Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Controversial Medical Legal Battle Under Way in Virginia; Escaping North Korea

Aired July 11, 2006 - 08:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Controversial medical legal battle under way in Virginia we want to talk about this morning. The case involves a 16-year-old boy named Abraham Cherrix. He was diagnosed with cancer, Hodgkin's Disease, last summer. He underwent chemotherapy, left him weak and sick, and it didn't work. The cancer came back. Doctors wanted to try a second round of chemo, but Abraham said no. He and his parents instead are going with an alternative treatment, a mixture of herbs, and roots and water. The judge is deciding today whether the state should take Abraham away from his parents and force him to get the chemotherapy.
Jay and Abraham Cherrix are in Virginia Beach this morning.

Nice to talk to both of you. Thanks for being with us.

Abraham, I'm going to start with you. Forgive my voice, I've got a little bit of a head cold this morning.

How are you feeling?

ABRAHAM CHERRIX, REFUSING CHEMOTHERAPY: I'm feeling good. I'm feeling great.

S. O'BRIEN: Really? Great, that's great news. How long have you been doing this alternative therapy?

A. CHERRIX: I've been doing this since I was told about my cancer returning, which was March, and I just started doing research when it returned, and then I began about a month later. So it was around April.

S. O'BRIEN: Do you attribute your feeling good to the alternative therapy that you've been doing?

A. CHERRIX: Oh, extremely. I feel better now than before I knew I had cancer. So you've got to think that this is working.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes. And usually doctors, of course, as you both well know, like to actually do some kind of tests to see and measurements of the tumors, et cetera, et cetera, to really determine the success of any kind of therapy. And I know that this alternative therapy actually doesn't have a ton of medical research behind it. It's really what's making all of this very controversial.

Let me throw a question to you dad for a moment, if I can. You've been charged, essentially, with neglect in the care of your son. That's why the state wants to take him away out of your custody. They say 80 percent chance that he would survive if in fact you'd have him go through the chemo, which is a horrible, horrible thing. But 80 percent chance of survival.

JAY CHERRIX, SUPPORTS SON'S MEDICAL DECISION: Well, those numbers are really not accurate. They don't take into consideration lots of other factors. When you're son gets diagnosed with cancer, it starts a nightmare that's just almost unrelentless. But to have to deal with the state and the threat of a judge saying to your son, that if he doesn't consent to conventional treatment, that he will put him in a juvenile detention center with drug dealers, or that they'll take him away from his family and put him in a foster home, that really complicates a very difficult situation that the family, we ourselves, are dealing with. We love Abraham.

I didn't come into this alternative treatment right off the bat. It took a lot to convince of this. But when I did get into it and I went and I spoke to these folks, and I found folks that had been cured using this treatment, then I backed Abraham's wishes to go ahead and do this.

S. O'BRIEN: As you know the treatment, which is called Hoxley. I think I'm pronouncing that right. It's banned in the U.S. The American Cancer Society says there's no evidence that it has any value in treatment. I'm quoting from their Web site. And they say that actually there's no documented cases of cures by Hoxley. Many parents would say, we can understand how you would want to do absolutely anything for your son. Why not go with the traditional method, and avoid the court battle altogether?

J. CHERRIX: We read an article about a fellow that was actually cured by this. And Hoxley actually did have 17 locations in the United States back in the '50s. And he won a lawsuit before the Supreme Court for libel from the American Medical Association which stated he wasn't curing people of cancer, but actually he was.

So we had our doctors telling us that there was a 25 percent chance of Abraham surviving, that they would give him massive doses of chemo, bring him to a bring of death, try to bring him back with stem cells, probably from an aborted fetus, or a cadaver, which those two things right there go against what our Christian beliefs are.

So we thought about it, we researched it, we talked to folks who had been cured by this. We arrived at the best hope to save our little boy.

S. O'BRIEN: And that best hope is really what has landed all this in the courtroom right now. Two quick questions for you. I mean, in some ways, it's less about the specifics of the treatment, and more about parental rights, I think all of this debate is.

How surprised are you that this is an argument that you're having. I mean, from all of the documents that I've read, no one's challenging or contesting that you very much love your son and you want to help him. J. CHERRIX: Well, you know, I think that the reason why they brought charges of neglect against me, is because that was a way to pressure me to pressure Abraham to consent to taking this chemotherapy. Before we were taking him to children's hospital, the insurance company paid all of our bills. We're maxed out now. We spent all of our money trying to get him to a place that will save him. To be negligent, I probably would not have cared; I would have just said, well, take the conventional way and see if that works. But I've got to find the best way to save his life, and this is the only chance that we feel that we really have.

S. O'BRIEN: Abraham, I'm going to give you the final word. How is this court battle? I know it's been quite nasty at types because your original doctor's involved and your health is obviously compromised. How is all this affecting your health?

A. CHERRIX: I don't think that it's good to worry, which is a part of this treatment. You cannot worry; you have to have a positive attitude. You can't really have all this court battle going on, and people telling you that your parents are negligent and that you could possibly be taken away from them and have to have chemotherapy, and it scares you and you lose your positive attitude there. And I think it's affected my health greatly. I think that it puts a stumbling block in the road of what I'm doing.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, I hope you and I are having this conversation 15 years from now looking back on this day, and we will wait to hear how the judge rules today.

Abraham and Jay Cherrix, thanks, gentlemen, for talking with us. Best of luck to you both.

J. CHERRIX: Thank you.

A. CHERRIX: Thank you.

S. O'BRIEN: Obviously lots of legal questions involved. Let's get right to Jeff Toobin. He's our senior legal analyst. Jeff, you know, look at that kid, who is obviously an articulate, thoughtful young man, who clearly wants to do a different treatment. He's not a crazy. He is someone who's put a lot of thought into it. Why does this whole thing end up in court?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, you can only react, first of all, as a human being and see what a delightful kid Abraham is and how much his father looks at him.

But I think you've got to take a hardheaded look at this. This Mexican clinic is Internet quackery. This is not real medical treatment. And to pretend otherwise, it's unfair to him.

S. O'BRIEN: They might say, OK, well real medical treatment, which by the way we tried, and it failed, I had to carry my kid around because he was so weak. It didn't work. We tried. We did what you told us to do. We tried. TOOBIN: But you know, try once is not what, medical treatment is about. I mean, people are treated by -- thousands of people are treated for cancer in this country all of the time. There are regimes. There are rules. There are patterns of treatment that have worked. And you know, for all that Abraham is, obviously an intelligent and delightful kid, he's a kid and the law treats people differently who are kids.

S. O'BRIEN: He's 16 years old.

TOOBIN: He's 16 years old. There are lots of cases about people with religious convictions, Christian scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, who say we will not allow our son, daughter to get treatment. And the courts regularly step in and say, no, we will take your kid away, because the state supervises children. If he were 18, you know, it would be his business, but he's not 18.

S. O'BRIEN: But even conventional doctors would say your mental state of mine actually does play a role how you're going to come through your treatment. If you have to take this kid away from your parents and you basically strap him down and force chemotherapy on him, I mean, that can't...

TOOBIN: It can't be good. It's not good. But neither are Mexican clinics making false promises good. And I just think it's -- the legal system here is not out to torture Abraham. They don't want to hurt this kid. Obviously, anybody who sees him wants what's best for him. But at some point, it is a paternalistic; it is a system that says, we know what's right for you. And there are thousands of medical treatments that have been made over the years that allow people to make those conclusions, and you know, I think he's going to lose this case. But I hope he wins this medical battle, that's for sure.

S. O'BRIEN: Gosh, we all do. Well, it will be interesting to see how a judge rules in that case later today.

Our senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin. Thanks, Jeff -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: In California, a raging wildfire in rural Del Porto (ph) Canyon. More than 2,500 acres now scorched there. The wind and steep terrain make it difficult to fight the fires. At least three hunting cabins destroyed, hundreds of homes threatened.

Opposite problem in northeast Ohio. Nearly seven inches of rain in Loudonville. Flash flooding making many roads impassable, washing out at least a couple of bridges.

And in southern Colorado, looks like winter, but it was just some pea-sized hail, lots of it. Several inches of hail piled up in Teller (ph) County. The area so far has seen as much rain so far this month as they see in a normal July.

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Anderson Cooper with a look at what's coming up on his program tonight -- Anderson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Miles, tonight, your money, their heartache. For months after the Katrina, they couldn't get FEMA trailers to live in. Now they can't get FEMA to take them away. Until they do, people are sitting ducks if another storm hits. Turning their now unwanted trailers into mobile missiles. We're keeping them honest, tonight "360" 10:00 p.m. Eastern -- Miles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: Coming up on our program, a story you'll see only on CNN. A pair of North Korean refugees risking everything to tell CNN about the horrors they experienced in their homeland.

And for years, people with HIV have taken several pills to stay healthy. Now they're toasting the end of the cocktail: A one-pill solution with people with HIV, that's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Well, North Korea spends vast amounts of money on missiles and other military expenses. Vast numbers of its people go hungry. Since 2004, only six North Korean refugees have made it to this country.

Now in a story you'll see only on CNN, Jason Carroll had a chance to speak to four of them.

Jason, good morning.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was an absolutely incredible discussion. For the first time on television, four North Korean refugees talked about a life of torture and starvation back in North Korea. They asked us to conceal their identities, for fear their families at home would be imprisoned if their identities were revealed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In other countries, criminals are people who commit murder, people who steal. But in North Korea, the criminals are people who are hungry and left the country, or people who sought freedom and left the country.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Joe (ph) is 31. Like these other refugees, at one point he escaped North Korea into China but was caught, repatriated and tortured in a place in the north he calls the prison of nightmares.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There is a stick that thick and that large, and they will place that between your calves and your thighs and make you kneel down that way. They will bind with rope your legs together. After that, I couldn't walk for two days because my legs were so numb and I thought I was paralyzed. CARROLL: Joe's (ph) sister, Chan Mi (ph), is 20. She says many in her country risk leaving, rather than face starvation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I would go to the mountains and strip the bark off trees and boil that and eat it.

CARROLL: They all feel guilty for having to leave loved ones behind. They also feel hatred toward their former leader, Kim Jong- il.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): If he would have taken the money he used to build one missile and given it to his people, they would have so much to eat. Even if I just think of Kim Jong-il, I want to carry a bomb and ignite it when I'm near him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: Still a lot of anger and guilt they're dealing with. These refugees have only been the United States for about two months, so culturally there's still a lot they're trying to adjust to. It was absolutely a fascinating and eye-opening discussion.

S. O'BRIEN: I would imagine. And I would imagine that they had a picture of this country that was maybe so different when they finally got here.

CARROLL: A very grim picture. And in fact, Soledad, the only images that they got was from the U.S. was from state-run television. It was a program that they all knew. It was called "The Rotten and Diseased Capitalist World." That's the name of the program.

S. O'BRIEN: Really?

CARROLL: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: So what do they say now?

CARROLL: Now they have a much different view. They're very happy here, very grateful, but once again, also they feel a lot of guilt for their families who are still at home.

S. O'BRIEN: I bet, everybody left behind.

Jason Carroll, thanks. A fascinating, fascinating -- you can see Jason's full report tonight on "PAULA ZAHN NOW." That airs at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Up next, Andy is "Minding Your Business."

Good morning, Andy.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning, Miles.

The answer to that timeless question, how many people really watch TV commercials. And speaking of TV, you think you have a big television? Oh, no, you don't, get ready for the Megaset, the largest plasma TV ever made. We'll tell you about that.

M. O'BRIEN: I'll have to get me one of those, I think. I'd have to find a new apartment for it.

But anyway, thanks. Also ahead on the program. New hope for AIDS, people with AIDS and HIV, looking to make their treatment a little easier. We'll tell you why they may soon be able to say goodbye to that daily cocktail of pills.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

(NEWSBREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Stay with us for more AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com