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Nancy Grace
Breaking News in Search for Darren Mack
Aired June 22, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Nevada, Darren Mack, now on the FBI`s Most Wanted list after allegedly shooting down a Reno judge that presided over his divorce and the stabbing death of his own wife, on the run, eluding multiple law enforcement agencies. And tonight: Is there finally a break in the search for Darren Mack?
Also tonight: The Duke University rape investigation back in court today for a heated legal battle. Will the DA finally reveal his case? And tonight, we are taking your calls.
But first tonight, to Nevada, breaking news in the search for Darren Mack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POEHLMAN, RENO POLICE CHIEF: Darren Roy Mack, wanted in the murder of his estranged wife, Charla, and for the sniper shooting of Reno family court judge Charles Weller on June 12, today failed to turn himself in to a U.S. consulate in Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are on the search for Darren Mack. Tonight, straight out to Kevin Miller. What`s the latest? Has this guy been spotted poolside at Cabo?
KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: That is correct, Nancy. He`s been spotted at several resorts in Mexico. Authorities now believe that he`s in the western part of Mexico. He was supposed to turn himself in today at the U.S. consulate Puerto Vallarta. That did not happen. So he is on the loose, and an international manhunt is under way. He is considered armed and dangerous.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Kevin, he was supposed to turn himself in at the U.S. consulate in Mexico?
MILLER: That is correct. Early this morning...
GRACE: Whose idea was that? Let me guess. Law enforcement?
MILLER: Well, he did negotiate that with DA -- District Attorney Dick Gammick. They came up with an agreement. Then all of a sudden, Mr. Mack didn`t show up. Also, Darren Stone and John Smith are some of his aliases.
GRACE: Well, I guess not, Renee Rockwell! U.S. consulate -- hello! You step into the U.S. consulate, you`re on U.S. soil. Translation: We`re not extraditing you anymore. We can seek the death penalty.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly. So what he needs to do is go somewhere in a Mexican jail, where he can negotiate. Don`t forget, Mexico does not give the death penalty, so what he can do is say, I will come home. Mexico can say, I`m not sending him back unless you waive the death penalty, Nevada.
GRACE: Take a listen to what Chief Mike Poehlman had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POEHLMAN: Darren Roy Mack, wanted in the murder of his estranged wife, Charla, and the sniper shooting of Reno family court judge Charles Weller on June 12, today failed to turn himself in to a U.S. consulate in Mexico at Puerta Vallarta at 8:30 this morning.
Earlier this week, Mack contacted District Attorney Dick Gammick by telephone and expressed a desire to surrender. Reno police officials have been working with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI, inside of Mexico to facilitate the return of Mack to the United States while those negotiations with Mack had been under way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With us tonight, a very special guest. It is an honor to welcome Reno Police Department Chief Mike Poehlman. Welcome, Chief. What are you doing tonight to catch Darren Mack?
POEHLMAN: Well, I appreciate being on your show with you.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
POEHLMAN: We`re working with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, as well as the Mexican officials, to continue to try and identify exactly where Mr. Mack might be, if he`s still in Mexico.
GRACE: Chief, I understand you`re still looking for that same vehicle. No way! Please tell me, do you think Darren Mack is still using that vehicle? You`re going to find that somewhere burned out, probably, and definitely with the license plate changed.
POEHLMAN: Well, that`s -- certainly, we expect that he`s not going to have it in Mexico, if that`s where he is. But we want to find it because we certainly want to go through that vehicle in case it has any evidentiary value to us.
GRACE: Chief, is it true that his credit card was used at the Sacramento airport?
POEHLMAN: A credit card was -- that belonged to his corporation was used. And it was a credit card that had been issued to him.
GRACE: What was bought?
POEHLMAN: Nothing was bought, but parking was paid for. A vehicle entered and was in the parking structure for about 10 minutes, and then it left. And that credit card was used to pay for that visit into a parking structure.
GRACE: Well, that`s interesting, Chief. With us, Chief Mike Poehlman with the Reno Police Department, on the search for Darren Mack. In case you don`t recall, I believe it was June 12, right, Ellie, when the family court judge Charles Weller was gunned down in his own chamber. There he is, the family court judge that presided over Mack`s divorce. Also that same day, this woman, his wife, Charla Mack, found stabbed to death, Darren Mack on the run ever since.
Again, tonight with us, Chief Mike Poehlman. That`s very interesting what you just said, Chief, that he pulled in -- we think he pulled in -- somebody using his credit card pulled into a parking facility, was only there about 10 minutes and left?
POEHLMAN: That`s correct. The vehicle was only there -- when the entry was made, that ticket was only valid for 10 minutes.
GRACE: Chief, were any cars stolen out of the parking garage?
POEHLMAN: None that have been reported.
GRACE: But for all we know, somebody parked a car there, went on vacation, a business trip, and they don`t even know the car is stolen yet.
POEHLMAN: That could be it, or there was somebody else with him and they drove in and someone was dropped off or something was picked up. I mean, there could be several different things could have occurred.
GRACE: A lot of different scenarios. You`re right, Chief. With us, Chief Mike Poehlman, on the search for Darren Mack. Why do you believe Mack has lots and lots of cash with him?
POEHLMAN: Well, the investigation has revealed that he certainly had access to quite a bit of disposable income. There was speculation on the part of Charla Mack that he had moved money out of the country. Our investigation is -- we`re looking at that. It was also our belief, based on having talked to other witnesses, that he had a considerable amount of cash available to him.
GRACE: To Don Clark, former head of the FBI bureau in Houston. Don, explain why someone that owned a pawn shop would have access to tons and tons of cash -- plus guns, I might add.
DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD, FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Well, certainly, Nancy, if you`re in a pawn shop, everything is brought in from jewelry to guns, so there are plenty of guns that`s coming into that place. And there are procedures that they should be reported to ATF. But if you don`t have to - - if don`t want to, maybe you don`t always report those. So you really have that.
And bear in mind, in pawn shops, people are giving cash all the time. Whatever you bring in, they want the cash. That`s the reason that they`re bringing it in. So it`s not uncommon for them to have loads, if you will, of cash on hand, so they can disperse it as they go away. So if this guy is ready to run, he just takes it out of the cash register, puts it in a bag with himself and move along.
GRACE: Police say tons and tons of cash. I`m talking well over $100,000, easily, this guy could have. Also, many, many trips had been documented in the divorce papers, Chief Poehlman, that we have looked at, documenting his trips to Costa Rica, to Mexico, to many places abroad in his search for swingers, going to these swingers, what do you say, conventions? And this guy could very easily have hideouts who knows where, Chief.
POEHLMAN: ... different states here in the United States. Certainly, he has been a frequent visitor to the area we believe he is at right now, and so he would have great familiarity with that area, how to travel about in the area, et cetera.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POEHLMAN: Mack, who is believed to also have been using the names of Darren Stone and John Smith, was believed to be on the west coast of Mexico last night at 1800 hours, when we last communicated with him. He is believed to have been in the Mazatlan and Puerto Vallarta areas of the west coast of Mexico this week.
There was a credible sighting of Mack in Cabo San Lucas on June the 15th, and we believe he had also been in La Paz on June 17, on the Baja peninsula. If you`ll look at the map here, we`ve highlighted those areas of La Paz on the top, then Cabo down below, and then across, Mazatlan, and down below, Puerta Vallarta, where he was to have surrendered this morning when, again, he failed to show.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The manhunt for Darren Mack goes on. So far, he has eluded multiple law enforcement agencies. Now out to the reporter with KUNR, William Albright. Tell me what you know, William, about Mack contacting authorities for an alleged surrender.
WILLIAM ALBRIGHT, KUNR RADIO: Well, according to the press conference this morning in Reno, he has been in contact with the district attorney, Dick Gammick. I don`t know if you`ve already heard from him tonight or not. But apparently, they`ve had more than a dozen phone calls and exchanged e-mails over the last four days.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Elizabeth. Hi, Amy in Nebraska.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wanting to know if there had been any credible leads since this afternoon, when he was supposed to surrender himself, as to where his location may be.
GRACE: Chief Mike Poehlman is with us, the chief of the Reno Police Department. Have there been any more leads since this afternoon?
POEHLMAN: Yes.
GRACE: And how are you getting a bead on his location, Chief?
POEHLMAN: We`ve continued to receive a number of active leads that we`re following up on. Those are both information coming in from the Mexican officials, as well as other individuals who are indicating maybe they`ve seen him or spoken to him.
GRACE: And Chief, one of the leads says he was lounging poolside. Where was that supposed to be?
POEHLMAN: In Cabo San Lucas...
GRACE: You mean where all the star and celebrities go?
POEHLMAN: Well, I don`t know about that.
GRACE: Well, yes!
POEHLMAN: I can`t say I`ve been there to visit, but...
GRACE: I haven`t, either, but I can read the mags, and Cabo is where all the rich celebrities go. This guy must have a ton of money with him, Chief. He`s lounged out by a pool, having a drink. Is he with a woman?
POEHLMAN: Well, I don`t know anything about a drink, and we certainly haven`t had any information that he was with anyone else. The individual who reported this to us saw him twice in the pool area, and they had no information about him being with anyone else.
GRACE: Is it at a resort?
POEHLMAN: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: What resort?
POEHLMAN: I don`t have the name of the~ resort.
GRACE: And sir, what cell phone is he using? Is he using his own phone?
POEHLMAN: Well, if you`ve traveled internationally, you know it`s very easy to get a phone card and be able to use any telephone.
GRACE: So he`s not using his own phone.
POEHLMAN: We have no information that he`s calling on a cell phone, no.
GRACE: You know, that`s an interesting question, Chief Poehlman. When someone uses one of those phone cards, once they use it the first time, if they continue to use it, can you triangulate it, in other words, identify the general location where the cell call`s coming from?
POEHLMAN: If we have the proper agreements with the company, we can get information where the call is coming from, yes.
GRACE: Back to William Albright with KUNR radio. How did Mack and the district attorney know each other prior to this incident? I understand he`s making a lot of calls to the DA, who is joining us in just a few moments.
ALBRIGHT: Well, this is a growing town, but up until recently, it`s been a small town and still has a lot of that small town stuff. Everybody knows everybody. Gammick and Mack were both prominent members of the community.
GRACE: Who contacted who? Did the DA call Mack or vice versa?
ALBRIGHT: Vice versa, is my understanding.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the chief had to say earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POEHLMAN: The investigators are working closely with FBI officials inside Mexico to locate and apprehend Mack, who may have moved since his last contact. It`s been over 12 hours since we had our last contact, and he can obviously travel a great distance in that time.
In addition to the warrant for his arrest for the murder of Charla Mack and the federal warrant charging unlawful flight to avoid prosecution, we, the police, have probable cause now to arrest Mack for the attempted murder of Reno family court judge Charles Weller in the sniper shooting of the judge in his third floor office on June the 12th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back out to Chief Mike Poehlman, the chief of the Reno Police Department. Chief, do we know or have any idea how Mack got to Mexico?
POEHLMAN: No, we don`t.
GRACE: Well, you know, with all the immigrants, the illegal immigrants, flooding into the country, it must be just as easy to flood the other way. Chief, is there a reward for Mack?
POEHLMAN: Yes, there is. The secret witness here is offering a reward for any information that would lead to the arrest and conviction of Mack.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Elizabeth, do you have that wrong, $2,500 for this guy? Is that the reward? Chief, is that the reward?
POEHLMAN: I understand it`s gotten up to $10,000.
GRACE: Oh, thank God in heaven! I mean, people pay $2,500 for a reward on a missing cat in this town. You know, you got to give a reward bigger than that. And this guy has got a stockpile of cash with him.
Chief, I`m still interested, I`m still intrigued by the fact that he originally went to the Sacramento airport, went into the parking deck and came back out in 10 minutes. What`s your theory, if you`ve got a working theory now?
POEHLMAN: Well, we`re not certain he did. We know that the credit card was used there. The assumption is that he was there when that credit card was used. But at this point, we have no hard...
GRACE: Well, who else has authority to use the credit card?
POEHLMAN: He could have given it to anyone.
GRACE: Oh, I see what you mean. So an accomplice!
POEHLMAN: That could be a way to try to lead us in a false direction.
GRACE: An accomplice. I see what you mean.
POEHLMAN: That`s right. So...
GRACE: Who in the heck would be helping this guy? Chief, please stay with us. With us is Chief Mike Poehlman, the chief of the Reno Police Department, on the search for Darren Mack. Also with us, William Albright with KUNR, Kevin Miller. And when we come back, the Washoe county attorney will be with us, as well, who has spoken to Mack.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Massachusetts officials announce one million 911 calls missing, gone, all that data lost by a Verizon subcontractor upgrading software. Oh! Now everybody contending with the loss of a year`s worth of emergency phone calls. They all fear this will certainly undermine major criminal cases.
And also tonight, for sex assault victims in New York, a major vote expands New York`s DNA database to solve crimes. New legislation mandates DNA samples from criminals convicted of all felonies and many misdemeanors. Also, no more statute of limitations for sex assault cases. Hey, one state down, 49 to go!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Breaking news just in. We have learned that the FBI, FBI agents, raiding sites in Miami, Florida, in connection with domestic terrorism. Sources tell CNN one search warrant already has been executed in the Liberty City area of Miami. Also, a number of arrests and searches are going on right now, as we speak, repeat, about domestic terrorism. This has been approved by a judge. All we know right now, terrorism- related. And we will continue to update you as we get the information here at Headline News.
Now straight back to the manhunt for Darren Mack. Joining us now, special guest, the Washoe county attorney, Dick Gammick. Welcome, sir. Thank you for being with us. Do I have Dick with me, Elizabeth?
DICK GAMMICK, WASHOE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Yes, I`m here.
GRACE: Hi. I can`t hear you. Can you speak up, sir?
GAMMICK: I`m here.
GRACE: Oh, there you are. Hi. Thank you for being with us.
GAMMICK: Here you go. Somebody needed to flip the right switch. Yes, I`m here. How`re you doing?
GRACE: Yes, that crazy little volume thing! Mr. Gammick, how many times has Darren Mack actually contacted your office?
GAMMICK: I`m going to guess somewhere about 8 to 10 times.
GRACE: You know, it`s amazing he`s contacted you 8 to 10 times, but then was a no-show when it came time to surrender himself.
GAMMICK: Well, he called me Monday to talk to me about a possible surrender. And then we`ve been discussing all of the details of that and trying to get everything worked out for the last three days.
GRACE: So has it been worked out and he was a no-show, or has it not been worked out yet?
GAMMICK: Oh, I thought it was worked out this morning until he didn`t show up. So we`re not sure where he`s at now, and we`re back at -- on the manhunt again, looking for him.
GRACE: So it worked out on your end.
GAMMICK: Yes. We were ready to go.
GRACE: Now, whose idea was it for him to turn himself in to the U.S. consulate?
GAMMICK: Whose idea was that?
GRACE: Yes.
GAMMICK: That was worked out through us and through the Federal Bureau of Investigation, so that we could turn him in to the consulate, which would be basically a safe haven for everyone involved, and then we could just go ahead and pick him up there. Of course, that was worked out with the country, too. It wasn`t -- we weren`t trying to do anything sneaky to them. The idea was -- then they were talking to Mexican authorities there, to have him surrender himself and then go ahead and come back to the United States today.
GRACE: With me, Washoe county attorney Dick Gammick. You brought up a very interesting legal point. You`re not dealing with a normal surrender. You`re dealing not only with a surrender, but in a different country that you`re having to get cooperation from. Dick Gammick is with us, Washoe county attorney.
What did Mack have to say?
GAMMICK: With respect to what?
GRACE: To the crimes.
GAMMICK: Oh, OK. I`m not going to get into the specifics of the interviews or the discussions that we`ve had for the last few days, so that`ll all come out down the road.
GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Mr. Gammick, please. Not working. OK. Dick Gammick will join us when we get back, Washoe county attorney.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Again, Headline News is reporting breaking news that raids are being conducted right now in the Miami area of Florida, targeting domestic terrorist arrests. So far, we know several searches and arrests have gone down, and they are continuing. Right now, no evidence of bomb-making materials has been reported. We will continue to bring you that as we get the information. We are learning this from FBI director Robert Mueller. We`ll continue with all the latest breaking news in that as we learn it throughout tonight`s show.
Back to the search for Darren Mack. With us, William Albright with KUNR radio. He`s been on the case from the beginning. To you, William. Do we know any dates on all the locations authorities believe Mack has been in -- I mean, where has he crossed the country?
ALBRIGHT: That`s not known at this time. But one thing (INAUDIBLE) the failure to turn himself in to the U.S. consulate. Mexico doesn`t have a death penalty. So if he turns himself in to Mexican authorities, he might not be extraditable under penalty of death.
GRACE: Exactly. And of course, turning yourself in to the U.S. consulate -- to Allison Gilman -- is just like going on U.S. soil. So what would the consequence be, Allison?
ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The consequence would be exactly what we`re saying, Nancy. I mean, he really exposes himself to coming back here and possibly facing the death penalty. But I think right now, he`s panicking. I think calling the U.S. -- calling the district attorney is a panic move. I think in the time that he was actually going to go and turn himself in, he`s suddenly panicking. He doesn`t really know what he`s doing. But I`m telling you, the idea of spending the rest of your life in a Mexican jail really doesn`t sound too attractive, either.
GRACE: I`m not so sure this guy is going to be caught. What about it, Don Clark? We know he`s got money. He`s eluded multiple law enforcement agencies so far. He doesn`t seem like he`s in a panic to me. He`s lying by a pool.
CLARK: Well, I`m not certain he`s not in a panic, Nancy. You know, I think he is sort of grasping for straws now and trying to figure out what can he do to try to get some situation, something negotiated that may help his case some because he`s in a heck of a predicament at this time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darren Roy Mack, wanted in the murder of his estranged wife, Charla, and for the sniper shooting of Reno family court Judge Charles Weller on June 12th today failed to turn himself in to a U.S. consulate in Mexico at Puerto Vallarta at 8:30 this morning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The search for Darren Mack ongoing. We now believe Mack, last sighted in Cabo, is refusing to turn himself in. He had apparently worked out a deal to report to the U.S. consulate there in Mexico, this after family court Judge Charles Weller was shot down in his own chambers. Weller had been presiding over Mack`s divorcer, soon after the body of Mack`s wife, Charla, was found stabbed to death. Custody of their 8-year- old child temporarily with Mack`s parents.
Out to Joanne Musick, former prosecutor, will Mack eventually surrender? I don`t see it.
JOANNE MUSICK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, we would certainly hope that he does, for his safety and the safety of all of those around him, and the safety of law enforcement officers that are out looking for him.
At this point, it`s not looking -- I mean, it was looking hopeful with his contacting of the district attorney and his negotiations. But then the no-show today casts a whole new light on things, and, you know, maybe that he`s gotten cold feet and decided to take this on more of a run.
GRACE: Yes, I don`t see this guy surrendering. I think that maybe what he was doing was trying to throw police off his track, as a matter of fact.
Out to you, Renee, what legal responsibility does Mack`s defense lawyer bear if he has been in touch with Darren Mack and he is helping him in some way?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, I was about to say, does anybody wonder why he`s calling the D.A. and not a lawyer? Certainly, a lawyer would say: Do not go to a consulate. Go to a Mexican jail.
But the responsibility that a defense attorney has is this: You must tell your client that`s seeking your advice that there is a warrant for your arrest. You need to turn yourself in. You need to surrender yourself.
You could add to that don`t make any statements and don`t engage in any kind of physical contact with them, so that you`ll come in alive. But I just don`t see him -- he needs to call a lawyer.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Elizabeth. Let`s go to Jeanne in Pennsylvania. Hi, Jeanne.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Great color on you.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: I agree with you...
GRACE: I`m a little preoccupied with the Darren Mack double murder right now.
CALLER: Well, I just wanted to say...
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: I think I agree with you, he`s very calculating.
GRACE: What is your question, dear?
CALLER: I agree with you. I think that he`s very calculating. In the eight to 10 calls that he made, was there ever an attempt at a trace?
GRACE: You know, excellent question. What about it, William Albright. William Albright with KUNR.
I got the chief of police to tell us that he is using one of those phone cards, but what about the process of triangulation and also, once that card has been used, we know there are agreements with the telephone companies there in Mexico. We have reciprocal use across the border. Can`t it be traced? And has there been an attempt to trace it, William?
ALBRIGHT: I no knowledge of that, but I can say that he does have a local attorney that he`s reportedly been in contact with, and there is some question of subpoenaing those phone records.
GRACE: Interesting. But would that be a violation of attorney-client privilege, Allison, to subpoena the defense attorney`s phone records?
GILMAN: I would think it would. I mean, you can try and subpoena them, but any conversation that occurred between him and his lawyer, this is him going to a lawyer saying, "I`m scared. I need help."
I mean, there is nothing more confidential than between a client and an attorney.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But just the phone number, the phone number itself. You know, I don`t know that that`s privileged. That can be subpoenaed by anybody.
GILMAN: Yes. I guess just the number itself could probably be subpoenaed by a judge, yes.
GRACE: And then it`s a matter of triangulation. Explain it, Don Clark.
CLARK: ... with triangulation. I mean, this is a process that`s been going on. You`ve got one party who`s trying to get in touch with a second party. And in the midst of that, you`ve got a monitoring element.
And that`s what they`re going to do. And part of the monitoring element is also a transcript. And we used to call it a pin registry, and I`m sure it`s still call that. And it will list all of the telephone numbers that`s been called.
And I suppose that those -- I know that those records can be gotten, and you can get a court order to do that, Nancy. So it`s not something that`s out of the ordinary. It goes on frequently. And I suspect that that`s probably going on right now.
GRACE: Clark, this guy has graduated from being a local pawnshop owner to being on the FBI`s most wanted. Who is in the same club with him?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it`s an exclusive club, Nancy. Let`s go down some of the names.
We start with Osama bin Laden. Needs no introduction. He`s the man responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
Also in that same Al Qaeda section is Ayman al-Zarqawi (sic). He`s responsible for all those bombings down in Africa, Nancy, in the `90s, if you remember.
Warren Jeffs, he`s the self-proclaimed profit from the FLDS church. The FBI wants him for having sex with underaged girls. They`re still after him.
And this guy we have on the chart, his name is Donald Webb. He`s wanted because they haven`t been able to track him down in 25 years. Killed a police chief in Pennsylvania, 25 years.
GRACE: What`s his name?
GOLDBAND: His name is Donald Webb, Nance, the longest time that anyone has been on the FBI`s most wanted list.
GRACE: And Darren Mack may be following in Webb`s footsteps.
To Mary in Virginia. Hi, Mary.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering how much cooperation the FBI is getting from the Mexican authorities.
GRACE: That`s a good one. Don Clark, former FBI head of the Houston bureau, do we get cooperation from Mexico?
CLARK: You know, Nancy, we do. The FBI is about in 50 countries. And, certainly, Mexico is one of those countries.
GRACE: If we get so much cooperation from them, why does everybody run to Mexico?
CLARK: Well, you know, you don`t get every criminal back, but there are a lot of criminals that are coming back on a frequent basis from this. And I have to tell you, is that the FBI cannot go and do the investigation themselves, but clearly they have good liaison with those Mexican federales over there, and they`re going to follow and pass them as much information as they can and help them with this case.
They cannot go out and grab this guy, but they can certainly give the information to the Mexican authorities.
GRACE: Please...
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: And my experience has been that they will cooperate.
GRACE: He`s lounging poolside. He`s living it up on the south side, all right? This guy is not studying turning himself in.
I mean, Kevin Miller, you got a couple of hundred thou American dollars, I mean, haven`t you seen those ads, live for $8 a day in Mexico?
MILLER: Not only that, Nancy, but remember...
GRACE: This guy has dug in.
MILLER: Well, not only that, but remember Eric Rudolph, who didn`t have a lot of resources and look how long he remained underground, and he remained underground in North Carolina. If this gentleman wants to live large in Mexico, it`s going to be tough for people to find him, especially if we have reluctant cooperation from the Mexican authorities.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Liz. Jason in Indiana. Hi, Jason.
CALLER: Hi, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: My question is, being that he`s traveling to Mexico, will he face further charges for leaving the country?
GRACE: Well, he is a fugitive, a fugitive on the run. What about it, Renee?
ROCKWELL: ... that`s a federal charge to leave the country, to escape prosecution. But you mentioned that, a little 10-minute parking job. Whoever is helping him is someone -- pulled into the Sacramento parking deck, dropped him off so he can maybe catch a puddle-jumper down to Mexico. That person, too, is in trouble for harboring a fugitive.
GRACE: Ellie, isn`t there already a federal warrant on him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right, yes, there is. There`s a federal warrant charging him with unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.
GRACE: So, in answer to your question, Jason in Indiana, yes, the feds are after him, too. They`re not just cooperating. They`ve got a warrant on him.
Let`s go to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us. Bethany, Mack has contacted the district attorney offering all of these plans to turn himself in, and then -- ruh-roh -- got lost on the way to the consulate. Please.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think in order to understand why he`s doing that you have to think about, why did he kill his wife? All right, because then you can take a look at his motivation.
These guys who kill their wives, often they have a persecutory relationship with the victim. He probably felt that she was stomping on his heart, taking his money, taking his child, so he rebalanced the power by killing her.
And it`s possible that now he feels great relief, he`s bobbing in a pool, he`s feeling better. And now, if he calls the authority, he tells them that he will turn himself in, and then he recants. He may feel like he`s rebalancing the power there. In other words, he`s now charge; he can come; he can go; he can say something and then change his mind; and he might be toying with them.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Hunter, forensic pathologist, a lot is being made tonight of Darren Mack, on the search for Darren Mack, Darren Mack on the FBI most wanted, Darren Mack in Cabo San Lucas. Let`s talk about the victim for a moment. What about Charla Mack?
She was stabbed to death, found face down in a pool of own blood, dragged across the garage, her little girl inside the house a few feet away. To be found in that condition, her wounds were severe.
DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, when you see these kind of violent domestic attacks, particularly with a knife, they`re absolutely brutal. You`re talking about multiple wounds. You`re talking about blood loss over a period of time. You`re talking about a struggle, possibly person to person, between the victim and the assailant.
They`re horrible cases.
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GRACE: Continued breaking news out of Miami. Believe it or not, federal officials now saying seven arrested in connection with the early stages of a plot to attack Chicago`s Sears Tower and other buildings in the U.S.
Now, catch this: An official is telling A.P. the alleged plotters were not Al Qaeda. They are Americans. He is speaking on the condition of anonymity. Repeat: Seven arrested in an alleged terrorist plot, including the attack on Chicago`s Sears Tower and other major buildings in this country. The alleged terrorists are mainly Americans.
Don Clark, how does a search and arrest plan like this in Miami go down?
CLARK: Well, Nancy, I think you make a good point when you say that these people are Americans. That`s called domestic terrorism. And truly domestic terrorism has been on the books for a long time.
And what this is, this is American citizens with no connection to any outside country or any outside involvement who have decided that they`re going to take on an action of terrorism themselves. Oklahoma City is a perfect example of it.
Now, what has happened here, without knowing all of the details, but I can assure you that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have had some reason to investigate these people for long time, and they`ve been able to develop information and evidence to get a warrant, probable cause warrant, for a search.
And during the conduct of that search, they found enough information and enough evidence that they`re able to arrest those people and bring them in for violating certain domestic terrorism statutes.
GRACE: Incredible. Americans planning to attack Chicago`s Sears Tower.
As we all know, several terrorism investigations have south Florida links. Several of the 9/11 hijackers lived and trained in the area, including ringleader Mohammed Atta. Several plots by Cuban-Americans against Castro`s government there in Miami.
As we are speaking, raids going down in the Miami area on domestic terrorism. Repeat: no connection to Al Qaeda. Believe it or not, the alleged terrorists are mainly American.
Now back to our courtrooms. We are heading across the country to North Carolina and the latest in the Duke lacrosse team rape investigation. Back in court today, hotly contested discovery and bond reduction.
Out to Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio. Kevin, bring us up to date, friend.
MILLER: Well, Nancy, today in Durham, District Attorney Mike Nifong - - and it was like 12 defense attorneys and one Nifong -- it was part of the discovery process. Attorneys for Collin Finnerty, Reade Seligmann and David Evans all had a chance to address Judge Ronald Stephens and air their concerns over discovery.
Durham District Attorney Nifong addressed every one of their concerns in the petitions that had been filed earlier last week, and basically saying that most of their requests had been supplied in the additional 536 pages.
Now, there were a couple motions filed by Joe Cheshire, an attorney for David Evans. Those were denied by Judge Ronald Stephens. One having to do with the meeting between the DNA expert and investigator and Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong. He wanted a copy of that report, the conversations.
Mike Nifong said that`s not discoverable. Judge Ronald Stephens said, look, I agree. Motion denied. Then Joe Cheshire wanted that on appeal for an in-camera review. That was denied. Also, a conversation between the victim accuser and investigator and Mike Nifong that took place earlier. Joe Cheshire again wanted a copy of that, some type of report, wanted everything detailed in writing. Judge Ronald Stephens said no on that account.
Reade Seligmann`s bond was reduced to $400,000 to $100,000 secured. And then Joe Cheshire wanted Judge Ronald Stephens to have every person involved in this case write down everything that they have known and have done...
GRACE: Oh, good lord.
MILLER: ... including Mike Nifong, have the Durham district attorney read it, then have the judge certify it. Judge Ronald Stephens said, look, you`re asking me to do what he`s complied to do. I believe -- the Durham district attorney -- motion denied.
GRACE: And then, was the final defense motion to ask Nifong to stand on one foot and quack like a duck? I mean, this is ridiculous.
What he is talking about is work product. And what I mean by that -- those are legal terms, when the district attorney or any attorney has conversations with witnesses, with other investigators planning the strategy of the case. That is case strategy.
Yes, the D.A. has to hand over witnesses, witnesses` statements, DNA, scientific results, but not their planning and they`re thinking about how to try this case. Ridiculous. Judge Steven is correct.
I want to go out to Lester Munson, a special guest with us tonight, associate editor at "Sports Illustrated." Thank you for being with us, Mr. Munson.
LESTER MUNSON, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: A lot has been said that the state doesn`t have much of a case. Agree or disagree?
MUNSON: I disagree. I think the state has probably a better case than most observers are describing. I have studied this at some length for the piece that we had in "Sported Illustrated" this week.
Mr. Nifong is a seasoned, experienced prosecutor. He is not stupid. He`s been doing this kind of thing for 30 years. I believe he has enough to make a prima facie case. A jury will determine the guilt or the innocence of these student athletes from Duke University.
And I think that Nifong is probably managing the discovery in such a way that there may be some surprises for these defense lawyers further down the road.
GRACE: Yes, I`ve got the article right here in your "Sports Illustrated" magazine, very in-depth look.
I want to go now to Anne Ream, founder of Voices and Faces Project. She`s also a rape survivor. A lot of suggestions that the alleged victim made contradictory statements. Response?
ANNE REAM, FOUNDER, VOICES AND FACES PROJECT: Very, very understandable. I`ve worked with victims for years, and when you`ve been traumatized and gone through something difficult, you do sometimes have problems with memory. You do have inconsistent recollection.
There`s nothing unusual about her reactions, nothing I`ve heard -- and again this is a case that needs to be tried in the court of law. Nothing I`ve heard is inconsistent with her being a rape victim.
GRACE: And I noticed, Anne Ream, founder of Voices and Face Project, that -- and this is reading the police supplemental report -- that she told two lady outcry witnesses, one where she went initially, then one at the hospital, that she had been raped.
It is my understanding from what I can make of this report that she told a male police officer, possibly one that grabbed her and pulled her out of the car, "No, no, no, no, nothing happened." So I`m just wondering if Nifong can explain this at trial, Anne.
REAM: I think that what he needs to do is bring experts in who can talk about how rape victims respond to trauma and respond to an assault, and there`s nothing unusual about this.
GRACE: Back to Lester Munson with "Sports Illustrated." What supports the victim account? And I know there`s problems with the state`s case. I`m not denying that, all right? You`ve got the second dancer who`s given three or four different stories. But what supports the actual alleged victim`s account, Lester?
MUNSON: There is some voracity to the victim`s account. She and the other woman, obviously, felt the sense of danger, a sense of menace in that house. They left a lot of stuff behind.
They were able to describe what they left behind to the police, and the police, when they went to search the house, found everything there that the woman had described as left behind when she left in a big hurry in fear.
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GRACE: Headline News still reporting breaking news out of Miami. As you know by now, domestic terrorism arrests, seven of them in the Miami area. Local media reporting agents raiding a warehouse in Miami`s Liberty City section. Apparently, the plot to bomb the Sears Building in Chicago, along with other buildings in the U.S.
Ellie, why the Sears Building?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Sears Tower is 3.8 million square feet of retail and office space. It`s 110 feet tall -- or, I`m sorry, 110 stories high. And it`s right in the heart of downtown Chicago. They could do a lost damage there.
GRACE: Talk about domestic terrorism. Take a look at that beauty. And, repeat, no Al Qaeda ties that we know of now. These were mainly Americans planning to bomb buildings on their own soil, those arrests going down as we speak.
Let`s go to the lines on the Duke rape investigation. To Melissa in Indiana, hi, Melissa.
CALLER: Hello.
GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?
CALLER: I was wondering if any of the lacrosse players or any other people that were at the party have spoken up on behalf of the alleged victim?
GRACE: I`m sorry, I couldn`t get the end of your question. What?
CALLER: If any of the lacrosse players, any other of the lacrosse players, or anybody else that was at the party has spoken up for the alleged victim?
GRACE: Got you, Melissa. Out to Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio, Kevin, has anyone spoken to the district attorney`s office from lacrosse team?
MILLER: You know, that`s speculation, but the big question -- the answer is every lacrosse player stands behind their teammates and says they are innocent and you don`t prosecute innocent people. That`s what every lacrosse player says.
GRACE: I`ve got 10 seconds left, Kevin. When will we get the district attorney`s silver bullet?
MILLER: The next hearing will be July 20th at 2:30 at Durham County.
GRACE: OK. Kevin Miller reporting with WPTF Radio.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Private First Class George Roehl, Jr., 21. Roehl, Jr., hails from Manchester, New Hampshire, teaching himself to read before starting school. The oldest of five, he leaves behind a large and loving family. George Roehl, Jr., an American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests tonight. Our biggest thank you, to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.
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