouldn`t your hand have to be up pretty high, you`re holding up your hand? So does that have a tendency to say accident or not accident?

DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MEDICAL EXAMINER: You know, it`s really not possible, I think, looking at a wound like this in the back and say accident, homicide. You can tell a lot of things of the wound. You can certainly determine the range of the wound, as well as the trajectory of the wound. I mean, this wound is primarily coming from the back toward the front, and you know, it`s hard to explain, say self- defense, when the wound is right in the midline of the back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go back to Mary Winkler`s attorney, Steve Farese, because again, we`re all here just to try to understand the situation, not to attack you or your client. As part of trying to understand that, we look and try to extrapolate from the little tidbits you`ve given us and what we know about her background. Now, we understand that her husband was a minister with the Churches of Christ. And I have been told that even in the conservative Bible Belt, the Churches of Christ are considered rather strict, and that some of them have this philosophy that would be described by their critics as being the diminishment of women, that women are subservient to men, that they must submit to the will of their husbands. Was that a factor in this particular marriage?

FARESE: Well, first of all, I`m not here to take on any religion and would never dare to do so. In this specific case, yes, you do have people of the same religion, and you have the fact that he was a minister in this particular church. But I think you have to look at the specific type of person that he was, rather than the fact that he also happened to be a minister also.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But it`s relevant. I mean, this has come up in cases such as Andrea Yates and other women who are in very, very religious situations, where that becomes a factor, a stressor. If a woman has three children and it`s not considered proper for the husband to help and she`s overwhelmed, then that becomes a stressor. So that is relevant to this situation. It`s not irrelevant. Nobody`s trying to attack religion. But if it`s a factor, it`s a factor.

FARESE: Well, I don`t disagree that it might be a factor there in the overall story of how this event occurred. I`m just saying that I don`t want it to sound like that anyone is spinning, as one of your other guests said -- sounds like a prosecutor to me -- but is spinning anything. We want to show what the facts are and what the truth is, and we will rely on that as our defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have a caller who`s been waiting very patiently, Marie from Virginia. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Jane. We love you. While the defense attorney`s busy portraying his defendant as a victim, there are three victims. And those little kids, have they been examined for signs of sexual abuse or any other kind of physical abuse or emotional?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You raise such an important question. We are talking about this case, and there are those three gorgeous, beautiful children. Obviously, their lives have been completely shattered by this.

Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, how does something like this impact them, when their father has been murdered and their mother is accused of killing the dad?

HOWARD: Well, it`s horrific. I mean, how does it -- you know, first of all, the assumption that something untoward happened with the children at this point is such conjecture. We have no idea. None of us has any idea, which is why we`re so curious and at sort of the end of our seats. What happened here? It`s a strange incident. What occurred and why did it occur? There`s no reason to assume anything at all. I mean, our imaginations can run amok.

But for a child to have their mother incarcerated, to be removed from their home, to have their father dead by murder or accident or illness is a horrific, frightening, traumatic event. And to have their mother accused of that further confounds. Their abstract reasoning isn`t good, so there`s not a sort of a good-and-evil thing going on with them. It`s simply an abandonment issue, if you will, from their point of view.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And beyond that, they were kind of brought into it because they went along on the ride that the mother took, allegedly, to flee the scene.

HOWARD: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s hear from Joe in Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police have stated with some certainty that it couldn`t have been anything from the minister`s side that provoked the murder or may have given a motive to the wife. How can they be so sure?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s an excellent question. How could they possibly be so sure? Liz Daulton, you`ve been covering this from the start. How can they eliminate so many things, for example, the fact that there may have been a toxic situation inside the house? How do we know what happens behind closed doors?

DAULTON: How do we know what happens behind closed doors? There`s never any sure way to tell what`s going behind closed doors. What we are hearing is a lot of speculation from people that know the family or know the facts or police alleged confessions. And that`s the problem, is everything`s being thrown around, and it`s all speculation. So your guess is as good as mine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re absolutely right, it is all speculation at this point. All we can say is that she has pleaded not guilty, and at this point, she deserves the presumption of innocence. We do hope we get to the bottom of it, though, for all of our sake, and find out what was going on, what was the dynamic in that household. Thank you so much.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." A 19-year-old Pennsylvania man heads to prison for life for killing his girlfriend`s parents. David Ludwig admits shooting Michael Borden and Cathryn Borden inside their home. It all happened following an argument over his relationship with the couple`s 14- year-old daughter. After the crime, Ludwig fled the state with Kara Borden. As part of a plea deal, Ludwig has no chance for parole.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... wanted in the homicide of his wife.

-- did find a deceased female identified as Charla Mack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in for Nancy Grace. A suspected sniper wanted in the shooting of a Reno judge and the knifing death of his estranged wife. A manhunt is on, focusing on Nevada and California.

Let`s go straight out to Dennis Myers, news editor of "The Reno News and Review." Dennis, this is a very complex and very violent story. Please recap what happened to the two victims on Monday and the hunt for the suspect right now, as we speak.

DENNIS MYERS, "RENO NEWS AND REVIEW": Well, a family law judge in Reno, Judge Chuck Weller, was shot through his window, probably from a parking garage across the river from him. Shortly afterward, a man who -- the wife of a man who had his divorce case heard before Judge Weller was found dead. The man, the suspect, is identified as Darren Mack, a Reno businessman, fairly prominent, in fact.

Today, over the last 24 hours, a credit card belonging to Darren Mack`s business was used at the Sacramento airport, thought it could also have been used by a store employee. Police in Contra Costa, California, where Mack has a cousin, are keeping an eye out for him.

A community group in Reno today offered a $2,500 reward for Mack. A public relations man associated with Judge Weller today put out a statement saying that Weller, before he went to the hospital after the attack, gave instructions for his family to be moved to a safe location because the attack came after a couple of other incidences of harassment.

And Judge Weller`s brother, Michael, posted a message last night on one of the on-line pages that has carried some of the most vitriolic condemnations of family law judges, including some that praised the shooting. Michael Weller wrote to one of those critics, "My brother was shot by a sub-cretin like you."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. I`m trying to understand the timeline here, Dennis, because it seems that the wife was murdered before the judge was shot, but the judge was found before the wife was found. What can you tell us about that? Because apparently, police did go to the home because a friend was there and saw something, but they didn`t go inside. Is that correct or not?

MYERS: It`s a little unclear, but I think you are right. I think what happened was that the judge`s shooting was reported first, and so it assumed a greater, you know, prominence. And it was assumed from that for a while that his shooting came first. But I think you`re right about the sequence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is there any controversy over the police actions? In other words, is there any controversy over whether, when they got the tip about the woman, whether they should have gone right into the house?

MYERS: No, there`s been very little criticism so far of police conduct at all. There`s a certain amount of criticism of critics of family law, but nothing yet on the way the investigation has been conducted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going to talk to a family lawyer in a second and find a little bit more about that because there`s two sides to that story.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." The boyfriend of a missing 19-year-old Nebraska college student sits behind bars with no bond. Nineteen-year-old Christopher Edwards charged in the death of Jessica O`Grady, the weapon a Bangkok battle sword. DNA evidence places O`Grady at her boyfriend`s home around the time of her disappearance early last month. Edwards has waived his right to a preliminary hearing.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None of the investigative leads at this point would indicate that this is a random crime. We have a good primary suspect. We do have additional subjects that we will be looking at. But it does not appear that this is a random crime. It does appear that this was the work of one individual, and we`ll be continuing the full investigation.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Mayhem at a Reno courthouse, a judge shot in the chest through a window. He survived. He`s out of the woods now. A manhunt under way for the suspect, who is also facing charges in the stabbing death of his wife.

Daniel Sieberg, CNN`s technology correspondent, we are delighted to have you on tonight. We`ve learned so much about this suspect, Darren Mack, from his Internet activity. Even his Match.com user name, which is supposedly toomuchfun61 (ph), seems to speak volumes. So tell us more about what you`ve learned about him from the Internet.

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jane, in the course of our cyber-sleuthing, we`ve come across what could be some profiles that Darren Mack had put together on some of these on-line personal sites, and something else that we`re kind of interested in, and we`ll get to that in just a second.

But first of all, people know these on-line dating sites. And we found some sites that CNN cannot authenticate, by the way. We can`t independently confirm these are his sites. But if we can pull up the first one, this looks like a page for Darren Mack on the Yahoo! personal site. You can see his picture over here. Also, a lot of the information that`s on the site checks out. He`s 45, from Reno, Nevada. But you can fake a lot of this information, so we have to be careful with some of this stuff.

If we can go to the next one, this is a Match.com profile. You see again up here, he mentioned toomuchfun. He uses the same user name. In that particular case, he mentions he`s divorced, he has some kids.

But what`s really interesting about this page, it says it was active within the last 24 hours. Now, does that mean that he was able to log into it or the police or somebody else? We`re not sure, but we wanted to point that out.

If we can go to the next part of the Match.com page, this was just kind of interesting. We`ve heard about his sexual activity in some of the court records. In this case, he`s looking for someone, he says, who`s "very sexually adventurous." So that`s something on the Match.com page.

And finally, the last one we were able to come up with was his Myspace page. And in this case, again, he says he`s toomuchfun, and he`s got some other things here that check out. And this one says that he last logged in June 11, which was the day before the judge`s shooting. So interesting point there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Daniel, all of it absolutely fascinating in light of the fact that he was in the middle a very bitter divorce. We`ll get to that in a moment.

We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help, in our own way, solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at 18-year- old Brianna Wilkins from Livingston Park, Montana, missing January 11, 2006. If you have any information on her, please contact the Livingston Police Department or go to Beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have now have a warrant of arrest outstanding for Darren Mack for the crime of open murder with the use of a deadly weapon. It has the potential of being a death penalty case under the state laws; I`m not saying it is a death penalty case. That`s way too early in the ball game. Other sentences possible are life in prison with and without the possibility of parole.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. An intense manhunt to find a suspect in the shooting of a Nevada judge. Forty-five-year-old Darren Mack on the run, also charged in the death of his estranged wife.

What happens now to the kids? I understand they`re safe with family, but, psychotherapist Lauren Howard, how is this going to impact these kids growing up? This reminds us of the previous case we were talking about, especially the little one, a 7-year-old girl. She is the biological daughter of both parents. She was apparently in the house as her mom was violently murdered, allegedly by her own dad.

HOWARD: It`s horrific. I mean, this is a major trauma in the lives of all of these children. And how they fair moving forward is going to have to do with how well they are sort of processed and how they can tolerate it psychologically.

I mean, a seven-year-old still does not have abstract reasoning, so their -- you know, their sense of reality is very kind of concrete and in a narrow way. How, as their trajectory of maturation goes, and how they are able to process these events, will determine their outcomes psychologically, but it`s horrific.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And this man hasn`t been convicted of anything. He is on the loose; he is being sought.

HOWARD: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let`s talk about the reasons underlying his rage. Dennis Myers of "The Reno News and Review," let`s talk about this divorce battle that they were in the middle of, and this judge that he allegedly shot had made rulings that enraged this man that we`re looking at right now. Tell us about that.

MYERS: Well, the filings that I`ve read so far are mainly from her side of the case, but I think it`s important to point out that there are people who go through the family court system every day, have rulings against them, and manage to move on without shooting the judge.

The level of anger we`re talking about here is, you know -- a lot of people become unhinged in these family court cases. And I think it`s one of the most troubling aspects of this case. This is not peculiar to Judge Weller, nor is it a Reno thing. Family court judges...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course not.

MYERS: ... around the country, and their employees, their lawyers, staff members are the targets of some of the most venomous attacks in our society.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. And what I`m talking about are some of the details. Apparently, in the process of this divorce, the wife, who is now deceased, who was murdered, was allowed to stay in the home. It`s my understanding -- correct me if I`m wrong -- there were certain awards that she was given, in terms of spousal support, and alimony, and child custody.

There were certain bills that he was supposed to be paying that he wasn`t paying. I had even read a report that the house might have even been in foreclosure because he was supposed to pay everything from the taxes to the mortgage, and apparently, allegedly, did not. What can you tell us about that?

MYERS: Well, some of those things are correct, and a number of others are speculative or we haven`t been able to confirm them yet. The problem is, when you get into this area, we get into a posture of sounding like we are making excuses for what happened. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I just want to know the facts. I want to...

MYERS: ... the details of the case are not really the relevant issue here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think everything`s relevant when we`re talking about a husband who was accused of shooting his estranged wife and, certainly, the details of what this judge, who he`s also accused of shooting, who thankfully survived and is out of the woods right now and doing all right, in good condition, what this judge rules is relevant.

Let me go to Daniel Sieberg, CNN`s technology correspondent. My understanding was that there were some battles, not only just over the kids, but over sex. In fact, the wife had claimed in court papers filed by her attorney that, quote -- and this is published reports -- "despite his claim of bankruptcy, Darren Mack has continued to maintain a lavish lifestyle after the couple`s separation and has traveled outside of Reno with various women almost every weekend to alternative lifestyle or swing parties."

What else can you tell us about his alleged sexual escapades?

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Well, just what I`ve been hearing in some of the court records and, certainly, from the personal sites that we believe could belong to Darren Mack -- you saw the Match.com profile a minute ago -- that allude to his interests in that.

He says he`s looking for somebody who`s sexually adventurous and I think one point he says something like, "You know what I mean." So, outside of his marriage, now he`s obviously looking around for someone.

And along with these sites, police are going to be looking for any connections, if he`s actually contacted any of the women that he`s met on any of these sites, and if he`s trying to possibly go and meet them somewhere. And all of this could speak to his behavior and his personality.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I certainly do agree with Dennis Myers: This is an extraordinarily ugly divorce. And we`re not trying to condone anybody`s behavior here; we`re just trying to understand some of details, perhaps details viewers at home can relate to if they`re going through some kind of divorce, which many Americans are. So this is relevant; maybe we can all learn from it.

I understand that Darren Mack had been described as a multimillionaire business who had a successful jewelry and pawn shop, but apparently six months before the couple separated, in 2004, he reported his net worth at $9.4 million and nevertheless was in the process later of filing for bankruptcy.

Defense attorney Allison Gilman, one thing I`ve never understood is how people who are supposedly rich suddenly end up filing for bankruptcy?

ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I agree with you on that, Jane. If you can show that you`re flipped upside-down based on what you have liquid -- I mean he may have included in that type -- in figuring out what he was worth, his real estate, that he couldn`t sell. It wasn`t liquid.

Obviously, a lot of his assets were tied up in the divorce. A lot were in the wife`s name. But if you can show on paper that you`re flipped upside-down and your bills don`t equate, you can apply. And it`s really up to a judge to look at it and say, "You know, this is what the guy makes. This is what the guy has. Can he make his bills or not?"

And, remember, you can`t dispose of a lot of your debts through filing bankruptcy. He couldn`t have disposed of alimony or child support. He may have thought he could have, but he can`t. Only certain debts can actually be wiped out through bankruptcy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And if all of this sounds very messy and somewhat confusing, it`s because their lives were very messy and somewhat confusing. And we`re trying to sort it all out.

Let`s go to Evelyn in Florida. Your question, ma`am?

CALLER: Yes, does anyone know where the children are?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is an excellent question. Let`s go back to Dennis Myers. What`s your understanding of where the children are, sir?

MYERS: Remember that the suspect is still at large. The children are -- along with a number of other people who have a role in this case, are being kept in a secure and undisclosed location.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, Tennessee, your question?

CALLER: Hi, Jane. My question is: Has anyone considered that maybe he may have tried to change his appearance? That`s like Scott Peterson did, maybe dyed his hair, his eyebrows, grew a beard, or something like that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good question. Pat Brown, criminal profiler, what might he be doing right now to avoid detection?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, that`s a good point. He might, indeed, have changed his appearance, Jane. And on top of that, this guy has a lot of resources that many people on the run don`t have. Mind you, he ran a pawn shop. What do you think is in that pawn shop?

If you go to his eBay site, you see $300,000 or $200,000 diamond rings all over the place. This guy can scoop up a lot of jewelry. He can scoop up firearms. He probably has cash available. This guy is a multimillionaire.

He has a lot of stuff to take with him on the run and probably a lot of contacts, through business and through maybe some of his fun swinging life as well, that he can make use of. So we have to really -- I think pawn shop owners need to be on the lookout for this guy, because he may be coming by your shop to pawn something to keep on moving.

Keep an eye on all of the places he`s been to before and that he knows about. I think he`s going to try to get out of the country, because once he does, Jane, he`s got all of the money in the world to support his new alternative lifestyle, be damned for his kids or anybody else. I don`t think he cares about that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, Daniel Sieberg, CNN technology correspondent, I understand that authorities are trying to find out whether any of the women he may have contacted via the Internet could be helping him?

SIEBERG: That`s quite possible. Yes, they`re definitely looking into these sites, these personal sites, these dating sites like Match.com, Yahoo!, we pointed out a few of them, to see if he has any kind of connection with them now or has been in the past.

One of the things your other guests pointed out, eBay, he has a lot of activity on eBay. And maybe we can show you something about that coming up, something very interesting that he may have done just recently on that auction site.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I have one arrest outstanding for Darren Mack for the crime of open murder with the use of a deadly weapon. Before anybody even asks, it has the potential -- it has the potential - -and I`ll say that several times -- it has the potential of being a death penalty case under the state laws.

I`m not saying it is a death penalty case; that`s way too early in the ball game. Other sentences possible are life in prison with and without the possibility of parole.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We knew that Darren Mack and his victim, his estranged wife, Charla, that they had a recent case in the family courts in front of Judge Weller. The specifics of that case are pertinent to the court, and we wouldn`t talk about those here.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Police believe a successful Reno businessman murdered his estranged wife and tried to kill their family court judge with a sniper shot through the chest through a court window. Luckily, he survived. He`s OK.

The manhunt for suspect Darren Mack is on. And one thing we can say for sure: Boy, was this an ugly divorce!

Prosecutor Eleanor Dixon, so many warning bells. We`re talking about restraining orders, legal skirmishes, battles over money, sex, kids, so that we can understand this and help others. What should a woman do to protect herself when things get this ugly?

DIXON: Well, one thing I would suggest is she could get a temporary protective order through the courts that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they got mutual restraining orders, but it didn`t seem to do much good.

DIXON: Well, and that`s part of the problem with them, is a lot of times, if somebody`s intent on harming the other person, often the man intent on harming the female, there`s nothing you can do to stop them. I mean, short of putting an armed guard on your door 24/7, sadly that`s the way some people in our system react.

A TPO is a stop-gap measure and sometimes it`s successful. And also calling the police anytime there`s any harassment from that person to let that person know you`re not going to put up with it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I do hear so often that, when crimes occur, the person who is accused of harming the victim had a restraining order taken out against him. And it seems like almost like a bad omen to get a restraining order sometimes, because it`s such a common theme in these crimes.

I`d like to go to forensic pathologist and medical examiner Dr. Michael Hunter. You have been able to study what happened to Charla, the estranged wife. Tell us a little of some of the terribly gruesome details of her killing and what it says to you.

HUNTER: Yes, well, as far as the autopsy report, that`s really not available, but my understanding, based on that affidavit, is that she sustained multiple stab wounds to her chest and neck area.

Now, in a case like this, a person who dies from stab wounds, you don`t die from a single stab wound, or usually. What it takes is multiple stab wounds. You may have 20, you may have 30 stab wounds. So it`s extremely difficult to cause the murder of somebody with a stab wound because you really have to hit something vital.

One thing about wounds like this is that there`s going to be profuse bleeding. There`s going to be transfer of blood from the victim to the assailant. There is going to be possibly tracking of blood from the room where the event occurred to somewhere else in the residence.

I think there`s going to be a lot of evidence available, but, when you look at the assailant, is that evidence really going to be on him at this point?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you raise some very important points, and I want to go back to Dennis Myers, news editor of "The Reno News and Review," to get some details of what happened that we know so far when Charla was killed.

We understand -- and please correct me if I`m wrong; this is very complicated -- that a friend of the suspect, Darren, came over, and he was supposed to pick up the seven-year-old after Charla dropped her off, and do Darren a favor and take the seven-year-old to the grandmother`s house. And then he was there with the seven-year-old upstairs with his dog, and the dog raced out and then came back all bloody?

MYERS: That`s correct, something along those lines. I think it was troubling to a lot of people here that the murder went down in the house while this toddler was in the house and could easily have wandered downstairs.

The child was upstairs with the family friend; the parents were downstairs. And the family friend figured out what was going on from the dog, and got the child out of the house very quickly, and took her to the grandparents, had the presence of mind to get the child out of harm`s way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And my understanding is the dog had sort of gotten loose and then came back up and was covered in blood, and he thought maybe his dog was injured, started checking the dog, and found out, no, the dog`s not injured at all, so this blood doesn`t come from the dog; it comes from somewhere else.

Then he saw Darren, the suspect, come by with his hand wrapped in a towel and suddenly he made the connection and got the heck out of there with the child, then called police. And the police eventually went back to that location and ultimately found Charla`s body down there.

MYERS: Correct. I suspect that there was -- that the family friend was aware of a certain amount of tension in the house over a period of time, because simply having blood in a house is not in and of itself -- you know, you can cut yourself on a power saw or whatever. But the fact that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have two dogs. If my dogs ever showed up covered with blood, I would immediately declare some kind of crisis and find out what was going on, but I get your point.

Let`s go to Lydia from New York. Your question?

CALLER: How come we haven`t heard from his first wife? And do we know how he came to have custody of his children from that marriage?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go back to Dennis Myers, who is the expert on the details of this case. There were three children involved. Apparently, the seven-year-old was a biological child of Charla and Darren, but there are two other children from a previous marriage. What can you tell us about those children?

MYERS: To the second question, I don`t know the details of how the custody was with the father, or even if it was. We know that he was -- the children were with the father a good deal of the time, but that may mean -- may also indicate joint custody.

As for the first question, the first wife is -- to my surprise, a lot of us have been kind of respecting her privacy. I had a line out. A friend of mine came to me and told me that she had had some contact with the first wife, and, frankly, in the circumstances, I want to take care of the main story first and give this woman a little time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you so much. Lauren Howard...

MYERS: Also, you have to remember...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me jump in here for a second, because I want to go to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, and ask her about what has puzzled me -- and we`re running out of time -- is that one crime scene is very messy, disorganized, and sort of self-destructive. The other one is this alleged sniper shot that seems very well-planned-out, like an attempted assassination. It doesn`t jive for me.

HOWARD: Well, they don`t jog, but one is a crime of passion. One seems a much more sort of premeditated, you know, shoot-to-kill vengeance, anger.

I mean, listen, I have to say something. Looking at his Match.com sites, his Yahoo! personal sites, it is not against the law to be sexually promiscuous. It is not against the law -- he was divorced -- it`s a messy divorce -- or separated. It`s not against the law to pursue whatever -- you know, that is not what incriminates him.

What incriminates him is much more to the forensic reality of what has occurred here and his flight. The flight is highly, highly suspect, and that`s what we should be looking at.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very, very well-put.

Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Glen Stewart Godwin, on the run after escaping California`s Folsom State Prison in 1987 where he was serving time for murder.

Godwin, six feet, 200 pounds, salt and pepper hair, green eyes. Any information, call the FBI right away.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where is Darren Mack, suspected of killing his estranged wife? Let`s go straight out to CNN`s technology correspondent, Daniel Sieberg.

You have some information that could help us.

SIEBERG: Yes, Jane, only questions a lot of people might have is, how is Darren able to get some resources, some money? Well, in addition to his brick and mortar pawnshop, he also ran an eBay site where he sold some high-end jewelry.

And one thing I want to draw your attention to on this site is some activity that actually happened this morning, which is kind of amazing. If we can pull up the site here, you can see his profile. This is his site. He`s a very active seller on eBay.

And, by the way, I did contact eBay, and it is being investigated by the Reno Police Department. But what I want to draw your attention to is over here, and what you can see right here is an entry from this morning, June 14th, from someone who is giving him some feedback on an item that he purchased recently.

It`s a ring, and I think we have an image of what the ring looks like. Now, the ring may have arrived at any point -- we don`t know when it arrived -- but that was left today. So it makes you wonder if he`s able to access this money.

And the way that eBay works is the money could be wired to an account that he has access to. It`s sort of done electronically through something called PayPal. So this ring actually sold for $640, so he may have access to that money at this point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, absolutely fascinating case. We are just about out of time, but what we`re talking about here is a man that I understand has no criminal record, had appeared to be a good husband and father, and then suddenly, allegedly, went horribly south. Tonight, he is on the lam.

You can help us. If any of you out there see this man, do not approach him. He is dangerous. He is possibly armed with a semiautomatic, but contact authorities immediately. He is out there, believed to possibly be in California or Nevada. So you can help, as well.

Tonight, we remember Lance Corporal Juana Chica Navarro Arellano, an American hero. Navarro Arellano, killed in Al-Anbar, Iraq. Fellow Marines remember the 24-year-old as compassionate and a warrior. Tonight, Navarro Arellano, an American hero.

We want to thank all of our guests tonight for their insights, and thanks to you at home for tracking these very important cases with us. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. We hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, have a terrific evening.

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