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Nancy Grace
Alleged Child Molestation Perpetrator Released on Bail; Mother of Three Goes Missing;
Aired June 28, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight. Six counts child molestation, four counts statutory rape, the girl victims reportedly as young as 13 years old. The 53-year-old alleged perpetrator arrested and released on bail. But why is this case different? Because the defendant is a judge. Georgia Judge John Phillip Carr, you are in contempt.
And tonight, a mother of three goes missing. Can evidence inside her home and inside her car help find her?
And tonight, we are taking your calls. But first, tonight, to Georgia. Four counts rape, four counts statutory rape, six counts child molestation. Judge John Phillip Carr, you are in contempt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is facing 10 felony charges that under Georgia law could really present him facing 200 years in the state penitentiary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Let`s go out to the editor of "The Baldwin Bulletin." Standing by is Pam Beer. Pam, I could hardly believe it. Not when I heard about all the charges but when I heard about the fact that the alleged perpetrator is a judge. Bring us up to date, friend.
PAM BEER, "BALDWIN BULLETIN": Well, he is a judge, not in Baldwin County where he is a solicitor for the municipal court but a judge for three towns in a neighboring county, in Wilkinson County. Phil Carr, everybody calls him Phil, is a well-known fixture. And the towns are reeling over the news that he is accused been of these crimes.
GRACE: What are the allegations, Pam?
BEER: Phil is accused of engaging -- well, as you said, four counts of statutory rape and six counts of child molestation. The statutory rape and the child molestation counts all involve a 14-year-old ask a 13-year-old girls who, apparently, were once residents of Project Adventure, which is a group home for troubled teens.
The girls escaped, or left, or ran away, and when law enforcement caught up with the teens, then the tales started to come out about the sexual escapades.
GRACE: Sexual escapades is one way of putting it. Bam beer is with us, she is the editor of "The Baldwin Bulletin." To Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter, sexual escapades, maybe. Some refer to it as statutory rape. What else do we know?
LESLIE SNADOWSKI, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, we know he wasn`t alone. There`s two other people arrested. These two teens ran away and were staying with Michelle Bridges. She was a 21-year-old, and she supposedly, according to the girls, was the one who introduced the two girls to Carr.
Now, I don`t know of any hard like priors on Michelle but according to the sheriff`s deputy, she`s been no stranger to the department. So she introduced Carr to these girls, according to their tale, he engaged in sexual acts with them, supposedly had sex with Michelle in front of the two girls which led to those molestation charges. Then there is Joe Wilkinson, he is the gentleman around town who is a property owner, 69 years old. Some reporters called him long and lanky and riding a motorbike around town, he supposedly, had two sex with the girls, too, according to their tale.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the sheriff had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re a small county. Many people there are lifelong residents. When something like this happens it goes beyond the thought of him being a lawyer or judge in our community but being a person who grew up and has lived in our community all their lives. So it`s a concern anytime something happens to a citizen in our community like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And of course, the courts will deal with someone charged with statutory rape, someone charged with child molestation. But there are other considerations as well. To Clark Goldban. What are the duties of a judge?
CLARK GOLDBAND, CNN HN CORRESPONDENT: There is a code of conduct, Nancy, the State Bar of Georgia has set forth. Let`s take a look at some of these, and if this judge is in fact guilty of these charges he has a lot of explaining to do. Uphold the integrity of the office. Question mark.
Avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety. Even if there is no impropriety here, there`s some appearance of impropriety. Perform impartial actions. Engage in activities to improve the legal system. Not hurt it. And regulate extra-judicial activities to minimize conflicts.
Certainly, some conflicts here, Nancy.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Sheriff Bill Massee, the Baldwin County sheriff. This is a stunning allegation against a sitting judge. Sheriff, thank you for being with us. How did your department find out about the allegations, to start with?
BILL MASSEE, BALDWIN COUNTY SHERIFF: We got a tip about the location of the two missing juveniles. When we detained them, immediately upon their detention when they were riding back to the jail in a patrol car, they immediately started telling stories about having relationships with people in our community. We called detectives in, and an active investigation started immediately.
GRACE: What can you tell me about this judge, sheriff? Is he married? Does he have a family? How long has he been in the community?
MASSEE: Well, he`s a life-long resident of our community. He is married and has some beautiful children, which everyone in our community is just, to be honest, have them in their thoughts.
GRACE: Sheriff, very typically from what I`m understanding in this case, the alleged events, the alleged rapes happened some time before the outcry. Are there any witnesses to support these two little girls went into the judge`s chambers? Where did the sex acts go down?
MASSEEE: Well, the allegations against Mr. Carr occurred in his law office in Milledgeville, Georgia. And it was worked as a very strong investigation. We did have corroboration. Sunday afternoon we served a search warrant in his judicial office and did recover what we consider to be evidence in this crime.
GRACE: Out to psychiatrist Dr. Gail Saltz. I understand, as our reporter Pam Beer with the "Baldwin Bulletin" told us, these girls were in Project Adventure, I believe it was called. It was a group home for kids with trouble. I don`t necessarily mean a kid with a juvenile record, doctor. It could be somebody with a drug problem, somebody that acted out at school, somebody that left school. It could be anything. If they didn`t have problems before, they`ve got them now.
GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: They sure do. I mean, Nancy, unfortunately, sometimes people who are going to perpetrate such a crime can spot a vulnerable kid, and a kid who is in a group home who`s had whatever troubles and then frankly, is surrounded by other teens with troubles may be the kind of teen you would pick if you were looking to commit such a crime.
GRACE: The other thing, doctor, with us Dr. Gail Saltz, a psychiatrist. Doctor, the other thing is people deal with being sex attack victims every day, but what is the added complication of the alleged perpetrator being a sitting judge, respected by everybody in the community, as the sheriff pointed out, beloved by many.
SALTZ: Yes.
GRACE: Nobody says, gee, our thoughts are with the victims tonight, nobody. Because these kids are troubled kids. 13. What grade is that? Is it that seventh grade?
SALTZ: Yeah. Seventh grade.
GRACE: Seventh grade, Gail.
SALTZ: Well, people are probably aligning with the judge because they don`t want to believe it. Because if you have to believe that, frankly, the people you`re supposed to be able to trust who are protecting you can, in fact, be perpetrators of such a crime, that`s a terrible thought, a scary thought. You want to say, hey, save me. Protect me. But maybe you`re going to commit a crime against me. That`s a very hard for people to grapple with. So that may be part of the reason they`re reacting that way.
GRACE: You`re hearing a lot of discussion of child molestation versus statutory rape tonight. Those are legal terms.
Trial 101. Statutory rape versus simple rape. Statutory rape, very simply, leaves out one of the requirements in rape. In rape for that sex assault to be proven to a jury or any trier of fact has got to be shown without the victim`s consent. In statutory rape, even if a 13-year-old consents to the sex act, it`s still rape. A child cannot consent. That`s just like asking a 12-year-old to go buy a car or go buy alcohol or enter into a contract for a job. What about it, Midwin Charles? Explain.
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right, Nancy. You must admit anytime you have allegations of sexual molestation and statutory rape, they must be taken seriously. And prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. However, in this case, the credibility of these young girls are very, very shaky, to say the least. These are two girls, pubescent girls, who ran away from a halfway house. These allegations surfaced when they were found at Michelle Bridges` house. So I`m not necessarily riding the band wagon the judge is guilty here.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the sheriff had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASSEE: From what we found out they`ve had an association for the last few years. Evidently, she was his point of contact to meet the two juveniles he`s charged with in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Two defense attorney Renee Rockwell. I`ve been considering what defense lawyer Midwin Charles has said. Apparently the outcry of these two girls, that`s very simply when a sex victim speaks out for the first time, was well past the time that any DNA would be found. So somebody`s got a rat. I`m guessing it`s going to be the 20-year-old woman that allegedly set the whole thing up.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right.
GRACE: She`s got to save her own skin.
ROCKWELL: That`s right. She`s charged, too.
GRACE: Uh-oh. Look at that picture. What? What? Me? What?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, she`s charged. I thnk that any prosecutor will have to go for someone telling on somebody else. As the other guest said, there`s probably no evidence. There`s probably no DNA. We`ll leave that up to the sheriff. Here you have a situation where you have these girls -- and I can promise you one thing. They`re not in a halfway house because they have got a little trouble or bump in the road. These are girls that are going to have credibility issues. So I`m not throwing his career away, not yet.
GRACE: Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-wa-wait. A 13-year-old, a seventh grader, with a credibility issue. I think you have got a little explaining to do, Lucy.
ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, you don`t think these girls might tell a story, thinking that we might get out of this if we point the finger at -- not only was he a judge.
GRACE: How do they even know to point to this judge?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, he could have been associated with them and not saying having sex with them. Can you say innocent until proven guilty?
GRACE: Little green Martians could have come down and written his name down and put it under their pillow, too. So you`re saying maybe he had something to do with their juvenile case. Let`s clear it up. Let`s go to Pam Beer the editor of "The Baldwin Bulletin." Pam, was this judge a juvenile court judge?
BEER: No.
GRACE: So he hadn`t presided over these kids` cases, if they even had a case, right?
BEER: No.
GRACE: All right, you know what? Here goes the mudslinging. Renee Rockwell started the whole thing. She threw the first mudball against the two young girls. I don`t know what you`re smiling about. Go ahead. You can smile to your guilty verdict.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, you have got a guy a judge in three cities and he`s a prosecutor. Besides all that, he`s an attorney. I just found out that he got a bond in record time because he has to preside -- not preside because he has resigned from the judgeship. He has to represent people in cases. He`s still acting as an attorney.
GRACE: OK. So you`re telling me I should believe him because he`s a lawyer. You`re kidding, right?
ROCKWELL: I`m not saying that.
GRACE: That`s why I wouldn`t believe him.
ROCKWELL: He`s innocent until proven guilty.
GRACE: OK. That, I agree with.
ROCKWELL: And I`m not sure that the state has a case. There`s no DNA, maybe. You can have a situation where you have got some girls with some credibility issues.
GRACE: Here`s another issue. Pam Beer, "Baldwin Bulletin." Pam, you told me the alleged rape went down in his office, right?
BEER: I believe the sheriff said that, but, yes.
GRACE: Is that right, sheriff?
MASSEE: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: All right. Did the alleged rape take place during the week or on a weekend when no one else would have been there, sheriff?
MASSEE: Well, we think one occurred over this past weekend.
GRACE: Hmmm. Question, sheriff. To get - is it his office at a courthouse or law office?
MASSEE: It`s his law office. The law office is located outside the courthouse.
GRACE: So there may be no one -- you know, in a courthouse, sheriff, you have to sign in and sign out to get in over the weekend. It`s monitored, generally, who goes in and out of the courthouse in off business hours. You`ve got to have access to get into those offices, but not so with just a regular lawyer`s office, right?
MASSEE: No. It was his personal office. And we did serve a search warrant there Sunday afternoon.
GRACE: Has the search warrant return been filed?
MASSEE: No, it has not been filed yet. It still is an active investigation. We did recover evidence from the -- from his office that we think is very good evidence in this case.
GRACE: Now, a search warrant return -- correct me if I`m wrong, sheriff is when a search is done pursuant to a warrant which is signed by a judge. The return is what is taken, what you found to keep up with it. And that is filed at the courthouse or with the police. Have you filled out the return slip yet? What is on the return?
MASSEE: I don`t have a copy of the return slip with me. But we did recover some evidence from the office that we think is excellent corroboration in this case.
GRACE: That they were there? That the girls were there?
MASSEE: I can`t get into the specifics of the evidence. But we were .
GRACE: What if I said please? Would that work? No.
MASSEEE: Not on television tonight.
GRACE: Never mind. With me is Sheriff Bill Massey, the Baldwin County sheriff. You know what? You got a lot of guts, sheriff. There`s a lot of sheriffs that would back down from even investigating or listening to a complaint about a local judge, but you are following your duty.
Also with us is Pam Beer with "The Baldwin Bulletin." Very quickly, let`s go out to Carla (ph) in Indiana. Hi, Carla.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is what are the chances. And are they encouraging other victims if they`ve been a victim of this judge to come forward?
GRACE: Excellent question. Sheriff, what about it?
MASSEE: It`s still an active investigation. We are still interviewing people. And we plan to continue this investigation. We plan to go to grand jury July the 10th.
GRACE: If this is true -- and Renee and Midwin Charles are correct -- this judge is presumed innocent until proven guilty. But if these charges are true. Outside of the courthouse, what will this mean to two little girl whose are already troubled, who will now deal with a rape by a judge?
MASSEE: Well, first of al, we didn`t take into consideration that he is a judge or an attorney. And we purely looked at this as a crime against a 13 and 14-year-old teens here in our community. I think we did a professional investigation. We worked it the same against this attorney as we would anyone else in our community.
GRACE: Thank you, sheriff. We`ll all be right back. And we are taking your calls on this issue. Let`s very quickly, Liz, go to tonight`s U.S. Supreme Court watch.
Multiple rulings pending before the court before summer break. At issue, tribunals for prisoners at Gitmo Bay, Cuba. Did President Bbush overstep his authority by allowing military war crimes trials for accused foreign terrorists?
Also, the Supremes address Arizona`s insanity defense law. It stems from an appeal by a schizophrenic who killed a cop.
And finally, a single vote stopped the Senate from rolling back an `89 ruling that allows the burning -- Liz, take that down. I don`t want to see it -- the burning of the American flag.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Fifty-two slash fifty-threeish year old judge sitting on the bench. The Georgia Bulldogs are going to be mighty POed about him wearing that shirt in this photo. It`s the judge`s book-in photo. Charged with six counts molestation, four counts statutory rape.
I want to good back out to Pam Beer with "The Baldwin Bulletin." We heard the sheriff, Sheriff Bill Massee state, well, I was just doing my job. I think he`s being a little modest. Because a lot of police, sheriffs back off when they pull somebody over for DUA or speeding and turns out to be a judge or it turns out to be a celebrity of some sort. He mentioned something I want to follow up on see if you know about, it Pam. He said that they searched the law office of this judge and they got evidence. He won`t tell me what it is. Do you have any idea about the search?
BEER: No. I spoke to the assistant district attorney, and they`re not divulging any details yet because it is an active investigation.
GRACE: You know, that brings me to another issue to Midwin Charles that Pam Beer just brought up. Do you think it will have to change venue? Because who wants to prosecute a case that a judge that may come plop back on the bench when he gets a not guilty?
CHARLES: Absolutely. This is something an attorney will definitely be doing, filing a motion for change of venue. This is someone well known in the community. He`s a prosecutor and sitting judge in various counties. So absolutely.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Liz. Jason in Minnesota. Hi, Jason.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love the show.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: Kind of got my forgot my question. I was going to ask if there is a .
GRACE: You`ve got to work on your cross-examination skills, Jason. You cannot stand up and then tell the jury you forgot your question.
CALLER: I was going to ask if he -- if there was a computer that was seized. And if there .
GRACE: Good question, Jason. I`m going to put you on hold and let you remember your question. Liz, put him on hold. Let`s go back to the sheriff. Sheriff, he certainly had a computer in his office?
MASSEE: We did not have a computer in the office at the time of the search warrant.
GRACE: Hmmm. Home computer?
MASSEE: We didn`t have probable cause for search of his home. The investigation led to a search of his office.
GRACE: With Sheriff Bill Massee of Baldwin County and Pam Beer with "The Baldwin Bulletin" and Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. And we are taking your calls. We`ll all be right back.
Has another sitting judge disgraced the robe?
Very quickly, to tonight`s case alert.
An intense manhunt for a convicted rapist who slipped out of his ankle bracelet while out on parole. Howard Thomas, take a look, just released from prison last month, removed his electronic monitoring device in downtown Portland, Oregon. The bracelet found in a trash can. That`s nice. Police believe Thomas is in the San Francisco Bay area.
How are these guys getting GPS off their ankle? Is this an ankle bracelet like Martha Stewart wears?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. They wear this ankle bracelet. It`s a hard plastic ankle bracelet with a saniprene strap. Since 1998 when we started tracking people with GPS, we`ve tracked more than 50,000 offenders. What we`ve found is less than one half of 1% of the offenders ever cut off their bracelet and run.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. A sitting judge now charged with child molestation and statutory rape. I don`t know how it could get worse on a child sex victim, if, in fact, these allegations are true.
Renee Rockwell, book-in photos do have a way of coming back to haunt you. Liz, can you put that photo up again. This is a 21-year-old lady who has her own criminal history to deal with. Long story short, she`s accused of being the connection -- Liz, photo, please -- the connection between these two little girls, aged 13 and 14, and a sitting judge. Did you se that photo, Renee? She`s kind of, like, what? Me?
ROCKWELL: That`s probably what she said when they questioned her if she was smart. But Nancy, that`s their missing link right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point in time, he`s facing 10 felony charges that, under Georgia law, could really present him facing 200 years in the state penitentiary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. A sitting court judge in Georgia now facing charges of child molestation and rape. Let`s go out to the lines. Karen in Ohio. Hi, Karen.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: I was wondering if Judge Carr had presided over any child molestation cases or if he represented any child molesters in his lawyer`s office?
GRACE: That`s an excellent question. What about it, Pam Beer?
BEER: I don`t know the specifics. He has a very, very active caseload and cases that he`s still supposed to be trying even next week, but I don`t know at this time if any of them involve child molestation.
GRACE: To Renee Rockwell, explain to the viewers how someone can be a sitting judge, at the municipal court level, and then in another jurisdiction possibly work as a lawyer. It`s actually very common.
ROCKWELL: It`s common, Nancy. And it`s sort of a part-time thing. But let me tell you about this guy.
He was a former police officer, OK? He`s a practicing lawyer. He`s a prosecutor in a municipal court. That`s why Sheriff Massee couldn`t put him just right there in that jail, because there would have been people in jail with him that he may have prosecuted. And he`s also...
GRACE: That could explain, Renee, why he got such a quick bond.
ROCKWELL: Well, I think he got a quick bond because his lawyer said, "We`ve got to get this guy out. He`s on a calendar next week. He`s trying some big cases." But on a part-time basis, you can sit in smaller jurisdictions and just be like the city court judge, if you will.
GRACE: And municipal court judges, very typically -- in answering Karen`s question out of Ohio -- when someone is arrested, their first court appearance is at a municipal court level. That is kind of a clearinghouse. You`ve got to have a hearing within 72 hours of your arrest under the Constitution.
That judge is like a clearinghouse and sends the case to the right place. In other words, a murder case will be send by the muni court judge to felony court. A traffic violation will be sent to traffic court. A misdemeanor, you`ve got a joint, you had an open container of booze, you go to misdemeanor court.
So he was overseeing big cases as to sending them to the right court, not actually presiding over the entire trial. Let`s go to Norma in Tennessee.
Hi, Norma. What`s your question?
CALLER: Yes. Is he going to be treated any different because he`s a judge?
GRACE: Yes, probably. Not the answer I know you wanted to hear, Norma, but that`s the truth. He probably will be. So far, this sheriff has treated him like every other defendant, as far as I can see.
Do we still have Jason in Minnesota? Jason?
CALLER: I`m trying it again here. I had a question. Is there any speculation on...
GRACE: You`re very lucky. We don`t usually give you two swings at the ball. Go ahead.
CALLER: Is there any speculation on how this judge was able to get these girls into his -- I heard it`s his private law office?
GRACE: Yes, yes, there`s actually some evidence. Ellie, tell me about Michelle Bridges.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Well, this woman, Michelle Bridges, 21 years old, investigators are alleging that she is the one who delivered these two girls to the judge. Both times she drove them to his office so he could have sex with them.
GRACE: There you go, Liz. Thanks for the shot.
Renee, take a look at that. Now, I`ve seen a lot worse book-in photos, but what do you think of that?
ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, I mean, no comment. But, again, I`ll say that`s going to be, in my estimation, the missing link. That`s who the prosecutors are going to have to get to. Because, again, I`m sure there`s not going to be enough physical evidence this late in the game.
GRACE: Well, another thing about Michelle Bridges, she does have a little bit of a record, and she`s had probation violations. Now, we all know that a probation violation can land you back in jail, so she may have reason to cooperate.
And without DNA in this case against the judge, they may need a witness to roll over and tell authorities what exactly went down when a 13- and 14-year-old girl, two of them, were delivered to a sitting court judge. Allegedly, he had statutory sex with these minors.
Let`s go out to criminal profiler, a high-profile criminal profiler, as a matter of fact, Pat Brown is joining us now. Three people already charged. How do you go about determining if this is a pattern on behalf of this judge, Judge Carr?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I think that police are going to be looking a lot into his history and look to see what he`s got written down, for example. A lot of these guys fantasize for a long time, so they keep notes, like, "This girl is really hot, and I want this kind of girl."
He may have taken photos, which may be what they found, because these guys love to take the pictures because that`s their memories of what they`re doing. Also, a lot of porn on computers. They say they don`t have a computer for him. I bet he`s got a laptop.
And if he was involved in this, my guess is he`s got some teen porn sites, like, loaded up under the favorites. And these are the kind of things, I think, that will actually get him nailed with it, as opposed to, you know, actual, physical, hard evidence.
GRACE: And Pat Brown with us, criminal profiler, the judge in this -- I mean, the sheriff in this case, Sheriff Bill Massee, very wisely holding the cards close to his vest, does not want to taint a possible jury pool or the future of this investigation. So let me go to you: What do you believe investigators are doing at this juncture to crack the case?
BROWN: Well, I do think that they`re probably looking to find all those pieces of information, hard information, not necessarily DNA information, but information that shows that he has a pattern of going after these girls, things written down, photos, anything that will be the kind of things you can take to court and actually show this is something he was truly involved in. He knew what he was going into. It wasn`t an accident the girls showed up at his office.
GRACE: And to Dr. Gail Saltz, our psychiatrist tonight, Dr. Saltz, after dealing with so many child molestation victims and then with adult child molestation victims, the devastation -- I mean, they get over the physical trauma, but the continued emotional and mental trauma keep many of them from ever living a normal life. It`s a fact.
And I`m no doctor, but I could see that. But I just can`t get away from the question of what the further damage could be if the perpetrator is a judge that the whole community looks up to.
SALTZ: Well, I think there is additional damage, and that is that this is supposed to be somebody you can trust, somebody you can go to, somebody who is a helper.
It`s sad to say, but there are many people who are in helping professions -- judges, doctors, and so on -- because they`re actually wrestling with some conflict over wanting to hurt and so, actually, unfortunately, that`s more common than you might think.
But for somebody who`s a victim of this, who might have been seeking out and unable to say no because they needed approval, they needed attention, maybe there was no father in their life, and they turned to somebody and couldn`t say no because they needed that father figure. This can really be very devastating. It can be hard for them to ever form trusting or intimate relationships.
GRACE: And I agree with the defense attorneys, Doctor. There are going to be credibility problems with two little girls, especially little girls that are living in a juvenile home.
But long story short, let`s think about this a moment. One is just in the seventh grade. One is in the eighth grade. So I`m sure the sheriff is working hard right now trying to get corroborating evidence.
Before we sign off, Pam Beer, what`s the next step? When is he back in court?
BEER: If all of the evidence is ready for the grand jury that convenes on the 10th, then it will be presented to look for an indictment then.
GRACE: July 10th?
BEER: Yes.
GRACE: Pam Beer, editor with "The Baldwin Bulletin," kind enough to join us tonight. Leslie Snadowsky is staying with us.
Sheriff Bill Massee, Baldwin County sheriff, sir, thank you.
MASSEE: Thank you.
BEER: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Very quickly to tonight`s "Case Alert." Congress gets tough on cruise ship safety. Today`s legislation requires cruise lines report missing persons and other crimes within just four hours, this in light of 26-year-old George Smith who disappeared on his honeymoon on Royal Caribbean cruise ship "Brilliance of the Seas."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: We believe that, when people are on a ship, they`re not on a hotel. They`re in a city. And when they`re in the city, they deserve to be protected by those people who run the city. We`re not talking about a hotel that can then simply call up the police to investigate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the 60-acre Lemoore ranch, where authorities spent seven hours Saturday serving a search warrant. It`s the home of Debbie Hawk`s ex-husband and the place where her children have been staying. Hanford police were able to collect...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of items. And this was not the first time this residence was searched.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, no arrests and no formal suspects named in the disappearance of a mom of three, Debbie Hawk. Tip line: 559-381-9853.
Let`s go out to California for the latest, Liz Gonzales with KSEE-TV. Tell me about the case, Liz.
LIZ GONZALES, KSEE REPORTER: Well, Nancy, this is the first day that police have not given the media any sort of briefing whatsoever. They say they want to focus on the investigation, make that their top priority at this time.
They didn`t tell us anything today, other than the fact that they`re still interviewing about 100 people that they`ve received tips from over the course of the past two weeks.
GRACE: So they`ve been getting a lot of tips?
GONZALES: They`ve been getting a lot of tips, but they admit at the same time that a lot of those tips they`ve been receiving are flat-out rumors, so at this time they`re just trying to sort them out. They`ve got a lot of different agencies working on this case.
Obviously, a local police department, county sheriff`s department. The FBI has also gotten involved, as well, as the California Department of Justice. They`re just trying to conduct as many interviews as possible right now.
GRACE: To Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter who`s been studying the case, Leslie, tell me about when Debbie Hawk went missing? What happened that day?
SNADOWSKY: Well, her three kids were coming home from a custody visit with her dad, her ex-husband, Dave Hawk.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Were they totally divorced?
SNADOWSKY: I believe they were divorced in 2001. And the only contention between the exes is that they were fighting for better custody rights. And she was petitioning for more time with her kids. I think she was trying to get a little more division of the assets, so there was actually, you know, a court battle going on between these two. I think it`s one reason why Dave Hawk has been elevated to a person of interest.
GRACE: I see. So, while the divorce was done, they still had ongoing controversy as a result of the divorce and custody? So there was a dispute?
SNADOWSKY: Yes, yes. In fact, court records reflect that. They were actively going to court during this time of the disappearance. In fact, a very strange thing happened: Debbie Hawk`s attorney actually was shot in the neck, and the shooter is still on the loose. Could it be allegedly this ex-husband? I mean, who knows?
GRACE: Wow, wow.
To Liz Gonzales, KSEE, correct?
GONZALES: That is correct. In fact, at this time, police say that they are -- Hanford police say that they`re in communication with Fresno police to let them conduct that investigation of the shooting of the attorney, but they say that they`ve got somebody assigned from the Hanford police department working with Fresno P.D. to see if they can help narrow down and see if, in fact, they do have a suspect in that shooting, as well.
GRACE: So, Liz, Leslie started it. You finish it. What happened the day she went missing?
GONZALES: The day she went missing, just to backtrack, the last time she was heard from was about 10:30 on June 12th, 10:30 in the evening. She spoke with a family member on the phone. She was scheduled to pick up her kids from their father`s house -- they`d been there on a custodial visit. She was scheduled to pick up her kids June 13th around 6:00. She never showed up.
About 6:30, their father dropped them off at the house. That`s when the kids arrived. They found the home unlocked. The kids went inside. According to friends of the family, as well as police -- they have confirmed this for us, as well -- that there was blood inside the residence.
Her work van was missing. At that time, the kids ran to a neighbor`s house, called police. Police came out. That is when the search began, and they began investigating just to try to figure out just what happened.
GRACE: So, Liz, when they were dropped off, after the custodial visit with their dad, who dropped them off?
GONZALES: Police have told us that it was their father that dropped them off at the house. Family friends say the same thing, their father dropped them off. I don`t know whether -- you know, they just said that he dropped them off at the house.
GRACE: And, Liz, with us, Liz Gonzales, KSEE-TV, Liz, when he dropped them off, he left as soon as they went into the house?
GONZALES: As far as we know. All that they`ve told us is that he dropped them off and just pretty much left. The children were at the house, and they went to the neighbor`s house. Their father was not there when they made the discovery.
GRACE: I see. I see. And, of course, Renee, you see where I`m headed with that, just the thinking that, if the dad had known anything about her being missing, he would have waited for his kids to run back out of the house and tell him the mom wasn`t there, but he didn`t. He left as soon as they went in.
ROCKWELL: You would think so, Nancy. But what is one thing? And talking about this lawyer, her lawyer getting shot in back of the next, one thing that you`ve said to me for years, there is no such thing as a coincidence.
It sounds a little too coincidental that he would have been -- her attorney would have been shot in the back of the deck, and they`re going through a very contentious divorce.
But one thing I should point out about this divorce, although they`re fighting over custody and maybe money, division of property, this is not a contentious divorce where they`ve filed restraining orders or protective orders. So it doesn`t seem like maybe anybody was concerned about their own safety.
GRACE: Hmm. Interesting point. And, again, we tried to have Dave Hawk, her husband, come on tonight, and he did not return our calls, did not want to answer any questions.
To Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter, apparently, this battle, however, was contentious, yes?
SNADOWSKY: Yes. In fact, again, she was petitioning for more time. She wanted more money, it sounds like. She also alleged in some of her filings that time spent with the dad actually hurt the kids` schoolwork. I`m not sure exactly how she explained that in the court filings. That`s something she was alleging.
GRACE: Interesting.
SNADOWSKY: And, of course, this weird coincidence with her attorney, getting shot, I believe, the day before they were all supposed to go to court in May.
GRACE: And, again, Dave Hawk is not a suspect in this case. He along with a lot of other people have been named a person of interest. And that is not unusual for a husband, ex-husband, boyfriend to be a person of interest.
Back to Liz Gonzales with KSEE-TV, you saw some of the court papers. Was there any indication that anyone, the wife, anybody was afraid of the husband?
GONZALES: There was no indication in the papers, but one other thing that hasn`t been mentioned, there was a story that we ran yesterday where we obtained some of the briefing that was completed by Kim Aguirre, Debbie Hawk`s attorney, where he mentioned that he accuses the father of wrongfully taking the children`s trust funds. In fact, the amount that the kids had in their trust funds combined amount -- again, three children -- they had a combined amount of $52,000 back in 2004. As of May of 2006, they only had $11,400. That`s according to Morgan Stanley Dean Witter.
GRACE: So what happened to the $40 thou?
GONZALES: There`s been no explanation. At one point, we know that Dave Hawk did mention that he had taken some money out to pay for some medical expenses for the children. Beyond that, we don`t know.
GRACE: Out to Eliza Carlson, she is a very dear friend of Debbie Hawk, now missing for many days. Welcome, Eliza. What can you tell us about Debbie and the day she went missing?
ELIZA CARLSON, FRIEND OF DEBBIE HAWK: You know, the day that she went missing is only things that I know from my friends, but the things that I can tell you about Debbie is that, you know, she`s just one of those people that, once you meet her, you`re never going to forget her. She`s got big, blue eyes and these big, gorgeous lashes, and a beautiful smile, and an infectious laugh, and that she`s just one of the most loyal people that you will ever, ever meet, as a friend and a person.
GRACE: Eliza, how are her three children doing?
CARLSON: They`re, you know, doing as well as can be. I mean, they`re strong. They`re Debbie`s kids. They`re strong kids.
GRACE: Joining us also is Kim Peterson with the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation. Kim, you spoke to Debbie`s sister today. What message does the family want to send out?
KIM PETERSON, CAROLE SUND CARRINGTON FOUNDATION: They are, as you can imagine, devastated. This is every family`s worst nightmare. And they are begging anybody who might know something about Debbie`s whereabouts and what may have happened to her to please give the Hanford police department a call.
They`ve been impressed with the police department and all of the agencies that are assisting them, but they`re devastated. It`s been 15 days now and 15 days of living Hell.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s still classified as a missing person. Each day, our concerns grow greater, because we haven`t had any contact with Debbie or any people that have actually said they saw or heard from her. We`re looking for information that will lead us to the whereabouts of Debbie Hawk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This mother of three`s van was found near Fresno, California. Can you help us? Debbie Hawk missing now Day 16. Tip line: 559-381-9853, $15,000 reward.
Out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. Pat, you`ve seen a million of these, but what leaps out at you about Debbie Hawk?
BROWN: Well, the crime scene itself in the home. If you have a stranger coming in, most of the time they`re not going to bother, if they`re committing a sexual homicide or a robbery gone bad, a home invasion, they`re not going to bother to take the body with them or the person with them.
In this case, I think that she was removed by somebody she knew. And then what`s also interesting is that the car had a license plate switch, like somebody was really worried about that car being identified. Then the car was put far away, 30 miles away, and the person left the keys in the car and the door unlocked.
I`ve seen this done before. This is where you put it in a neighborhood where you hope somebody is going to steal the car. And when they steal the car, then they may be caught with it and the finger may be pointed at them.
GRACE: And they`re the suspect. You know, Pat Brown, you`re so right on.
To Melissa in North Dakota. Hi, Melissa, what`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Hi. My question is: What is the possibility that the husband may have hired a hit man?
GRACE: Interesting question.
To Leslie Snadowsky, any light shed on that?
SNADOWSKY: Well, obviously, at this point in the investigation, I don`t anyone is thinking about that. But it`s also important to note that Dave Hawk is not the only person of interest. Supposedly other search warrants have been issued, and there are other people that police are considering. So it`s not all about Dave.
GRACE: And following up on that, Leslie, let me reiterate Dave Hawk, not a suspect. Police are talking to over 100 people.
Let`s just stop for a moment, all our legal analysis, to remember Private First Class Roland Calderon Ascencio, just 21, killed, Iraq. He`s from Miami, leaving behind a widow and nine-month-old twin boys.
Calderon Ascencio loved poetry and dreamed of starting his own business. Tonight, an American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you, to you for being with us, inviting us into your home. A special good night from friends of the show, Mike and Andreas. Andreas, a new citizen here in the United States.
I`m Nancy Grace, signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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