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American Morning

North Korean Missile Launches; America's Most Influential Churches

Aired July 06, 2006 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Carol Costello, in for Soledad.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Miles O'Brien. Thanks for being with us.

The regime of Kim Jong-Il is vowing to launch more missiles this morning. The U.S. sending a top diplomat to Asia to huddle with allies worried about the North Korea missile threat. But at least on the face of it, there doesn't seem to be many options.

Joining us now from the State Department to talk about this is Nicholas Burns. He is the undersecretary of state for political affairs.

Mr. Burns, good to have you with us this morning.

Pleased to be with you.

NICHOLAS BURNS, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: Pleased to be with you.

O'BRIEN: Let's hear from the president yesterday what he had to say about this right off for starters here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRES. OF THE UNITED STATES: Five of us, Russia, South Korea, Japan, China and the United States, spoke with one voice about the rocket launches, and we will work together to continue to remind the leader of North Korea that there is a better way forward for his people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Now the president says everybody's talking with one voice here. Let's go through this very quickly. China says this -- "China and North Korea are friendly neighbors." Japan says this -- "We will consider every type of sanctions possible."

Let's listen to the Russians briefly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VITALY CHURKIN, RUSSIAN AMB. TO U.N.: I didn't hear the word sanctions, and I, frankly, do not expect that anybody would be proposing any sanctions. (END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: South Korea says this -- "We deem this an unwise act and express our serious concern."

Mr. Burns, it doesn't sound like one voice to me.

BURNS: Oh, it's certainly one voice. If you's played some other clips, you would have seen strong condemnations from each of those countries, each saying the same thing, that the launching of the missiles was provocative and unwise. It's contrary to the agreement all of us signed with the North Koreans last September. You now have the Chinese sending their top diplomat into Pyongyang today. Our top diplomat for the region, Ambassador Chris Hill, is en route to China and to Moscow, and to Seoul and Tokyo. So there's a lot of activity.

And you can play clips from a variety of sources, but the fundamentals are that the whole international community stood up against the North Koreans yesterday, so the North Koreans should be feeling fairly isolated, and they should know that what they've done hasn't won them any friends, and there's going to be an effective response against this.

O'BRIEN: Certainly Kim and his regime have felt isolated in the past and don't consider themselves numbering in a lot of friends anyway. It seems as if -- this is all over the map. And it seems as if Kim might look at this as an opportunity, because the West does not seem to be unified.

BURNS: I don't think so at all. I think that's exactly wrong, with all due respect, because what's meaningful here is what the governments are telling him privately, as well as publicly. And what he's got to be hearing from China and Russia, as well as the rest of us, is this type of behavior is not going to win him any influence. It's certainly not going to put them further forward in what they're hoping to do. In fact, I think you're going to see a very strong reaction from countries around the world, as you have from the Japanese, that countries have to take individual action, as well as collective action.

And the Chinese are going to be important here. The Chinese told the North Koreans not to launch these missiles. The North Koreans went ahead and did it. And so it's going to be incumbent upon China to use their influence to pressure the North Koreans to cease and desist.

O'BRIEN: Are you optimistic the Chinese will do that?

BURNS: Well, the Chinese have given us every indication that they stand by the agreement we have with them in the six-party talks. North Korea shouldn't have nuclear weapons. North Korea shouldn't have a ballistic-missile capability. And we've been in close touch with the Chinese. I can't speak for them. But certainly the Chinese would seem to us to have an identical interest in pursuing a tough and effective strategy against North Korea.

O'BRIEN: The North Koreans would like to have talks, one-on-one bilateral their called, with the U.S.

Let's listen to former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright on this subject.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, SECY. OF STATE: When we left office, we were in the middle of negotiations with the North Koreans. There was a missile moratorium, and the Bush administration paid no attention to North Korea for this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Why not engage in bilateral talks? Pyongyang in Washington? What's the worst thing that can happen?

BURNS: Because that's exactly what the North Koreans are trying to achieve. They're trying to turn this into a contest of wills between North Korea and the United States, and that's not what it's all about.

We have treaty allies in Asia, Japan and South Korea, whose national interests will be directly affected by what the North Koreans do, and China and Russia have an identical interests to the United States in seeing the North Koreans stop this behavior.

So we are much stronger, frankly, from a diplomatic standpoint and much better off if we have a wide group of countries working together and sending the same message to the North Koreans. That is effective multilateral diplomacy, and that's the diplomacy that what we're pursuing now.

O'BRIEN: Has the Bush administration paid enough attention to North Korea, with attention focused on Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran? Has North Korea allowed to come to a boil while the U.S. was focused elsewhere?

BURNS: Well, I can assure you we can walk and chew gum at the same time. We've got a very powerful diplomatic apparatus, a national security apparatus. We have been focused on this problem. We have a lot of highly intelligent people, East Asian experts, focused on it. So the problem is not that somehow our attention was deflected. The problem is the behavior of the North Korean regime. I'd point the finger there, and look, and ask the North Koreans to engage in behavior that is more appropriate for the 21st century. This kind of 19th century behavior that they're exhibiting right now, firing off missiles, trying to get the attention of the rest of the world, is simply not going to work. So we're focused on it. And I think what we've been able to do very successfully over the last few years is to put together this wider international coalition, and that has best promise of success, and so we're going to stick with that.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Burns, do you know what the motivation is for the North Koreans? What do they want? Is it about their economy? And if so, can't the west come up with a way to satisfy that need so they stop launching missiles and threatening the world? BURNS: We gave up a long time ago trying to divine the motivations of this very unpredictable government in Pyongyang.

But look, the agreement we signed with the North Koreans last September 19th, in 2005, would have given the North Koreans a degree of normalcy in terms of economic relations and in political relations with the rest of the world, if they would simply live up to the terms of that agreement, but they haven't done that. They've violated that agreement with the missile launches over the next several days.

So the problem here is not with us. It's not with the United States, or Japan or China. The problem is with North Korea, and that's where we have to direct our attention. I think you'll see this week an effective response from the United Nations Security Council, and we hope very much that you'll see China using its influence to push the North Koreans back a little bit diplomatically, to send them a tough and clear message, so that the North Koreans will understand just how isolated they are in the world.

O'BRIEN: Nicholas Burns, undersecretary of state for political affairs, thank you for your time.

BURNS: Thank you, pleasure.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COSTELLO: Thank you for smoking! A German businessman is planning to launch the first luxury airline for smokers. Nicotine addicts will be able to fly between Tokyo and the German city of Dusseldorf. SMINTAIR, which stands for Smokers International Airways, could be off the ground and smoky, at least on the inside, next summer.

Coming up, feeling sluggish? can't sleep and battling weight problems?

O'BRIEN: Yes, geez! You're talking to me, sister.

COSTELLO: You could have a thyroid condition, Miles.

O'BRIEN: I have an excuse -- excellent!

COSTELLO: Maybe. We'll look at the symptoms in our series for people in their 30s, 40s and 50s.

O'BRIEN: Also, hip-hop and rock instead of hymns, just one reason why this church is one of the most influential in America. We'll show you how it's changing the face of religion.

COSTELLO: And hold onto your seats. We're just about an hour away from the prime time Emmy nominations. We'll have them for you live. Will "The Office" make the cut?

O'BRIEN: Oh, I hope so. That's a good show.

COSTELLO: It is the smartest show on television, according to the critics.

O'BRIEN: Well, it's the second -- we're the first.

COSTELLO: Oh, yes.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: A Christian Web site is giving its blessing to America's most influential churches. Their annual list of the top 50 comes out today.

CNN's faith and values correspondent Delia Gallagher joins us now with part of that list.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol.

COSTELLO: It's a powerful list.

GALLAGHER: Yes, it sure is. It's a survey of 2,000 non-Catholic pastors, naming who they think are some of the most influential preachers among their peers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GALLAGHER (voice-over): It's got hip-hop, and it's got the ultimate hip pastor.

PAUL MCMANUS, MOSAIC CHURCH: Just start talking to god. I know, be weird, be crazy. You don't have to talk to him out loud.

GALLAGHER: Welcome to Mosaic Church. Meet Erwin McManus, a Salvadoran immigrant, whose Los Angeles-based congregation is diverse and growing. In running shoes, jeans and a sports jersey, his approach is casual, his message simple -- sports is a metaphor for life, and godliness.

MCMANUS: Paul says you need to run the race as if you're going to win the prize.

GALLAGHER: No solemn hymns here. Instead, Mosaic uses rock 'n' roll, DVDs, books and a state-of-the-art Web site to reach its audience. Unlike the evangelical giants of the past century...

REV. BILLY GRAHAM: Pick up your cross!

GALLAGHER: This new breed of pastor speaks in a language most traditionalists wouldn't understand.

Here, he talks about St. Paul.

MCMANUS: Paul, what are you smoking? You know, Paul, man, you're writing a chick flick.

GALLAGHER: His followers get it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pastor Erwin's extremely personable, and he keeps it real.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like he can just relate to anyone.

GALLAGHER: He brings in about 3,000 people every Sunday, and he doesn't even have a church building. Mosaic rents auditoriums for services and has no pulpit, but is one of the most influential churches in the United States. So says the church report, a Christian Web site that polled 2,000 Christian pastors.

(on camera): The report says that tens of thousands of Americans flock to these churches in the past year, and that number is growing. It's a sign that they're finding something there that they're not getting from traditional denominations.

(voice-over): No. 1 on the list, the enormous Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois. Nearly 20,000 come to services on weekends. Pastor Bill Heible says Willow Creek is open to everyone.

PASTOR HILL HYBELS, WILLOW CREEK COMMUNITY CHURCH: It doesn't matter what background you came out of, even if you have no spiritual background whatsoever.

GALLAGHER: Some say this feel-good approach is not what true Christianity is all about.

DAVID WELLS, GORDON-CONWELL THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: What is being advocated is more of spirituality, which is in opposition to, or at least doesn't require religion. That is to say, doctrine to be believed, ethics to be followed, and a corporate involvement that would be expected.

GALLAGHER: Pastor McManus says a person can be good and still question traditional beliefs, that religion is more about questions than answers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GALLAGHER: And the complete list of the 50 most influential churches is out today on The Church Report. That's www.thechurchreport.com.

COSTELLO: That really surprised me, because I would have thought maybe Joel Ostein's church would have been tops on the list.

GALLAGHER: Well, he is on the list. In fact, there are quite a number of what we call those megachurches on the list. You remember Rick Warren, "The Purpose-Driven Life." Of course he's on the list, because they just have such huge numbers that come to their churches. I mean, we're talking about 20,000 on an average Sunday.

COSTELLO: Yes, but doesn't that beg the question that more traditional churches should maybe adopt some of the less traditional ways? GALLAGHER: Well, it's interesting that some of the pastors, Pastor Bill Hybels, that you saw from Willow Creek, actually runs some classes for pastors to show them how to increase their congregation.

COSTELLO: And talk to people at their level.

Thank you very much, Delia Gallagher.

O'BRIEN: It's a long way from the Latin I remember when I was young, I'll tell you that.

COSTELLO: All right.

O'BRIEN: Hey, it's Thursday, folks. You know what that means, right? Miles-cam day. Yes, it's Miles-cam day! I know you're excited.

COSTELLO: You know, I am, I am.

O'BRIEN: This is a special space shuttle docking version today. The space shuttle, as a matter of fact, right around this time will be in the midst of all of that. The docking about 10:43 Eastern, so we invite you to send your e-mails now. Space questions would be good. CNN.com/pipeline is the place to see it all unfold. The questions to be sent to AM@CNN.com, and you don't have to have space questions. If you've got another question, you know, like about Latin Mass, I'll recite some of that for you if you'd like, if I can remember. Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus, yes. That's about all i've got this morning.

All right Andy Serwer is here "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: I am, Miles.

We're going to be talking about Ken Lay. What will his legacy be? How will history judge him? Plus, does his family have any money? And will the feds seek to get it?

O'BRIEN: Thank you, Andy.

Also ahead in the program, people hooked on gambling, and they don't even have to set foot in a casino. We will talk to a pair of recovering online gambling addicts forced to take desperate measures to feed their addictions, one even stealing from family.

The stories are ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The explosion of online gambling has raised the stakes for some who can least afford it. Web wagering has gone beyond traditional bets to include gambling on things like how many hurricanes will form and how strong will they be? As AMERICAN MORNING's Dan Lothian tells us, people can get buried under a mountain of debt in the comfort of their own homes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A casino as close as your fridge, and for a woman we'll call Mary, the convenience irresistible.

MARY, ONLINE GAMBLING ADDICT: I moved a casino right into my living room. There was, you know, bells, whistles, and everything else, without anybody knowing or caring, without me getting in the car and traveling.

LOTHIAN: It also entices a man we'll call Dave.

DAVE, ONLINE GAMBLING ADDICT: Sometimes when I said I'm only going to play for an hour, and then next thing, you know, it will be ten hours later and I was still at the computer.

LOTHIAN: Mary and Dave asked us to conceal their identities, as they struggle to recover from the pain and debt of their online gambling addictions.

(on camera): Both started betting in their teens. It was innocent enough at first. Sometimes they would win money. Then, a few years ago, they were introduced to online gambling. It was exciting, easy, anonymous. It would also become addictive.

(voice-over): Dave got two credit cards to keep him in the game. His favorite, poker.

DAVE: I was just dumping money left and right, left and right, and I'm thinking, probably in a matter of three to -- three months, I maxed out both those credit cards; $16,000, $17,000 in a matter of months.

LOTHIAN: Alone at her computer, Mary played poker and other games, too, losing way more than she was winning. After falling more than $200,000 into debt, she became desperate.

MARY: Helping my mother take care of her bank account should not have included me taking money out of it.

LOTHIAN: It got worse.

MARY: After my father died, my mother had signed their summer cottage over to me. And I just immediately took out a mortgage to get myself out of debt.

LOTHIAN: Unable to stop playing these games on their own, Mary and Dave are now members of Gamblers Anonymous, trying to follow a 12- step program similar to A.A. Dot Duda heads a gambling prevention and recovery center at a Massachusetts hospital. She's recently seen the number of online addiction cases go up.

DOT DUDA, MOUNT AUBURN HOSPITAL: I think we attack all gambling pretty much the same, but online, we're a lot more aggressive, because there is that -- it's easy access. And we know that they can relapse very quickly. LOTHIAN: While experts work to change a gambler's behavior and emotional state, they concede there is no magic bullet.

KEITH WHYTE, NATL COUNCIL ON PROBLEM GAMBLING: Frankly, you know, for people even in recovery, you're always almost one click away from getting back gambling.

LOTHIAN: An industry representative says reputable online casinos try to help players apply the brakes.

JOE KELLY, CATANIA CONSULTING GROUP: If the gambler does something that is unusual -- that is, uses different credit cards to start maxing out credit limits -- that person will probably be contacted by the online operators.

LOTHIAN: Dave and Mary say it was friends and family who encouraged them to get help. Despite several false starts, both are now in recovery.

DAVE: You know, there's a cliche that it's one day at a time. It really is.

LOTHIAN: Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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O'BRIEN: Top stories are coming up after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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