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The Situation Room
Eight U.S. Soldiers Charged in Death of Iraqi Man; President Bush on the Rebound?
Aired June 21, 2006 - 15:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
COL. STEWART NAVARRE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: As a result on 12 May, 2006, 11 Marines and one sailor were removed from their unit, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, and reassigned to the battalion headquarters at Camp Fallujah.
They are restricted to their living quarters, pending their redeployment to Camp Pendleton, where the 5th Marine Regiment is located.
On May 24, 2006, they arrived at Camp Pendleton. Seven Marines and one corpsman were placed in pretrial confinement in the Camp Pendleton brig. The conditions under which they are held are determined by military law and brig regulations.
Following a normal periodic review of their confinement level on 15 June, they were reclassified from maximum in to medium in, which allows them to move within the facility without restraints.
The remaining four Marines were originally placed on pretrial restriction. After recent evaluation, these four Marines have been released from pretrial restriction. I cannot discuss those Marines further, as the matter is still under investigation.
Based on the findings of a criminal investigation, seven Marines and one Navy corpsman have been charged with officials, including kidnapping, murder and conspiracy, in connection with the death of an Iraqi civilian in Hamandiyah, Iraq.
It is important to note that the charges and specifications are accusations against the individual, and the accused is presumed innocent. All Marines are trained in the law of armed conflict and are expected to fully comply with it.
The Marine Corps takes allegations of wrongdoing by its members very seriously and is committed to thoroughly investigating such allegations. The Marine Corps also prides itself on holding its members accountable for their actions.
Throughout these events, we have been committed to openness. We have kept key congressional members informed of developments, and, as recently as today, briefed them on specifics of the charges.
We will continue to keep the public and Congress informed of significant steps in the legal and investigatory processes. We are absolutely committed to holding fair and impartial proceedings, in full compliance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It is critical to remember that the accused are presumed innocent. And, therefore, I cannot discuss specific facts of these cases. I'm confident that the military justice system will ensure a fair result in each case.
I'm prepared to take your questions.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
NAVARRE: None at this time, sir.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
NAVARRE: They are in pretrial confinement at this time, madam. And they will continue.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
NAVARRE: Doug.
QUESTION: Sorry.
QUESTION: Is one person charged (INAUDIBLE).
NAVARRE: Could you repeat that last part, sir?
QUESTION: Can you comment on whether one or more persons are being charged with actually firing the weapons that killed this person?
NAVARRE: I cannot tell you that, sir. I cannot speculate on that. I do not know.
Mark (ph).
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) the results of the autopsy and forensic examination?
NAVARRE: I do not have that information. We will have to provide that to you later.
Madam.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
NAVARRE: Who are you with, ma'am?
QUESTION: I'm sorry. (INAUDIBLE) with Reuters.
NAVARRE: OK, ma'am. Can I discuss the number of charges on each individual?
I cannot discuss the specifics of the charges. I know that those charges were preferred today.
QUESTION: Has the president been briefed? WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we're going to move on.
Colonel Stewart Navarre, U.S. Marine Corps, announcing that charges have been formally filed against seven Marines, one Navy corpsman, a sailor, in connection with what is alleged to be murder of Iraqis at Hamandiyah.
Let's bring in Kareen Wynter, our reporter. She's on the scene over there at Camp Pendleton.
Kareen, a big, big story, a major development we're watching here in THE SITUATION ROOM. It's not every day that the U.S. military formally charges U.S. Marines and a Navy corpsman literally with murder, potentially facing the death penalty themselves. I assume this is causing a huge uproar for the Marine community at Camp Pendleton, where you are.
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, an absolutely incredible announcement today.
You know, the community has been on the edge of their seats, really, the last several weeks. We have seen passionate protests outside the gates week after week, and many people not wanting to hear what was revealed today.
You just heard a news conference here by Colonel Stewart Navarre. Let's recap a bit what was mentioned there.
In reference to the eight servicemen, seven Marines, one Navy corpsman, I have a laundry list of charges here. Let's go over the charges that all face, murder, assault, kidnapping, larceny -- larceny and house breaking. And, by house breaking, that's defined as unlawfully entering the dwelling where that Iraqi civilian was killed back in April.
As for larceny, Wolf, let's break that down a bit. That's stems from the stolen shovel and also an AK-47 assault rifle that was allegedly planted on the civilian's body as a cover-up. The colonel went on to say that all eight men will remain at the brig here on base, as this investigation continues.
He also alluded to four other Marines that were somehow associated with this incident. Now, they were not in pretrial confinement, in terms of being on the brig. They were, however -- had some restrictions. And we heard a little about what's going on, on that end, that those four Marines, they have been released from pretrial restriction.
Again, they were never in the brig to begin with, but no further comments on that end.
PHILLIPS: Kareen, we're going to get back to you very soon.
Kareen Wynter is on the scene for us.
These Marines and one sailor accused of killing a 54-year-old Iraqi civilian, someone supposedly who had been under pressure to cooperate with the U.S. military, back on April 26.
John Jodka is the father of John Jodka III, one of those Marines who has now been charged with murder, among other charges. He's joining us together, with the attorney Joseph Casas.
Gentlemen, thanks very much for joining us.
And, John Jodka, let me start with you.
What did your son tell you? What has he told you specifically about what happened in April?
JOHN JODKA, FATHER OF ACCUSED MARINE: He's told me that he is absolutely innocent of these charges and that he was doing his job as a United States Marine, per the orders given him. And I absolutely believe him.
BLITZER: Did he walk through with you specifically the incident involving this allegation, that your son...
JODKA: He did -- he did not.
BLITZER: ... and six other Marines and a Navy corpsmen actually killed this Iraqi civilian?
JODKA: He did not walk through the specifics with me, because I do not enjoy attorney-client privilege. And, so, specifics are not discussed when I speak with him.
But I am certain, from his conviction and his training and his dedication, that these charges will be proven -- that he will be proven innocent of these charges.
BLITZER: Joseph Casas, you are representing this Marine who has now been formally charged?
JOSEPH CASAS, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN JODKA III: That's correct, Mr. Blitzer.
BLITZER: What, basically, is your defense going to be?
CASAS: Well, we're playing blindfolded chess at this point. We finally have charges. We know a little bit about what they're going to be -- what evidence is going to be presented against them. We have seen some statements that were obtained by Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
Our defense is going to be, simply, that he did not -- at least PFC Jodka did not commit the atrocities that the government is alleging occurred. As to any specific defenses, I'm not able to answer that question at this point.
BLITZER: You realize, Mr. Jodka, that your son and these other Marines and sailor, they potentially face the death penalty if convicted? JODKA: I absolutely understand that this is a life-and-death situation for my son. Much as he was in combat in Iraq, this is another form of combat and strife that he faces.
BLITZER: Carolyn Jodka, the mother of your son, says this -- said this on June 11 in "The Los Angeles Times": "Initially, he was very excited to go to Iraq, very committed to the mission, eager to do the job. But, after a few months, the reality set in: 'This isn't what I expected.'"
Is that what you heard from your son?
JODKA: No.
Obviously, I heard from my son in Iraq it was a very difficult situation, a very difficult environment. But he, along with his brothers, remained dedicated to the mission, remained dedicated to the Marine Corps. And he was absolutely certain that he and his brothers would carry through. But, obviously, it was a very difficult place to be.
BLITZER: The...
JODKA: And there's no denying that.
BLITZER: The Marine commandant, General Michael Hagee, went to Iraq to urge all Marines to obey the rules of engagement. When he came back, he said, on June 7: "As commandant, I am the one accountable for organization, training and equipping of Marines. I am responsible, and I take these responsibilities quite seriously."
Parents of others who are in trouble in Iraq for allegedly killing Iraqi civilians insist they feel let down by the U.S. Marine Corps. Do you?
JODKA: Yes, only in certain aspects of the leadership.
I believe the rank-and-file Marines completely support my son. He is absolutely certain of this and reminds me of this every time I see him and talk to him. However, from the top leadership of the Marine Corps, I find a great wasteland of disappointment.
In none of General Hagee's pronouncements or monologues has he ever once proclaimed that these men deserve the presumption of innocence as fighting heroes of the Marine Corps, persons who are on the tip of the spear. The only one in the senior executive leadership who has done so has been Vice President Cheney in an interview with Sean Hannity on his radio show.
General Hagee and none of the senior leadership that I have heard have -- have made any comments regarding the presumption of innocence. And I find great disappointment in that.
BLITZER: Well, we just heard Colonel Navarre say that the working assumption is that these men are innocent until proven guilty. That's the working assumption. Let me get your lawyer, Joseph Casas, to weigh in.
The working assumption, under the Military Code of Justice, is that these men are innocent until proven guilty.
CASAS: That's absolutely correct, Wolf. And that's what we have been talking about all along. When the media first rushed on this case, it almost seemed like there was an immediate rush to judgment that these guys, as Congressman Murtha said, were cold-blooded killers.
And, so, we immediately started reminded the American public that the military justice system, just like the civilian justice system, has a strong presumption of innocence. And it's good to hear that the Marine Corps is abiding by that today.
BLITZER: One final question to John Jodka.
Can you speak to your son now? Under the assumption he's innocent until proven guilty, do you have any access to talk to him?
JODKA: Certainly, I can see him on the weekends. And he can call me in the evening, certain times during the evenings. And, certainly, this weekend, I will be visiting with him. And I'm hoping that he will call me some time during the week.
BLITZER: John Jodka and Joseph Casas, thanks to both of you for coming in. Appreciate it.
CASAS: Thank you, Wolf.
JODKA: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Let's bring in our military analyst, retired U.S. Army Brigadier General David Grange. He's joining us on the phone.
General Grange, you know a lot about military justice. You know what's going on with the allegations in this particular case of Hamandiyah, these seven Marines and one sailor accused of murder, among other charges, in connection with the killing of an Iraqi civilian back in April. What's your assessment of what's going on?
BRIGADIER GENERAL DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think that the comments made about the Uniform Code of Military Justice -- and having been a general court-martial authority convening officer, it is -- it is very -- it's probably one of the fairest systems there is going around.
I mean, you are innocent until proven guilty. You have many opportunities to bring in any types of issues of extenuation, mitigation in your case. And there was a lot of prejudgment going on. And that shouldn't be done, obviously, until the process runs its course.
BLITZER: Is it your sense right now that these kinds of charges formally brought against U.S. Marines and a Navy corpsman could have, potentially, a bad impact on other fighting forces in Iraq right now? In other words, are they going to hesitate when they themselves feel endangered, perhaps, in the process, risking their own lives?
GRANGE: Yes, this is a -- this is a very interesting and real situation that you bring up.
Here's a couple of things that are going to happen. One is that our military is held to higher standards than many -- almost any enemy I can remember and who we are fighting today. I mean, we're just held at a higher -- a higher level of standards and respect for human life.
So, that's one difference. At the same time, these -- these -- this trial and a few other issues with our soldiers on the civilian population are ongoing. We have the two U.S. soldiers that were horrifically murdered the other day. And, so, emotions are running high in the force. And it's probably the toughest leadership challenge you can imagine for the officers and the sergeants to control, to maintain, hey, look, we're above this, even though this really, really upsets you.
In fact, it upsets me just listening and watching what happened to those two soldiers. And, so, that's going on at the same time these trials are going on. So, emotions are running very high. And a soldier has a split-second to make a decision on these rules of engagement. And, in fact, you have to be careful that they don't hesitate and lose their life and the life of their -- of their comrade because of that.
BLITZER: Difficult issues, indeed.
General Grange, thank you very much for coming in.
We will continue our analysis in the next hour -- much more coming up on this dramatic story.
Recapping right now: the U.S. Marine Corps formally charging seven Marines, one sailor, with murder, among other charges, in connection with the killing of an Iraqi civilian in Hamandiyah back in April -- much more on this story coming up later.
Right now, the final journey home for two other American soldiers who were kidnapped and brutally killed by insurgents in Iraq. The bodies of Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker arrive back in the United States later today. They were found late Monday mutilated and surrounded by booby-traps. They had been missing since an insurgent attack near Baghdad on Friday.
Some 21,000 American soldiers and Marines now are on notice they will be heading into the combat zone in Iraq. The troops are based in Texas, Alaska and Colorado. They will be sent to Iraq at the end of the year to replace other troops being rotated out of the country.
On Capitol Hill right now, senators are engaged in a heated debate over the Iraq mission and dueling Democratic exit strategies.
Let's go up to the Hill. Our congressional correspondent Dana Bash is watching all of this. She has the latest -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf.
Well, Democrats have been on the losing end of the national security debate for the past couple of election cycles. So, in pushing for this debate on the Senate floor, they're taking a risk. And that is that voters are fed up with the way the war is going, and it's time to start talking about when troops should come home, or, at the very least, voters yearn for a healthy debate in Washington about when that should happen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Our amendment is not about cutting and running. Rather, our amendment acknowledges that staying the course is a strategy that shows no promise of success, and it is time to change that strategy.
BASH (voice-over): Most Senate Democrats will likely support a measure urging the president to begin a phased troop withdrawal this year and submit a plan for further troop reductions.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Our amendment does not establish a fixed ending date for redeployment.
BASH: The competing Democratic proposal does; 2004 presidential candidate John Kerry's amendment would pull U.S. combat troops from Iraq by July 1, 2007.
Republicans labeled both Democratic proposals irresponsible.
SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: This is a timetable, a timetable that could well cripple -- cripple -- the ability of this new government, created by the courageous actions of the Iraqi people.
BASH: John McCain slammed the Democrats' ideas, but first took a swipe at the White House, and gave voice to some Republican concerns about the war.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We have made serious mistakes, and the costs have been very high. But these would pale in comparison to what is likely to unfold, should we follow the course advocated by this resolution.
BASH: But this is the GOP talking point.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: A policy of retreat, a policy of appeasement, a policy of surrender.
BASH: And Democrat Hillary Clinton called words like that nothing more than a campaign slogan from Republicans looking to escape political blame for a failed Bush Iraq policy.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: It is wrong, plain and simple, to turn this serious debate about our policies and national security into a partisan squabble, designed to mislead voters. This is politics at its worst, played over war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: But Republicans are so confident that Democrats have handed them an election-year gift by pushing for this debate, they're not even offering an alternative, Wolf. They're just content to sit back, watch Democrats duke it out, and, as you just heard, put the spotlight on some of their differences -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Dana, I know you have spoken with some Democrats who suspect that this whole debate could undermine Democratic efforts coming up in November for election. What are you hearing?
BASH: That's right, specifically about when it comes to John Kerry and his amendment that calls for a date certain.
You notice we didn't hear from John Kerry. That's not an accident. He hasn't even taken to the Senate floor yet. The leaders, the Democratic leader, wanted that to happen late, because that is sort of an indication of where some of the Democrats are worried.
And that is that by talking about a date certain for pulling troops out of Iraq, it simply plays into the Republicans' hand, and that really could endanger some Democrats this election year, because, they say, look, there actually are a lot of areas where Democrats do agree. Most areas they agree, when it comes to Iraq, talking about how they feel that the president has been misguided.
But the one area that they disagree, Democrats, on when troops should come home, that's what they're highlighting with these debates.
BLITZER: Dana Bash on the Hill -- thanks, Dana, very much.
Let's go up to New York. Jack Cafferty is standing by with "The Cafferty File."
Jack, what a busy news days already.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Indeed, Wolf.
Well, one more item to put on the list. You can stick a fork in immigration reform. It's done. There will be no compromise legislation between the House and Senate. Instead, the House leadership wants more hearings this summer.
Republicans in the House continue to object to a part of the Senate bill that would grant amnesty, or what they see as amnesty, to millions of illegal aliens. As a result of scheduling more hearings, any final negotiations can't possibly happen until the fall, at the earliest. And, by then, all eyes, of course, will be on the midterm elections.
Translation: Congress has failed yet again to address one of the most pressing issues in this country. Government continues to fail to enforce the immigration laws that are already on the books. President Bush says it's time to secure our borders. He's been running this country for five-and-a-half years, and nothing has been done about securing the borders.
But now, four months before the midterm elections, he thinks it's time. And they say all this stuff to us with a straight face, like we're supposed to not see through what's going on. Well, we do.
Here's the question: Who will the voters hold responsible for the nation's immigration problems in November? E-mail your thoughts to CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you, Jack. Thank you very much.
And coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM: a baby bounce for President Bush in the polls. But will new negative news about Iraq bring his numbers back down? I will ask our Bill Schneider. He's standing by.
Plus, is the debate over the war in Iraq dividing Republicans, as well as Democrats? Paul Begala and Dick Armey, they will join me in today's "Strategy Session."
And a crucial vote on a law that protects minority voting rights is put off. We will take a closer look at what's going on behind the scenes on Capitol Hill.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now to President Bush and his tough words today for two countries at the top of his remaining axis-of-evil threat list, Iran and North Korea. Mr. Bush is in Budapest, Hungary, after wrapping up a summit with European leaders in Austria.
Our White House correspondent Elaine Quijano has more from Vienna.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush says late August seems too long to wait for Iran's response to a U.S. and European offer of incentives to return to nuclear talks.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It shouldn't take the Iranians that long to analyze what is a reasonable deal.
QUIJANO: President Bush got what he wanted from his meetings in Vienna, a united front with the European Union against Iran developing a nuclear weapon.
WOLFGANG SCHUSSEL, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN UNION: I think now is the right moment for Iran to take this offer, to grab it, and to negotiate. QUIJANO: Tough words as well for North Korea, amid reports that the country is preparing to test a long-range missile.
BUSH: The North Koreans have made agreements with us in the past. And we expect them to keep their agreements.
QUIJANO: Even on contentious issues, President Bush and European leaders appeared anxious to strike a new tone, on Iraq, a desire to move beyond lingering animosity.
BUSH: And, look, people didn't agree with my decision on Iraq. And I understand that. What's past is past, and what's ahead is a hopeful democracy in the Middle East.
QUIJANO: On the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo, European opposition to the facility remains firm. And though the president reiterated he wants the center shut down eventually, he insisted some detainees are too dangerous to release.
BUSH: I'm waiting for the Supreme Court of the United States to determine the proper venue in which these people can be tried.
QUIJANO: Austria's chancellor says President Bush understands European concerns over Guantanamo.
SCHUSSEL: We got clear, clear signals and clear commitments from the American side, no torture, no extraordinary or extra-territorial positions to deal with the terrorists.
QUIJANO: President Bush was confronted with poll numbers that indicate Europeans believe U.S. policies are more harmful than world peace than helpful, more harmful than even Iran.
BUSH: That's absurd, my statement. That is, the United States is -- we will defend ourselves, but, at the same time, we're actively working with our partners to spread peace and democracy. And, so, whoever says that is -- it's an absurd statement.
QUIJANO: The European Union president was quick to defend the United States with a reminder of the past.
SCHUSSEL: I think Austria is really good example to show that America has something to do with freedom, democracy, prosperity, development. Without the participation of America, what fate would have Europe?
QUIJANO (on camera): At the same time, Austria's chancellor said there can never be a credible victory in the war on terror if the U.S. and its allies give up values like democracy, rule of law and human rights -- Wolf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Elaine Quijano, traveling with the president, thanks very much. President Bush may be finding at least a little hope today in the story of the new NBA champs, the Miami Heat. Mr. Bush can't claim anything like the team's amazing comeback, but our review of all of the most recent polls definitely shows some signs of a modest rebound.
Let's bring in our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider. He's crunching all the numbers -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Wolf, something interesting seems to be happening in the polls, not big, but interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): For most of this year, President Bush's polls have been moving in the same direction, down. In January, the polls averaged 42 percent job approval for Bush. That rating began to slip month by month, down to 34 percent by May.
Then, in June, the numbers in most polls went up very slightly -- the average for June, 37 percent, a baby bounce. It's the first time all year President Bush's numbers have shown any sign of improvement.
What's behind it? CNN polls show Bush making his biggest gains among Republicans, conservatives, Southerners, and men. The Pew poll calls it a rebound within his political base. The base sees a reorganized White House, with some new faces, trying to get a fresh start, and a president who is showing some fight.
BUSH: As people start going to the polls next November, I want them to remember who cut the taxes and who was against the tax cuts.
SCHNEIDER: The president went to Baghdad to celebrate the elimination of al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
BUSH: I have also come to tell you that, when America gives its words, it will keep its word.
SCHNEIDER: The polls give a mixed message on Iraq. In April, according to the Pew Research Center, the public felt the United States was losing ground in defeating the insurgents in Iraq.
After the killing of Zarqawi, people became a bit more optimistic. But opinion on the war has not turned around. In April, most Americans wanted the U.S. to set a timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq. They still do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The gains for President Bush have been small, and they could easily be undone by the latest terrible news from Iraq: Americans brutalized, Americans charged with crimes. The president's brave words may not be able to compete with grim reality -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Bill Schneider, thanks very much. Good report. And, amid all of that, some new political wrangling today over homeland security -- the mayors of New York and Washington, D.C., went before a House committee to complain about cuts in Homeland Security funding for their cities. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg accuses the federal government of making an irrational and dysfunctional decision to take money away from the cities that were hit on 9/11.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (R), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Despite this history, DHS' grant allocation reduces federal support for vital anti-terrorist activities in New York City by 40 percent. This is $83 million less than we received from DHS last year. The logic of that is, to borrow the words of Winston Churchill, truly a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The Department of Homeland Security says funds were reduced for New York and Washington because the threat level was raised in other cities. We're going to have more on this story coming up in the next hour.
In the meantime, Zain Verjee is back. Let's go to her at the CNN Global Headquarters for a closer look at some other stories making news -- Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, first, a sex scandal, now a deadly shoot-out.
In Florida, the FBI says that it went down like this. Federal agents had arrived to arrest six guards at the federal prison in Tallahassee when one of the guards opened fire. Agents fired back. In the end, the gunman and an agent lay dead, a prison official hurt. The guards were being arrested for allegedly giving female inmates drugs in exchange for sex.
Thousands of acres ablaze, four states on alert -- in Colorado, a 9,000-acre fire is burning west of Pueblo. In California's Los Padres National Forest, a 10,000-acre fire burns. In southwestern New Mexico, a 24,000-acre fire is zero percent contained. And near Sedona, Arizona, a fire grows to nearly 2,500 acres -- 500 nearby homes are in the line of fire. And the residents are all fleeing for safety.
A hijacking, kidnappings and a car bombing all marked fresh violence in Iraq today. In Baghdad, gunmen hijacked five buses and kidnapped the 50 factory workers on board, who had just gotten off work. Elsewhere in Baghdad, a car bomb explodes outside a restaurant. Two people were killed.
Meanwhile, Iraqi officials want to know if someone is trying to kill off all of Saddam Hussein's lawyers. Today, near Sadr City, police found the body of one of Hussein's lead attorneys. He had been shot to death. Another defense lawyer says insurgents dressed as Iraqi police stormed the lawyer's home and carted him off. Now, he's the third defense lawyer killed since the trial began. And we're going to bring you a lot more on this story in our 7:00 p.m. hour -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Our Mary Snow has interviewed Ramsey Clark, one of Saddam Hussein's other attorneys. She is going to be with us in the 7:00 p.m. hour.
Zain, thanks very much.
Up next: much more on the Senate's divisive debate over when to begin moving U.S. troops out of Iraq. Is this political battle hurting Republicans as much as dividing Democrats?
Plus, the fight in Congress over raising the minimum wage -- Paul Begala and Dick Armey -- guess what -- they strongly disagree on the minimum wage. They're standing by to join us in today's "Strategy Session."
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
In today's "Strategy Session," the political fight over Iraq -- right now, senators are debating plans to begin a redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq.
Joining us now to talk about all of this, CNN political analyst and Democratic strategist Paul Begala, former House Majority Leader Dick Armey.
Listen to what Carl Levin, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said as part of this debate. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEVIN: Success isn't assured in any event. But letting the Iraqis know that we're not there for as long as they want us is key to avoiding a culture of dependency. The bottom line is that our open- ended policy and presence has become a deterrent to the very success that we want to bring about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: What about that, Congressman? It sounds like a reasonable strategy.
DICK ARMEY, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, it does.
But, first of all, I think what the senator is asking us, don't be redundant. I'm sure anybody with any sense at all in Iraq that would like to accept the responsibilities of governing this country understands that they have to get about that task, because the Americans can't be expected to be there forever.
Now, that understanding can be reinforced in a number of ways, even by the existence of this debate. But to lay down a date certain, I think, is a fatal error, a tactical mistake, that could be very deadly and harmful to a lot of our young Americans that are over there.
BLITZER: Here's Senator John McCain's response, in effect, to Senator Levin and other Democrats. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: We have made serious mistakes, and the costs have been very high. But these would pale in comparison to what is likely to unfold, should we follow the course advocated by this resolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Senator McCain speaks with some authority on these military-related matters.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He does. He's a smart man. But he's one of the smart men that helped lead us into this war, which has been a disaster and a debacle for America.
Frankly -- this will probably upset him.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think Dick Armey is right. I think that the few Democrats who are calling for a date certain are making a mistake, substantively and...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Like John Kerry.
BEGALA: Like John Kerry.
But most Democrats and most Americans are where the Democrats are. That is to say, we don't want the open-ended commitment that Mr. Bush wants. His -- his aides are in the newspapers talking about being there for 50 years. They're building permanent bases. That's a nightmare.
And what -- what the Democrats are saying is pretty much what the Iraqi government is saying. The next two or three years, let's draw down American troops, and give this country to the people who own it, the Iraqi people. That's where the Democrats are. That's where the country is. So, I think it's, on balance, a very good debate for the Democrats.
BLITZER: You know, we have spent a lot of time talking about how divided the Democrats might -- are.
But there are some divisions, as you well know, even among Republicans when it comes to Iraq. I want to point to some legislation that Representative Steve King, Republican of Iowa, a man you know, introduced. There was legislation saying there should be no permanent bases in Iraq. He introduced legislation, well, at least you shouldn't rule out that possibility. Consider it.
There were -- the final vote was 376 to 50 against him. But there were 180 Republicans who voted against his resolution; 47 Republicans voted for this resolution. So, there was at least a little division there. The Democrats were pretty much united, 195 to 3.
How much of a split is there, when all is said and done, among Republicans when it comes to the president's strategy on Iraq?
ARMEY: Well, I think the key word is strategy, tactical decisions that must be made. And it's a difficult thing.
Carl Levin has a point there. You don't want to encourage a culture and dependency, on the presumption the Americans will be here forever. My own view is, the congressman from Iowa may have a very good point. Let's not give a signal of a permanent base that would indicate we will be here forever.
On one hand, you -- you have to see the Iraqi government grow up, develop, grow its strength, and gain control of its country, and be prepared for the day when in fact we can move out.
Now, the problem with all of this is, it belies the impulse to say, and, by golly, on Tuesday, this is going to be done. You can't say that. But you have got to send the signals there's a movement in a certain direction; there's commitments we will not make, and, yet, don't worry about us leaving you or deserting you in a moment of hour.
BLITZER: I think that Paul Begala and Dick Armey are not that far apart on this issue.
But I want to move on and talk about minimum wage, because a lot of Democrats feel very passionately about increasing the minimum wage.
Listen to Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader in the House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Five dollars and fifteen cents an hour, no increase in nine years. And the Republican leader of the House of Representatives says that there's absolutely no way that they're going to allow an increase in the minimum wage. That's immoral. That's a shame.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Republican Senator Johnny Isakson of Georgia responds this way. He says: "This is a classic debate between two different philosophies. One philosophy believes in the marketplace, competition, and entrepreneurship. The other -- the second is a philosophy that says government knows best." Is this a red-hot issue for Democrats right now?
BEGALA: You bet.
Johnny Isakson makes a point. There's two different philosophies. Republicans believe, you're on your own, and as long as government is there to subsidize big business and to suck up to corporate power, it's great.
But the Republican congressmen -- this is what they're saying, Wolf. Think about this. They vote for their own pay raises, so they believe that they're worth $165,000 a year, but that a working man or woman is not worth seven bucks an hour. It's politically untenable. It's disastrous for the Republicans.
BLITZER: What about that, Congressman?
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: You, for many, many years -- and I have interviewed you over the years, going way back. You have opposed any federal involvement in raising minimum wages.
ARMEY: Right. I have.
And if I were a sociologist or a politician, I would be for raising the minimum wage, because it would make me feel good, and it might get me some votes, by virtue of my hope that somebody did not understand the harm that it does.
But I'm an economist by training. And the most fundamental thing we teach a first-year student is that, when the government takes an action that shifts the demand curve to the left, you lose jobs. And those jobs that are lost are for the most inexperienced, the least skilled, the least well-trained workers, those that most desperately need to.
Now, here's a perfect case where, what should I say, sober, intelligent, well-informed, data-supported economic analysis runs into demagoguery and political opportunism. And I laugh at that, because I, too, was a leader that said, this will not happen under my watch. And then I watched it happen. The fact of the matter is, demagoguery will beat data in making legislation most of the time.
BLITZER: We are out of time, but go ahead, 10 seconds.
BEGALA: When we raised the minimum wage when Bill Clinton was president, we kept creating more jobs.
But if the Republicans want to go to the country and say, we support tax subsidies for Lee Raymond, the corpulent $400 million man from Exxon, but not seven bucks an hour for a working man or woman, I wish them good luck. I will meet them at the ballot box.
BLITZER: Paul Begala and Dick Armey agreeing a little bit on Iraq, disagreeing strongly on minimum wage. (LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: Thanks, guys, very much.
Next here in THE SITUATION ROOM: a crucial vote in Congress put off. We will tell you what happened.
And, in the next hour: Arnold Schwarzenegger takes to the air to get a bird's-eye view of the battle over immigration. We are going to tell you what he saw when we go live to San Diego.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: On Capitol Hill today, efforts to renew the historic Voting Rights Act have been postponed. The 1965 law is due to expire next year, after decades of helping minorities exercise their right to cast ballots.
House Republican leaders say they're delaying a vote because they need time to address concerns of colleagues. A number of Southern lawmakers contend their states are being unfairly singled out for federal oversight. They insist they're still committed to protecting voting rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LYNN WESTMORELAND (R), GEORGIA: The reality of it is, we're fighting to make sure that we believe it will remain constitutional, and that it not only applies to 16 states, but the whole country is looked at. To be honest with you, this is more about politics than it is people's right to vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Republican leaders issued a statement today saying this: "While the bill will not be considered today, the House GOP leadership is committed to passing the Voting Rights Act legislation as soon as possible."
Democratic Congressman John Lewis of Georgia, a pioneer in the civil rights movement, calls the delay unfortunate and disappointing.
Now an update on that massive data breach involving more than 26 million veterans and active-duty military personnel -- the Veterans Affairs Department has just announced it will pay the cost of credit- monitoring services to those potentially at risk for identity theft.
Standing by with the latest on this story, our Internet reporter, Abbi Tatton -- Abbi.
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, earlier this month, about 17 million people affected by this received this letter. Soon, they're going to be getting another one offering them free credit monitoring for a year and information about how to enroll. People will need to sign up for this. It won't happen automatically. The letter won't be coming immediately. The department is first soliciting bids to offer the service. They hope to send out the letter in mid-August -- no word yet on how much this is going to cost the department.
To give you an idea of what we're talking about, if you and I were to sign up for credit monitoring for a year, it's going to put us back about $129 each. Bear in mind, there are millions of people that could sign up for this. This has already been costly for the Veterans Affairs Department. They spend about $14 million already manning a phone line and also sending out mailings.
Privacy expert Beth Givens at the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse says today that this will not stop identity theft, but it will alert people to it. She urges people to sign up -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Abbi, thank you very much.
Coming up, a gathering of some very powerful women -- we're going to tell you why they got together today and the big plans they have tonight.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
On our "Political Radar" this Wednesday: All nine Democratic women of the Senate are joining forces today to accuse Republican leaders in Washington of failing America. They're launching an election-year campaign they call Democratic Women For Change.
And they're taking their case to the airwaves as well tonight on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE." He will have an exclusive interview with the nine Democratic senators who are women. That's tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, on "LARRY KING LIVE."
On Capitol Hill, by the way, there are 14 women senators in all. Five of them are Republicans.
House lawmakers invited and, in some cases, subpoenaed companies that sell other people's personal information to testify on Capitol Hill today. Just what information these so-called data brokers are after, and how do they get it?
Our Internet reporter, Jacki Schechner, is standing by with that -- Jacki.
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, I want you to take a listen to one former data broker, a person who buys and sells information online, explain to Representative Ed Whitfield just how easy it is.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I can take your name and your address and put it in and get your Social Security number, without even a problem. That's completely legal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's easy to get my Social Security number legally?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, from the -- well, yes, legally...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHECHNER: So, they're explaining to them how easy it is to do this process. This was just one gentleman who was subpoenaed today. There were 11 others who actually pled the Fifth. They refused to speak on the -- on the grounds that it may incriminate them.
You can listen to the full audio online at the House Committee on Energy and Commerce. This is part of a two-day process. Today, they spoke to data brokers and victims. Tomorrow, they are going to speak to law enforcement.
And, in addition to that, they're also poring over documents, Wolf. You can go online to CNN.com/SITUATIONREPORT, and take a look at some of the information that passed back and forth, to show you how easy it is to get your information online.
BLITZER: Jacki, thank you very much.
Up next: a brand-new development in the immigration wars on Capitol Hill. We're going to tell you why one U.S. senator is hopping mad and what he's doing about it.
And, in our next hour, a live update from Camp Pendleton, out in California, where murder charges were announced against some U.S. troops just a short while ago, troops just back from Iraq.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go right up to Capitol Hill.
Andrea Koppel is standing by.
Andrea, there's a new development involving the immigration wars. What's the latest?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we have been focussing all day on how divided Democrats are over Iraq.
Well, this is yet another example of how Republicans are deeply divided over another key issue, immigration. CNN has just learned that the powerful chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, has decided to hold field hearings now on the House immigration bill. He said that the idea occurred to him in the shower this morning. He said that he wants to put the spotlight on what he thinks is the -- the importance. He's one of the key sponsors of this comprehensive immigration reform bill that passed through the Senate, wants to focus on why having a guest-worker program and a path to legalization for those millions of immigrants is so important.
Remember, just yesterday, Speaker Hastert announced field hearings on the Senate immigration bill.
So, Wolf, it's clearly not going to be a quiet August recess.
BLITZER: Not going to be quiet on immigration, maybe for a long time to come.
Thanks very much, Andrea, for that.
And still to come: more on immigration, the reform effort, an impasse, clearly, right now in Washington. Who will the voters blame come November? Jack Cafferty is going to have much more on this when we come back, including your e-mail.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Jack is in New York with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
Wolf, the House is going to hold more hearings on immigration. The Senate says it's going to hold more hearings on immigration. There will be no reform, no new legislation, no enforcement of the old laws, millions of illegal aliens running amuck all over the country. Nobody knows how many. Nobody knows who they are, where they are, what they're up to. Nobody cares. But the government is going to hold some more hearings.
The question is: Who will the voters hold responsible for this nonsense come November?
We begin with Brian in San Diego: "I'm a Reagan Republican. Sadly, I say, when Reagan signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986, he initiated the immigration problem we have today. Republicans will be blamed in November. Today's Republican Party doesn't have the willpower to say no to the big money that hires the illegals."
Derrick in Bayfield, Colorado: "The American voters ought to hold themselves accountable for the lack of action on immigration legislation, because the usual apathetic American public will turn out the usual 30 percent during this year's midterm elections. Apathy reigns. Say goodbye to the republic."
Kevin in Dallas: "OK, Jack, you're the guy to get this done. Start a rally, all incumbents out in November. If they are in Washington now, they are out. It is time to send a message: Get the job done and quit fooling around."
Mark in Scottsdale: "Problem? What problem? Sneak into the U.S. illegally, steal an identity, get a driver's license, sign up for public assistance, register to vote, and then demand amnesty. No problem."
Ann in Afton, Missouri: "I think the voters will hold the Senate responsible, because they're not hearing the will of the people to not give amnesty to illegal aliens."
And Celia in Detroit suggests, "Jimmy Carter, of course. He gets blamed for everything" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jack, thanks very much.
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