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Nancy Grace
National Guard Called in to Keep the Peace in New Orleans
Aired June 20, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to New Orleans, after the bloodiest weekend in New Orleans criminal history for years. It all culminated in the murders of five innocent teenagers, crime so bad in the Big Easy that the state has called in the National Guard to keep the peace, a highly unusual move in U.S. legal history.
And tonight, Cleveland, Ohio. Citizens alert! Sitting Judge Eileen Gallagher throws a rape of a 9-year-old girl out of court. Why? Nothing to do with the evidence. This judge threw out the case because the prosecutor was late to court. Cleveland Judge Eileen Gallagher, you are in contempt!
And tonight, a special guest. CNN`s Anderson Cooper gives us a tiny sneak preview of his interview tonight with goodwill ambassador Hollywood star Angelina Jolie. And tonight, we are taking your calls.
But first to the National Guard rolling into New Orleans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The governor said she`s not going to allow, and my council members have said they`re not going to allow, and our community leaders said that they`re not going allow Hurricane Crime to replace Hurricane Katrina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In a very highly unusual move -- breaking news -- the National Guard is called into New Orleans, no, not because of Katrina, not because of national disaster, because of the crime rate.
Out to Trymaine Lee, reporter with "The New Orleans Times-Picayune." Welcome, Trymaine. What is going on?
TRYMAINE LEE, "TIMES-PICAYUNE": I think we`re seeing something unprecedented right now. You know, over the weekend, we had such a bloody weekend. But you know, I think it`s -- we have to keep in mind that these troops were -- the plan was in place before this bloody weekend, and now this is going to try help supplement the forces here in New Orleans on the ground.
GRACE: You know, Trymaine, if I may call you by your first name -- Trymaine Lee with us, reporter with "The New Orleans Times-Picayune" -- I love New Orleans so deeply, and it`s hard for me to imagine, after everyone surviving Katrina, now the city is being brought down by criminals, and it`s so bad you have to call in the National Guard, for Pete`s sake!
LEE: Yes. I think you have to keep in mind, as people struggle to put the pieces back together, a lot of these young men are back, trying to do the same thing. They`re out on the streets hustling, and unfortunately, they`re meeting with the deadly results, and they play -- they play to win.
GRACE: You know, Mr. Lee, I firmly believe that although you say the plan was in place, that this crime rate has really been culminated with the murders of five teenagers -- unheard of. What were the circumstances surrounding that?
LEE: It was about 4:00 AM in the morning that these five teenagers were kind of cruising through the Central City neighborhood when someone, a predator, set upon them and kind of just lit into the car, I mean, just -- an automatic weapon, they just fired, you know, repeatedly into the vehicle, killing all five.
GRACE: Well, why can`t Mayor Nagin handle the crime in his own city? Why does he have to have the National Guard?
LEE: See, we have to be careful in how we want to really put this -- how we want to portray it and put it in a certain context. We have to remember that although the city is largely evacuated, there are pockets here where people are slow returning. And as the drug market returns, then there will be crime. Some crime, I believe, is out of the hands of the police and the authorities, especially Mayor Nagin.
GRACE: But why? Why is crime out of the hands of police? I mean, is it that bad?
LEE: It`s not that bad. We`re about where we were kind of before Katrina, when we look at the numbers as far as the per capita numbers. But I think when you`re talking about parts of the city that were depressed before Katrina, now we have people that are struggling from, you know, the psychological and sociological trauma of Katrina, and now people are just scrambling, I think, trying to hold onto something tangible, something hard.
GRACE: With us, Trymaine Lee, reporter with "The New Orleans Times- Picayune." In an amazing move, almost unheard of, the National Guard called into New Orleans simply because of the crime rate.
Here is what the governor has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO (D), LOUISIANA: This week, we mourn the lives of five young children who were lost. Criminals, hear me loud. Hear me clearly. There is law and order in New Orleans, and we will make sure that we maintain law and order in this great city. Our troops and officers will help the New Orleans Police Department patrol the areas unoccupied due to Katrina that are being brought back to life. This will free up the New Orleans police to patrol the more populated areas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Here`s a sample of the very, very few times that the National Guard has been called in. Of course, you could go back to the 1800s, with the draft riots. But you`ve got `57, Little Rock, Arkansas, school integration riots, `65, the Watts riots out in LA, `70, Kent State, of course, `93, the National Guard called in to Waco, Texas, to battle Koresh and the Branch Davidians, 2001, post-9/11 security at airports and train station. We`ve all gotten kind of used to seeing that.
I want to go out to Councilwoman Stacy Head, New Orleans district B councilperson. Ma`am, it`s a real pleasure to have you with us. What is your response to having to call in the National Guard to control crime in your city?
COUNCILWOMAN STACY HEAD, NEW ORLEANS DISTRICT B: Well, thank you for having me, but I`d like to reiterate what Trymaine said. This is a plan that was actually in place before the crime wave that we had this weekend. In New Orleans, we have areas, unfortunately, of high concentrations of poverty and crime that were before Katrina. We also have areas since the storm that were not populated. And we just frankly needed support even before this weekend to have the National Guard watch over these areas where people aren`t back.
If you can imagine, when there aren`t people to protect their own property, predators do come in. So the National Guard is not really in a response to this weekend, but is a proactive measure by the mayor and the governor that just was stepped up because of the weekend`s crime.
GRACE: Well -- Councilwoman Stacy Head with us -- I hear what you`re saying, but most cities across the country do not have to call in the National Guard over the crime rate. Now, New Orleans...
HEAD: And no city has been like New Orleans. We have huge areas where there are no people back, but people still have their belongings. They have their grandmother`s rocking chairs. And unfortunately, there are people coming from Texas, from Georgia and other places in trucks that are still preying on these people and committing property crime.
So while saying that New Orleans is different than any other place because of the crime, that`s not -- that`s a little disingenuous. Really, we`re different because we`ve been decimated by Katrina.
GRACE: That`s not what I said! I said that I don`t know of other cities that call in the National Guard because of their escalating crime rate! That is what I said. Do you disagree with that, Councilperson?
HEAD: We are in a totally different situation than any other city because...
GRACE: So you do agree.
HEAD: ... of Katrina.
GRACE: Can you name another city that`s called in the National Guard because of their crime?
HEAD: Can I name another city that`s had Katrina?
GRACE: Yes. That wasn`t my question. So please don`t misportray what I am asking you. I`m very concerned about the crime rate. Before Katrina, New Orleans was in the top 10 of the highest crime rates in the city. The murder rate has climbed each month since Katrina.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a blue Ford Explorer had run into a telephone pole at that location and that there were three victims inside the car. All three had suffered multiple gunshot wounds (INAUDIBLE) the vehicle. It was also found, a 19-year-old lying on the corner of Josephine and Danneel on the lake uptown side, suffering from an apparent gunshot wound to the head. He was dead on the scene. And yet another victim was located in the 2000 block of Danneel, roughly 100 feet away, suffering from multiple gunshot wounds. That person was rushed to a local hospital, where we have been informed that he also expired. So we have five murders at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judging from the scene, right now, we`re looking at a possible motive -- and let me reiterate that -- a possible motive of retaliation and may be drug-related simply because of the tremendous loss of life (INAUDIBLE) young men. It`s incredible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Since the beginning of 2006, 53 murders in New Orleans, six murders this weekend alone, five of those murder victims teenagers.
To retired major of the New Orleans Police Department Howard Robertson. Sir, thank you for being with us. Why do you believe the National Guard troops have been called in?
HOWARD ROBERTSON, RETIRED MAJ., NEW ORLEANS POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, my main belief is that the city needs to rebuild, and it brought the National Guard in not necessarily for the crime rate, but to make the people who are not here yet feel safe, so that they can come back and start rebuilding their homes. There are large, large populations where people come in during the day to rebuild their houses, and then leave at night because there`s no electricity and water yet. And what`s happening is those homes are being broken into and their tools are being stolen, refrigerators, stoves and things are being stolen. So not only were they a victim of the flood, but when they come back, they`re a victim of a crime. When that happens, the people are saying, I`m out of here. I`m gone. If you`re going to rebuild a city, you got to be able to have it safe for them.
GRACE: Well, I`m not criticizing, believe me. I agree with Councilperson Stacy Head about calling in the National Guard. It`s just amazing to me. This is a very unusual move legally to call in the National Guard simply because of your crime rate. And to retired major of the New Orleans Police Department Howard Robertson, I hear what you`re saying about continued looting and isolated pockets of the area, but I`m not talking about looting. I`m talking about 53 murders since January! That is astounding! This is the bloodiest weekend in New Orleans history.
ROBERTSON: Nancy, let me put out a couple of things from my perspective. The first thing that I`m concerned about is everybody thinks the National Guard`s going to be a panacea and solve the crime problem, and they`re not.
And the thing that I`m worried about most is, New Orleans has one third of the population that it had before Katrina. What happens when the rest of the population comes back? If the police department can`t handle the crime now, what are they going to do when the rest of the people come back? And we know a lot of the criminal element that lived in New Orleans are in Houston now, and Houston`s murder rate`s up, and other parts of the country. When they return to New Orleans, we know the crime rate`s going to go back.
And the National Guard can`t come in and take over the city. That`s got to be something that everybody should be looking and addressing right now. One more thing I want to make really clear.
GRACE: OK.
ROBERTSON: Everybody keeps saying these innocent juveniles...
GRACE: Oh, oh, oh, wa, wa, wa, wa, wa-wait! You didn`t say hear me say they were innocent juveniles! No, no, no, no, no, no! You`re committing perjury, sir!
ROBERTSON: I heard that in the opening remarks.
GRACE: I said they were teenagers!
ROBERTSON: OK. The opening remarks of this program said five innocent children, and...
GRACE: No, sir, they did not! We did not!
ROBERTSON: OK. OK.
GRACE: We said five teenagers, capped off by a sixth murder victim over the weekend.
ROBERTSON: Let me just make it clear that those five, although they were juveniles, 14 years old, were implicated in alleged drive-by shooting a couple of days before. They were arrested. The district attorney, Paul Carney (ph), could not prosecute because the victims would not cooperate with the prosecution, and he had to end up dropping charges. As it appears now that as a retaliation, those five were killed.
You`ve got to look at 14-year-old kids out at 4:00 o`clock in the morning with no parental guidance, involved in guns and drugs, and they end up being killed.
GRACE: Well, you`re absolutely right. They deserved to die!
ROBERTSON: No. No.
GRACE: The death penalty is fully functioning in New Orleans, now that you put it like that!
ROBERTSON: I`m not saying they deserved to die, but I`m saying that they were part of the drug culture, they`re part of the crime culture that is regrowing in New Orleans, that left with Katrina, that is regrowing in New Orleans. And now`s the time to address that.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got a question for you...
ROBERTSON: Go ahead.
GRACE: ... Major Robertson. At the time that these teenagers were gunned down, five teenagers, were they attacking anyone? Did they have their guns drawn? Were they threatening anyone?
ROBERTSON: I can`t answer that, but to my knowledge, no.
GRACE: OK. I`m going go out to Randy Zelin, defense attorney. What legal powers do the National Guard have in a situation like this?
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, on the one hand, you would think that there is a clear line which prohibits the government calling in the National Guard to act as law enforcement, and from a practical standpoint, it makes sense. Their knowledge of the community, their knowledge of investigations, their knowledge of mobilizing the community to prevent crime -- are we talking about trying to instill fear or instill confidence? To me, that`s the biggest issue. And what`s happening is, to get around the prohibition against using the military to engage in law enforcement...
GRACE: OK...
ZELIN: ... you call in the state National Guard. And to me, it`s sending a terrible message.
GRACE: To Trymaine Lee, reporter with "The New Orleans Times- Picayune." Mr. Lee, what will the National Guard be doing, exactly, in your city.
LEE: The National Guard will be in places -- sections of the city that were hit hardest by Katrina, the lower 9th ward, sections of the 3rd district, Lakeview, and also in New Orleans East to give the NOPD and opportunity to focus on hotspots in the city. Right now, police have to cover so much ground, covering property, and now, hopefully, I guess, the NOPD is hoping that they`ll be able to cover the people and the spots where the drug market is returning and we`re seeing some violence creep back in.
GRACE: Mr. Lee, will they have powers of arrest?
LEE: I don`t believe so. I believe that they`re in place, again, just to cover property and to make sure that, you know, the looters are at bay and NOPD can focus on, you know, crime within the city.
GRACE: Will they be armed?
LEE: Yes, they will.
GRACE: Very quickly, everyone, quick break. To tonight`s "Case Alert." North Carolina district attorney Mike Nifong fights back in the Duke rape investigation. In an e-mail to "Newsweek" magazine, Nifong stands by the Duke rape indictments, charges against Duke University lacrosse players. The DA blasts the defense team for spoon-feeding, he says, one side and false information to the media, the defense now going so far as to demand Nifong remove himself from the case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE EILEEN GALLAGHER, CUYAHOGA COUNTY: I firmly believe I did nothing inappropriate, and I am prepared to hear the case and render a verdict on the evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Make no mistake about it, this case will be reinstated, whether it`s through an appeal or us refiling the case. This little girl is going to get her justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Cleveland, wake up and smell the coffee! March yourself straight to the polls and vote! I`m talking about judicial elections. A sitting judge, Judge Eileen Gallagher, who will be joining us shortly to give us her side of the story, has thrown a rape case out of court. The victim at the time of the alleged rape was just 9 years old. It took her six years to work up the courage to come forward with the rape charge. Why did the judge throw the case out of court? She says because the prosecutor was late to court.
Let`s go out to Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. Please tell me I`m wrong on the facts.
LESLIE SNADOWSKY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: No, unfortunately, you`re not. The prosecutor was 45 minutes late, and she just dismissed the whole case. I mean, it was pretty unheard of, Nancy.
GRACE: You know, joining us now, Judge Margaret Finerty. She is a panel member of our "Star Chamber." Judge Finerty, isn`t it true that there are many, many other alternatives, other than throwing the case out, such as holding the attorney in contempt, making them pay a fine, if you want to file a bar complaint, that`s fine, you can reprimand them in court. There are a lot of alternatives to throwing the case out of court, especially a felony rape case!
MARGARET FINERTY, FORMER JUDGE: Yes, there are many options, Nancy. You`ve named quite a few of them. But throwing the case out is not an option. It makes absolutely no sense. First of all, the lawyer may have had a good reason for being late. But even if he didn`t, why do you penalize the victim? Why do you penalize the people of the community by dismissing such a serious case?
GRACE: Joining us right now, Judge Eileen Gallagher. She is with the common pleas bench in Ohio. Judge Gallagher, thank you for being with us.
JUDGE EILEEN GALLAGHER: Good evening, Miss Grace.
GRACE: Why did you throw the case out of court?
GALLAGHER: The case was originally set for trial at 9:00 o`clock that morning, and the state`s witness, the alleged victim in this case, did not appear at the court until nearly 11:00 o`clock in the morning. After we conducted some conferences in chambers, the trial was reset for 1:00 o`clock in the afternoon. The prosecutor failed to appear at that time. And quite frankly, I don`t know if the victim was around, either. The case was called for trial. The state was not prepared to proceed, and...
GRACE: How do you know the state was not prepared if the state wasn`t there?
GALLAGHER: Well, they weren`t there.
GRACE: So they...
(CROSSTALK)
GALLAGHER: They weren`t prepared to...
GRACE: And you don`t know if the victim was there or not.
GRACE: She was there two hours late in the morning. I don`t know where she was in the afternoon.
GRACE: So for all you know, she was waiting at home.
GALLAGHER: She could have been.
GRACE: OK. Well, actually, something that you mentioned, it`s a quote from you, Judge -- "You don`t show up, too bad. Don`t treat me like a punk and not show up in court without giving us the courtesy of notifying us where you are." And you`re talking about the prosecutor.
GALLAGHER: Right.
GRACE: Why did you throw the case out because the prosecutor was late?
GALLAGHER: Well, the prosecutor presents the state -- presents the case on behalf of the state of Ohio. He wasn`t there. There`s no one else to handle his case.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, Judge, I`m looking at the case summary, and you have already allowed not one, two, three, four, five, but six continuances on this case. Six times, you have allowed further notices. So instead of reprimanding the lawyer, you thought it was better to throw out a rape case, where the victim was 9 years old?
GALLAGHER: Well, We take all of our felony cases very seriously here, and if you want to know what happened with those continuances, they were granted because the state of Ohio, the prosecutor, failed to provide discovery for the defense. Also during that same timeframe, the prosecutor`s father was very ill and unfortunately died at a very young age. We were extremely accommodating to him.
GRACE: So your answer is to throw the case out of court?
GALLAGHER: Well, you`re suggesting that I granted continuances improperly. The only continuance made by the court was after I had lasix eye surgery and couldn`t see for two months. And that was the only time that the court continued the case. The state of Ohio failed to, again, play by the rules in providing discovery to the defense, and that was...
GRACE: Sounds like a whole lot of excuses! And your answer was to punish a 9-year-old victim!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: (INAUDIBLE) was absolutely unprofessional. They never called, and had they called, it certainly would have been a different situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A Cleveland sitting judge, Judge Eileen Gallagher, throws out a felony rape case. At the time of the alleged rape, the victim just 9 years old. Why? Because the prosecution was late to court. And there`s no doubt about that. The state was late to court. But throw out a rape case, for Pete`s sake?
Elizabeth, do we still have the judge with us? Judge, thank you for staying with us. I have in my hand a motion filed by the defense, and this is a response to the Department of Family Services. And in this, it states that you, the court, acknowledged this little girl victim had, quote, "credibility problems." Did you say that?
GALLAGHER: What I said was, because I had to review those documents in camera alone, and in order to provide them to the defense, I have to provide a reason why they should be given to the defense. And in view of the fact that this child had made a number of inconsistent statements to the Department of Children and Family Services, those documents were then turned over to the defense.
GRACE: Well, isn`t that the reason you turned over the documents, the fact that the alleged victim made inconsistent statements? That`s a part of Brady -- in other words, evidence that could help the defense.
GALLAGHER: Right.
GRACE: She makes inconsistent statements. But why do you take it upon yourself to comment this child had credibility problems? Isn`t that the sole province of the jury?
GALLAGHER: Well, it is and it isn`t. I had...
GRACE: Then why did you comment on it?
GALLAGHER: It`s apples and oranges here, Nancy. I have to do those in-camera inspections of records, and thereafter, if I hear the case, I have to rule a verdict based upon the evidence presented in the courtroom only.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am. I understand that. And I understand that you must hand over inconsistent statements, if they exist, but to comment on the victim`s credibility?
GALLAGHER: I had to tell them why...
GRACE: Is that grounds for recusal?
GALLAGHER: ... I was giving them those documents.
GRACE: Because of inconsistent statements. You didn`t have to go the extra mile and comment on the girl`s credibility, did you?
GALLAGHER: I did not comment on her credibility. I said that there were inconsistencies in her statement.
GRACE: Well, that`s not what this filing says.
GALLAGHER: Well, I...
GRACE: Both the state and the defense agree that you said that.
GALLAGHER: Well...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK SCHNEIDER, ASST. PROSECUTOR, CUYAHOGA COUNTY: Make no mistake about it: This case will be reinstated, whether it`s through an appeal or us refilling the case. This little girl is going get her justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I want to go straight back out to a principal in this case, Mark Schneider, the assistant prosecutor. Sir, could you please explain why your case was thrown out of court?
SCHNEIDER: ... thrown out of court because a judge made a ruling from the bench about a victim`s credibility, a nine-year-old rape victim who was brutally assaulted, before she had taken one piece of evidence. That`s what this boils down to. We were just trying to get this girl a fair trial.
GRACE: OK, hold on just one moment. We had a problem with your satellite feed. Could you repeat that, sir?
SCHNEIDER: This case was thrown out of court because a judge made an opinion known that she had of a victim, that she thought a nine-year-old brutally-raped victim was unbelievable, and she made that known before she had taken one piece of evidence. Every action we took from that point forward was to give this girl the fair trial she deserved.
GRACE: Now, sir, let me just play devil`s advocate here for just one moment, as the judge has been kind enough to come on the show and be held in contempt, why were you late for court?
SCHNEIDER: At 12:00, after the judge had made her opinion known on a prior occasion, the defense only then decided to try their case to the one person who had already rendered an opinion. At that point...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Let`s explain that to the viewers. Bottom line: You claim -- and I`m talking to the prosecutor in this case - - you claim that, after the judge stated this girl had credibility problems, a nine-year-old little girl, suddenly the defense wanted a bench trial. In other words, they didn`t want a jury anymore, right?
SCHNEIDER: That`s correct.
GRACE: OK, then what happened?
SCHNEIDER: And they wanted that judge, who had already stated her opinion, to determine guilt or innocence in this case. At that point, we`re faced with a two-edged sword. We could go forward and let this case get thrown out of court by this judge or we could seek to get this girl a fair trail. We could seek to get this girl justice.
When I turned to that girl and explained the consequences, she asked me to fight for her, and I wasn`t about to let her down. And this office wasn`t going to let her down.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, Mr. Schneider. With us, Mark Schneider, assistant prosecutor there in Cleveland, are you telling me the girl was in court? Because Judge Gallagher seems to have a concern the girl didn`t show up to prosecute.
SCHNEIDER: This case was set for trial six times. Two of those continuances were occasioned by the state; the other four were by either the court or the defense. In fact, we had been on hold due to the defense`s unavailability for four days.
It was set for a jury trial. That victim was ready to appear in court as early as 10:00 once we picked a jury. It was only after the judge had heard from the victim -- she knew the victim was there -- that the defense wanted to have the judge decide this case. And at that point, we were set to scramble and fight for this little girl.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Justin in Utah, welcome.
CALLER: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Well, my question is, you know, every time a judge makes a decision, no matter how absurd it is, it sets a precedent for the future. And I`m wondering if future defendants will be able to use this to their advantage?
GRACE: Oh, well, I can promise you that, Justin. Even if this wouldn`t go up on appeal, which it will by the state -- and, in fact, the prosecution has already filed an appeal of this -- yes, it not only sets precedent, if it goes up on appeal, but other defense attorneys hear about it and mimic it. You`re exactly right, Justin in Utah.
Let`s go to Anna in Indiana. Hi, Anna.
CALLER: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: I want to know how this judge would feel if that was her daughter or granddaughter, how she would feel in a case like this if it got thrown out. This is absurd; I can`t believe this.
GRACE: Judge Gallagher, how would you feel if your daughter or granddaughter was waiting out in the hall, and you threw the case out because the prosecution was late?
GALLAGHER: I would feel very angry at the prosecuting attorney for failing to do his job.
GRACE: But he was just late. I don`t understand why you keep saying he`s not doing his job.
(CROSSTALK)
GALLAGHER: He`s being disingenuous in claiming that they were filing an appeal. No appeal was filed until three days after this case was dismissed. And it`s a bald-faced lie for them to say that they called the court to tell us where they were. No one called my courtroom.
GRACE: But doesn`t it really even matter, Judge Gallagher? Does it matter if they were late? Does it matter if they didn`t call you? You took it out on a little girl, on her case. Why not take it out on the prosecution? Why not hold him in contempt? Why not charge him a fine?
GALLAGHER: This is a court of law where there are rules, and rules are necessary for organized society. And the court has an obligation...
GRACE: To seek justice.
GALLAGHER: ... to make sure that due process of law is followed.
GRACE: To seek justice, Judge. Why couldn`t you hold the prosecution in contempt? Why did you have to throw out the case?
GALLAGHER: I certainly could have held him in contempt; I could have put him in jail; I could have fined him, and he would have had to answer to the Supreme Court of Ohio...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What`s wrong with that?
GALLAGHER: The fact of the matter is, Nancy, no rapist was set free here. He`s been on bond since September 15th.
GRACE: No, I`m asking you why you threw the case out. Why didn`t you just hold the prosecution in contempt? What`s wrong with him answering to a Supreme Court?
GALLAGHER: Well, his license is on the line, in that case.
GRACE: So could you answer my question?
(CROSSTALK)
GALLAGHER: ... I should have. However, the prosecutor is failing to shoulder any responsibility for his behavior. He is the victim`s advocate. He represents the state. He failed. He failed.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Judge, he`s not the one that threw the case out.
(CROSSTALK)
GALLAGHER: ... appear in court, Nancy, what would be the consequences?
GRACE: Well, if I didn`t show up to court on time, the judge would call my chambers. And then, if I was flagrantly refusing to come to court, they would call the elected district attorney and have another D.A. sent to the courtroom. And if that didn`t work, I would likely be held in contempt.
But in no way do I believe that one of the judges I practiced in front of would take it out on an innocent victim the way that you did.
GALLAGHER: This case could easily be re-filed.
GRACE: So what?
GALLAGHER: They could immediately...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You threw out the case. So what if it can be re-filed? And isn`t it true that you have now agreed that, if it is re-filed, you`ll recuse yourself?
GALLAGHER: If the state is of that opinion that they can`t get a fair trial from me, I will recuse myself in this matter.
GRACE: Joining us right now is the defense attorney in this case, a veteran trial lawyer, as well, Rufus Simms. Mr. Simms, thank you for being with us. I think I`ve got Mr. Sims. Are you there, sir?
RUFUS SIMMS, CRAIG`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m here.
GRACE: Hi. Thank you for being with us, sir.
SIMMS: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Hey, I`m not up there. Look at the camera.
SIMMS: OK. Got you. Sorry. Hi!
GRACE: Hello, Mr. Simms. Thank you for being with us.
SIMMS: Sure.
GRACE: Mr. Simms, is it true that the judge made a comment about this nine-year-old girl`s alleged credibility?
SIMMS: Yes, it is true that this nine-year-old victim made inconsistent statements in the records at issue.
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you.
SIMMS: Inconsistent...
GRACE: I asked you if the judge commented on her credibility.
SIMMS: No, she didn`t. No, she made an observation regarding the inconsistency of the statements.
GRACE: What was the observation she made, sir?
SIMMS: That this victim made inconsistent statements and her credibility was an issue. The judge had to justify releasing the records to the defense.
GRACE: Yes, sir. Mr. Simms...
SIMMS: She just couldn`t willy-nilly release the records to me.
GRACE: Mr. Simms, Mr. Simms, Mr. Simms, I`m a veteran trial lawyer just like you. And when a judge hands over typically secret documents for a reason, such as there being inconsistent statements, that`s all well and good.
SIMMS: That`s right.
GRACE: But the judge is not to comment on credibility, ever. That is the sole province of the jury.
SIMMS: Well, if you are a trained trial lawyer like you are saying, you understand that all cases involve credibility of witnesses, every case involves it.
GRACE: Yes, but that`s for the jury, not the judge, to comment on.
SIMMS: The judge didn`t make a decision regarding whether or not this girl was sexually assaulted. She never did.
GRACE: Well, sir, I`m looking at the motion that you filed.
SIMMS: OK. That`s fine.
GRACE: Mr. Simms, bar number right here.
SIMMS: Yes, right.
GRACE: And you`ve been around the block. You`ve had a lot of trials. I know that for a fact. And you state the court says the alleged victim has credibility problems. Totally inappropriate.
SIMMS: You`re misstating what the real issue is here.
GRACE: No, I`m stating what your motion says.
SIMMS: Yes, you are. You are. The judge never made a decision regarding whether or not this young lady was sexually assaulted.
GRACE: It doesn`t matter. A judge should not comment on the credibility of a witness.
SIMMS: The judge had to justify releasing the records to me.
GRACE: Yes, and that justification...
SIMMS: That`s the point that you don`t understand and the point that you`re missing.
GRACE: OK. Well, you know what? You earned your paycheck. You got the judge to let your client off because the prosecution was late.
SIMMS: My client was presumed innocent.
GRACE: So you earned your paycheck.
SIMMS: He is presumed innocent, Nancy. He is presumed innocent at these proceedings.
GRACE: Yes, I appreciate your sermon, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Now I`m going to go back to the prosecutor, Mark Schneider. Sir, do you intend to re-file? And is the judge correct that you didn`t file an appeal that day? What were you doing in your office?
SCHNEIDER: Nancy, we`ve given you a copy of the extraordinary writ that we were prepared to file at that time, that we had spent that noon hour preparing. It includes an affidavit by myself, as well as Mr. Simms` motion, quoting the judge rendering an opinion of the victim`s credibility.
We were ready to go forward. Had we set foot in that courtroom before that motion was filed, this victim was not going get justice that day.
GRACE: People of Cleveland, you have the power. Vote.
(NEWSBREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to know about this announcement. Why? Why did they do that? Why did they allow this announcement to be made and the families to be tortured even more?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, that`s a good question. That`s a question we`d asked today, I asked today. It was asked last night, as well.
Let me tell you what they said last night, or I should say this morning at about 3:07 when they finally came forward with the information they`d had for several hours. They said, "Well, look, yes, we knew it at 12:30 a.m. or so."
Let me quickly give you the time line. Around 11:45, the families break out into elation, because they get a bunch of calls from people who have been working on this rescue effort, calls made on cell phones saying, "You know what? The 12 people have been found alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Anderson Cooper with us tonight, a special guest. I`m going get to his book in a moment, "Dispatches from the Edge." But you all have seen Anderson through thick and thin, through the tsunami, through Katrina, through so many important stories to our country, and now a major interview for him and it is tonight with Angelina Jolie.
Why the interview? Please tell me it`s not about Shiloh Nouvelle, the baby.
COOPER: No, it wasn`t. It wasn`t.
GRACE: OK.
COOPER: We do talk about it, and she brought it up, but it`s really about the 50 million refugees around the world and displaced people, people who tonight, as we sit here and as people are at home watching in their homes, aren`t at home and can`t get home because wars, and persecution, and all sorts of reasons.
And she has -- say what you will about her, she has dedicated much of the last five years to going, seeing, talking to these people, and hearing their stories, and trying to get the world to pay attention to these people. And half of them are children we`re talking about, 7.5 million children out there who are without a home tonight.
GRACE: Anderson, you have had a lot of time to talk to her. You know, she has it all. She`s beautiful. She`s rich. She could live in the lap of luxury if she wanted to, but instead she`s devoting so much to help other people. What is her motivation?
COOPER: She gives, she says, a third of her income to refugees and other causes around the world. She says she was fundamentally changed back in around 2001. She went to Sierra Leone in Africa. She saw a three-year- old girl whose hands were cut off -- both her hands were cut off -- and talked to people and heard these horrific stories.
And she said, you know, once you have seen that, once you have heard those stories, you`ve seen, you`ve looked in those people`s eyes, you can`t go back to the way things were. You can`t go back to your Hollywood life.
And, you know, you can go back and do the work, but she realized that she was able to use her celebrity to try to get attention for causes. And even in this interview -- which is, you know, I`m sure there were a lot of news organizations begging her for interviews, and she came us to because she knew we would do a serious job with it, we would talk about the issues, which are important, but she knew she wanted to use this interview to get attention on some causes.
So it wasn`t -- she has no movie to promote. You know, I don`t even know what her next film is. And you find that...
GRACE: "Good Shepherd."
COOPER: Is that what it -- there you go. I didn`t know that.
GRACE: Get with it, Anderson.
COOPER: You get that with a lot of celebrities. You know, they`re talking about their cause, but they`re also pitching their movie. She`s not doing any of that. She`s pitching, you know, 50 million people who are in need of help.
GRACE: You know, you said something interesting that I disagree with: People can turn the other way. They do it every day.
COOPER: That`s true.
GRACE: And celebrities, stars can go overseas to, you know, see our troops and see the poverty where they are, and they manage to turn the other way and come back to their Hollywood lifestyle. Everyday people do it. Here in New York people do it, walk by beggars on the street, and you just keep on walking.
COOPER: Yes.
GRACE: I`m really amazed...
COOPER: But I think...
GRACE: And I am definitely a Team Aniston, OK? I am so knocked her out by her caring about these people and doing something about it.
COOPER: Yes, you know, I think a lot of people turn away because they feel like they can`t do something about it, like it feels overwhelming to them, they can`t make a difference. She feels -- and she has seen that individuals can make a difference, that all of us can make a difference in some ways, and she certainly has made a difference already in the lives of an awful lot of people.
GRACE: Anderson Cooper with the one-on-one interview with Angelina Jolie, not about her Hollywood lifestyle...
COOPER: I love the way you say her name, too, "Angelina Jolie."
GRACE: I majored in French. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
Long story short, it`s not just about her next movie or her lifestyle.
COOPER: We don`t talk about her movies at all.
GRACE: It is about helping other people. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: What was it like actually giving birth? I mean, you`ve had two children through adoption. What was it like?
ANGELINA JOLIE, ACTRESS, U.N. GOODWILL AMBASSADOR: We ended up having -- she was in breach, so I ended up having a caesarean, so it was very quick. It was and...
COOPER: Brad was in the operating room?
JOLIE: He was in the operating room, yes, yes. And we had amazing doctors, and everybody was so lovely. And, you know, you`re just -- because you`re there for the birth, which I wasn`t for my first two kids, you`re just suddenly terrified that they`re not going to take a first breath.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Anderson, you in your book you outline so much about "Dispatches from the Edge," so much going on in our world. Why do we need a celebrity to remind us of the sufferings of other people?
COOPER: Well, you know, it`s the way our culture works. I mean, people pay attention when celebrities talk. And, you know, you can fight it or you can do what she does which is, you know, use that fact. And, frankly, if it takes a celebrity for people to pay attention what`s going on with the Congo right now or...
GRACE: Yes, power to them.
COOPER: More power to them, fine. And, by the way, you know, I think she, you know, deserves an award for what she`s doing, but I also just want to congratulate you for the award that you got, the Gracie Award last night.
You laugh, but that`s a major thing, and it`s a real accomplishment. And I think it`s well-deserved. So I just wanted to say congratulations.
GRACE: Thank you. You didn`t have to say that.
Let`s go to Angela in Pennsylvania. What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is for Anderson. I`m wondering how he`s holding up after spending so much time in New Orleans...
GRACE: Good question.
CALLER: ... and all of the horror that he`s seen. My prayers are with him. He seems to be a very sensitive young man and perfect gentleman.
GRACE: Well, I`m going throw it to him, dear, because we`re running out of time.
COOPER: I appreciate the question. You know, it`s not me who needs the prayers; it`s the people in New Orleans and the people of the Gulf Coast, Mississippi, because, you know, the storm winds of Katrina are still blowing for them.
And I was there two weeks ago. I`m going back there Monday. And, you know, I believe in keeping going back and keep telling that story, because it`s so easy for -- you know, other people in the media may have moved on from it, but people in New Orleans have not been able to move on.
And there are people spread around in the United States, again, not in their homes tonight because New Orleans is their home. So I appreciate the thought, but, you know, it`s the people there we need to think about, because they`re the ones still struggling.
GRACE: Your interview with Angelina Jolie tonight at 10:00 Eastern. We`ll all be tuning in.
But before I let you go, it`s a rare opportunity that he is not in some far-flung spot in the world in the midst of a crisis. Anderson, about you, what would you say is the most difficult thing you`ve had to overcome to be what you are today?
COOPER: Gosh, I don`t know. You know, I think we all have, you know, things that we`ve overcome. I mean, for me, you know, I write in the book a lot about early losses I experienced, my dad and my brother, and those are things which certainly -- you know, grief is something that`s very isolating, but it`s really a bond that all of us share. And I think it`s something that can bind us to one another.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, a story close to our hearts, a story we covered here on NANCY GRACE, last year`s brutal murder of a beautiful nine-year-old little girl from Florida, Jesse Lunsford, the girl in the pink hat. Her father, Mark Lunsford, now fighting for even tougher sex offender laws.
Tonight, congratulations to Mark Lunsford, outstanding recipient of the prestigious Jefferson Award. Mark Lunsford, you are a true hero.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: We`re not giving up on Jessica Marie Lunsford, the nine-year- old little Florida girl. Please help us. Nine-year-old Jessica Marie Lunsford still missing, last seen wearing a pink nightgown, no shoes.
MARK LUNSFORD, DAUGHTER JESSICA ABDUCTED AND MURDERED: Couey is a pathological liar. He`s a piece of (bleep). Sorry, but it`s the truth. And if he was so willing to leave Jesse alone and free to go as she wanted to, then why did he tie her up and put her in a hole?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the hours after Mark learned of his little girl`s murder, he made a decision to channel anger into change.
LUNSFORD: And it really concerns me that they would let something this horrible go on for so many years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man who did not know the meaning of the word "legislator" set off on a cross-country blitz, determined to toughen local and federal sex offender laws.
LUNSFORD: The little girl in Fort Lauderdale, the little boy in (INAUDIBLE) those are the reasons I did it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For 15 months, Mark has pushed aside his personal pain and pressed lawmakers to adopt the Jessica Lunsford Act.
LUNSFORD: Is this what you want happen to your children? Call your lawmakers. I`m doing it for Jesse, because she`s the one that paid the price.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And speaking of awards, Nancy, our whole staff wants to congratulate you for winning a Gracie Award last night for outstanding talk show, for your Court TV special, not only to the audience, but to our whole staff, you`re our inspiration. And we all love you. And we wanted to say...
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: Congratulations, friend!
GRACE: Thank you to my staff. Tonight, we remember Private First Class Joseph Love Fowler, just 22, killed, Iraq, from Alaska. He once rollerbladed from the North Pole to Fairbanks and back. His family says he had great hopes of studying architecture. Tonight, Joseph Love Fowler, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests, and thank you to you for being with us. Nancy Grace, signing off. Good night, friend.
END
