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Nancy Grace
Sex Offender Suspected in Death of Utah Teen; Michael Jackson Facing Civil Lawsuit
Aired July 06, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight: the body of a missing 16- year-old girl found near a Utah canyon. Now police are questioning a registered sex offender they believe was the last person to see her alive.
This 38-year-old suspect says the two did go hiking together, but claims he doesn`t know what happened after he downed some pills and drank some booze -- that because he had memory loss.
Also, tonight: As pop icon Michael Jackson tries to find a new home in Europe, he`s facing a civil lawsuit in California. A former porn producer and business associate of Jackson`s claims he is owed millions from prior business deals.
And, tonight, we`re taking your calls.
But first tonight to Utah and the case of a 16-year-old girl found dead in the hills.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They contacted a male individual inside of the house that was the last person that she supposedly saw. He -- when he answered the door, detectives noticed that he had a large amount of scratches on his body, which made them suspicious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace tonight.
A registered sex offender named a suspect in the death of a 16-year- old Utah girl. What exactly happened to Samantha Mikesell? And what role did pills play?
Let`s go straight out to Pat Reavy, reporter for "The Deseret Morning News."
Pat, set the stage for us. What exactly do we know about what happened?
PAT REAVY, REPORTER, "THE DESERET MORNING NEWS": Well, what we know is that the girl was reported missing Sunday night. This is after the suspect, Mr. White, apparently picked her up from her work. She was working in a local restaurant.
They were going up into the canyon, the foothills above Bountiful, which is just outside Salt Lake City. At that point, apparently, she did call her mother that night around 8:00 just to say, hey, I got off work early, and I`m -- I`m going out. But, then, by 10:30, when she hadn`t returned home, that`s when the parents called police.
They began searching for her. It turned into a missing-person/runaway child case. And from there, it just kind of -- the search was on for a couple of days, until Tuesday, when the suspect, Mr. White, was found -- just happened to be found at 3:00 in the morning by an officer who was up checking the area. He didn`t have a shirt on. He was kind of walking around in a daze, scratches, numerous scratches all over his body.
They took him to the hospital to get checked out. Now, in the meantime, that officer didn`t realize, I guess, what was going on with the missing child. In the meantime, the other officers investigating that case, they had his name on the radar screen already.
So, they began looking into him. When he was released from the hospital, police went over. They talked to him. That`s when they realized, hey, something`s not right. His answers were evasive. He just seemed loopy to the officers. He didn`t seem to know quite I guess where he was. And he wasn`t giving them straight answers.
It was at that point they interviewed him. He confessed: Yes, I was with her. I was with Samantha. We were up in the canyons.
He tried to take them to where she was. It was too dark. He was too disoriented. That was Wednesday night. So, they checked him back into the hospital.
The next morning, which was this morning, search teams went back out. And, within an hour, a dog found Samantha`s body. It was lying there with pills and empty -- empty bottles of pills that were prescribed to Mr. White, also empty bottles of alcohol. Apparently, from what it looks like, is, they were in the canyons, just taking prescription medications mixed with alcohol.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Pat?
REAVY: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You have provided a very in-depth and very good description of what we know thus far.
We are very happy to have with us tonight the police chief of the Bountiful Police Department, Chief Paul Rapp.
I know you are very busy. Thank you so much for joining us, sir.
First of all, as I`m sure you share this sentiment, our hearts here at NANCY GRACE show go out to the family of this girl. It`s such a travesty and such a tragedy.
But tell us about the possible relationship between this 38-year-old man, who is a registered sex offender, and this 16-year-old girl. How did they know each other? And what do you think happened with the pills and the booze? And there`s even talk of a suicide pact.
PAUL RAPP, BOUNTIFUL, UTAH, POLICE CHIEF: Very true.
Mr. White has a 16-year-old son, and it was through his 16-year-old son that he met Samantha. And the information we had initially led us to several people who had seen her last. With the information Mr. White has given us, we have corroborated that at the scene where the body was found.
As mentioned by Pat, we have found alcohol containers, as well as prescription medications in Mr. White`s name.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I guess the big question is, how do you think the girl died? Was she assaulted? Did she take the pills and the booze? Did she overdose? And what charges could be filed against this man who you have in custody, but you have not charged with anything yet; correct?
RAPP: That is correct.
He is currently at Lakeview Hospital in Bountiful. The hospital has not released him to our custody because of his blood levels, due to his overdose on the prescription medications.
This afternoon, state medical examiner Dr. Grey did do an autopsy. The initial findings from that autopsy did not produce a cause of death. There is no blunt-force trauma. And, so, we will be waiting for the toxicology reports from the medical examiner`s office. And that could take days or weeks to find out just what was in her blood system and what took her life.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Criminal profiler pat brown, how crucial, then, is the toxicology report? And can it say for sure did somebody die of an overdose or not?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Oh, sure, Jane, I think they`re going to be able to find out exactly what she did die of.
But what`s really interesting is that the -- the whole story that this particular man has come up with, I think it`s funny that he`s found two days later and he`s still got so much medication in his system, and he`s so loopy.
I think he`s using the -- planning to use the Mark Hacking defense, which is: I`m kind of crazy and I did too much drugs. I don`t know what happened.
He knew what happened. He took the girl up there. He had plans for her. He`s a registered sex offender. He knew what he wanted to do with her. I`m sure he did attempt or did do something with her. How she died, we don`t know yet. But he`s responsible. He probably knows he`s responsible. And then he`s got to start on the old defense, because he`s got scratches all over him, which means what?
What, he was unconscious when she attacked him and scratched him up? I don`t think so.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me go back...
BROWN: So, he`s got to come up with a reason to, you know...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.
Let me go back to the chief and ask him about those scratches, because those would seem to be very incriminating. But we have also heard reports that those scratches are just from him walking through the brush.
RAPP: And to make certain, we did take evidence at the time of his interview with fingernail samples and scrapings, to be able to differentiate anything that might have happened in nature with something that might have happened in a physical altercation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, by the way, again, this gentleman, a registered sex offender, we have made numerous attempts to reach his attorneys, his former attorneys. And they have not called us back to this point.
And, once again, we want to stress, he hasn`t been charged with anything at this point.
Let`s listen to authorities describe a little bit about what he said upon apprehension.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They contacted a male individual inside of the house that was the last person that she supposedly saw. He -- when he answered the door, detectives noticed that he had a large amount of scratches on his body, which made them suspicious.
They questioned him. His statement was that he doesn`t remember how he got the scratches. He remembers being with the girl, but doesn`t remember how he got the scratches.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.
You have all this detail coming in, but we`re trying to piece it together.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Scratch marks he doesn`t remember how he have -- how it happened. He took an antidepressant. But he`s also reportedly on lithium...
MARSHALL: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... at, at least some point.
So, what does this tell you?
MARSHALL: Well, it`s a complicated picture.
I mean, first of all, I think it`s important to understand that amnesia is the most commonly malingered illness, or faked illness following a crime, OK?
But the fact that he was on imipramine, which was an antidepressant, and lithium, which is a mood stabilizer, suggests that he could be bipolar, which could account for some of the disorientation, if he took too much medication.
But it`s more likely that because imipramine is an antidepressant that`s also used for panic attacks, it has a heavily sedating effect. So, when you mix it with alcohol, it can really kind of make you feel loopy and out of it. So, it could have been, in a sense, the mentally ill man`s date rape drug, OK, so that, if he administered it to her and she was overly sedated, that he could have had his way with her.
The other possibility, as you know, pedophiles always think that what is in their mind is in the child`s mind. So, if he was suicidal, he could have imagined that she was as well, or that it was some type of a murder- suicide pact, which is rare. It only happens between intimates.
But he perhaps felt that there was a true relationship that was about to be betrayed and murdered her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And complicating all this, apparently, her body was dragged some, what, 60 feet?
MARSHALL: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Chief, can you tell us about that?
MARSHALL: Right.
RAPP: It`s true.
The body was moved nearly 70 feet from the point of death. And we have potential charges with Mr. White for desecration of a body, as well as the controlled substance that he provided for her, based on his own admission, and potential other charges, based on the findings of the medical examiner report.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, is it correct to assume that you`re waiting for the report to come in, all the reports, autopsy, toxicology, analyze them, and then you`re going to decide, OK, here`s what we`re going to charge him with?
RAPP: At the point that the hospital releases him to our custody, we intend to file initial charges with what we have right now. We will file potentially other charges when the medical examiner`s report comes in, depending on those findings.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is such a horror for this family. Again, our hearts go out to them.
It`s also a cautionary tale about the dangers of a young girl, 16 years old, being involved with somebody more than twice her age.
Let`s go back out to Pat Reavy, reporter for "The Deseret Morning News."
What do we know about their relationship? Apparently, the parents knew enough to give his name on a list of people that might be with her. And there are some indications they may have had some kind of long-term thing going on.
REAVY: I don`t know how long-term it was. I think the parents, they knew his name. They knew enough to -- to give that name to police, which get the -- got the ball rolling.
However, from what I understand, they did not know he was a registered sex offender. And the way they met was through his own 16-year-old son. And then, once he met her, apparently, they continued communicating through the Internet and through e-mail.
Stacey Honowitz, prosecutor, what runs through you when you hear that the family did not know, and certainly not to blame them, but just didn`t have the information that he was a registered sex offender?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Well, Jane, this is the terrible thing that`s going on now with the Internet and chat rooms and being able to converse with someone who`s twice your age who is a registered sex offender, because, unfortunately, it`s not regulated, the business of being on the Internet.
And, so, we can`t screen people. We can`t ask them, are you a registered sex offender? If you are, don`t go on.
Of course, that`s never going to happen. So, in this case, I think parents, especially these parents, probably had no idea that she was communicating with this person. Certainly, they would not have let her go off with them. And she called her mother and didn`t tell her mother, by the way, I`m going out with this 38-year-old guy.
So, I think, if anything, this story lends itself to all those other stories we hear that parents need to be on top of their kids, need to be on top of them when they`re on the computer, and figure out what they`re doing and who they`re doing it with.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, I want to read to you what his original charge 10 years ago, lewdness with a child, involved, according to authorities. He put holes in the wall between his apartment and the adjoining apartment, so he could watch minor girls in their bedroom.
And he also admitted going into an apartment where minor girls lived and stealing their underwear. What does that tell you about this man?
MARSHALL: Well, what that tells me is that these pedophile sex offenders, child molesters, they don`t usually just have one pattern of offending. They usually have what we call multiple perversions.
So, voyeurism is one perversion, you know, putting the holes in the wall and watching the girls. Frotteurism, taking an item, rubbing up against a victim unwillingly, is another perversion. Pedophilia is a perversion.
But I think what`s really interesting, in terms of this particular case, is, sexual sadism is considered a perversion as well. And it makes me wonder if he was graduating from voyeurism to sexual sadism, and if perhaps there was something about giving her a drug, seeing her helpless and frightened, that make him -- made him sexually excited, and so that this was a part of a -- sort of a growing pattern of perverse activity with him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go back to the chief and try to get some clarity on that, because, at one end of the spectrum, we`re hearing about possible sexual perversion. And, at the other end of the spectrum, we`re hearing about a possible -- maybe they were up there hiking and that she might have taken pills and booze and overdosed, and it could have been even an accident, possibly, or not?
RAPP: Not likely to be an accident. I don`t see how that could be, given the levels of toxicity that would be necessary to take her life. Body weights are very different between Samantha and Mr. White.
And, as far as an Internet connection, we have not established that. But we did take into police custody last evening, in a search of Mr. White`s residence, a computer system. And we will be looking for that connection, if it exists.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, just to clarify one more time, the highest possible charge he could face is homicide?
RAPP: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And you are going to make that determination in the coming hours and days.
We will be back with more information in just a moment.
To tonight`s "Case Alert" -- two prisoners able to escape from an Oklahoma detention center have been spotted in Kansas and Arkansas; 32- year-old Benjamin Beck and 24-year-old Truman Gross were last seen at a minimum security prison Sunday night.
Since then, the escaped convicts stole a rifle, cash, and cars from several innocent bystanders, including a couple robbed at gunpoint in Bella Vista, Arkansas. Beck and Gross are considered armed and dangerous. Anyone with information on these suspects, call the fugitive apprehension unit at 405-425-2570.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He looked very skittish, very -- very paranoid. And he had scratches on his face, made me nervous. And I -- I pick up on those things very -- very easily, been around quite a few creeps myself before. And when they`re acting like that, it`s time to usually skedaddle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace.
A 16-year-old teenage girl goes missing over the weekend in the hills above Bountiful, Utah. Today, her body is discovered. And now a registered sex offender is under the microscope.
Let`s go straight out to defense attorney Paul Batista.
You have been listening to all of this. What kind of defense, and how would you defend this man, given the scratch marks, the history of lewd conduct, etcetera?
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I have never felt so outnumbered and outmanned and outwomanned in my life.
But let`s -- let`s -- let`s be real here. We have a autopsy report that does not yet indicate a homicide. We have a seriously troubled man who should not have been with a 16-year-old girl. We do not yet have charges.
He has apparently been talking to the police, and, indeed, led her to the location of the body. And we have a very preliminary, very confused, very tragic situation that does not necessarily mean that Mr. White murdered this young child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, it could all be a big accident?
BATISTA: I`m not suggesting an accident. Surely, the use of the Internet is a terrible problem.
Sixteen-year-old girls should not be communicating with 38-year-old men on the Internet. They should not be getting together. In this society, Jane, they do. And...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, on top of that -- and I want to jump back to the police chief for a second, my understanding is -- and correct me if I`m wrong -- that she was found only in a bra and jeans. In other words, she wasn`t fully clothed. So, what does that tell you? Is there a possibility of sexual assault?
RAPP: In our collection of evidence, we have certainly accounted for that. Tests being run through the medical examiner`s office will be run for sexual assault situations as well.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
And criminal profiler Pat Brown, how do you determine in a situation like this that`s tragic and graphic whether it`s consensual or rape?
BROWN: Well, that is a bit difficult, because, theoretically, something supposedly consensual between that younger girl and this older man would have -- could have happened, except that he already gave her something to influence her behavior.
But let`s assume she just drank something and she did want to indeed do something. It`s true that it`s going to be hard to prove that not consensual. Now, they may find that there`s other things that are more violent to her body. And that, of course, would prove that it wasn`t consensual.
I want to mention one thing, Jane, about the Peeping Tomism. This is something people just really don`t realize, that, when you look at Peeping Toms -- they`re all -- they`re pre-rapists. That`s their beginning behaviors, where they`re going into somebody else`s territory, and they start moving in further and further on them.
We have to take Peeping Toms extremely seriously, because they do move on to rape and serial homicide.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are absolutely right. And just wait until you hear what a psychiatrist or psychologist said in diagnosing this man shortly after his conviction a decade ago. It`s absolutely astounding.
Very quick question from Barbi in Pennsylvania.
CALLER: Can you tell me if the son would be accountable for maybe assessment to this?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Say again?
CALLER: Would the son be accountable for maybe the -- being an assessment to this crime?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go right to the source.
Chief, could the teenage son, who may have had a role in introducing these two, have any kind of culpability at all?
RAPP: No.
I think what she`s referring to is as an accessory to the crime. And the information that we have from the victim`s family is that they met through the son in a social setting.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, he`s in the clear. And, certainly, we want to stress once again, nobody has been charged in this case.
We have more for you on it.
To tonight`s "Case Alert" -- the older brother of a 2-year-old missing Texas boy tells police his sibling fell in a sinkhole at a park. Elian Majano has been missing since June 21 in Irving, Texas. At the time, Majano and his 4-year-old brother were playing in the park unsupervised. The information came to light during a custody hearing between the boys` parents and child protective services. The older child remains in temporary foster care -- still no sign of missing 2-year-old Elian Majano.
Also tonight, the release of more than 900 pages of documents giving insights into the minds of the Columbine high school shooters. Hate-filled diary entries, maps, and notes reveal what Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were doing and thinking just before the 1999 massacre. One entry even states, at the time, Klebold and Harris pulled their guns, killing 12 students and a teacher, before taking their own lives.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There looked like about a dozen, actually, a good dozen or more scratches. I didn`t piece two and two together until everything started, you know, kind of falling into place. And I was like, oh, wait a minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace tonight.
What happened to 16-year-old Samantha Mikesell, whose body was found in the Utah hills this morning? A registered sex offender who says he went hiking with the teen is now a suspect in the case.
I want to go straight out to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, read you what I consider a very disturbing letter that dates back a decade. After he had a lewdness-with-a-child conviction, he was ordered to undergo psychotherapy.
And the doctor, after a couple of months, said -- quote -- "In my professional judgment, he has been able to overcome the sexual deviation tendencies." It goes on, this letter, to say, "He`s gotten a better relationship with his wife, improvement in his sexual adjustment, better impulse control, and resolving significant past trauma, including having been sexually abused himself." He concludes further, "Acting out is unlikely."
What would you make of a letter written like that just a few months after he started seeing this guy?
MARSHALL: Well, it`s irresponsible, first of all, because pedophilia, it`s really a fixed sexual orientation, and it`s also a compulsion.
And pedophiles, even if they have a meager conscience about their acts, they suffer from the disorder their entire lives. And I really think that what -- what the doctor was probably referring to, he probably what was called -- what was called a regressed pedophile, meaning that he prefers sexual contact with a wife or a partner. He can have children, all of that. But, under times of stress, he reverts back to sexual activity with children.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But -- but can we lock up everybody who`s a Peeping Tom? I mean, we`re in a quandary here.
MARSHALL: No, but -- no, but -- but what you can do is limit their access to children, because one of the primary factors in recidivism is access to children.
And the Internet gives access to children, schools. There`s all kinds of ways these guys have access. And I think that this -- this psychiatrist or shrink just gave him a walk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Pop star Michael Jackson fighting allegations by a former business associate who says the singer owes him millions. A civil lawsuit under way in Santa Monica, California featuring Michael Jackson on voice mail. That`s like a new instrument. Fascinating clips that we have obtained and will play for you for the very latest on all of this we are delighted to have in studio my dear friend and colleague Diane Dimond, not only an investigative reporter but author of the fabulous Jackson book, "Be Careful Who You Love," which is sitting right on my dining room table. Diane, what is the very latest?
DIANE DIMOND, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: You don`t even need to read that book because you were there with me for most of it. The very latest is this, Fred Schaffel is suing Michael Jackson for $3.8 million. Part of his claim is that he took $300,000 from Michael Jackson, paid off somebody in Brazil for something. We don`t know what. The judge will not let us know what that was. That of course demonstrable because it lets everybody know, see, Michael trusted me with all this money, and I put out a lot of money and he owes me 3.8. Well, today in court we realize now he doesn`t have receipts for all of this. And his 3.8 request has now gone down to 1.6 million. He cannot come up with receipts for that 300,000 and others. He had a receipt, showed it to the judge. She rejected it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what a shock. I mean, this is a guy who asked for money in paper bags and says money is French fries and super size it if he wants a lot of money. No wonder there`s no receipts.
DIMOND: Well that`s what Michael Jackson did in calling it French fries and whatnot. But this fascinates me because during the criminal trial Frederick Marc Schaffel of course was one of the unindicted co- conspirators. And I was told by many sources close to Mr. Schaffel and close to the investigation that Mr. Schaffel was almost anal in keeping receipts. He would keep a receipt for $1.29 from the 7-Eleven for some aspirin and then he would put in for it. So now that he suddenly doesn`t have any receipts I`ve got to think, hmm.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very curious. And luckily, we have Marc Schaffel`s attorney with us tonight, Howard King. We are delighted to have you back, sir. Well, you`ve been hearing Diane Dimond. We`re all wondering how did $3.8 million become just over $1 million? Why the switch? And was it mid- stream or did we just forget to ask?
HOWARD KING, MARC SCHAFFEL`S ATTORNEY: No one asked. I mean, this was based on a ruling made before the case even went to trial.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah but I mean how can you be sitting there in court day after day discussing how this man`s owed $3.8 million and nobody figured out that it`s really just over $1 million or $1 1/2 million? That to me is the absolute metaphor of the craziness of Michael Jackson`s life. That even in the trial nobody can figure out -- and this happened in the criminal trial. We couldn`t figure out a lot of times what was going on.
KING: Listen, I made an opening statement over a week ago where I asked for a million six. I didn`t add it up, and nobody else did. I mean, the fact of the matter is he`s owed a lot more money. Diane`s right. There are no receipts for all these cash transactions, and in fact I asked Marc Schaffel on the witness stand today what do you think about not getting receipts? And he goes, well, I`m not going to give Michael Jackson money anymore without getting a receipt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well that`s a good thing. Be forewarned, anybody, if you do business with Michael Jackson get a receipt. Now, we have these fascinating tapes we want to play for you. They really are incredible. It`s incredible that Michael Jackson would leave these kind of voice mails. Purportedly it is him. Let`s listen to a conversation involving Marlon Brando, the late great actor.
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
MICHAEL JACKSON: Marc, we must... Marlon Brando has been pushing. And he is a wonderful man. He`s a God. We have to get this done. We want it done before Christmas. Put together a business plan. The whole thing is fine for TV. He just wants to make a big deal. He wants a lot of money and we would own it together... We`ll form our own company. Start putting that together so when we see him, when I see him.. I can give him a presentation that we have been busy working. He really wants it. I mean, I think that`s he`s not going to be living too much longer, that`s what it is I think. Please Marc, get this done. Let`s get the jive thing done. I need that money for the house. Ah, let`s move mountains. The album is going to be turned in soon. He`s going crazy. So things are looking good. I hope to talk to you soon. I`ll see you today at the studio at 3:30. I love you very much. Thank you, bye.
(END OF AUDIOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, Diane Dimond, you raise a point. We were listening to this. That he sounds very alert, very cogent. There`s been so much talk about possible drug problems in his past, which he of course has denied aside from the treatment he went through in the `90s.
DIMOND: Right, the pain pills.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But he sounds good there. He did a deposition in London which was played in court today. You have actually seen it apparently. He apparently looks sharp there too.
DIMOND: I have seen portions of it. And first of all, I was taken with his voice is kind of deep down here like this. Instead of the wispy little voice. There are always two and three sides to Michael Jackson, the man who`s in charge, I`ll see you at the studio at 3:30, the man who talks like this, and the man who talks like this. And I think it depends on his situation. If he`s in trouble he suddenly becomes the wispy wafey kid who just doesn`t really understand what`s going on around him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But this is sort of vindication for everybody who said he`s totally out of it, he was carried into court. Because he didn`t speak a lot as you know, we were standing there outside court, it was hard to tell. He would just shuffle by. And everybody was reading whatever they wanted into it, and now it seems that perhaps he`s a lot more together than we thought.
DIMOND: Well, remember, these tapes were taken, Mr. King could probably tell you better, in 2003 and 2002 maybe. These two had a relationship for about three years, these two men, and they put together charity singles that sort of didn`t go anywhere. And they had all these projects together. So I don`t really know when those tapes were.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. And Brian Oxman, the deposition was apparently last September in London. So that is more recent. Do you think that this trial in some odd way is painting Michael Jackson in a better light than he was painted in the criminal trial, even though he was acquitted in the criminal trial?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: I think we see a real Michael Jackson when we watch the deposition. We see what kind of a man he is. And it`s the kind of a man that I know him to be. I like him. I`ve always liked him. And I`ve always thought that he was aware of his business dealings. Michael`s only problem is it`s such a commotion that goes on around him that there really isn`t anybody who can handle this kind of a commotion. And he has people who he hires to do this and oftentimes they`re simply not capable and as a result you find these kinds of lawsuits.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright. Howard King, Marc Schaffel`s attorney, I understand your client was on the stand. A lot happening in court. He was on the stand, and you had said -- everybody was talking last night after you said on this show, the NANCY GRACE show, that if they get ugly, meaning the Jackson camp, and start talking about Marc Schaffel`s past as a gay porn producer, that you`re going to get ugly and start saying explosive things, revealing details about Michael Jackson`s past. Everybody wanted to know what details? Can you give us a hint? Is it of a sexual nature? Is it about the Brazil issue?
KING: They did not ask Marc Schaffel one question about his background today.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically, you didn`t go there either.
KING: I did not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I bet you, Diane Dimond is going to go there. Diane, what do you think Marc Schaffel knows about Michael Jackson?
DIMOND: Well, I`ll tell you, there are no saints in this story. I did a three-part series on Marc Schaffel for another network I work for, and he`s left a long string of people who complain about him. Many called him a con man. Then you have Michael Jackson on the other side who has never met a lawsuit he didn`t like or didn`t get involved in. It just seems to me these two were such intimates that they both probably know sexual intimacies about each other. Not that there was any relationship between them. But what their desires were, what their hopes were, what they did when they kicked back at night and had a glass of Jesus juice. You know, I think both of these guys could take each other down. But this was really supposed to be an accounting case. You owe me X numbers of dollars.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course we`re all wondering is there still, Brian Oxman, Jackson family attorney, another secret to be revealed? This is kind of like the search for the holy grail. We all keep wondering, because he is such an enigma, what is the real Michael Jackson? And we wonder, does Marc Schaffel have the answer to that?
OXMAN: There is a secret in this case, and that secret is no ticky, no money. Marc Schaffel does not have the documentation to establish this kind of case, and that`s becoming apparent in the courtroom.
RICHELLE CAREY, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. I`m Richelle Carey with your headline prime news break. President Bush says diplomacy is the key to settling North Korea`s nuclear worries. The U.N. is still debating the situation. North Korea defends this week`s missile firings and vows further launches.
New York City police say they`ve arrested a man who terrorized subway riders this morning. They say he was wielding two battery-powered saws and lashing out at people. One man was critically hurt.
We may soon be blaming global warming for another thing an increasing number of western wildfires. Researchers say that wildfires increased suddenly in the 1980s and seasons also became longer. You can find the study in today`s online edition of the journal "Science."
And happy birthday, Mr. President. George W. Bush is 60 today. White House spokesman Tony Snow says it`s not a big deal for his boss, it`s just one day after being 59. That is the news for now. Thanks for watching. Keep it here. I`m Richelle Carey.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace. Of course we`re talking Michael Jackson, who is back in the spotlight over, what else, a lawsuit filed by a former business associate who says the kooky king of pop owes him almost 4 million, now it`s down to about 1 1/2 million in change and he is set to collect, but, says team Jackson, not so fast, they`ve countersued claiming businessman Marc Schaffel owes Jackson money. And throughout it all some fascinating clips of Jackson purportedly calling Schaffel desperate for money, which he calls French fries, and when he wants a lot of it he says super size me.
Now, over the commercial break Diane and I have been cooking up some really tough questions for you, Marc Schaffel`s attorney, Howard King. And this is the crux of the matter. You had said purportedly, correct me if I`m wrong, that Schaffel put out $300,000 for a mystery man, Mr. X, originally in Brazil, now we hear it may be Argentina, but then testifying today Schaffel supposedly said on the stand Michael Jackson gave me $2 million for record expenses as well as the $300,000 that I can`t talk about what it`s for.
KING: That`s incorrect. He -- Marc Schaffel pulled that $300,000 out of an account he had in Europe, and --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Isn`t there a record of that, Mr. King?
KING: Absolutely. It was exhibit 401 at trial today.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that wasn`t good enough for the judge?
KING: Sure, it was. I don`t know what Diane was talking about. That was admitted into evidence right after lunch.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going right off the wire copy that says, quote, this is quoting Schaffel, "He gave me the $2 million for the record and expenses and the situation I can`t talk about," he said, referring to the $300,000. So that implies that he was talking about Jackson giving him money.
KING: Two different transactions. In 2001 Michael Jackson invested $2 million with Marc Schaffel to make "What More Can I Give." And Marc Schaffel made it. In 2003 Marc Schaffel took care of a personal matter for Mr. Jackson in South America using his own cash.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you talk about this personal matter in South America and that of course sets alarm bells off for Diane and myself because we were in the Jackson trial hearing about the alleged conspiracy, of which Michael Jackson was acquitted --
DIMOND: And Brazil was involved in that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Brazil was involved in that. So should we put two and two together or can you tell us no, don`t put two and two together, this has nothing to do with that alleged conspiracy to take that boy that accused Michael Jackson and his family out of the country?
KING: Well, I hate to dash your hopes, but it was Argentina.
DIMOND: Oh darn.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now you tell us.
Mr. King, I`m reading the wire copy. This is by Linda Deutsche of the AP, the senior member of the press corps out there. Everyone greatly respects her. And it says that Schaffel was asked about the $300,000 today, do you have a receipt? He said he did. He handed the paper to a lawyer, but after a private conference with the judge it was not shown to the jurors. So is there a receipt for this or not?
KING: Yeah, that was before lunch. Things changed.
DIMOND: Gotcha.
KING: After lunch it came in.
DIMOND: Welcome to the world of Michael Jackson.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One thing doesn`t change, though, and that is "What More Can I Give" has not yet been officially released. Let`s hear another fascinating clip about Michael Jackson talking about the saga of the charity album, the charity project, "What More Can I Give."
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
MICHAEL JACKSON: Marc, call Al first thing in the morning about my orders. You tell him the single has to come out now, what more can I give? They are planning other anthems, we have to be first. And I want Sony, they gotta go to Sony (INAUDIBLE) and it has to enter at number one and stay there for like, um. No, no, no, no to make a record, we want to have it like two months. Cause people want to do something because sympathy USA for Iraq, it`s a beautiful thing to do. Okay? We gotta do this Marc. It`s important. You went through all that work, I went through all that work of writing the songs. (INAUDIBLE) putting the film together. I`m putting the film together. You know, I want, you gotta send me Marc, all the outtakes or else I`m not approving it. I`m not going to let it come out unless I see all the outtakes. Don`t be holding anything back at your house. I want to see everything. Okay? Get on this first thing in the morning, it`s important. Thank you.
(END OF AUDIOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright. Well, we have to go straight out to Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman. It would seem that Michael Jackson sort of lurches from tragedy to tragedy, crisis to crisis, that we are all experiencing as a nation saying, hey, I`m going to come out with a charity project but doesn`t seem to get it to fruition. We`re talking about the 9/11 tragedy. Then we have the Iraq war. Then we have Katrina, and he has hasn`t delivered on these. Why not?
OXMAN: Who you utilize to make these projects happen is all-important and it is the determining factor. In this particular case it was apparently Mr. Schaffel who was being the one utilized, and nothing ever happened as a result. So your choice of promoter and your choice of your distributor as to who`s going to make this happen determines whether it does happen, and in fact what you`re saying is true. The selections have not been very good.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Howard King, how do you feel about your client being blamed for these charity projects not being released?
KING: Well, listen, the record was done. I`ve heard it. It`s beautiful. Sony would not consent to its release. Probably having something to do with the fact Michael Jackson called Tommy Mottola, the head of the label, a racist.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alright. Well, we have a caller from -- Mark, he is from Nevada. He`s been waiting patiently. Your question, Mark.
MARK: Yeah, why is it that Michael Jackson made all of his money and popularity singing pop music and he doesn`t do -- he does everything but pop music now?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, this is a broader question that maybe I could ask our favorite psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, why is it that these stars, when they get into their late 40s can`t simply retire gracefully and exit the stage? Why do they have to keep promising -- and he`s not the only one. We`re inundated with all this -- we`re killing a lot of trees so that people`s egos can stay elevated.
MARSHALL: Well, I mean, I think that what happens over time is the person`s identity, self-esteem, maybe even their narcissism, if you want to use the clinical term, kind of gets tied to the camera. And so their self esteem kind of rises and falls on the smiles or frowns of others and they sort of get addicted to the spotlight. But I think we also can take a look at, I mean Michael Jackson took a huge blow even though he was acquitted. And it might be that he`s not really generative or productive in terms of new albums and works at this point because he really is trying to psychologically recover, even though he didn`t really experience the consequence of a conviction, he is experiencing psychological consequences at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there are a whole bunch of plans that we`ve been hearing about. Diane Dimond, we hear that he`s going to be moving to Europe, he`s been spotted in Paris, he`s been in Ireland. What do you make of this? I know you have said publicly you don`t think he`s ever coming back to the United States.
DIMOND: I don`t think so. Too many child protective services people, too many subpoena servers. I don`t think he`s coming back here. Where will he land? I don`t know. But I think if he really wants to feel protected it should be a country with no extradition treaty to the U.S.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Which is Bahrain, right?
DIMOND: Yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can`t have a conversation about Michael Jackson without talking about Neverland. Everybody`s wondering what`s up with Neverland? Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman, we got word and we were very happy to report last night that the -- at least some of the animals, some of the big cats have been taken to Tippie Hedren`s sanctuary. She of course Melanie Griffith`s mom. So they`re in good hands. They`re looking for good homes for the other animals. But what`s going to happen with Neverland? Is he going to sell it? Is it shuttered now? Is there anybody working there?
OXMAN: Well, all I can say is that those cats must be in pretty good heaven because with Melanie Griffith around I`d like to be with them too. No question about it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good way of sidestepping the question. Brian what`s happening with Neverland?
OXMAN: Neverland is doing just fine. It is not in the full-scale production that it was prior to the trial. Michael is undecided as to exactly what`s going to happen with it. And we`re all waiting for him to make a decision. And when he does he will tell the world. But we don`t know any particular plans that he has other than just to maintain it in its present condition.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Howard King, Marc Schaffel`s attorney, is this a vortex you`ve gotten into? I mean, after all there is a countersuit. Do you really think even in the best case scenario you`ll ever see any money or could you end up, I wish I`d never gone there?
KING: I`ll invite you out to Neverland once we own it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ooh. Diane Dimond, I`m going to give you the last word on that one.
DIMOND: You know, I have some sources that know Mr. Schaffel very well, and they have always said that he would love to own Neverland, he would love to subdivide it, make a winery, have a bed and breakfast, you know, take all those beautiful cars out there, the Bentleys and whatnot, and sell them for more than they`re worth. So his answer does not surprise me at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. I love ending with a cliff-hanger because that`s exactly what it is. We`re going to have to see what happens to Neverland, who`s going to own it, who`s going to throw the next party there. Alright. We are out of time. Always fascinating to have Diane Dimond and Michael Jackson in the same conversation.
DIMOND: My pleasure.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight we remember Army National Guard Specialist Mark Melcher, just 34, killed in Iraq. Melcher, from Mount Lebanon, Pennsylvania, enlisted in the army shortly after graduating from North Catholic High School. Melcher enjoyed rooting for his favorite Pittsburgh teams including the Steelers. Melcher leaves behind his mom, dad, brother. Mark Melcher, an American hero.
We would like to thank all of our guests for their insight. And thanks to you at home for helping us track these very important cases. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then have an absolutely wonderful evening.
END
