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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Remembering Patsy Ramsey
Aired June 30, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: The latest tragic turn in the most sensational child murder mystery of our time. JonBenet Ramsey's mother, Patsy Ramsey, laid to rest yesterday after losing her 13 year battle with cancer. Her daughter's brutal killing in 1996 still unsolved.
We'll talk with Patsy's attorney and long-time friend Lin Wood who was at the funeral.
And we'll remember Patsy in her own words.
Will we ever learn who killed JonBenet?
It's next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Thanks for joining us. We've got a special show tonight as we remember Patsy Ramsey. We'll look back at some of her past appearances and talk with long time family friend and attorney Lin Wood. Last week, Patsy lost her battle with ovarian cancer. On Thursday she was buried next to her daughter JonBenet.
On December 26, 1996, JonBenet's body was found in the Ramsey's Colorado home. Her parents, John and Patsy, eventually came under a cloud of suspicion. In 1999 a grand jury decided not to indict the Ramseys but the accusers were slow to go away.
One of them was Boulder police detective Steve Thomas. He was convinced that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter, even wrote a book about it. In May, 2000 we asked Steve to debate John and Patsy on our show and much to our surprise all parties agreed, the result one of the most remarkable hours we've ever had, the accused face-to-face with the accuser on worldwide television.
KING: Patsy did you wholeheartedly agree to come or did any of you dispute coming here tonight?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, not a bit.
KING: You felt you wanted to confront this?
P. RAMSEY: Absolutely, it's time.
KING: Is it difficult for you to sit in Steve's presence?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's not pleasant. This man has harmed us deeply. He's failed in his responsibilities as a police officer. He's failed us. He's failed JonBenet. He's failed the community of Boulder. It's not pleasant, no.
KING: Steve, how do you respond?
STEVE THOMAS: Well, let's talk about failure. Let's talk about parents who I feel have failed their daughter who after this became a homicide of course they cooperated when it was a kidnapping but after it became a homicide Patsy, you waited four months before you came in and talked to the Boulder Police Department and answered questions.
P. RAMSEY: No, Steve, I did not.
THOMAS: Well, tell me when? I was there every day. Tell me how many hours...
P. RAMSEY: Were you in our home that day?
THOMAS: How many hours...
P. RAMSEY: Were you in our home the day that JonBenet was missing?
THOMAS: How many hours (INAUDIBLE)?
J. RAMSEY: Let's read some press releases here Steve.
KING: Hold it, don't talk over each other. You say they didn't appear. You say you did appear with the Boulder Police?
P. RAMSEY: Yes, I did.
KING: And how would he not know about it?
THOMAS: At the Boulder Police Department I don't remember you there.
P. RAMSEY: He wasn't there that day.
KING: Oh, you weren't there. You weren't there the day they came.
THOMAS: What day did you come to the Boulder Police Department, Patsy?
P. RAMSEY: You were not there.
J. RAMSEY: Let's deal with facts. December 27th, 1997, Commander Eller (ph) released a press release. "The family has been cooperative and our investigation is continuing." December 29th, 1996, "The family continues"...
KING: You meant '96.
J. RAMSEY: I meant '96, sorry. "The family continues to cooperate with the police investigation. Although the police have not yet conducted interviews with the father and mother they have been in no condition to be interviewed up to this point." We spent days with the police. We gave them everything they asked for.
THOMAS: Let's cut to the chase here. You waited until April 30th of 1997 Mr. Ramsey.
J. RAMSEY: Let's really cut to the chase Steve Thomas.
THOMAS: Let me cut to the chase.
J. RAMSEY: Let's cut to the chase. What is your theory? Tell us your theory directly to our face.
KING: I think it's fair to say this. You've certainly approached this impartially one would assume. You didn't know the Ramseys right?
THOMAS: Absolutely not.
KING: You didn't know JonBenet? You didn't know anyone connected to this. When did you come to the conclusion you came to and that conclusion is what?
THOMAS: Well, despite what the Ramseys assert that it was the 26th, they now know I came into the case, was called into the case two days later. It was probably spring of '97 or later when evidence continued to come back indicating Patsy's involvement in the authorship of the ransom note, one.
But let's cut to the chase, John. Let's make a very important distinction here. A dead child, your child, was found in your basement for which you could not offer a satisfactory explanation.
P. RAMSEY: Steve.
THOMAS: And, if I can finish.
KING: Let him finish his theory.
THOMAS: You could not offer...
J. RAMSEY: I'd like to hear the theory.
THOMAS: Yes, you could not offer a satisfactory explanation. You resisted coming into the police department and asking -- or being subjected to questions by the detectives working this case. I didn't have a dead child found in my basement and resisted the police.
J. RAMSEY: Does that make me a murderer?
THOMAS: No, not at all. Do we want to get into evidence?
J. RAMSEY: I want you to get into your theory.
THOMAS: Let's talk evidence.
J. RAMSEY: Let me hear -- let me hear your theory.
P. RAMSEY: Let's hear the theory.
KING: Let me get a break and let's -- since we don't have anybody arrested in this. We don't have a trial. We're sort of taking you into evidence here. I feel like it's "Law and Order." Your evidence will be presented to the Ramseys. They can respond. And we'll do it right after this.
KING: Lin Wood joins us now. He's the Ramsey's long time attorney and friend and, Lin, we want to talk about Patsy. But before we do, as their attorney, why did you let that debate take place?
LIN WOOD, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN AND PATSY RAMSEY: Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey have a history of having the courage to face their accusers in the eye and proclaim their innocence and then seek and urge those accusers to work with them to try to solve the murder of their daughter.
John and Patsy Ramsey have from day one proclaimed their innocence. There has never been any credible evidence that in any way implicated them in the crime and when Steve Thomas came out with his book accusing Patsy of the murder, a theory based on pure speculation, John and Patsy were willing to come forward and once again face their accusers.
KING: Do you think Patsy ever felt completely exonerated of the murder?
WOOD: Absolutely. There was never any doubt in Patsy Ramsey's mind that the accusations against her and members of her family, against her husband, were absolutely false. These were innocent people, Larry, and they were victims of a murderer, the person who came into their home and brutally murdered their daughter on Christmas night.
KING: But did she feel exonerated?
WOOD: Patsy did not address that issue directly in her mind of did she feel exonerated. She went about living her life to the fullest. You have to remember this is a courageous woman who had fought many battles beginning with the loss of her stepdaughter, John's oldest daughter Beth, at age 22 in an automobile accident in 1992, then faced cancer in 1993, stage four ovarian cancer and then the murder of JonBenet followed by the investigation and the false accusations.
Patsy tried as best she could to live a normal life concerned in large part about her youngest son Bert (ph) and tried to make his life normal and I don't think Patsy Ramsey sat around and debated whether people think I'm innocent or guilty. She was totally confident in her innocence and in her faith that eventually the murderer of JonBenet would be brought to justice.
KING: When we come back more of the Ramsey/Thomas debate. Stay with us.
KING: We're back, Steve theory?
THOMAS: Well, Larry, I hope we get a chance to talk about their convoluted sex crime, pedophile kidnapper turned murderer theory but I think it's...
KING: Let's hear your theory.
J. RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) your theory.
THOMAS: ...but I think it's very -- I think it's very simple.
KING: And we'll get their theory. I want your theory. What's your theory?
THOMAS: My theory is quite simple. Whoever authored the ransom note killed the child absent some great conspiracy that they think this intruder came into the house.
KING: No but you agree that whoever authored the ransom note probably killed the child?
THOMAS: I would agree 100 percent.
P. RAMSEY: I would agree with that.
KING: OK, now your contention is she wrote the note.
THOMAS: I do.
KING: What do you base that on?
THOMAS: I do. I base that on questioned document examiners. By the time I left the Boulder Police Department in June of 1998, Patsy out of 73 suspects whose handwriting had been looked at, you were the only one who showed evidence to suggest authorship.
J. RAMSEY: Steve that is -- then why would Patsy respond to that (INAUDIBLE) Steve.
KING: Why then didn't they go right in and arrest? Why didn't they once you broke...
THOMAS: Probable cause. These people know better than anybody probable cause was not the issue in this case. Patsy, you could have been arrested in this case. P. RAMSEY: I wish I had been and then we would have had a free and fair trial and you would have met your Waterloo, Mr. Thomas.
THOMAS: Are you saying that you would have...
J. RAMSEY: Let's talk about the 73 suspects.
THOMAS: Let her answer the question, John.
J. RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) Steve. You assaulted my wife.
THOMAS: Why won't you let your wife answer the question?
J. RAMSEY: Because you have assaulted her. You have called her a murderer. You have checked 73 suspects and said because Patsy's handwriting was the only one that couldn't be eliminated therefore she is a murderer. That is absurd. You would have to check six billion people.
THOMAS: So why did she change her handwriting after the homicide?
P. RAMSEY: I did not change my handwriting, Mr. Thomas.
THOMAS: Why would questioned document experts and people who looked at the ransom note suggest that you changed handwriting habits after the homicide?
J. RAMSEY: We have not heard that. That is not what our experts have said.
P. RAMSEY: Not heard that.
THOMAS: Can Patsy answer the question, Mr. Ramsey?
J. RAMSEY: If you're going to continue to assault her, I will continue to answer the questions.
KING: Well she came on the show tonight. I'm assuming she's capable of answering questions here.
J. RAMSEY: She's very capable of answering your questions.
P. RAMSEY: I still haven't heard the theory yet. I totally agree that whoever...
KING: Well he believes you wrote the note.
P. RAMSEY: ...whoever wrote this ransom note killed our daughter. Yes, I concur wholeheartedly.
KING: No, he believes you wrote the note.
P. RAMSEY: Now let's hear, what I want to hear is how is it exactly that you think that I killed my daughter?
KING: What's the motive?
P. RAMSEY: I just cannot understand that. I want to hear it from start to finish.
P. RAMSEY: Tell me exactly what happened.
THOMAS: ...I wasn't there. You were home that night and apparently you said -- you can't...
P. RAMSEY: Tell me what happened, Mr. Thomas.
THOMAS: You can't say for certainty. You were in the house right?
P. RAMSEY: Yes, I certainly was.
THOMAS: Am I assuming right?
P. RAMSEY: Answer my question please.
KING: Certainly he wasn't there so he can't know for certain.
J. RAMSEY: He has a theory. He's accused her of murder.
KING: He has to have a theory all right.
J. RAMSEY: What is your theory?
THOMAS: Yes and you've heard the theory.
J. RAMSEY: I have not heard the theory.
THOMAS: I offered a hypothesis.
J. RAMSEY: Please answer my question.
THOMAS: I'm trying to John.
P. RAMSEY: Tell us.
KING: Your theory is?
THOMAS: My theory is that Patsy in a violent confrontation with her daughter...
KING: Accidentally killed her?
THOMAS: No, not accidental, I hypothesize in the sense that it lacked motive, not unlike...
KING: No motive.
THOMAS: ...accidental in that sense. Excuse me John did you have something else? J. RAMSEY: I've got lots else but go ahead.
THOMAS: At that point instead of making a right turn she made a left turn and covered this up. It's not unlike 11,000 other children that have been murdered in this country who are killed feloniously by parents in the last 20 years. I don't see this as that remarkable a case other than what it became.
KING: If it's this pat as you say and the way you make it, it's kind of pat, why has no action been taken against this couple?
J. RAMSEY: Because his theory is contradicted irrefutably by the forensic evidence.
THOMAS: Is that right John? Now why don't you tell us this convoluted sex crime pedophile kidnapper?
J. RAMSEY: If you'd allow me to answer the question please Steve.
KING: What's the (INAUDIBLE)?
J. RAMSEY: We have had some of the world's best forensics experts look at the evidence. They have told us that JonBenet was strangled to death. The last act that this creature did to our daughter was a vicious blow to the head. That is irrefutable.
THOMAS: That's not consistent with...
J. RAMSEY: It's not consistent with your theory and that's my point.
THOMAS: Right but you're suggesting, if I am hearing you correctly, and let me ask you why will you not take the FBI polygraph?
P. RAMSEY: Don't change the subject Steve.
J. RAMSEY: Don't change the subject. Get off it.
KING: I'll get back there.
P. RAMSEY: Come on.
J. RAMSEY: Deal with the -- deal with the topic at hand. We're dealing with big issues here. You've accused us...
THOMAS: Well let's -- let's hear your theory. Let's hear your theory.
J. RAMSEY: You have accused us of murder.
THOMAS: Let's hear your theory Mr. Ramsey. I'm waiting. Let's hear the theory.
P. RAMSEY: We're waiting for you to finish.
J. RAMSEY: Right.
P. RAMSEY: Tell me exactly step by step how you envision that I...
THOMAS: I wasn't there Patsy. You were in the home.
P. RAMSEY: You must have conjured something in your head for you to come out and call me a murderer of my child.
THOMAS: That's (INAUDIBLE). I think you wrote the ransom note.
P. RAMSEY: I want to hear one through ten.
THOMAS: I think you wrote the ransom note.
P. RAMSEY: When did I write this ransom note before or after I killed...
THOMAS: You tell me if you wrote the ransom note.
P. RAMSEY: No, you're the one theorizing here. You tell me.
THOMAS: You were in the house that night and, John, you can't say for certain.
KING: Well actually it's circumstantial (INAUDIBLE).
THOMAS: Yes, and John you can't say for certain who did or did not kill JonBenet because you have said you were asleep. You cannot say for certain because you weren't there.
J. RAMSEY: I want to hear your theory Steve. Let me ask you this. Are you prepared to state that Patsy killed JonBenet, that I covered it up, and that you can prove that in a court of law? Are you prepared to say that tonight?
THOMAS: I've written a book and I stand by my book.
KING: Your book said that.
THOMAS: My book stands on its own. I haven't heard this pedophile kidnapper murderer theory.
KING: So you mean their theory?
THOMAS: They're all options.
P. RAMSEY: And you will say that in a court of law (INAUDIBLE).
THOMAS: Certainly we considered options in this case.
KING: We're back now with an old friend, Lin Wood. You've known the Ramseys for a while. How would you describe Patsy?
WOOD: The word that comes to mind first when I think of Patsy is the word remarkable. She was courageous. When Patsy Ramsey walked into a room the room got brighter. She was an eternal optimist, always upbeat, someone who was not going to let you sit around and be depressed or worry. She was going to turn it around and bring some joy into your life or the lives of the people that she touched.
Patsy, Larry, unbeknownst to anyone throughout the last many years reached out privately to victims of cancer, to parents who had lost children. She was a warm, giving and loving person and I know how much I will miss her and I can only imagine how much her family and her other friends will miss her too.
KING: We'll be right back with more reflections from Lin, but first more from the Ramsey/Thomas debate.
KING: What do you as a -- when you're a detective, this fascinates me, do you guess as to motive when you're looking into a crime like why was this child killed for what purpose?
KING: OK. And in this case you came to the conclusion that it was sort of in a rage?
THOMAS: Yes, I don't think that there was any premeditation to this child being killed.
J. RAMSEY: But let me ask you this Steve.
THOMAS: You're still not answering my question, Mr. Ramsey.
J. RAMSEY: What in our background did you find and our background has been investigated for three and a half years, what in our background did you find that would show that we were capable of this horrible crime?
THOMAS: You play right into it. I don't show that there's a motive in this case. I don't suggest that.
J. RAMSEY: You didn't answer my question. What did you find in our background that would demonstrate that we were capable of this kind of a horrible crime?
THOMAS: Well, I gave you a pass, John, unless you want to say otherwise. I don't think you were involved.
J. RAMSEY: I'm asking...
P. RAMSEY: We, he said we.
J. RAMSEY: ...about -- you accused Patsy of murder, me of complicity. What in Patsy's past? P. RAMSEY: What in my past have you seen that has ever indicated that I would be capable of doing something like this?
P. RAMSEY: Those 11,000 parents that you state did they have a past?
THOMAS: I'll ask you a question right back.
P. RAMSEY: I don't want a question right back. I want (INAUDIBLE).
KING: All right.
THOMAS: You suggest this great conspiracy.
J. RAMSEY: Answer the question.
THOMAS: I'm trying to answer the question.
KING: Let me get -- all right, let me get a break. Let me get a break and then we'll have to add more direct questions and answers.
P. RAMSEY: He never answers the question.
KING: All right, we'll be right back with Steve Thomas and the Ramseys. Don't go away.
KING: The key to this you're saying is the note. That's the whole key?
THOMAS: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I've heard Patsy Ramsey say on national television that even their own experts cannot eliminate her as the author of the note. And, a follow-up question to that is she says there are people who rate higher on that scale, who are potential suspects and I'd ask you who? Who are these people?
J. RAMSEY: None of your business Steve because you're no longer a police detective.
J. RAMSEY: Let me ask you...
KING: Your contention is it is based on your belief she wrote the note.
THOMAS: Primarily yes sir.
J. RAMSEY: Answer my question. What in Patsy's background did you find that would cause you to believe that she could commit this horrible act?
THOMAS: Well, I'll pose this.
J. RAMSEY: And answer the question please.
KING: Well let him try -- go ahead.
THOMAS: I can't get three words out.
J. RAMSEY: Answer the question. Answer the question.
THOMAS: Let me pose this. Why then after this great conspiracy that you suggest...
J. RAMSEY: Please.
THOMAS: ...would these pediatric experts come in...
J. RAMSEY: Please answer the question Steve.
KING: Well, wait a minute. All right.
THOMAS: Fair is fair Larry.
J. RAMSEY: Can I ask a question and get an answer?
KING: I know but someone could not have a background and still do something violent one day.
J. RAMSEY: Very, very unlikely.
KING: You mean a person commits violence they have committed it before is that (INAUDIBLE)?
THOMAS: According to your theory.
P. RAMSEY: Most probably.
J. RAMSEY: An abuse situation in virtually all the cases there is a history of abuse that's known by the parents, by the authorities, by the social services agencies.
KING: Was a thorough investigation done of the Ramseys and their children? THOMAS: Yes, absolutely.
THOMAS: And why would pediatric medical experts that the Boulder Police Department brought into this case swear out via affidavit that JonBenet had been subjected to prior vaginal trauma?
J. RAMSEY: That's a lie. You're lying Steve.
KING: Wait a minute.
J. RAMSEY: That is a lie.
KING: You're saying they didn't say that?
J. RAMSEY: Our pediatrician, who say JonBenet a dozen times each year for the past three years before this happened has sworn and testified in public that he saw no evidence of sexual abuse.
KING: And what was the evidence your pediatrician saw?
THOMAS: Well not my pediatricians, pediatric experts that were brought into this case.
J. RAMSEY: Who are they Steve?
THOMAS: A blue ribbon medical panel.
J. RAMSEY: Can I ask you who they are?
KING: Said? Said?
THOMAS: Said that this little girl prior to the night she died had been subjected to previous vaginal trauma.
P. RAMSEY: That is a lie.
J. RAMSEY: Could I ask who they are because this is in the same category as the so-called linguistics expert who he brought in and testified that Patsy...
KING: Let me ask you what's his motive? What do you think? Why -- you think he's out to get you?
J. RAMSEY: I think his motive -- I think at this point he's a profiteer. He's the only person from inside the system who has written a book, who has gone on national television. It's disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful.
KING: He quit his job over this so obviously...
P. RAMSEY: Because he was headed down the wrong path. He was at the point of no return. His ego is the size of a barn.
THOMAS: I don't think so. P. RAMSEY: And he can't put it aside to try to find the murderer of this child.
THOMAS: I don't think so, Patsy. Everybody -- everybody is wrong by Lou Smith.
P. RAMSEY: That's right. That's what it says in your book. Everybody that he talks to is wrong.
THOMAS: Everybody is wrong by Lou Smith, the FBI, federal law enforcement, the FBI polygraphy unit, state law enforcement, the governor of Colorado, the police detectives, the D.A.'s office.
KING: They would have been arrested.
P. RAMSEY: Did they show -- did all of those people show all of their evidence to the grand jurors?
THOMAS: Let's remember the grand jury did not exonerate you either.
P. RAMSEY: Why didn't they come.
J. RAMSEY: It's not the grand jury's task to exonerate. Their task is to indict.
THOMAS: I think the grand jury may have issued a report had they...
J. RAMSEY: Steve, that is speculation.
THOMAS: You were the target of this grand jury.
J. RAMSEY: No question.
THOMAS: You know it.
J. RAMSEY: I know that.
THOMAS: And probable cause wasn't an issue and Patsy tonight I think I've heard her say she wished she was arrested in this case.
KING: Well because they feel it would be an end if they had a trial.
J. RAMSEY: We've been tried in public by innuendo and slander...
P. RAMSEY: For three years.
J. RAMSEY: ...from people like you. Yes, God knows we'd have loved to have had a fair trial.
THOMAS: I don't apologize for the book. I left a career, Larry, as you said. I wrote the book for the same reason that you did to get information out publicly.
J. RAMSEY: No, you wrote that book to line your pockets with money based on our tragedy.
THOMAS: That's not true and as a matter of fact I think you wrote a book as well and took money for that.
J. RAMSEY: It's going to charity. Tell me what you did the money (INAUDIBLE).
THOMAS: And I think you've also said -- I think you've also said it's going to a legal defense fund.
J. RAMSEY: No.
KING: On the other said that one of the reasons this case is unsolved is him.
J. RAMSEY: Absolutely.
J. RAMSEY: Because he failed miserably in his -- the task he was given. He was inexperienced. He didn't accept help from people.
KING: You think he had the opportunity to solve it at that point?
J. RAMSEY: He jumped to conclusions. I think experienced homicide investigators could have solved this case by now.
P. RAMSEY: You know it's not all Steve Thomas' fault.
THOMAS: The FBI -- the FBI...
P. RAMSEY: You know it is not all this young man's fault. He did not have good leadership in his department to lead him down a path of experience. You know you can't fault the man for that truly.
KING: Can you understand, Patsy, why you were suspects?
P. RAMSEY: I can understand that. I can understand that.
KING: Can you understand that? It occurred in your house.
P. RAMSEY: I can understand because there was no one leading this man with any leadership capability to investigate the homicide of a young child. I understand that. I know the first time that I interviewed with then Detective Thomas I saw the passion in the man's eyes. He wants to find the killer of this child. It's just that he's going down the wrong path.
P. RAMSEY: Now what I do -- well, you know, I felt sorry for the man truly. We know we're not guilty. He is convinced that we are. Now I am sorry for that.
KING: Somebody is wrong. P. RAMSEY: He has -- his career has suffered.
J. RAMSEY: And we know who didn't.
P. RAMSEY: He's a young man. He was, you know, very young in his career. He has lost his job. You know he doesn't even have a family yet I don't believe. Perhaps you're married. God willing if you ever have a child one day you will know the pain perhaps. When someone hands you the child in your arms and says "Mr. Thomas, this is your child" do you tell me that you're going to look at that child and" -- you just had a new baby, Larry. Could you ever conceive of doing something to this child?
KING: I can't imagine how anyone could harm a child (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Welcome back. Tonight we're remembering Patsy Ramsey, who died last week after a long fight with cancer. With us to share his reflections is long-time family friend and attorney Lin Wood. Lin was at Thursday's memorial service. Lin, tell us about it.
WOOD: It was a moving day. I had the honor of serving as a pallbearer for Patsy along with her other attorney who had represented her in the criminal investigation, Pat Burke from Boulder. And along with her very handsome son, Burke, who has just completed his first year in college.
Hundreds of close friends attended the services. A very beautiful graveside service, buried by JonBenet, next to her mother, Nidra, and also obviously Beth, John's oldest daughter. I'll tell you one thing I was struck by, and that's the fact that there were people that came from all over the country. A lot of folks came from Michigan, where the Ramseys had a summer home and then moved a few years ago and maintained a residence there.
A number of people from Colorado from the Boulder, Denver area, as well as obviously a large number of friends from Atlanta. One of those individuals that came out from Boulder, Larry, was the district attorney of Boulder, Mary Lacy. And she and her husband made the trip to pay her respects to Patsy. And you know, they say a picture's worth a thousand words. I think that Mary Lacy, who's in charge of the JonBenet murder investigation, when she made the decision to come pay her respects to Patsy, it spoke one word and it spoke that word very clearly. And that word is innocent.
KING: Patsy's now buried next to JonBenet. How important was that to her?
WOOD: Well, I can tell you from discussions with Patsy and things I've heard her say to others that last Saturday, when she passed away, there was no doubt in her mind that she was finally reunited with her daughter, JonBenet, in what she had described as a day that would be a glorious reunion. She wanted her services to be a celebration.
That's the way Patsy lived. She was always upbeat. And so it was difficult at times, but everyone kept in mind what Patsy wanted. A lot of her friends wore red hats. That was one of her requests. But obviously, to be laid to rest by JonBenet, in her mind and in her spirit and in her faith, finally reunited with her daughter, in peace finally for Patsy.
KING: Here's more of Patsy Ramsey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, JONBENET RAMSEY'S MOM: The first thing I remember is waking up, getting dressed hurriedly, going downstairs, and putting a few things together to pack to take on the plane.
KING: This is about what time?
P. RAMSEY: It's early morning, before daylight.
KING: You're up?
P. RAMSEY: Yes.
KING: Then what happens?
P. RAMSEY: Then I go down the spiral staircase, and there on one of the rungs of the stair is the three-page ransom note.
KING: And no one has entered the house? The door isn't open. You read the note.
P. RAMSEY: I don't know that.
KING: What did you do?
P. RAMSEY: I hurriedly read it, you know. And it didn't take long to understand what was happening. And I ran back upstairs and pushed open her bedroom door, and she was gone.
KING: Did you think it, you knew it was her by the note, right?
P. RAMSEY: Well, it said your daughter.
KING: You were not concerned about Burke? Did you check Burke?
P. RAMSEY: We checked very quickly.
KING: You brought the note to John?
P. RAMSEY: I don't remember. I tell you, you know that morning was so chaotic. I started screaming there's a note.
KING: And you look JonBenet's room. She's not there. What's the first thing you do?
JOHN RAMSEY, JONBENET'S FATHER: Larry, we don't remember. This is three years ago. We've been through it a hundred times.
KING: You wrote a book about it. So you must have said ...
J. RAMSEY: We outlined it in the book.
J. RAMSEY: I felt like I'd been kicked by a horse. The most horrible feeling. If you've ever had that pang of missing your child in a shopping center, just for a moment? That pain hit me squarely between the eyes. And it never left. It was a horrible feeling.
P. RAMSEY: You don't know what to do first. You don't know what to do. You're just panicking.
KING: Call the police right away?
J. RAMSEY: We did.
KING: 911 or ...
J. RAMSEY: 911.
KING: And what do they do?
J. RAMSEY: They, a uniformed police officer arrived relatively quick quickly, and I said, I handed him the note. I said my daughter's been taken. He said, you don't think she just ran away? I said for heaven's sake she's 6 years old, no, she didn't run away.
KING: No sign of foul play at this point?
P. RAMSEY: We weren't looking, we were concerned ...
KING: I mean no foul play in her room.
P. RAMSEY: We went back into her room, she was not in --
KING: So what did the officer do?
J. RAMSEY: Asked us to go into one room. Put us in one room.
KING: And he searched the house?
J. RAMSEY: We don't, I don't know what he did.
KING: This is hard, when was the first time you saw your daughter? after all of this. You got the note. How long after this did you see JonBenet?
J. RAMSEY: When did they find her?
J. RAMSEY: Well, they found her later that morning.
KING: Hours later?
J. RAMSEY: Hours.
KING: What were you doing those hours? You're thinking she's been kidnapped?
J. RAMSEY: Oh, absolutely. We thought we were dealing with a kidnapping.
KING: Fearing the worst.
P. RAMSEY: Police arrive.
J. RAMSEY: Absolutely. You don't know whether you're going to see your daughter in an hour, in a day, in a year, in ten years, or never. It's a horrible feeling.
KING: Police comb the house?
J. RAMSEY: Apparently not well, but they did.
KING: I mean, they looked down in the basement, looked everywhere they were supposed to look? Did they put that yellow thing they put around the house of a crime scene?
J. RAMSEY: No.
KING: Never did. What are you going through at this point?
P. RAMSEY: Agony. Sheer horrified terror.
KING: Back now with Lin Wood on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Lin, Patsy was sick for a long time. How did she deal with her cancer?
WOOD: She was first diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer in 1993. And that's a diagnosis that is invariably expected to be fatal within usually a matter of months. She underwent an experimental program at the National Institute of Health, where she received massive toxic doses of chemotherapy. And she was after that initial treatment cancer-free for almost nine years. She learned that she had had a recurrence in January of 2002. And since that time, she has periodically undergone chemotherapy and other forms of treatment to try to manage the condition. And she fought as hard a battle as anyone could fight against a vicious disease, and managed to continue to live a very rich and fulfilling life up until, sadly, the last couple weeks of her life, when she deteriorated rapidly.
KING: She started a foundation, right?
WOOD: She faced with courage.
KING: She started a foundation? WOOD: She did. The Patsy P. Ramsey Ovarian Cancer Foundation. Her friends have come together to form that foundation in her honor, hopefully to be able to give assistance to other individuals who are fighting that same vicious disease.
KING: What were her last days like?
WOOD: Well, I saw her a couple of weeks ago, a couple of weeks before her death, and she was, she was tired. I think she recognized that she was finally not going to win the battle. She made a comment to me after we had shared breakfast together that she hoped the investigators out in Boulder would hurry up and catch the killer of her child. In her words she said, because I'm about to conk out.
And then after that, as many people have experienced with relatives and loved ones, the disease rapidly deteriorated to the point where in her final days she was sedated and in a very restful, peaceful, basically a comatose state. So any of these stories that people hear about deathbed confessions, which it wouldn't surprise me for people to see in the tabloids, there was no deathbed confession. Patsy Ramsey had nothing to confess. She was an innocent woman who, sadly, was a victim of the murder of her child.
KING: We'll be back with Lin in a moment. Now more from my 2000 interview with Patsy and John.
KING: Now, the toughest part of all, John. How do you find your daughter?
J. RAMSEY: I found her after Linda Arndt (ph) asked us to go through the house, look for anything out of ordinary, out of place, and I found her in the basement.
J. RAMSEY: She was in a room that probably originally was a coal cellar, four concrete wall room. I knew instantly when I opened the door that I'd found her.
KING: Did you know she was dead?
J. RAMSEY: No, I didn't. I had this rush of just thank God I found her. Her hands were tied. She had tape over her mouth. I removed the tape immediately. I could feel that her skin was cool. And I feared the worst. But I still held out hope that she would be OK.
KING: And with the police officer in the house at that time, why didn't you just, you picked the child up, right?
J. RAMSEY: Yes.
KING: Why didn't you call a police officer to come right over and ... J. RAMSEY: This was my daughter. This is my child. I loved her.
P. RAMSEY: It's an instinctive reaction.
KING: Where were you, Patsy?
P. RAMSEY: I was upstairs with ...
KING: You told Patsy?
J. RAMSEY: I don't remember the sequence. I picked JonBenet up. I carried her upstairs.
KING: The police officers didn't complain about that?
J. RAMSEY: No.
KING: Because usually ...
P. RAMSEY: It all happened so fast.
J. RAMSEY: Listen, I found my daughter.
KING: I understand, I'm a father.
J. RAMSEY: I wasn't going to step back and say whoops, I'm not going to touch this, this is a crime scene. I found my precious daughter. And I was, thank God I found her.
KING: Did you try anything to revive her?
J. RAMSEY: I took the tape off her mouth. I tried to untie her arms. They were very tightly bound. I couldn't get the knot undone. And then I just, I picked her up, and I just screamed. The kind of scream you scream in a dream, when you're trying to speak but you can't. It's just a scream.
KING: Did you see her too?
P. RAMSEY: I heard him scream.
KING: You never saw her?
P. RAMSEY: Yes, I did then see her. My friends were, I was in the TV room, and they were, I said what is it? What is it? And they kept holding me, wait, I don't what it is. One of our friends ran into the room and said we need an ambulance, tried to dial 911. And I kept screaming, what is it? What is it? And you know, then just a couple minutes and I walked into the living room.
KING: What did the police say? Did they say anything?
J. RAMSEY: Well, Linda Arndt was the only police person that was there that I recall ...
KING: The others had left?
J. RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. There were a lot of people.
KING: It was a blur to you?
J. RAMSEY: It was a blur. We had victims' advocates there, we had uniformed police, we had detectives. People in the kitchen making sandwiches. I mean, it was chaos.
P. RAMSEY: People finger printing. There was fingerprint dust everywhere.
J. RAMSEY: The evidence crew was there.
KING: It was zoo-like.
J. RAMSEY: It was a little zoo-like. And when I brought JonBenet up, Linda Arndt knelt over and I guess felt for a pulse and looked at me and said, she's dead.
KING: Did you ever think, because what can you think at a time like this? Why would someone send a ransom note to kidnap someone and then kill them and leave them in the same house if the purpose is to get money?
J. RAMSEY: Larry, this person is a madman, is a monster. They don't think logically.
J. RAMSEY: We think it was a pedophile. We think it was a male. There's several key pieces of evidence that we think will lead us to the killer. Male, pedophile. We think a stun gun was involved. So this person either had a stun gun or had access to one. The number 118 had significance to this person, 118,000 was the amount of the ransom. That was picked for a purpose. We don't know what the purpose is. SBTC meant something to this killer. That was how the ransom note was signed. And this person was in Boulder, Colorado on December 25th. We're not looking for a needle in a haystack.
KING: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
P. RAMSEY: I don't believe there's conclusive evidence of that.
J. RAMSEY: We don't know.
KING: Did they send you the autopsy report?
J. RAMSEY: No. The police have not talked to us at all. We don't know what's been done ...
KING: They've questioned you right?
J. RAMSEY: Oh, they've questioned us extensively.
KING: But they haven't told you anything about, you have not seen the death certificate?
J. RAMSEY: No.
P. RAMSEY: No.
KING: You don't know how your daughter died.
J. RAMSEY: We do. She was strangled.
KING: That's the cause of death
J. RAMSEY: That's the cause of death.
KING: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?
J. RAMSEY: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Roberts in Washington. Ahead on "360," fresh and troubling allegations that American soldiers committed war crimes in Iraq. Again, they are only allegations but the Pentagon is taking them very seriously. Tonight, where the investigation stands. And a closer look at where it happened from a former marine who patrolled there and was himself accused and cleared of some very serious charges.
Also tonight a "360" special hour, tracking the FBI's ten most wanted with Anderson and John Walsh.
And to top it all off, a president, a prime minister, and the king. Elvis, that is. All tonight. All ahead on "360."
KING: We're back with the Ramseys. You almost immediately became suspects. You know why? Or the public perception of suspects.
J. RAMSEY: Well ...
KING: Was it because of the pageants?
P. RAMSEY: It was way before that.
J. RAMSEY: The tragedy of this investigation was it ended on December 26th. Linda Arndt, the lead detective that was there, went on national television a few months ago and said I knew the father did it because I saw it in his eyes on the 26th. I didn't act right. I was too calm, cordial.
KING: How did you react when she said that?
J. RAMSEY: It was a bit incredulous, but it also illustrated the bias we were dealing with from the very beginning.
KING: All right. But do you think that had something to do with the fact that your daughter entered pageants?
P. RAMSEY: I think the decision was made at that time. At that time Detective Arndt didn't know JonBenet.
KING: When did the public first see pictures of JonBenet in her outfit?
P. RAMSEY: I think that wasn't until after the first of the year.
KING: A week later?
P. RAMSEY: I really don't know exactly.
KING: But don't you think, John, that that caused a stir in people? Most people say I wouldn't have my child do that, even though many do.
J. RAMSEY: Many do. It was a wonderful thing that Patsy and JonBenet enjoyed doing together. It was certainly misinterpreted, I think. And it's one of those things that the eyes of the beholder ...
KING: Could have led to those stories, jealousy ...
P. RAMSEY: But that was several days afterward. I mean, we know Linda Arndt made up her mind and the rest of the Boulder police department, we believe, made up their minds on the 26th of December
J. RAMSEY: That it was us.
P. RAMSEY: That it was the parents.
KING: Is that because they found no entrance into the house?
P. RAMSEY: We don't know.
J. RAMSEY: Well, we know, Larry, that a window was open. Under that window was a suitcase, as if a step, for a step to get up through it. We learned later they found a door open. Which I didn't know until almost a year later. That house was not difficult to get into.
P. RAMSEY: The police that were there the morning of the 26th taking evidence have a lot of tangible evidence. They did a good job at collecting evidence. We have fibers. We have DNA. We have a lot of evidence. The problem was that then they did not take the evidence to where it would lead.
KING: Why did they think it was you?
J. RAMSEY: Because the police always go after the parents. And we understood that ...
KING: In the death of a child? J. RAMSEY: Absolutely.
KING: With a ransom note? Really?
J. RAMSEY: Absolutely.
P. RAMSEY: I think in every case parents are always suspected initially. And at first we were aghast at that. But then we understood that we needed to be investigated.
KING: The police said, the police say that you were only, you put guidelines up to the interviews, you'd only be interviewed together. Why?
J. RAMSEY: I don't remember ...
KING: You didn't give them any guidelines?
J. RAMSEY: The only guideline I remember, the only request that we made, and this was after a huge gap of mistrust developed, the police withheld JonBenet's body for burial to try to force us to submit to their terms.
KING: Which were?
J. RAMSEY: That we, the three of us be interrogated in the police station before we buried our daughter. And we were horribly offended at that. And this huge gap of mistrust developed.
KING: Let me tell you what develops in this as a father and what other people say and the reason I think you're under this cloud. Most people would say if I didn't do it and my daughter was killed, I'm talking as a father. And I don't like to bring myself into it. One, I'll answer any question. I'll take any test. I'll meet with you. I'll be there first in the morning. Catch the killer. I'd go nuts. I'd cooperate in every way. I'd go out with the cops. I'd give them my fingers.
P. RAMSEY: We did that, Larry.
J. RAMSEY: We did do that.
KING: You cooperated fully in every way.
J. RAMSEY: We met with them on the 26th. We met with them on the 27th. We gave hair, blood, fiber samples on the 28th. We left ...
P. RAMSEY: We stayed in Boulder, Colorado, we stayed there for testing for, you know ...
KING: Why did they say you were uncooperative? Or some of them.
J. RAMSEY: I don't know. This is, what we need to do is get down to the objective here. The objective is to find the killer. I can say a lot of things about what the police did and didn't do. They can say a lot of things about what we didn't do. But let's put that aside. Let's put politics aside. Let's put egos aside. There is a dangerous killer loose. We believe, this killer, if he's still alive will kill again. It's time to get on with that.
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KING: To be a suspect and live with the death of a child as a suspect as well, how do you get through that?
P. RAMSEY: Well, first of all, we have never been deemed suspects.
KING: Yes, but the public regards you as suspects.
P. RAMSEY: We've been said to be under the umbrella of suspicion, whatever that means.
KING: What's that like?
P. RAMSEY: Well, it's, it's kind of in no man's land, you know.
KING: It's a no win?
J. RAMSEY: Well, we lost our daughter. That's the worst possible thing that could have happened to us. Anything that has happened in the aftermath pales by comparison.
KING: Before we leave you tonight, a few more moments with Lin Wood. Lin, did Patsy ever have real peace?
WOOD: She was an individual of deep religious faith and belief. And I think she was by virtue of that faith always at peace. That's the amazing thing about Patsy Ramsey and John, that they were able to endure so many challenges and yet be able to live a life that clearly was one of dignity and grace. And so they had that peace, that inner peace that comes from their faith. And she always exhibited, there was never one time when she wavered in her faith or lost an opportunity to spend time with a loved one or a friend to share her love.
KING: Thank you, Lin. It's always good seeing you. I hope next time under better circumstances. Thanks for sharing your memories of Patsy. Our thoughts go to John and the rest of the Ramsey family during this difficult time. We thank you for joining us. "AC 360" is next, good night.
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