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Nancy Grace
Was Tennessee Minister Shot by Wife?; Did Financial Trouble Drive Mary Winkler to Murder?; Michael Jackson`s Courtroom Drama Continues
Aired July 05, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, new allegations about why a Tennessee minister was allegedly shot by his own wife, the mother of their three children. Did an international check scam and financial troubles drive Mary Winkler to murder?
Also tonight, pop icon Michael Jackson facing more legal troubles. A multimillion dollar lawsuit takes center stage in a California court. Jackson making plans to leave Bahrain and head for Europe. Believe it or not.
And tonight we are taking your calls.
But first tonight, to Tennessee and the murder one charges against a preacher`s wife.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . as (ph) they (ph) remember me holding the shotgun, hearing the phone (ph), and then smoke. He asked me why, and I just said, I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell sitting in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the wife of a Tennessee minister sits behind bars accused in the shooting death of her husband. What led to this horrific scene inside the church parsonage? Now word that money, yes, money, may be a big part of the motive. And there`s talk of something called the Nigerian type check scam. To bring us up to date on all of these new developments, let`s go straight out to WREC Radio reporter Liz Daulton, who`s been tracking this case from the very start.
Liz, what is the latest?
LIZ DAULTON, REPORTER, WREC RADIO: The latest is that finances has become the center of the argument. It is stating that Mary Winkler had opened two bank accounts in recent months before the murder occurred. And that there was some check kiting going on and that the financial problems had been discovered by her husband.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And these financial problems are absolutely fascinating. Correct me, Liz, if I`m wrong, but word from the prosecutors is that she deposited two checks, one from Nigeria or some Nigerian connection, another Canadian connection totaling $17,500 into the family account, then wrote another check to her own personal account and then began going to the cash machines and taking out $100 at a time for a total of $500. Is that your understanding?
DAULTON: From my understanding, there are two bank accounts that had her name on it only. I`m not sure if it had to do with the actual family accounts. But I know that there was a Canadian check being written and Nigerian checks being written as well in those two accounts in the amount of $17,000.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then she did apparently try to take some money out.
DAULTON: She did apparently try to take the money out but what happened was she had to take several different transactions because her ATM limit was $100.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Aha. Very interesting. Let`s go straight out to Donna Rosato. She is a staff writer for Money magazine.
You have been hearing all these details coming in, do they dovetail with what is called the Nigerian check scam?
DONNA ROSATO, STAFF WRITER, MONEY: Yes, they do. The Nigerian check scam is also known as an advanced fee fraud scheme. And it`s generally how it works, someone gets in touch with you and asks you to help them retrieve money and they ask -- they send you a check, which is generally a fraudulent check that you don`t know about, asking to you deposit it and then gives you a portion of that money as a reward for helping them out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it illegal if somebody knowingly breaking the law?
ROSATO: Certainly the person is breaking the law who is getting in touch with you. The trouble is, most of these people who get in touch with you are in foreign countries and it`s very hard to prosecute something like this. This is usually someone from Nigeria, Canada, not someone in the U.S. who is reaching out to someone in the U.S. to do it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But if Mary Winkler was involved, and again, that`s a big if at this point, this is what the prosecution is contending that they have learned, would she have been breaking the law? Could it result in additional charges?
ROSATO: It depends on what she knew. Indeed, some people of these kind of schemes are really victims and they don`t -- and they believe what they are told, that they are trying to help somebody. It depends on what she knows and what she thought that she was doing. Often people are trying to help this person, and they do illegal things in the idea that they believe that they`re trying to actually help somebody.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she is a minister`s wife so that`s a possibility right there. Now in her statement to authorities, when she was captured, she purportedly spoke about a conversation she had with her husband the night before he died in which they talked about money problems.
Listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "(INAUDIBLE) we had also talked about our finances that night. I had gotten the call that we were having troubles, mostly my fault, bad bookkeeping. He was upset with me about that. I was upset at him, because he had really been a (INAUDIBLE), criticizing me for things, the way I walked, what I eat, everything. It was just building up to this point. I was just tired of it. I guess I just got to a point and snapped."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so that`s an agent basically reading what Mary Winkler purportedly said when she was captured. Let`s go straight out to J. Buzz Von Orensteiner, Ph.D., forensic clinical psychologist.
I hope I got your name correctly there, sir.
J. BUZZ VON ORENSTEINER, FORENSIC CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: You did.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I want to ask you about what was just said, Mary Winkler purportedly talking not only about money problems, but about the fact that she may have been picked on allegedly by her husband, that he was criticizing everything. Does that ad up to motive for murder?
VON ORENSTEINER: What her perception was is that she was being abused. And when we look at marriages, listen, all marriages have problems. All relationships have problems. We all fight. That`s the fundamental pattern of human relationships is that they`re going to be disagreements.
But it`s how these communications, how those disagreements go through with the two people involved. Clearly, she didn`t see him as a support and clearly she felt very isolated. She also felt a great deal -- or so it appears to be, she felt a great deal of guilt, shame and humiliation, and we know, we know those feelings, those emotions cause long-term damage, and they ruminate, they perseverate in the person`s brain, especially when they don`t have any way to talk about it or any sense of support. And they are really the groundwork for really fueling rage behaviors.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we`ve heard also that as a minister`s wife, she was prone to feeling isolated, may not have had friends to turn to.
So all of this, and I want to ask prosecutor Holly Hughes, do you see it adding up as a motive for murder? You`ve got these money issues which we`re going to get back to which are absolutely fascinating. You`ve got the claims that the husband is picking on her, criticizing everything, does that translate to pulling a trigger?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Jane, I think what you have here is a woman trying to make excuses. She has clearly gone around the bend or snapped, as she said in her confession, was the language she used.
But this is a woman who is a chameleon. Everyone is talking about how she is a victim. Her defense attorneys have come out and said she`s a victim here. I think that this woman did not behave like a victim. A victim, when she found out she had been tricked, would have called her husband and said oh, my God, honey, you know, something happened. I got these checks, I thought I was helping someone, being a good minister`s wife and all of the sudden...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, wait a second, if she trusted him and wasn`t afraid of him she would do that. But if she lived in fear of him, she might have felt she couldn`t express that horrible thing that she did to her husband.
HUGHES: Jane, there has been no evidence whatsoever. Everybody who has been interviewed, all of the friends, all of the parishioners, everyone has said, and even the police have come out and said there were no prior incidents of domestic abuse, there have been no claims in the past that such a relationship existed, that she was in fear of her husband.
There is absolutely nothing to substantiate that she should have been afraid of him. And to be perfectly blunt, Jane, if criticism is a reason for murder, well, I think we all better watch out, because if you don`t like what I eat or what I -- you know, how I walk and suddenly that`s a reason for me to take a gun and shoot you, the whole country`s in trouble. I think that`s insane. I don`t think this woman`s a victim.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you`re making some excellent points. But let me go back to Liz Daulton, a reporter for WREC Radio who has been covering this from the very start. Had there been any hints that behind closed doors that things were not as rosy with this couple at they may have seen, for example, at church. I know that her the defense attorney said that when her three children visited her in jail they said, mom, your hands look beautiful and there was an oblique reference that this attorney made that sometimes her hands had marks on them. He wouldn`t elaborate but he said read into it whatever you will, or words to that effect. So what do you know? What have you been hearing about their relationship?
DAULTON: I think the problem is that we`re all hearing so many different things. And what goes on behind closed doors, none of us have been able to tell because the person who needs to speak hasn`t been able to tell and hasn`t gone on to the stand yet. So I don`t know anything more than anybody else knows.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, I want to go -- and we are very happy and delighted to have with us tonight financial radio talk show host David Ramsey, who is also the author of "Total Money Makeover," I want to read that book for sure.
Listen, I want to ask you this question. Can this kind of a money problem, even, let`s say it`s involving $17,500, drive somebody to murder their husband or does it have to be a lot more money than that?
DAVE RAMSEY, FINANCIAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I don`t know how many zeroes it takes, and I don`t know what it takes to murder your husband, but I think what Dr. J. said a minute ago is very true.
Most relationships have conflict. And the statistics tell us the number one cause of divorce, the number one thing we fight about in America in our marriages today, is money and money problems, because we are fighting over power flow in the relationship. We are fighting over communication issues in the relationship.
And certainly all relationships can go to the brink apparently and goodness knows what causes somebody to shoot their husband. It just sounds like a horribly sad situation all the way around.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, but, Dave, it`s especially sad because this was supposedly a spiritual couple and yet here they are trapped in this vortex of money and that would seem to indicate materialism. Do you see any dichotomy there?
RAMSEY: No, not really. Ministers are people. And they`re people that love people and serve people. And a lot of them don`t get paid a lot of money. And so it`s not unusual for ministers to struggle financially and they`re humans.
They have marriage problems just like anybody else, they have money problems just like anybody else. The only thing that happens is that because they are held out as a spiritual leader in the community, many times the guilt and the shame that was mentioned earlier is -- it really goes to even a greater level, which is a very sad thing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Not only that, they had three daughters, it`s expensive to raise children. And on top of that, being a minister`s wife, she might have to live up to a certain standard of living in terms of clothes, in terms of how she comports herself, that can be added pressure. We have got a caller on the line.
Amy, Pennsylvania, your question, ma`am? Amy? Oh, Amy?
CALLER: Hello?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, we lost her. But.
CALLER: Hello?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.
CALLER: Hi. I just wanted to say this whole case is making me so angry because from the very beginning, Mary was held out to be like some victim, oh, what did the husband do? It must have been his fault that he was murdered. And now we`re hearing that oh, she was the one who made some mistakes and still some of your guests are saying, whoa, he must have made her afraid to tell him, almost like he`s not the victim.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you, again, raise a very, very good point. And I`d like to ask the defense attorney, Michael Mazzariello, about this.
Is all this new information, painting her as less of a sympathetic figure than she had been initially, initially she was sort of this confused woman, this mother, and our heart sort of went out to her just instinctively. But now we`re hearing these details about possible money scams. Has that changed the whole perception of who she is?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I think it changes for the better for her, for the defense anyway. And she wouldn`t be the first woman that was physically or mentally abused that there was no documentation to that effect.
I like the angle that her husband is a minister. The guilt, she couldn`t come forward. The comment about the hands really intrigues me. And to shoot your husband over $17,500, although I have handled cases where people have been killed for less, $1, I think it bodes well for her, not badly at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, "INSIDE EDITION"`s Jim Moret, you have covered many of these cases. Do you think this is going to poison the jury pool or can she play this to her advantage, all of this financial information that is coming out?
JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, let`s take back a step for a second, because we heard her statement to authorities that there were some bookkeeping issues. Now it may be semantics, but that`s a whole different world from this check kiting scheme.
If she`s in fact a participant and not a victim of this check kiting scheme, you are not talking about a victim at all and you are not talking about bookkeeping issues. There are so many scenarios that we simply don`t know, because the facts haven`t come forth yet.
And do I think that the jury pool will be contaminated? I don`t think any more than any other case. Let`s face it, many cases are dealt with every night on the media. And, frankly, you`re able to have fair trials.
But I don`t think you can call this woman a victim yet. I think you have to wait until more facts come out. And it certainly seems that there`s evidence, at least the prosecutors believe she`s not a victim at all but a participant in a check kiting scheme.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have another caller.
Cindy from North Carolina, your question?
CALLER: Yes. My -- minister`s wives are always held to such a high standard. They don`t feel like they have anybody to talk to. Is there any psychological test being done, showing that this lady may be bipolar?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Forensic clinical psychologist Von Orensteiner, Dr. Von Orensteiner, what`s your thought? I heard that she had suffered possibly from postpartum depression. She has a 1-year-old child, so that probably was at least six months ago that she was suffering from that, in fact, if she was. What other psychological problems could she be facing?
VON ORENSTEINER: Well, I think just the things that we have mentioned, when someone is in isolation or someone feels they can`t talk about their issues or concerns or they don`t feel that their spouse, their husband, their significant other is supportive, or don`t perceive them to be supportive, now that`s a very different issue right there.
Her perception may have been somewhat skewed. In addition to that, it`s my understanding to the research that while she`s been incarcerated, she actually has taken some medication that was not prescribed to her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, actually, I think they grabbed it from her before she could take it. But it is very significant that she would seek out a prescription drug that she doesn`t have a prescription for. What does that tell you?
VON ORENSTEINER: Well, to me, personally, this is someone who is screaming out for some kind of medication, that she feels that she could benefit from medication. So with that in mind, I`m surprised that she hasn`t sought out any kind of psychotherapy or hasn`t wanted to speak with a psychologist or a social worker. I understand her children, though, are seeing counselors.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, we`ll have more on this in a second.
To tonight`s "Case Alert": Former Enron Chairman and CEO Kenneth Lay dies of a massive heart attack in Aspen, Colorado. Lay was convicted in May on multiple counts of conspiracy and fraud in one of the biggest corporate scandals in U.S. history. Lay was set to be sentenced this October and faced the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison. Kenneth Lay, dead at 64.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no evidence of foul play. The postmortem examination revealed that Mr. Lay had severe coronary artery disease. There was evidence that he had had a heart attack in the past. The only aspects of the examination that are outstanding at this particular point are toxicology and microscopic analysis of tissues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in tonight for Nancy Grace. What role did money play in the murder of a minister allegedly shot by his wife, who sits in jail tonight? Straight out to WREC reporter Liz Daulton.
As we head to an October 30th trial date, we are told the next scheduled court dates in Mary Winkler`s case are August 9th and 11th, where 25, count them, 25 defense motions will begin to be heard. What are these motions about, the key ones anyway?
DAULTON: They have separate motions for everything but the defense is keeping their mouth shut. It was said after court on Friday that the judge has requested that the lawyers do try to maintain some of their ethical liabilities in the case and kind of issued a soft gag order. So the defense hasn`t said anything about what specific motions they`ll be filing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, former prosecutor Holly Hughes, we do know that a lot of the sensational aspects of this case have come out of Mary Winkler`s own statement purportedly given to authorities upon her capture. Now the defense wants to keep that statement out. How can they do that? Because we see this all the time. Something that`s very self-implicating and then suddenly, poof, the jury never gets to hear it.
HUGHES: The way you can keep it out is if procedure was violated in any way, Jane. You have to protect the defendant`s rights when you are questioning her. You need to make sure that it was a voluntary statement, that she knew what she was doing, that she waived her right to have counsel present, that she in fact was advised of those rights to begin with.
And from what I`ve been reading about the case and what I`ve been seeing, it seems that all of those precautions were taken by the police investigators in this case and I don`t think they`re going to be successful.
As to some of the other motions they`re filing, of course, they`ve already made their motion for bond. And the judge has not issued ruling on that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know what, getting back to what I asked you, though, I understand the defense is saying she was tired, she hadn`t slept enough when she gave the statement. Can that be used as an excuse to throw it out?
HUGHES: Absolutely not. First of all, she would have had to say, I don`t know what I`m doing. I`m too tired. I want a lawyer. I want to stop. And she didn`t do any of that. I mean, being tired is absolutely no excuse.
What`s happening here is the woman went ahead, confessed, said what she did and accepted responsibility, and now after the fact, the attorneys have gotten involved and they`re just trying legal maneuvering to keep a jury from hearing the truth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Quick question, Laura, Maryland.
CALLER: I`m wondering if anyone has spoken with the children to find out whether there was any abuse in the family or what they saw.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Liz Daulton, reporter, WREC, what have the children said, if anything, to this point?
DAULTON: The only thing that they`ve said as far as speaking to their mother was it was a very vain (ph) conversation, just the basic, how are you, we haven`t seen you in a few months, they haven`t made any statements to anybody else. They do have a family spokesperson who said that the children haven`t been questioned at this time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And must have been very, very difficult for those three children to visit their mother in jail, see her behind bars, knowing that their father is gone. They have lost, in a sense, both parents. So tragic.
To tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Reno`s district attorney will no longer handle the case of a Nevada millionaire facing murder and attempted murder charges. Washoe County D.A. Dick Gammick hands Darren Mack`s case over to Clark County prosecutors.
Mack is accused in the stabbing death of his wife and the shooting and wounding of a judge who presided over their divorce. D.A. Gammick, who has known Mack for 20 years, says he could be a potential witness.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
: My compassion is for Matthew Winkler`s family. These people are victims. A very terrible tragedy has occurred. What I`m trying to do is see that my client gets a fair trial, nothing else. We don`t want to feel guilted one way or the other. All we want to do is to have this done according to law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. What happened inside a church parsonage when a Tennessee minister was allegedly shot by his own wife? And what about the three young daughters who were taken by their mother when she fled?
Now according to a family friend, the children have been told, "mommy shot daddy." That is based on her confession, even though she hasn`t been convicted yet. And her attorneys are fighting to keep that very statement from the jury. So a couple of questions for forensic clinical psychologist Dr. Von Orensteiner.
Should the kids have been told that, that mommy shot daddy?
VON ORENSTEINER: We`re dealing with a very, very rare occurrence, and of course, every situation has to be judged individually, but the children have been told. So we have to go with that right now. Give them some time for sure to process this. They`ve certainly lost one parent. They`ve lost another parent, really, for at least 15 years.
Give them some time so if they`re talking superficial and they meet and they finally get to meet with their mother in jail, I mean, boy, that`s a step in the right direction in itself. Allow them to communicate and allow them to process this horrific situation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do you stay honest with children? It`s important to be honest but how do you stay honest with them in a situation like this? Do you say, mommy had an allegedly check kiting scheme?
VON ORENSTEINER: Well, the idea is go where the child is at. Maybe the children are not ready to discuss this. It`s my understanding they`re talking about very, very simple, very basic, very human things, and granted when she gets together with her children, they`re talking about how they look, and how their hair is growing, and what`s going on possibly in school.
They are superficial things from an outsider but very loving. They show a certain amount of love and interaction and security for those children who need it right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I guess I`m still wondering, what do you tell them? I mean, they`re going to be out there in the world, at school. What should they be told about what`s going on?
VON ORENSTEIN: Well, again, we know as much as they know, that their parents obviously were not communicating, did not have good reasoning, were not seeking sound solutions. And her mother has a lot of problems, and that`s the only solution her mother felt she had at that time. It was a wrong solution, but it was the only solution she felt she had.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. What happened inside a church parsonage when a Tennessee minister was allegedly shot by his own wife? How much of a role did a possible money scam play into it? Donna Rosato, staff writer for "Money" magazine. If, and it`s still a big if, Mary Winkler was involved in a Nigerian check scam, she would join a long list of people around the world who`ve been duped by similar schemes. Please tell us about how Albania was swept up in a massive pyramid scheme that led to rioting, anarchy and apparently almost caused a Civil War I think back in the `90s?
ROSATO: This was probably the biggest Ponzi scheme that ever existed. But it was back in 1997, after the fall of communism, there were a lot of people who were doing well in the private sector. People had a lot of money they were saving in Albania and con artists targeted them and promised them incredible interest rates to put their money into what they said were bank accounts and promising them 20 and 30 percent interest rates, and purportedly had the backing of the government. At one point, nearly half the population of Albania had put their money into what was essentially a pyramid scheme.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then it all fell apart.
ROSATO: That`s right. As they always eventually do in a ponzi scheme or pyramid scheme, early investors usually get the money out but as other people want money it starts to unravel. And it made a huge dent in the economy and it nearly caused a civil war.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just want to ask financial radio talk show host Dave Ramsey why people get involved in these schemes. I mean it doesn`t make sense. You`re going to get money for nothing? Who believes that?
RAMSEY: Anybody who buys a lotto ticket I guess.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: At least there`s a chance there, though.
RAMSEY: Yeah 1 in 14 gazillion. Seriously though, when you get desperate, when you get behind the eight ball, when the money problems are piling up, that desperation, I know I`ve been there too, it leads to stupidity. And stupidity is out of that sense of desperation a little bit of greed, they fall for get rich schemes on midnight cable, they fall for the ponzi schemes, they fall the Nigerian letter which is out there. Hundreds of millions of dollars every year go into these things and its all people who are trying to find a quick fix to a problem called money problems that has to be fixed slowly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright, well this lady, Patricia, from Tennessee has been very patient. Your question?
PATRICIA: Yes, I was wondering if Mary gets out on bond or bail, where will she go to stay and who will she stay with?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, very good question, because we don`t know that she`s going to get it. Apparently the defense would like it. The prosecutors are opposed. Isn`t that correct, Liz Daulton? Oh Liz? Alright, that`s my understanding. Jim Moret, how does this work? You`re the chief correspondent for "Inside Edition." you have covered a lot of these cases where somebody wants bail, they argue that they`re entitled to it, they`re not a danger, they`re not a flight risk, but prosecutors say no way. This woman fled after this alleged crime.
MORET: Well and the prosecutors will say she is a danger, she is a flight risk. You know you played coming out of commercials three times that FBI statement where he`s on the stand recounting the statement she gave to authorities. And what did he say, he said that she told authorities she shot her husband and then he looks at her and says, "Why?" Indicating he was still alive when she left, and she said, "I`m sorry." Now you know, she may have been involved in a check scam or not, but by her own admission, by the statement the defense attorneys want to keep out, she apparently admits that she shot her husband, and looked at him and answered his question, when he said, "Why?" I don`t necessarily believe that this is a victim and I`ve been wanting to scream when I`m listening to talk about it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
MORET: Clearly. Okay, it`s just unnerving because we don`t have all the facts clearly and you don`t want to prosecute and you don`t want to say she`s guilty when we don`t know all the facts. But we do know her statement and we understand why defense attorneys want to keep that statement out because she basically said "I did it."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah, and you raised two very crucial points here and we do have Liz Daulton with us. The possibility that, when Mary Winkler fled with her three children, even having time to grab socks for the baby, the minister was still alive and also the possibility that seems to have been sort of obliquely suggested by the prosecutors that she may have unplugged the phone in that room. Tell us about that.
DAULTON: Yes, there was a statement in court that was, a photograph that was shown that showed the telephone unplugged. Well the prosecution questioned one of the TBI witnesses on it and was asking about it. When the defense cross-examined the witness there was no reason that was a for sure this is why the telephone was unplugged. So the picture was basically thrown out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what about the possibility that he was alive when she fled?
DAULTON: Well, without a for sure witness in the home, there`s no way to tell for sure the time of death or what time he was shot and what time they left the home, since it was just the wife and the three girls.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright, Donna of Massachusetts, your question?
DONNA: Question, being a minister, you`re usually required to do some type of counseling. And if you are married it`s supposed to be counseling with your spouse through the church or wherever throughout. Could that be admissible in court if they have those records of counseling?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright, are you saying, I just want to clarify your question. Are you saying that he counseled others or he got counseling or she got counseling?
DONNA: Usually when you are a minister you have to do counseling for yourself and if you are married you have to do counseling as a couple.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s interesting, I didn`t know that. Let`s go to our forensic clinical psychologist Dr. Von Ornsteiner. Isn`t that true? I mean I know psychiatrists for example do therapy themselves in the process of becoming psychiatrists, so that they understand themselves, while trying to give advice to others. Is counseling also mandatory for ministers?
VON ORNSTEINER: Well, you know, I`m not an expert on religiosity and every religious sect certainly has their own requirements. But we do know that at least from my experience as a psychologist, her perception seemed to be fairly skewed, it didn`t really seem to matter if they were going to counseling or if he was a supportive husband. He could possibly have been the most supportive husband, but her perception was that he wasn`t. Her perception was that she was in charge of the bookkeeping and she had screwed up and she was ashamed and humiliated by him and he was very critical of her. So her perception was skewed. She seemed to be hypersensitive to criticism and in isolation with no other support services, and no one to talk to. It just seemed to grow. So possibly counseling within a religious content would not have necessarily been beneficial.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright and you know you have touched on something that at least one neighbor has mentioned, again, the relationship between husband and wife, minister and minister`s wife. We do, I believe, have a sound byte from a neighbor talking about an experience he had with the minister. Let`s listen to that. And it may present a slightly different picture of what you`ve heard. Alright, well, let me just paraphrase it because we don`t have it there. But he implied essentially that there was a less gentle side to the minister, and that in this disagreement over a dog that apparently raced into the minister`s yard, he was rather severe and said basically take care of it or I`m going to take care of it.
And I want to ask our forensic clinical psychologist what the significance of that is. Because I think our impression of ministers is that they are men of God and they are gentle and they are forgiving and they are kind and they don`t have temper tantrums. But even Mary Winkler herself said that, and she had this in the beginning of her statement, and hold on, doctor, I`m going to go to our fact angel, Ellie for this. Ellie, tell us, if you can, about the argument that they had or the discussion that they had at the very beginning of the evening where he was apparently ranting allegedly over church issues.
ELLIE: Right. She said that she wasn`t really sure what set him off. He was ranting about things that were going on at church and that she felt that he was criticizing the way she walked, the way she ate, all these sort of things.
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I`ve been a minister`s wife for 36 years and there`s stressors in minister`s families that a lot of people, lay people do not understand. And I think there`s something going on in this family obviously that a lot of people did not know about. And obviously something in Mary`s life that went extremely wrong.
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RICHELLE CAREY, CNN ANCHOR: I`m Richelle Carey. Here is your headline news prime news break. President Bush says North Korea`s missile test will further isolate the communist country from the rest of the world. He says the U.S. will keep working with other nations to convince North Korea to stop its nuclear weapons program.
A federal judge is denying bond for six men accused of trying to plot up Chicago`s Sears Tower. The judge says the charges are just too serious, even if the suspects never could have pulled off the plot.
Rush Limbaugh will not face charges for having a bottle of Viagra that was prescribed to someone else. It turns out his psychiatrist agreed to put his own name on the prescription so Limbaugh could avoid any embarrassing publicity.
And five firefighters suffered minor injuries when a fire broke out overnight on a pier in Seattle. There had been a fireworks show there Tuesday night. Although the first reports of the fire came more than two hours after the fireworks show was over.
That is the news for now. Thanks for watching. Keep it here. I`m Richelle Carey.
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Michael Jackson is one of the most brilliant entertainers in the world. Michael Jackson sold over seven million compilation albums which is unheard of in the entertainment industry.
Look at his heart, look at his music, look at what he`s done for people. Look at the influence.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Pop star Michael Jackson back in the spotlight but not on a concert stage. The music icon is facing a multi-million dollar lawsuit in a California court over business deals. It`s the ongoing saga that keeps getting more and more bizarre. And for the very latest let`s go straight out to my friend Jim Moret, "Inside Edition`s" chief correspondent. Jim, what is the very latest on this lawsuit by former porn producer Marc Schaffel against his former associate Michael Jackson?
MORET: Well first of all I mean there are two things that are undeniable. You listen to Michael Jackson`s music and you say he`s really a terrific writer, great entertainer. The other thing that`s undeniable, he`s had his share of legal problems. And this latest one is a former associate Marc Schaffel who`s claiming that he`s owed something in the amount of $3.8 million from Michael Jackson. You called him a former porn producer but in all fairness he wasn`t doing that when he was working with Michael Jackson.
He was just one of the latest business advisers, this during the time when there were the allegations of molestation in the last year and Marc Schaffel helped Michael Jackson in preparing certain videos to clear his name and so forth, and also worked with him on a relief album that is still yet to come out. But Michael Jackson`s people will say no, in fact, Marc Schaffel was siphoning money from Michael Jackson and he owes Michael Jackson money. So it`s yet another battle in Michael Jackson`s life, this one in a courtroom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yeah, absolutely. The reason I mention that is that there`s a possibility, according to some published reports, that this trial could get ugly. We`re very pleased to have with us tonight Howard King, who is Marc Schaffel`s attorney, who is in court. What do you say to reports that have been published, sir, that this could get to be a slime fest, in other words if Michael Jackson`s people come out and start talking about Marc Schaffel`s past, which has purportedly involved production of some adult materials, that then your team may actually talk about details of intimate conversations between Michael Jackson and Marc Schaffel?
HOWARD KING, MARC SCHAFFEL`S ATTORNEY: Well, it`s already a slime fest and the only defense to Marc Schaffel`s claims so far have been that he`s an adult film producer or as Michael Jackson`s people like to call him, a gay porn producer. So we`ve warned them when they question Mr. Schaffel, if they ask him anything about Mr. Jackson`s knowledge of Mr. Schaffel`s background, they`ll hear intimate details of their conversations.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Like what? Can you give us a taste? I mean is this going to be explosive?
KING: Well, I hope it doesn`t come up because it has absolutely nothing to do with the claims. So it`s only going to come up if they open the door. And if they open the door, if there`s anything left that can be explosive about Michael Jackson, this will be it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright. Well before we go any further, let`s listen to an audio recording played in court, we understand, today, of Michael Jackson purportedly talking with Marc Schaffel.
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Next message, received March 29th at 10:49 p.m.
Hello? Marc, its Michael. Let`s break all time records Marc. I want to make history so badly. I`m speaking from the bottom of my heart, and Marc, please, please, please never have any doubts, I really like you. I love you. I`ve been betrayed so much by people. And I want us to really, really be friends and to be, to conquer the business world together, I really do. I thought about it a lot. But please be my loyal, loyal, loyal friend. I love you and thanks so much. Bye-bye.
(END OF AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let`s go back to Howard King, Marc Schaffel`s attorney. What does that recording prove in your mind? What`s the point of it and others that were played?
KING: Well, listen, Michael Jackson spent 18 months denying he even knew who Marc Schaffel was. So the recording shows he knew who he was, but more importantly it shows Michael Jackson`s character. This is how he sucks people in, he professes love of them, he professes a lifetime of working together, and then he dumps them. He`s done this over and over and over again.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So be forewarned ah? I mean if you go work for Michael Jackson, most of us around the world are aware of his reputation for cutting people off. Brian Oxman, Jackson family attorney. You`ve been listening to all of this, what do you say about the claim that Michael Jackson basically says he loves someone, uses them up and then discards them?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: As I listened to those tapes, they seem very familiar to me because that`s what Michael does when he calls people. But the business about cutting people up or cutting them off, I, frankly, don`t see it. And what I see is that when people have something to produce for Michael Jackson, he`s interested, and when they don`t, he`s no longer interested. It`s, well, as Janet would say, "What have you done for me lately?"
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well you know Brian with most people if they`re owed $3.8 million, it would seem you could say okay, here`s the contract, here are the receipts, here are the canceled checks, but it`s never that way with Michael Jackson. It`s always so convoluted and complicated, different companies and working through people. Why is it always that difficult? You yourself told me a long time ago he`s been through more than 1,000 lawsuits.
OXMAN: For Michael Jackson Inc., there have been literally 1,000 lawsuits and these kinds of lawsuits are not unusual in his life. For businesses, the size of Michael Jackson, they are common. They are ordinary. In this particular case, I have filed papers in this particular lawsuit, which says this is an accounting matter, and it`s going to be based upon the documentation which is produced. And in that particular filing, I complained that there was no documentation being produced by the other side, by the plaintiff. It`s up to this jury to decide it, and they`re going to decide it on the documentation and I think what we`re going to find is its lacking.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Okay, Howard King, you did a depo of Michael Jackson in London last September. What was he like? Because many people wonder about his mental and emotional state?
KING: He`s very articulate. He`s very charming. You know, he`s nicely costumed. His hair is beautiful. You`d think he`d been in front of the cameras his entire life.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But mentally, is he clear, is he lucid, is he sharp?
KING: Well he`s certainly clear, articulate and lucid. He professes no memory of anything, even multimillion-dollar transactions that his business advisers acknowledge occurred.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I understand that he doesn`t have to come to the United States and testify in court in a civil trial. So all we`re going to get is the deposition, is that right?
KING: Well we`re going to get excerpts of his deposition tomorrow and whether or not he should have been here in response to a subpoena will be decided later.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright, well, more to come on this one I`m sure. And we`re going to be back with a very interesting development in just a moment on Michael Jackson. It`s an exclusive that Jim Moret broke, we`ll tell you about it in a second.
Quickly to tonight`s all points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Kevin Lamont Carter in connection with the murder of his girlfriend, 17-year-old Angela Marshall. Carter, 34, 5`10" 220 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. Any information, call the FBI 251-438-3674. Local news next for some of you. We will all be right back. Remember, did a Florida man kill his dad to inherit money? 3:00 to 5:00 eastern, "Court TV", you don`t want to miss it.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are talking Michael Jackson, lots of new developments, as always. Let`s go right out to "Inside Edition`s" Jim Moret who broke a story about Neverland. Tell us about it Jim?
MORET: I`m guessing that you`re talking about the animals. That is basically it and I`ve spoken to Brian Oxman about this, it`s really not a secret. Michael Jackson has been trying to find new homes for his animals and there have been allegations by some animal rights activists that the animals have been neglected. I went out recently, as a matter of fact last week to Tippy Hedron, the actress from the Birds, has an animal sanctuary, she takes care of wild cats.
And she is now housing permanently Michael Jackson`s two tigers that were part of his menagerie, one of them interestingly enough is named Thriller. Her fiancee has been the veterinarian for some 13 years for Michael Jackson`s ranch and they state unequivocally the animals were never neglected. They`ve been trying to find suitable homes for all the animals and we saw them and they looked like they were in good health. Brian Oxman told me himself that at no time, even when Neverland was on a skeleton staff, were those animals neglected. And tomorrow on "Inside Edition" we have a report on that very subject.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well absolutely good news. We`re very happy to hear that those animals are in safe hands, Tippy Hedron, very well-known for her beautiful work with animals. And of course we have so much to say about Michael Jackson, but we`re out of time. We can tell you that he might be moving to Europe, that he plans on a new album, that he`s been spotted in Ireland, that he recently visited Paris. We could go on all night but we don`t have any more time. Michael Jackson, always fascinating.
Tonight, we remember Lance Corporal Justin D. Sims, an American hero. Sims, just 22, killed in Iraq. Sims, from Covington, Kentucky, knew he wanted to be a marine since high school. Sims, a newlywed, leaves behind his grieving widow, his mother, father, and six half-sisters. Justin Sims, an American hero. We would like to thank all of our guests for their insight, and thanks to you at home for helping us track these very important cases. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, have an absolutely wonderful evening.
GLENN BECK, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up next, is he crazy like a fox? North Korea`s nuclear nut job ups the ante in a high stakes show down. That`s a lot of fun and a lot of laughs. I`m Glenn Beck. We`ll see you back in a minute.
CAREY: Hello I`m Richelle Carey with your headline prime news break. Funeral arrangements are pending for Enron founder Kenneth Lay. He died of severe coronary disease in Aspen, Colorado early Tuesday. Lay was scheduled for sentencing October 23rd for fraud and conspiracy and Enron`s collapse.
The White House is defending its refusal to deal directly with North Korea after it test fired seven missiles. The U.N. Security Council had an emergency meeting today. America`s U.N. ambassador says their support for sending a clear signal to North Korea. No word on whether that can mean sanctions.
And concerns over North Korea sent U.S. stocks sliding today. The Dow was down 76 points and oil prices soared to a new record closing above $75 a barrel. Analysts say that could send average U.S. pump prices past $3 a gallon by the weekend. That`s the news for now, I`m Richelle Carey.
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