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Nancy Grace
Michael Jackson Back in Court; Dating Web site May Relate to Murder of Sarah Walker
Aired July 12, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, music icon Michael Jackson`s legal team tells a former business partner to "Beat It." A porn producer says Jackson owes him nearly $2 million.
And tonight: When she placed her profiles on various dating Web sites, including Millionairematch.com, did she unwittingly reach out to a killer? A beautiful Texas sales agent found attacked inside a model home there in the Dallas suburbs. And tonight, we are taking your calls.
But first tonight, closing arguments in yet another trial of music mega-star Michael Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you decided to terminate Mr. Schaffel in a kind and humane manner, you also intended to deprive him of reimbursement for any expenses he incurred on your behalf.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Argumentative.
(CROSSTALK)
MICHAEL JACKSON: I don`t know. I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Well, that`s not your typical answer under sworn deposition.
Joining me, investigative reporter Diane Dimond, author of "Be Careful Who You Love."
Hey, hey, hey, Rosie (ph) -- there you go. Back in court again. Explain.
DIANE DIMOND, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Oh, well, he`s not back in court. Nobody exactly knows where he is. But there is this lawsuit that a former associate filed against him, $3.8 million. And then the judge said, No, I`m only going to allow...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... the porn producer?
DIMOND: Yes, the porn producer. Only going to allow $1.6 million, Mr. Porn Producer.
And so today, we had the closing arguments started. They finish tomorrow. And I tell you what. It doesn`t really look good for the porn producer right now. I wouldn`t think he`s going to win, but you never know. Never try to guess a jury.
GRACE: Of course, as Diane Dimond accurately reports, Jackson was not in court today. Here is the substitute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Starting before 2001 and continuing at least into 2003, Marc Schaffel advised you on certain business projects, correct?
JACKSON: Advised? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, are you having trouble with the word "advised"?
JACKSON: That`s not how I saw him, as an adviser.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, did you see him as a business associate, somebody you were doing business deals with?
JACKSON: I`m not sure about that, either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before you started doing projects with Mr. Schaffel, did you have anyone do any inquiry into whether or not Mr. Schaffel had the background to be a trusted person to do projects with?
JACKSON: I wish I could have. I wish I had done that, but I didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t do it?
JACKSON: And when I did do it, I wasn`t happy -- the whole gay porn industry business he was in. And at that moment, I said, I want to be diplomatic about it, and not -- shouldn`t be associated with this anymore. You know -- it just wouldn`t be good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It wouldn`t be good, but didn`t they become essentially business partners?
DIMOND: Well, yes, and even after the lawyers fired Marc Schaffel because he was a porn producer, he continued to work for Michael Jackson.
GRACE: As a...
DIMOND: He did all sorts of projects. Well, as an adviser.
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: ... Jackson doesn`t see it that way.
GRACE: It doesn`t make it -- I can`t believe I`m defending Michael Jackson. Whoa! But just because Schaffel says so -- I mean, who am I supposed to believe, Michael Jackson or the porn producer?
DIMOND: We do know out of the testimony...
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: ... out of this court that he got the rights for this charity single...
GRACE: Who?
DIMOND: ... way back when.
GRACE: Schaffel?
DIMOND: Schaffel did.
GRACE: Schaffel.
DIMOND: Schaffel got the rights for "What More Can I Give?" And he tried to sell them to the Japanese for $400,000 or $900,000. It just depends on who you talk to.
GRACE: The Japanese what?
GRACE: Some Japanese businessman wanted to get in on the Michael Jackson juggernaut, and he agreed to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to Schaffel. And today in court, a forensic accountant sort of dissected where all that money went from the Japanese man through Schaffel. And was Schaffel correct when he said, I split the money with Jackson? The forensic CSI guy said, Uh-uh. He put it all in his own personal account and paid for his big mansion in Calabassas (ph) with it.
GRACE: OK. Take a listen to this, Diane.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Marc, we must -- Marlon Brando has been pushing. He`s a wonderful man. He`s a god. We have to get this done. We want it done before Christmas. Put together a business plan. The whole thing is fine for TV. He just wants to make a big deal. He wants a lot of money. And we would own it together. We would form our own company. Start putting that together so when we see him -- when I see him, I can just give him a presentation that we have been busy working.
He really wants it. I mean, I think that`s there`s -- maybe he`s not going to be living too much longer. That`s what it is, I think. Please, Marc, get this done. Let`s get the jive thing done. I need that money for the house. Let`s move mountains.
The album is going to be turned in. Sony`s going crazy. So we are looking good. I hope to talk to you soon. I`ll see you today at the studio at 3:30. I love you very much. Thank you. Bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney, veteran trial lawyer -- Richard, he says, We`re business partners. Let`s conquer the business world together. How can he now try to back away from being in business with a porn producer?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, he can`t. He`s killing himself with that testimony.
GRACE: Wait a minute. You`re the defense lawyer.
HERMAN: I`m a defense lawyer. This is a civil case here. So basically, he`s killing himself with that testimony, that videotaped testimony, because he`s not in the court, which I can`t believe after he filed a counter claim. In any event, his own forensic accountant testified that Jackson owed about a half a million dollars. That`s going to be devastating.
You couple that with Jackson`s failure to recollect certain transactions, I think he`s going to get stung here. I think the jury`s going to ring something up. It`s not going to be the $1.6 million, but it`s going to be something.
GRACE: Joining us now, Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman. Welcome, Brian. What`s your response?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: I think he`s right because it seems to me that the history of Michael Jackson has been he`s always come to court. For 15 years, he has always been there. And this is the first major case where Michael has not appeared. Frankly, I think that we are absolutely trashing this plaintiff in the courtroom, and we are demonstrating without doubt that he has very little claim. But I am very concerned about the fact that Michael isn`t here, and I wish he was.
GRACE: Where is he? Where is he, Brian?
OXMAN: He is in Ireland, last we heard. And that`s -- the news is about six or seven days old.
GRACE: Why isn`t he coming to court?
OXMAN: He simply is tired of lawsuits, Nancy. He`s had it with all the legal machinations which have gone on in the court system, and I don`t blame him. I don`t blame him at all.
GRACE: Let`s go to the phones. Laura in Pennsylvania. Hi, Laura.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just wanted to let you know how much I love watching you.
GRACE: Thank you!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; I watch every single night. And my question was -- it sounded like you were -- you might be getting into it -- but is there any way he can be extradited back from wherever he lives, Bahrain? I just wasn`t familiar with any kind of extradition treaties, but -- for any trial`s he may stand in the future?
GRACE: Well, on a civil trial, no. In a criminal case, possibly.
To you, Brian Oxman. What exactly, if there is any extradition treaty between the U.S. and Bahrain?
OXMAN: I don`t know that it`s even an issue. Michael has always abided...
GRACE: Now, OK...
OXMAN: ... by any order of a judge...
GRACE: Brian...
OXMAN: ... no matter what, no matter where.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!
OXMAN: I don`t think it`s an issue of any kind.
GRACE: OK. Diane, is there an extradition treaty?
DIMOND: No. There is no -- but I don`t think he`s in Bahrain anymore. I think he did not deliver this record for this prince, had a record company all set up for Michael Jackson.
GRACE: What prince?
DIMOND: This Bahrainian prince. I can`t even pronounce his name. It`s blah, blah, blah, something. And he has been living there for quite a while, almost a year, but he`s never produced this record for this record company that the prince set up. And I think that their relationship is probably pretty much over. And now, as Brian says, he was in Ireland. And he`s -- he`s -- frankly, I think he`s looking for a place to land somewhere in Europe.
GRACE: To psychotherapist Lauren Howard. Lauren, you know, there are a lot of mornings when I`d have to get up for an 8:00 AM calendar call, and think I really can`t do it. I cannot go in and do this opening or this closing argument or this cross-examination. But you know what? I did it. I prepared and I did it. Now, why can`t Jackson get up out of bed and go sing the darn songs?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Nancy, come on. He can go sing the darn song, but he doesn`t -- either he doesn`t feel that there`s a big enough case for him to have to show up -- the guy does not want to be here in America, and I have to say, I do not blame him for that. He wants to be as far away from public scrutiny as possible, and he wants as little involvement in terms of him having to show up as possible, and he`s hiding behind his lawyers. I don`t blame him for that.
GRACE: OK. Jackson not in court today, but he did provide this deposition. You judge his demeanor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I was shown a videotape by the lawyer, and I was shocked when I saw because I didn`t want to believe it when he told me. He said, Well, you have to see this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You were shocked. What is it that you saw that shocked you?
JACKSON: Oh, Marc directing this film and what he did in the film, what I saw on the screen. I didn`t believe it, so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you see on the screen that you didn`t believe?
JACKSON: Oh, he was directing two guys. They were completely naked from head to toe, and he was directing, telling one what to do with the other and -- (DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this shocked you?
JACKSON: Well, because I was surprised that he was in that business, which he never told me, and it was something that is not appropriate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you sued him, Mr. Jackson.
JACKSON: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you never asked Mr. Schaffel what he did before he met you for a living, right? That`s your testimony?
JACKSON: He pretty much hid it, I think. He didn`t tell -- he didn`t say any of that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked if you ever asked him.
JACKSON: If I ever asked him? I could have, but he didn`t say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember asking him what he used to do for a living?
JACKSON: He used to talk about stories about his life, but he never talked about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Brian Oxman, Jackson family attorney, he was shocked when he saw a naked guy? Have you looked at that book they got from his home, "The Boy Book"? Every kid in there is naked!
OXMAN: Yes. That is a documentary of the making of the famous English movie, "Lord of the Flies," Nancy. A journalist followed that picture. And you have to remember, Michael did "Making of Thriller," and he bought up hundreds of books on the makings of movies. That was one of them. It was among thousands of books...
DIMOND: You know...
OXMAN: ... buried in his library.
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: ... different book than I was looking at, Brian. I bought a copy of that book on -- on...
OXMAN: Yes, so did I. Mine...
DIMOND: ... the Internet. It cost me, like, 500 bucks, and it`s not a continuous group of boys in a movie. It`s a bunch of naked kids in all sorts of different times and positions and...
OXMAN: Yes.
DIMOND: Oh! It`s just disgusting!
OXMAN: My copy cost me $900...
DIMOND: Wow!
OXMAN: ... and I treasure it as a collector`s item. The point is, is that the naked boys...
DIMOND: I might not brag about that, if I were you. Whew!
OXMAN: Well, the naked boys are...
GRACE: You can get it for a lot less than that...
OXMAN: ... pictures of the making of "Lord of the Flies."
GRACE: ... on eBay, Brian.
OXMAN: I got a nice copy of it, and it was very important to me because...
GRACE: OK...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: We`re really getting far afield, Brian. What I`m asking you is, how can Jackson say that the sight of a naked guy shocked him? We heard all about naked guys throughout the trial.
OXMAN: Well, you have to remember that Marc Schaffel had a computer which was seized by the police. And at 2:30 in the morning...
GRACE: Didn`t Jackson have...
OXMAN: ... I was looking that computer...
GRACE: ... a computer seized by police?
OXMAN: And it had none of the photographs that Marc Schaffel`s computer had on it. My daughter walked by at 2:30 in the morning and said, Oh, my God, as she looked at Marc Schaffel`s computer. It was shocking to me, and I am no lightweight when it comes to these kinds of things. And I`m certain...
GRACE: OK.
OXMAN: ... that it shocked Michael.
GRACE: To Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, defense attorney joining us out of the Miami jurisdiction. Lida, maybe it is a good thing that he`s not there in court for his own purposes because this type of statement opens him up to a severe cross-examination.
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes, but you got to remember, Nancy, that this is a case that is very, very boring, other than for the fact that it`s Michael Jackson. This is a case for monies owed. So all that has to happen is that people have to whip out the ledgers, you got to whip out the forensic accountants. They got to sit there and they got to do the math. Did he owe this money? This is about these loans, these royalties, these expenses...
GRACE: Two million dollars.
TASEFF: Let me -- well, it started at $3.8 million. It`s now down to $1.6 million. The forensic accountants (INAUDIBLE) So Jackson said it might be, oh, about half a million dollars. And then, of course, there`s all these...
GRACE: OK. Let`s talk about the actual money. Lita has a very good point. What about it, Clark Goldband? How much money does Jackson have to attach?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, it`s hard to know, but here`s what we do know for sure. And Nancy, it`s hard to believe that someone who starts out with "Off the Wall" at $37 million is crying poverty. Take a look. You can see, $115 million, triple digits on the album "Thriller." "Bad," $60 million. "Dangerous," $60 million. But take a look at this, Nance, "History," down to $35 million.
GRACE: Let`s slow down just a moment. "Off the Wall," he made $37 million, "Thriller," $115 million.
GOLDBAND: His take. His take. Not overall (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK. "Bad," $57.5 million.
GOLDBAND: Right.
GRACE: "Dangerous," $57.5 million. "History," $35 million.
GOLDBAND: Right, but if we can stop and take a look at "History," that`s when all these charges were starting to get thrown out and float around.
GRACE: The child molestation.
GOLDBAND: So -- yes. Look, you can see it was almost split in half from (INAUDIBLE)
DIMOND: Early `90s.
GOLDBAND: Exactly, the early `90s. And it plummets from there, Nance. "Blood on the Dance Floor," just $10 million. And take a look at this. This big $60 million project, "Invincible," 15 million bucks.
DIMOND: And you know, Nancy, during the trial, we heard that he was spending about $30 million a year -- every year, every year, every year. And after "Invincible," which I`ve forgotten the year that that came out, he wasn`t bringing...
GOLDBAND: It was 2001.
DIMOND: ... wasn`t bringing in nearly that much, so...
GRACE: So what exactly, Diane, are the claims that have landed Jackson back in court, in a nutshell?
DIMOND: Marc Schaffel said, I used to work with him, I did a lot of money transactions for him, and a lot of times, I had to put up my own money, knowing that Mr. Jackson would pay me back. Now, when the police raided Schaffel`s house, they found filing cabinets full of receipts for $1.29 for Tylenol at the 7-Eleven. I mean, this is a guy who keeps receipts for everything.
So when this trial started, people said, Well, where are your receipts? He couldn`t provide them. His attorney, Howard King, will say, Oh, yes, we had a receipt, but learned today from the forensic accountant that particular receipt -- no, no. That was post-dated three years earlier. So there was a lot paper...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: How much does Schaffel have receipts for?
DIMOND: You know, I can`t tell you that he has receipts for any of it.
GRACE: OK, we`ll find out. Jackson back in court.
But very quickly, Rosie, let`s go to "Trial Tracking." It is day three of jury selection, John Evander Couey facing the Florida death penalty in the killing, rape and abduction of 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford. A second defense motion today for a change of venue out of Citrus County denied. Couey`s detailed murder confession and prior assault allegations tossed out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You learned at some point in time about Mr. Schaffel`s background in what you called a pornography...
JACKSON: It`s not what I call, that`s what it was. I don`t think mothers (ph) who are watching sort of thing or know about this relationship -- knowing that we`re going to do -- I`m just -- knowing what my agenda is coming up, what material I have coming forward to the world, what song, what film I did, the two won`t go together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Believe it or not, Michael Jackson back in a court of law. No, not about child molestation. This time, about nearly $2 million of alleged loans, expenses and royalties a porn producer says Jackson owes to him. Now, Jackson gave a sworn deposition. That has been introduced into court, as well as reams of phone messages. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Marc, call Al first thing in the morning about my orders. You tell him the single has to come out now, "What More Can I Give?" They are planning other anthems. We have to be first. And I want Sony -- they got to go to Sony and get them in gear. It has to enter at number one and stay there for, like, oh -- no, no, no, no. To make a record, we want to have, like, two months because people want to do something because sympathy, USA for Iraq. It`s a beautiful thing to do, OK? We got to do this, Marc. It`s important.
(INAUDIBLE) do all the work. I went through all that work of writing the songs. You and Frank putting the film together, I`m putting the film together. You know, but I want -- you got to send me, Marc, all the outtakes because I`m not approving. I won`t let it come out unless I see all the outtakes. And don`t be holding anything back at your house. I want to see everything, OK? Get on this first thing in the morning. It`s important. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What time of the night was that left, Diane?
DIMOND: Well, I heard that many of them were...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... 3:00 AM phone calls.
DIMOND: Yes, many of them were after midnight. But that`s his schedule. I mean, people at the ranch told me he slept until 4:00 and...
GRACE: Well, somebody`s been drinking the Jesus juice again because, remember that he said sleeping with boys, that was a, quote, "beautiful thing"?
DIMOND: Oh, yes.
GRACE: Now the US/Iraq is a "beautiful thing."
Let`s go to the lines. Lawan in Texas. Hi, Lawan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is that, is it true that Michael Jackson has changed his religion from Christian to Muslim in Bahrain?
GRACE: Let`s ask Brian Oxman about that. Is that true, Brian? Has he changed his religion?
OXMAN: No.
GRACE: I think he was Jehovah`s Witness at one time?
OXMAN: That is correct, Nancy. He was a Jehovah`s Witness and he will probably be a Jehovah`s Witness all of his life. He has not changed his religion. Michael is a very staunch believer in the Lord, and it guides his life. I`ve talked to him about it, and I just don`t see him ever changing his beliefs because they are so firmly held.
GRACE: What about his beliefs in being the big spender, Clark?
GOLDBAND: He spent $10,000 on a thimble full of perfume in Las Vegas. It makes that Four Season`s Hotel suite sound cheap, to be frank. And quite frankly, Nancy, what kind of price can you put on a monkey?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a secret in this case, and that secret is, No tickey, no money. Marc Schaffel does not have the documentation to establish this kind of case, and that`s becoming apparent in the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He called himself an idiot on the stand for trusting Michael Jackson and not getting receipts. He should have got a receipt. He`s an idiot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Michael Jackson back in court. This time, it`s Jackson versus a porn producer. The porn producer says Jackson owes him nearly $2 million.
So Clark, what can you tell us far as, for instance, the face-off against these two? What are the characteristics? Who`s against who in court?
GOLDBAND: It`s time to take a look at the tale (INAUDIBLE) as the face-off, boxing gloves come off. We have Michael Jackson. He makes music videos. Marc Schaffel makes porn videos. As we take a look at the next one, Jackson earns about $60 million an album, and well, Jackson -- sorry - - Schaffel earns thousands of dollars per video. We don`t quite know where Michael Jackson is. Brian Oxman says he`s there in Ireland. We don`t know. But Schaffel, we can tell you he`s in California.
Moving along, let`s take a look at the next one, and Jackson says he never asked Schaffel for any money. Schaffel says, Jackson asked me for money. And last but not least, Nancy, they have something in common. Jackson says he promised this charity singles. They haven`t come out. Schaffel also promises charity singles. We`re still waiting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You used the word pornography. What do you mean by the word "pornography"?
JACKSON: What do I mean by it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
JACKSON: It`s what it was. First on the screen, they were doing one thing. And then when he came in, he was like directing the whole thing. That`s pornography, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you`re actually not trying to make a legal definition of pornography. You`re just saying that you saw naked men holding each other`s (bleep) and that bothered you?
JACKSON: Well, I`m just telling you what I saw.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that, no matter how surprised and shocked you were to learn of Marc Schaffel`s background, that no steps were actually taken to terminate his business relationship with you?
JACKSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What steps were taken to terminate his business relationship with you?
JACKSON: I don`t know what steps were taken, but I remember him being adamant that he disassociate himself with us, as far as business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Michael Jackson back in court. He`s being sued by a pornographer. Jackson says in his sworn deposition he`s shocked at the naked male form, but this book was taken out of his home. And take my word for it: Here`s one page with the front of the naked male form, and here`s the page with the back of the male naked form.
Brian Oxman, I know you stand by this as being a collector`s piece, but I don`t know if everybody would agree with you. Back to the issue at hand, to Diane Dimond, what else have we learned in court?
DIMOND: Well, what popped out to me, at one point Frederic Marc Schaffel was on the stand, and he was talking about $300,000 that Michael Jackson owed him because he had taken this money, his own money, overseas to adopt boys, adopt children, for Michael Jackson. And it sort of just hung in the courtroom there for a moment. And then he said, "Well, first he wanted a girl and a boy," and then he wanted boys.
GRACE: Wait. Schaffel says Jackson gave him money to adopt children overseas?
DIMOND: He wanted to adopt children overseas. And so Schaffel says he took his own money out of his own bank to do this, and it was never repaid. But, again, there was no receipt. And as Brian says, no ticky, no payback.
GRACE: What about it, Brian?
OXMAN: In the criminal case in Santa Maria, there must have been 600,000 documents. It was the most extensive police investigation that I`ve ever heard in history. And there`s not one word of this at all in any of that documentation from the police. This is a creation of fiction from Marc Schaffel.
GRACE: Let`s go to the phones. Levi in Tennessee. Hi, Levi.
CALLER: Hey, Nancy. Diane, you wrote a great book.
DIMOND: Thank you.
CALLER: You`re welcome. I have a question: Michael Jackson said he`s shocked about this. He had a book, "The Boy," which is recommended -- by the way, which is recommended by NAMBLA.
GRACE: North American Man-Boy Love Association?
CALLER: Scumbags, just like Jackson. I want to know...
GRACE: Now, I don`t know about that, but I know what NAMBLA is. Go ahead.
CALLER: He says -- can the other side open the doors, since he says that it was shocking? Can they bring in his pornography into evidence?
GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Richard Herman?
HERMAN: ... it`s ripe for cross-examination. But I got to tell you, Nancy...
GRACE: Hey, you`re talking like a lawyer. What do you mean, "ripe for cross-examination"?
HERMAN: He opened the door to allow this type of cross-examination.
GRACE: But he`s not there to question.
HERMAN: Well, listen, you and Diane have been relentless with Michael. And I just want to remind you, Nancy Grace, it was just a few years ago you were performing his moonwalk to audiences. I think we should see that tonight in honor of this case. Get up there, Nancy.
GRACE: I was trying to perform -- here`s the deal, though. That`s a really good point, and I`m going to throw this to Lida joining us, another defense attorney, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff.
Lida, everybody, that I know, anyway, grew up to loving Michael Jackson. I would be two inches from the screen as a little girl trying to dance like Michael Jackson and sound like Michael Jackson. And the reality is that is a big plus for him, and that was shown in his earlier trial. Will this be a repeat?
TASEFF: Well, it absolutely will be a repeat. And the reason he`s away is because the best way to make it a repeat is to keep him out of the courtroom and use his testimony that he gave in deposition.
Is it rambling? Is it weird? Is it funky that he doesn`t remember certain things? Well, he`s an artist. You know, Nancy, they`re not supposed to remember. And so, as a result, the fact that he`s not there...
GRACE: What, an artist is not supposed to remember?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: No.
GRACE: Where`d you get that?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Not financial matters.
GRACE: Where did you go to law school?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Well, NYU. But, Nancy, as you know, the issue here isn`t whether or not he knows finances. And his argument is: Look, I didn`t do spreadsheets. I was too busy with music, with art, with creating videos.
Now, you and I both know they were kind of floppy and didn`t succeed very well as...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yes, you know what, Lida?
Speaking of art, Brian Oxman, did you know, if Levi in Tennessee is correct that this book was suggested by NAMBLA, North American Man-Boy Love Association...
DIMOND: It`s on their Web site.
GRACE: It`s on their Web site?
OXMAN: Nancy, all of these books were really very difficult to deal with. But what you have to remember about this particular book...
GRACE: Will you represent me if I`m ever charged with a felony?
OXMAN: You betcha. You betcha.
GRACE: You`re not going to find this laying around my place!
OXMAN: Michael Jackson has a library consisting of one million books. The police seized 17 which had this kind of body image and nakedness. Nancy, the Library of Congress is much worse than Michael Jackson`s library.
DIMOND: You forgot all the hundreds of magazines that they also...
(CROSSTALK)
OXMAN: Oh, yes, they had LaToya`s picture in them. They had Bo Derek`s picture in them.
DIMOND: They had pictures that made Mrs. Jackson sitting in front of me in the courtroom put her head down and start to weep.
OXMAN: She was not weeping because of the photographs, guaranteed, because Mrs. Jackson thought that this entire thing was wrong.
GRACE: OK, guys. Let`s hear it from the horse`s mouth. Here is Michael Jackson in yet another voicemail.
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JACKSON: Marc, it`s Michael Jackson calling. Don`t forget for the studio we`re building at Neverland we agreed to put the editing bay for filmmakers and a whole editing compound area for the side for rehearsal. That`s important to remember that.
I want to give Nicky your number, and Nicky will call you directly, OK? Nicky will call you, also. Thanks, bye.
Marc, it`s Michael Jackson. I would love to have an update on where we stand with our projects, from Microsoft to Beyonce`s recording of the song. She did a great job yesterday. I was proud of her.
And, please, for me, make the house thing totally anonymous. None of my other people or company should know. And I want you to put a down payment so we can get rolling on it, please.
I beg of you, please. This should be my present for three years of hard work on the album; I think I deserve it. So help me, please. Thank you, Marc. Thank you so much. Love you, bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, our defense attorney, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, says that artists aren`t supposed to know anything about business, but he sure sounded cognizant of a business deal there.
Let`s go out to the lines. Hi, Katrina.
CALLER: Hey, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: You`re killing me with that book. I want to know...
GRACE: You don`t want to know, honey.
CALLER: I want to know if Michael Jackson ever paid his lawyers.
GRACE: Good question. What about it, Brian Oxman?
CALLER: Thanks, Nancy.
DIMOND: Oh, I can hardly wait to hear Brian answer this.
OXMAN: I refuse to answer on the grounds that it probably will incriminate me.
DIMOND: Yes, well, I can tell you, my sources tell me that he has left a string of attorneys unpaid, including one who showed up in court the other day, Zia Modabber, who testified for Michael and against...
GRACE: Well, I hope he paid Mesereau.
DIMOND: Oh, no, I hear he did pay Mesereau. And I hear that Geragos got paid, too. But not poor Brian.
GRACE: Speaking of $10,000 ounce of perfume and so forth, what about the Elizabeth Taylor gift exchange?
DIMOND: It`s amazing that we`ve always heard that they were best friends. Elizabeth, and Marlon Brando, and all of them, yet we heard testimony that he wanted to give each of them a million dollars apiece to do favors for him. That doesn`t sound like friendship to me.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All I care about is that she has left behind two children, one who is very small, who will never know her mother. I want the best for him and for her other son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a really great way of making you laugh. Everything I can remember from her was from a kid, you know, even today, she always made me smile. She had a certain chuckle after she`d say something, you know, to kind of keep you going. She wanted nothing but the best for everyone.
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GRACE: Sarah Anne Walker, what a beauty, leaving behind two boys to live a life without a mom, one 15, one just 3 years old.
Out to Lance Liguez with WBAP Radio 820. Tell me about Sarah Anne Walker.
LANCE LIGUEZ, REPORTER, WBAP RADIO: Well, this is a murder that occurred, what, Saturday at a model home in McKinney. A couple found her murdered in that home. And since then, police have been following up on clues, interviewing her ex-husband, who by all accounts was very friendly to her and the family.
Also, investigating an online dating Web site, where Ms. Walker had a personal ad. They`re investigating the responses she got to that, over 50. The family tells us that she was a very outgoing person, successful in her career, and they can`t imagine anyone who would do this to her.
GRACE: Lance, let me ask you a couple of quick questions. What was the time of death?
LIGUEZ: Time of death was sometime on Saturday afternoon, roughly.
GRACE: It`s my understanding it was around 12:30?
LIGUEZ: Roughly, yes.
GRACE: OK. Mode of death?
LIGUEZ: Well, according to police, she was beaten and stabbed, stabbed as many as 27 times in the upper body.
GRACE: Was she found face-up, face-down?
LIGUEZ: We don`t know that. We know there were defensive wounds, according to police, signs of a struggle. That`s about all police have released about the inside of the crime scene.
GRACE: It`s my understanding she was found face-down, fully clothed, wearing her jewelry, purse still in the model home, is that correct?
LIGUEZ: Right. And there`s no evidence of a robbery.
GRACE: I want to go out to Jeff Domen. This is Sarah Walker`s divorce attorney.
Jeff, thank you for being with us. By all accounts, your former client didn`t have an enemy in the world. Her divorce was amicable. In fact, didn`t they pretty much work it out amongst themselves?
JEFF DOMEN, SARAH WALKER`S DIVORCE ATTORNEY: They did, Nancy, and thank you for having me on. Sarah actually was able to work everything out with her husband, Randy.
And it`s interesting, because so many of the cases that I deal with on a daily basis are people who are going through a very stressful time in their lives. And a lot of times when they`re going through that much stress you tend to see the worst in people.
And Sarah was the kind of client who always had a positive outlook, and was always happy and fun to be around, and, you know -- and because of that, that`s why I think this murder is so shocking.
GRACE: And, of course, a while back, people would be shocked at online dating, but it`s not so shocking anymore. It`s actually very, very common.
To Clark Goldman, what can you tell us about the sites that she was on? I know one was MillionaireMatch.com?
GOLDBAND: Exactly right. And here it is, Nancy, the site we have on right behind me. It`s MillionaireMatch.com, where you don`t have to be a millionaire. All you have to do is pay the $19.95 per month membership fee.
If we can take a look at her profile and scroll down to the next screen, here you can see her sitting, enjoying her drinks at the beach. Nance, she says she`s at the Ritz Carlton. So she`s showing that she has some cash.
And if we can take a look at her profile, here`s where you make a crucial online mistake. For her name, she chooses her real name, as you can see, Sarah Walker. You shouldn`t choose that. You should choose NancyGraceFan12. This identifies her.
Also, exact location there in Texas, another problem. And she claims she makes over $200,000 a year. All this information out there for free on this Web site.
GRACE: But, to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, former member of the FBI joint terrorism task force, he`s a computer specialist, putting your -- there was no robbery here. So the money that she may have put, that she made on the Web site, is irrelevant?
STEVEN ROGERS, COMPUTERS SPECIALIST: Well, the motive is a real mystery to the police. But what`s interesting and what`s good -- at least insofar as the investigation is going to be concerned -- is that the police have a gold mine of information that they can now dig into, vis-a-vis those computers.
They`re going to be looking, Nancy, for electronics footprints from her computer to the profile, from the profile to other people who use computers to get to that profile.
GRACE: And how hard is that to do?
ROGERS: Well, it`s not too hard, with the science and technology that the police have today. Of course, it`s going to take a court to grant a court order to subpoena those records to the police department. But once they start rolling, believe me, they`re going to be able to pick up on a trail real quick. And at the very least, Nancy, they may be able to eliminate some suspects, which is also a help in targeting who may have committed this terrible crime.
GRACE: To psychotherapist Lauren Howard, 27 stab wounds, upper body. I can`t tell yet if that includes face, neck, but I know upper torso, fully clothed. No sex assault, apparently, and no robbery. Shrink it.
HOWARD: Deeply personal crime. I mean, that does not have the earmarks of a random killing, although -- and we`ve said this before on your show, Nancy -- when a person starts stabbing, if they`re in that sort of adrenalized frenzy, it`s not like it`s a definitive one-by-one stab. You know, it`s a motor that`s running. It`s an active, incredible rage, and it`s deeply personal.
It`s not a distant -- you know, it`s not hitting somebody over the head and running. It`s not getting them from behind. It`s in their face, multiple rage stabbings.
GRACE: To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner, Dr. Arden, 27 wounds. What does this suggest to you? You`ve seen this type of case before.
JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I have, although these are unusual. And I agree that you think of this being some sort of rage, some sort of -- you might be temped to think of it were like overkill. It certainly involves a huge frenzy of activity.
But something that could have been either somebody who had it in for her from before or it could be somebody who perhaps thought he was robbing the place, comes upon her, and now sort of flips out and says, "I`ve got to get rid of the witness."
The number of wounds may also be related to the defensive wounds, which it sounds like she was actively defending herself and putting up a struggle, which would also then increase the likelihood of transfer of trace element and DNA and that kind of thing, which would give the police and the forensics lab something else to go on to try to find traces of the killer and track him or her -- most likely him -- and try to match somebody, maybe get a cold hit of a DNA database, something like that.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Dr. Arden, very often when you have a multiple stab wound case, the assailant also somehow manages to get cut. And the most ordinary way, most typical way of that happening -- Rosie, come to me just one moment, please -- the hand of the attacker will come down on the sheath of the knife during the attack, and you may end up getting some of the assailant`s blood there at crime scene.
Doctor, have you seen that?
ARDEN: Absolutely. And, in fact, people leave their fingerprints literally and their fingerprints figuratively in things like DNA, and hair, and whatever traces come off of them.
This is one of those cases, where if you cut yourself in the process some of the blood that will be analyzed for DNA will have a mixture of the victim, who can you easily test against, and the assailant. And that`s a good way to find somebody with something that`s so subtle and literally chemical and microscopic.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last thing that happened when we left, I told -- my son was sitting in the car seat here. I said, "Turn around and blow your mom a kiss, and tell her you love her." And he goes, "I love you." And she was in the car, and she goes, "I love you, too," and that`s it. That`s the last thing he`ll remember, at least.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is the ex-husband of Sarah Anne Walker. They had a very amicable divorce and were raising their 3-year-old son together. She has a 3-year-old and a 15-year-old.
This beautiful girl was found murdered in a model home that she was showing. She was a high-producing real estate agent, Sarah Anne Walker. Tip line: 972-547-7600. Reward: $30,000. The wake for her tonight. The funeral, Thursday, 11:00 a.m.
Back to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, Lauren, have you learned, as a therapist, that your patients or others let down their guard online? When you`re tap, tap, tap, tap, IMing to someone on a daily basis, you think you know them, even though you`ve never met them and they could be lying?
HOWARD: There`s no question that there`s an anonymity to what you expose about yourself when on the Internet. I mean, that`s clear.
But, you know, there`s also a certain anonymity, if you`re not a member of a society of a culture where you know the people that you`re dating. People present themselves in the way they want to be presented in those sort of early mating, you know, early courting.
So you really -- you reveal the part of yourself that want exposed. And certainly, on the Internet, that`s what do you when you keep it at the chat level. But if you`re going to move forward into actually meeting someone, the reality is, it`s going to reveal itself. I mean, I`ve heard stories where, you know, people change their physical descriptions.
GRACE: Very quickly, Clark, in the few seconds we have left, online dating is a huge industry.
GOLDBAND: Right. You`re talking about $500 million a year, almost 20 percent of the population in the U.S. has tried online dating or they`ve seen profiles. And here`s what`s scary, Nancy: Men with $250,000 or more receive twice the response.
GRACE: Or men who claim they have $250,000 or more. Thank you to all of our guests.
Let`s stop for a moment to remember Private First Class Patrick A. Tinnell, just 25, killed, Iraq. He hailed from Lake Havasu City, Arizona, and leaves behind parents, a brother, and a little dog, Mary. Patrick Tinnell, American hero.
Thank you to our guests. Our biggest thank you to you. Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. See you here 8:00 sharp tomorrow. Good night, friend.
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