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Nancy Grace

Day Five in Search for Fugitive Millionaire

Aired June 16, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight, day five, and the FBI now joining the search for a fugitive millionaire wanted for murder and attempted murder in Reno, 45-year-old Darren Mack on the run. Is he still in Nevada or northern California, or even in Mexico? Tonight, we go inside the 911 calls from one of the horrific crime scenes in the stabbing death of Mack`s wife and the shooting of a judge. And tonight, we are taking your calls. Where, oh where, is fugitive Darren Mack?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My gut instinct is that he is somewhere in the area, meaning either in the northern California area, Reno area. I believe that. And he`s obviously -- he`s on the run. And I`m begging him that if he hears this, if he`s listening to this, to please contact us. He knows he can trust us. We will do anything to help him. We want to save his life!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in for Nancy Grace, who is at an important family function tonight. A federal warrant issued for a successful Reno, Nevada, businessman, whose bitter divorce battle allegedly led him to knifing his wife to death and wounding the judge presiding over the couple`s case. The two crimes happened on Monday, and then the husband, 45-year-old Darren Mack, simply disappeared, sparking a massive manhunt for a suspect believed to be dangerous and armed. And now the FBI is getting involved.

Let`s go straight out to my good friend, "Inside Edition`s" chief correspondent Jim Moret for the very latest -- Jim.

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Jane, as you indicated, the FBI has launched its own investigation and joined in the search for 45-year-old Darren Mack. You heard that person indicate that they believe he`s in northern California. That`s because Darren Mack`s charge card was used at the international airport in Sacramento on Monday afternoon.

These crimes, as you indicated, happened on Monday. First Darren Mack`s wife was stabbed to death around 9:00 in the morning, and Darren Mack is the sole suspect. He`s wanted in connection with that murder. Two hours later, the judge overseeing the contentious divorce proceedings was shot sniper-style while in his office, and he was shot from across the street. He was shot with a Bushmaster .223 rifle. That`s a semi-automatic assault rifle similar to the one used just a few years ago in the D.C. sniper incidents.

And Darren Mack is believed to be armed and dangerous. His vehicle is a 2006 Ford Explorer, silver. Police are suggesting that if you see him, do not go up to him but simply to call authorities.

And really, there are no clues beyond that. He could be in the area. He could be out of the country right now, and police are very open about that possibility, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Former federal prosecutor Pamela Davis, what I don`t understand is, I thought the FBI got involved when state lines were crossed, and there`s evidence that this suspect crossed state lines on Monday, right after the crime was allegedly committed by him. He drove -- there`s evidence that he drove from Reno, Nevada, to Sacramento, California. There`s evidence that he used his credit card at the airport in Sacramento. So why did it take the FBI four days to get involved?

PAMELA DAVIS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s not always a simple matter to get the FBI involved, to get something other than the local police, the local prosecutors involved. It`s a much more complicated process than one might think. And the fact that they`re involved now is a glorious thing because the fact is, is that the FBI has resources at its fingertips that the local police in Reno simply do not have. So the fact that we now have the FBI involved is -- means that there is a much better chance that Mack is going to be arrested.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I`d like to go back to Jim Moret for a second because one of the fascinating new details that emerged today, apparently, allegedly, items connected to Charla Mack`s murder were found on the side of the road on I-80, which is the very road you would take if you went from Reno to Sacramento, more evidence that he took that drive.

MORET: Right, except the problem is, police aren`t indicating what those items are. They`re simply indicating that they`re items related to Chandra and they`re not being -- or Charla -- excuse me, I apologize for that. But this is one of the interesting things about this crime, Jane, and that is when Mack was allegedly stabbing his wife, his own daughter, their daughter, and a friend, were believed to be in his house at that very time. And apparently, Darren Mack asked that friend, Why don`t you -- don`t you want to go out for coffee? Almost as if nothing had happened.

So this is a really unusual case. And three minutes after the judge was shot, Mack allegedly called a cousin and said something to the effect, If anything happens to me, I want to you be very clear and make it very clear what the problems that I was going through in this divorce. So this person was sending out a number of clues and acting in a way that`s really inconsistent with a sane person. However, there`s no indication that he`s deranged or anything. He is believed to be armed and dangerous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And you talked about problems with this judge. Apparently, Darren Mack had tremendous hatred for this judge. Let`s go to Dennis Myers, news editor of "The Reno News and Review." I understand, Dennis, that a news conference was held today in which some family court judges there talked about the problem of dealing with these emotional divorce cases.

DENNIS MYERS, "RENO NEWS AND REVIEW": Well, there was one family court judge. He was made available to us because, basically, the court system hasn`t been able to talk all this week, and they knew that we wanted a spokesperson. And he talked in a general sense about the problems that family court judges talk about -- the anger, the -- he talked about people who he believes have -- the judge, by the way, Judge Chuck McGee -- have true diagnosable mental disorders, paranoia, schizophrenia. That`s a quote.

He also mentioned -- he didn`t talk about the Mack case in detail, but he did mention that he had sat over Darren Mack`s first divorce, which he said, quote, "was also a donnybrook," unquote.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, you raise a very important point. This is not the first ugly divorce that this particular suspect has been involved in.

Let`s go out to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, who is standing by. Tell us what it says when a man undergoes not just one nasty divorce but two.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I mean, we know that Darren Mack did have a history because he went through a very contentious divorce in a prior marriage.

But I think what Jim Moret was saying about these judges being frightened and rightfully sometimes fearing for their lives -- let`s say you have an abuser coming into court, and he`s been used to controlling his wife and he`s had firm, tight control over her. And all of a sudden, there`s another man in charge. There`s the judge. What is he going to do? He`s going to feel destabilized. He`s going to become paranoid and perhaps even strike out at the third party, who he feels is intervening in his marriage, and that`s the judge.

And we know a lot of times, these men and sometimes women, they strike out at the children, as well. They use them as pawns. And what they`re trying to do is punish the spouse because they feel that the spouse has rejected them, is now bad and deserves to be punished.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, you raise so many important points. And I want to get to the ugliness of this particular divorce in a moment. But you`re talking about this man, Darren Mack. We are trying to understand him. He has dropped a lot of clues on the Internet. He was on a lot of different sites with personals, basically dating sites.

I want to read our viewers a quote of what he said about himself and ask to you analyze it because I think it`s absolutely fascinating. Darren Mack says, and get this, quote, "I am in great shape. I also have done a lot of work to become very present and grounded in life. I am successful and happy with my life, and I`m very fun-loving. I am looking for a woman who is very attractive, is very happy and complete with herself, who would like to be a partner and companion in exploring life together. Must not be controlling, jealous, mean or insecure. You must be open in communication, honest, affectionate, very sexual and adventurous, and fun to be with."

Well, first of all, Darren, if you`re watching, if you`re so present and communicative, please be present and communicate with the authorities who are trying to reach you right now.

But Bethany, what does it say about this guy? He seems to have a huge ego.

MARSHALL: Well, a few things come to mind. First of all, he says he`s just too much fun. That sounds very grandiose to me, like he`s the best boy on the block. He can do it better than anybody else. And you know, the fact that he said to his cousin, you know, Carry out the message, you know, if anything happens to me, as if he could actually bring the judge down -- that`s grandiose, as well. So I`m the best person, I`m grandiose, I can bring down the judge.

I think the other thing is that if he`s as disturbed as he seems to be, if he`s a sociopath, often these guys are highly sexualized, and so they do engage in unusual sexual activities to kind of heighten their excitement in life. And then also, he has a very idealized view of relationships, which is perhaps why he became so enraged at the fact that Charla could have left him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I was very struck with the fact that the woman he is seeking "must" be this and "must" be that. There doesn`t seem to be a lot of flexibility. Once somebody stops being what he wants them to be, watch out.

MARSHALL: She has to be perfect. And the minute she doesn`t pass muster, you know -- these guys often think the woman`s either all great and all wonderful or she`s all bad. So as long as he`s being flattered and idealized, she`s wonderful, but the minute she falls from grace, you know, she`s all bad and she deserves to be punished.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And once again, Darren Mack believed to be armed and dangerous. This is a very serious situation. This man is out there, possibly with a semi-automatic, which has not been found, which they believe was used to shoot the judge, who thankfully survived.

Let`s listen to the 911 call on that sniper shooting.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there was a gunshot from the parking garage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Be advised our computer is down. I`ve just been advised that we have shots fired, apparently a sniper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, there`s -- I think there`s going to be a sniper in a parking garage just north of the family court building.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been a gunshot. One of the judges has been shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the third floor, at Judge Weller`s chambers, he has been shot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They are looking for this man right now, a manhunt out there, massive manhunt.

Let`s go to "Inside Edition`s" Jim Moret because you have covered so many cases, I know, where somebody flees quite often to Mexico. I mean, we even have a graphic of some of the famous cases. Who could forget cosmetics heir Andrew Luster, who fled to Mexico, who was caught by "Mad Dog" Duane Chapman, the famous bounty hunter. And there`s a whole list of them -- Perry March, the Nashville attorney, he also went to Mexico. Who could forget Scott Peterson? This, by the way, the most wanted fugitives, and we`ll get to that in a second. But there are a whole bunch of guys who have fled to Mexico when they are being sought.

So what are your thoughts, Jim Moret, in terms of -- let`s say he had gotten to Sacramento. How does he get from Sacramento all the way south of the border to Mexico, if, in fact, that`s where he`s going?

MORET: Well, I mean, he could have gone any number of ways. The important thing to notice about the graphic and the individuals you mentioned is that they`ve been caught, and that`s really the important thing here. You have a person who`s profiled on this show and other shows. His face, as you see here on the screen, is being broadcast to tens of thousands, millions of people. People around the country and around the world will see this person, and that makes him an easier person to catch. That`s the important thing. You can run. You can`t hide. And basically, when the media is on it, as this show is on it right now, it`s very difficult for this person to hide.

You know, you were talking a few minutes ago about what this gentleman was looking for on the Internet, and he was, as you indicated, very specific, Jane. He was talking about wanting someone -- "You must not be controlling, jealous, mean or insecure. You must be no taller than 5 foot, 10 inches tall." This man is very specific, and he`s also being identified by authorities as a swinger, somebody who has traveled with young girlfriends around the country and also south of the border. So there is an indication that he may have, indeed, tried to flee to Mexico.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Private investigator Vito Colucci, hundreds of leads pouring in, the FBI now involved. But for us, the citizens, the activity`s largely invisible. What exactly is going on? We always hear about all this activity, but it`s behind the scenes.

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: That`s right, Jane. I can tell you this much, there`s great cooperation going on right now between Reno police and the FBI. They are not working against each other, as some people think, they are cooperating. They work parallel with each other. They`re following up every tip, every relative, every known acquaintance of this man. They`ve already interviewed or they`re watching these houses, if they do have a tip that he may show up there.

So you want the feds to be involved because, man, their manpower and knowledge, as well as the local police -- I did some research on Reno. I made a couple of phone calls. Excellent police department out there, but they`ve got additional help, and that is great, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s hope it works. Let`s hope that he is caught. Again, he`s believed to be armed and dangerous.

To tonight`s "Trial Tracking." The defense will get its chance to make their case in the trial of a husband accused of murdering his wife on the beaches of St. Augustine, Florida, 34-year-old Justin Barber facing first degree murder in the 2002 shooting death of his wife, April. The alleged motive? Millions in insurance money. The prosecution says Barber shot himself, shot himself four times, giving himself superficial wounds, so he could blame a random mugger for the attacks.

Also tonight, a California housewife convicted in the second degree murder of her psychotherapist husband, Susan Polk found guilty in the 2002 stabbing death of 70-year-old Felix Polk on the couple`s million-dollar property. Polk, who represented herself at trial, faces 16 years to life behind bars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... wanted in the homicide of his wife. Did find a deceased female identified as Charla Mack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight, who is at her little niece`s high school graduation and will be back on Monday. The manhunt continues for a 45-year-old a 45-year-old Reno, Nevada, husband. father and pawn shop owner. Darren Mack is on the run, suspected of shooting the family court judge presiding over his very ugly divorce battle. Thankfully, the judge survived. But Mack is also suspected of having knifed to death his wife.

Former federal prosecutor Pamela Davis, what happens now to the 8- year-old daughter whose mother is dead, whose dad is a fugitive? This girl, thankfully, said to be safe with family at an undisclosed location. Now, of course, we don`t know if her father`s guilty, but let`s assume for just a second that Mack is caught and convicted. How is the custody issue worked out through the courts?

DAVIS: Well, first of all, she`s not going back to her dad. Let`s get that straight right away. He has parents who are living, and I know that the daughter has some relationship with these parents. It`s a definite possibility that the little girl goes to live with his parents. However, what I don`t know is if Charla, his wife`s parents, are still living. And if they are, there is a greater likelihood that the daughter would be placed with her parents, rather than with his parents.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gosh, and the impact on the children is something awful in these cases.

Let`s go to Linda in Pennsylvania. Your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering if his parents and all of his kin -- are they being cooperative as far as, you know, asking questions and them revealing them? And would all of his family members -- can their phones be tapped in case he would try to call them?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Those are two excellent questions. Let`s go first to Dennis Myers, news editor of "The Reno News and Review." Are all the family members being cooperative, to your knowledge? We know the cousin, who got a call from Darren, has spoken publicly and is urging him to do the right thing.

MYERS: Absolutely. There`s been no indication at all that anyone, including on either side, is being uncooperative. I think everybody wants -- within the family, wants Darren Mack back here safely, and every indication we`ve had is that they are cooperating.

By the way, I`d like to make reference -- you said earlier that Interstate 80 is the highway from Reno to Sacramento. It is also the highway between downtown Reno and the Mack home. So there doesn`t necessarily need to be -- that doesn`t necessarily need to indicate where Darren was driving when those things were thrown out the window.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we were just trying to put together the pieces because he was -- there was evidence that he ultimately popped up in Sacramento. And of course, we`re all trying to figure it out. I mean, how does somebody simply disappear into thin air after creating this much chaos and this much confusion?

Obviously, this was somewhat planned. And that`s the fascinating thing about it, is that this man, while obviously snapping in some way, shape or form -- if he, in fact, has committed these crimes -- was also capable of doing some amazing planning, allegedly. And we`re going to get to that in just a moment.

To tonight`s Amber Alert, a 12-year-old girl missing in Greene County, Pennsylvania, the FBI joining the search for Gabrielle Beechen (ph), who disappeared after going for a ride on her all-terrain vehicle, investigators searching the family`s computers for any leads to where the young girl may have been going, Beechen`s family offering a reward for information leading to the return of their young daughter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he`s stopped by law enforcement, you know, he will be taken into custody, hopefully with the least amount of force necessary. However, everybody knows -- all law enforcement agencies throughout the state of California are on alert because he is armed and dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in for Nancy Grace, who is at a family event. Tonight, we`re focusing on the manhunt now in its fifth day for Darren Mack. He is the Reno businessman wanted in the shooting of a judge, who survived, thankfully, and the stabbing death of his wife, Charla. He is a hunter with access to guns and believed to be armed and dangerous.

Private investigator Vito Colucci, everybody is looking for him. So what if somebody out there sees him, let`s say in a car or store or anywhere? What should that citizen do to help authorities while keeping themselves safe?

COLUCCI: You don`t want to go anywhere near this individual, Jane. What you want to is get on the phone right away, you call the authorities and notify them. I`m also hoping that not only the surrounding states, Jane, I hope across the country, I hope all the police departments are aware of this guy`s face and his background, OK, because that`s very important. Some rookie cop on a routine traffic stop may see this guy. I want to make sure they know about it, as well as all the public that are watching your type of shows.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Shirley in Massachusetts. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, this person that was his friend upstairs with the little girl, can he be charged with, like, aiding and abetting or even an accessory before or after the fact?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent. Another very good question. What do you make of the fact that there was this friend there? He, by the way, has not been implicated whatsoever. But could he possibly face some legal issues?

COLUCCI: Excellent question. He was upstairs. It`s interesting, and there was a gap in time, Jane, something like three hours that elapsed. He came downstairs. His dog was covered in blood. It was really horrific. And then something like three hours went by. The police are going to put a lot of pressure on him to interview him. And if he makes any misstep along that way, he could technically be charged. And that`s a very good point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and you know, it`s just another example of how many lives are really impacted when a crime like this is committed. I mean, the wreckage that a person like this leaves is astounding, is it not, Doug?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, here what`s so bizarre is that you have a crime which can easily be categorized as one of intense passion, an up-close stabbing, and then a cold, calculated, apparently, sniper shooting from across the street -- the mixture of those two. A lot of the experts, even the ones on tonight, investigators and others, can tell you that seems like a pretty odd mixture to me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It sure is. And there`s a friend trying to help, and he just gets dragged into this, and his name into it, as well. It`s so sad.

We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help, in our own way, solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at 50-year- old Gracielo Vivero from Stockton, California, Gracielo found murdered in the Stockton area on October 15, 2001. If you have any information on Gracielo Vivero, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll- free 1-888-813-8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The warrant has been entered onto the National Crime Index, NCIC, so that any police officer in the United States that runs into Darren Mack and runs a warrant check will know that he`s wanted for the homicide here.

We will, of course, pursue all leads, and it doesn`t matter if they`re in this city or in another state. He is listed on NCIC as a suspect in the homicide of his wife, Charla, and he is wanted as a suspect in the shooting of Judge Weller.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace, who is at her little niece`s high school graduation, and she will be back here on Monday.

The FBI joining the intense search for an accused murderer from Reno, Nevada, suspected of shooting his family court judge and killing his estranged wife, all over a very, very bitter divorce battle. Let`s go straight out to Clark Goldband, who is our Nancy Grace information man. He has collected all the nasty tidbits about this very, very nasty divorce -- Clark?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Thanks, Jane. We spoke about this at the same time last night, how he owed spousal support to Charla. It was $10,000 a month, but things didn`t go exactly as planned. Let`s take a look at how the numbers break down.

He only paid Charla $9,000 of the $40,000 that was owed before declaring bankruptcy. So, out of that four months, not even 25 percent was paid. Withheld the payments on the first mortgage and the second mortgage. Withheld the utility money, so Charla and her family were in danger of having their power turned off, until a judge stepped in.

Now, Jane, get this: He sued Charla for a $200,000 ring he claims he let her borrow. She says it was a gift, and Darren also wanted a $13,000 Rolex back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, not surprisingly, his family members say that he was a good man, at one point. Let`s listen in to what they have to say about Darren Mack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just always had this -- such a positive mind. For this to have happened, he had to have been pushed to such an extent, to such a brink of despair, he felt he was losing everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, we`ve seen this so many times. Love turns to hate. It`s that thin line between love and hate, and this was really a terrible, toxic dance. What are your thoughts, because this is such a common phenomenon?

MARSHALL: Well, I mean, first of all, this relative says he was experiencing despair. I beg to differ: He was experiencing vitriolic hate, and he wanted her dead, and there`s a big difference.

And in terms of the thin line between love and hate, what we see with these really disturbed, primitive personalities is that they think that the other person is either all good or all bad. As long as you`re flattering me, admiring me, you`re in the house with me, you`re a good person, but the minute you think about leaving, you`re all bad, and I`m going to punish you.

And what we also know, in clinical circles, we say that these guys wear what`s called the mask of sanity. And the mask of sanity is that, on the surface, they look friendly, engaged, warm, outgoing. They`re glib; they`re charming. But deep down, there`s a lot of hatred that`s brewing beneath the surface, and I think he literally got destabilized, and I think his true nature came out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right. And you know what they say: We never know what happens behind closed doors.

MARSHALL: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But we did get a hint in just released court papers of the deceased woman, Charla Mack, his estranged wife, has a quote and she says, quote, "He is out to get me and, someday, he will probably kill me. When that happens, I want the world to know what a son of a (bleep) he is."

Now, I want to ask "Inside Edition`s" Jim Moret about that, because we`re now seeing the layers underneath this battle. What are your thoughts, having covered so many of these?

Look at the Susan Polk case. I mean, there are so many of these cases where husband and wife start out loving and end up in this kind of hatred, where the woman`s fearing for her life and actually predicts her own demise.

MORET: Well, but it`s even more than that. The hatred in this case, Jane, was mutual. He claims that she was going to kill him if he left, and he sought to get a restraining order when they first separated, and they settled on a mutual restraining order.

So, clearly, there was a great deal of animosity on both sides. And when you were listening to those numbers being broken down of the $10,000 a month that was owed for custody and alimony and so forth, court documents indicate this man made about half a million dollars a year and, as of a few years ago, he was worth nearly $10 million. So there`s some question about whether the bankruptcy was fraudulently filed or not.

You know, this is a man that did not apparently want to pay alimony, did not want to pay child support, wanted sole custody of their child, believing she should only be with him, did not want to be with this woman, and he claims that she threatened his life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, Doug Burns, defense attorney, we see this so much in these divorce cases. It`s irrational, because it`s a scorched- earth policy. You lose everything; you lose the kids; the wife is now deceased; the man is a fugitive. And wouldn`t it have been better to just lose a little money?

BURNS: Well, of course. I mean, husband and wife is the most emotionally charged legal relationship. The second one is landlord and tenant. I`m not kidding.

But the reality is, of course, everybody turns around and says, "Why don`t you just get divorced?"

I like Jim Moret`s point, though. That bankruptcy was clearly -- you see that all the time. You`re going to force me to pay this amount of money? Well, I`m going to file for bankruptcy. That`s what happened. He had a net worth of something like $9 million, as Jim pointed out.

But you`re right. Look, people wiser than I have said, you know, in criminal law you get bad people on their best behavior. Here it`s exactly the opposite, sometimes good people on their absolute worst behavior. This thing just absolutely spiraled out of control to horrific violence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Nancy from California, your question for us?

CALLER: Hi, I was wondering, does anyone know if Darren Mack is an experienced outdoorsman? Because there`s a lot of forest between Reno and Sacramento.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good question.

All right, Dennis Myers, news editor of the "Reno News and Review," we know that he`s believed to be armed and dangerous. We know he`s a hunter. Could he be stalking in the backwoods there?

MYERS: Oh, it`s possible. But while there is forest between here and Sacramento, it`s not very thick forest. If you fly over it in a helicopter, it is easy to spot vehicles. It is also easy to spot people.

And very little of it is long, thick stretches. There are mining camps. There are homes. There are all kinds of lumber camps, all kinds of things out there. It`s a relatively -- it`s not wilderness.

So I doubt that that`s a great -- I would go in the other direction, if that was what I was trying to do, is lose myself in the wilderness.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Interesting. Well, we don`t know where he is. It`s a mystery, and it`s even stumping the FBI at this point. Let`s go to Linda from South Carolina, your question for us tonight?

CALLER: Hi, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.

CALLER: My question is, if this man is so dangerous -- and I believe he is -- why is the reward only $2,500?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, that is a good question. And maybe I should throw that out to Vito Colucci, private investigator, because we know that, when there`s a manhunt on, sometimes we get bounty hunters involved. And sometimes the reward can be quite high if they`ve jumped bail, but this is not the case, right?

COLUCCI: That`s right. You won`t have any bounty hunters looking for this guy just because of that $2,500 amount.

What I think is going on here, I think that police are seeing total cooperation with the family and I believe the friends, OK? So I don`t believe a reward is going to spark anybody on this. I think the public that watches your show here, Jane, they want to put this guy away if they see him. So I don`t think on this case the reward is going to be anything that`s going to help the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I absolutely agree with you, but, as this drags on, that reward might grow, might get higher and higher. Let`s listen to what the cousin of Darren Mack told us that he had heard vis-a-vis his cousin, Darren Mack, being particularly angry at this judge in his latest divorce.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounded regular, which was not the way he was, which was not the Darren that I had known for 40 years. He was just obsessed with bringing this judge down, not physically. I never heard anything like that, but by reputation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Dennis Myers, news editor of the "Reno News and Review," you wrote an article about the anger toward this particular judge. Now, of course, this judge is not here to defend himself, and every judge at family court has some kind of controversy because these are such emotional cases, but, basically, minutia aside, what`s the bottom line with the controversy involving this judge?

MYERS: Well, I think you make a very good point, that he`s not here to defend himself. And the term that you used earlier is also very good, "scorched earth."

The anger that you see in family court is so intense frequently that people become a little bit unhinged. Some of the things that we saw posted about Judge Weller after he was shot were absolutely incredible. People wished for his demise, and a lot of them were people who had been through family court experiences.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have one arrest outstanding for Darren Mack for the crime of open murder with the use of a deadly weapon. Before anybody even asks, that has the potential -- has the potential, and I`ll say that several times, it has the potential of being a death penalty case under the state laws. I`m not saying it is a death penalty case. That`s way too early in the ball game. Other sentences possible are life in prison with or without the possibility of parole.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPH WATTS, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: ... saying it`s a Bushmaster gun, just like this, that Darren Mack used in his attempt to kill Judge Weller earlier this week. Now, I`m out here in a safe environment with (INAUDIBLE) sniper team, and they`re showing me how to use this gun safely and properly.

These guys resent the fact that people are calling Mack a sniper. Snipers save lives; they don`t take lives. Snipers protect people like you and me. And these are the guys that are going to take a guy like Mack off the streets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace tonight. We`ve been listening to the 911 calls made public in this week`s murder and attempted murder in Reno. Pawn shop owner Darren Mack on the run, the number-one suspect in the stabbing death of his wife and the shooting of a family court judge, who survived, we`re happy to say.

Let`s go straight out to NANCY GRACE producer extraordinaire Steph Watts. Steph, of course, once we learned that Mack allegedly shot Judge Weller from a distance of three football fields through a window and still managed to hit him in the chest, we sent you out to investigate sniper shooting. What did you find out?

WATTS: Well, Jane, it sounds like it`s a really far distance and it`s a really difficult thing to do. I went in there with absolutely no experience. And within an hour, Jane, I could hit a target the same distance that the judge was. It was three football fields. Within an hour, I had a bull`s eye. So I learned very quickly how to shoot, so it sounds like it`s a really difficult thing to do, but it`s actually not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s astounding to me is that the weapon that he is believed to have used, isn`t that the same weapon that was used in those infamous D.C.-area sniper attacks that left 10 people dead in 2002?

WATTS: Yes, that`s correct, Jane. And also I wanted to remind you that the families, six families and two survivors, sued this rifle maker and they won almost $2.5 million against the gun maker in that case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But apparently you can still buy this. And how much does it cost, and why is it legal?

WATTS: It`s $322, Jane, and 24 cents. And, you know, you can buy these kind of guns at Wal-Mart. Now, Wal-Mart doesn`t sell this kind of gun. They don`t sell Bushmills (ph). I want to make that very clear. But you can buy these guns anywhere, and they`re not illegal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`d you say, about $300, right?

WATTS: $322. And I just wanted to let you know, Jane, there was about 1,300,000 guns manufactured in 2004; 39 percent of the houses in America have guns; and there`s about 30,000 deaths last year from guns.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Pamela Davis, former federal prosecutor, you can buy this weapon for about $300. How many did it cost to clean up the chaos, the mayhem, and the tragedy that it created?

DAVIS: How much will it cost? It will cost the taxpayers thousands upon thousands of dollars. It will cost the taxpayers the cost of a prosecutor. It will cost them -- it may very well cost them the cost of a defense attorney, when Mack is arrested -- and he will be arrested -- but if he is, in fact, bankrupt, as he claims he is, then we`re going to have to also pick up that tab. We have to pay for the judge. It goes on, and on, and on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s truly astounding. Let`s hear what the suspect`s loved ones have to say about Darren Mack`s relationship with guns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has been licensed to carry a concealed weapon, for, my understanding, decades, you know, 15 to 20 years. And his comments to me is that, he had not been carrying his weapon for quite some time, but had been carrying it over the last year because he absolutely feared that his wife was going to make an attempt on his life, that, quote, "she was either going to shoot him or have him shot."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, I know you have something to say about this, the idea that the suspect had sort of pointed the finger at his wife and said, "Oh, I`m scared of her."

MARSHALL: Well, I have a couple thoughts about this. I mean, first of all, what you see with abusers is that they locate what`s in their mind into the other person`s mind, via something we called projection. "I`m going to put my thoughts into you. So I want to kill you, but I imagine that you`re going to want to kill me."

And if you talk to police and make domestic violence calls, they`ll often say that the person who was hitting the other person will say that they are being hit. So there`s a curious reversal.

And you see also in this case a strange mixture in that the crime with the judge appears to be much more premeditated, but, with the wife, it seems to be more of a crime of passion. What I was wondering is, as the whole time that he`s planning on killing the judge, which was very firmly rationalized that this was the right thing to do, if unconsciously at some level he was fantasizing about killing his wife and that finally erupted into some action.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And private investigator Vito Colucci, once somebody has allegedly gunned down two people, one of whom died, do you find in your experience that they sort of could develop the feeling, "Well, I have nothing to lose," and then become even more dangerous while they`re out there right now?

COLUCCI: Yes, that`s for sure, Jane. This man, his life is gone, OK, for all intents and purposes. I`ll be very surprised -- and this is just my feeling -- that when he`s surrounded or in a situation like that that he doesn`t commit suicide.

This guy is not for jail. He doesn`t want to go to jail. This is not a street thug, OK? I really feel he knows that he`s gone, maybe the death penalty. I`ll be very surprised if he doesn`t commit suicide, if he has an opportunity to do that.

They`ve got to be very careful. This guy, you have to go to -- he has different pawn shops. I`m sure the first day the police went there, saw how many guns from the manager are there, how many are missing, money, anything else of that nature, where you start building your case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brandy, your question, from Mississippi?

CALLER: Yes, I wondered, have the airlines been alerted about his flight risk? And would he be able to get through the airports with the fake ID?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jim Moret, chief correspondent for "Inside Edition," what do you have to say about that? Because we`re all wondering, where did he go? Last evidence of him seen in Sacramento, but there`s a theory that he might have fled the country.

MORET: Yes, there is, and it depends on when. You know, it`s very easy to buy a ticket nowadays, I mean, even with the heightened security. You can buy a ticket, and your name and face are not posted at the airports.

Clearly, there`s an APB out for him. Law enforcement knows to look for him, as was indicated, all of the police departments around the country. You know, there`s one other thing to bring up, and that is that this crime, with premeditation, this isn`t necessarily something that happened on that day.

The judge, when he was shot in the ambulance, told the folks in the ambulance that there was one angry person who had attacked him on the Internet and he gave him the name of Darren Mack, and Darren Mack is also suspected to be part of this harassment against the judge. So this is not something that happened just on Monday.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Holy moley, holy moley, we don`t know where the wife is? You got a judge shot, and nobody knows where the wife is? It`s a 45-year-old businessman out of the Reno, Nevada, area. His estranged wife has been found dead, stabbed to death.

But here`s my next question: Isn`t it true that he dragged her body a ways up the beach, then got in his car, and he drove quite a distance before deciding, "I`ll call 911"? How many houses did he pass before he decided to call for help for his wife, and where the hey was his cell phone? Hello?

Selmer, Tennessee, a highly popular Church of Christ minister shot dead inside the church parsonage. Just hours ago, a murder one indictment handed down by a Tennessee grand jury.

You do have statistics on your side. It is very rare for a woman to get the death penalty. It`s true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, yes, statistics say that, but of course, you know, the three kind of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics. So I don`t put a lot of faith in statistics.

What I do put a lot of faith in, though, Nancy, is the only people that do receive the death penalty are those that are convicted, and we don`t plan on that happening.

GRACE: Amy McElhenney now being charged with sex with a student. But here`s the catch: The high school student was 18 years old.

Elizabeth, I would like to see you in the principal`s office immediately following the show. I did not agree to that music.

Another teacher, sex with the student. What the hey?

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. She`s actually been charged...

GRACE: You think it`s funny?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry?

GRACE: You think it`s funny?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

GRACE: You laughed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry.

GRACE: It`s OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, we remember Army Sergeant First Class Gregory Rogers, an American hero. Rogers, 42, killed in Iraq. Rogers, a decorated soldier, received dozens of service medals during his 22-year career. Sergeant Gregory Rogers, tonight and always, an American hero.

We want to thank all our guests tonight for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking these important cases with us. I`m Jane Velez- Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace, who is at her little niece`s graduation. Nancy is back Monday night. We hope to see you then, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, have a terrific weekend.

END