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Nancy Grace

Florida Judge Dismisses Couey Jury

Aired July 13, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Florida. Florida trial judge Rick Howard throws out the jury and sends everybody home in the case of John Evander Couey, Couey on trial for the kidnap and death of 9- year-old Jessie Lunsford. Couey`s confession also thrown out, but we have it for you here tonight.
Also tonight: Did a Dallas beauty unwittingly reach out to a killer on upscale dating Web sites? Why was she sent alone to show a model home in a secluded but upscale community? Did police surveil her funeral today? And if so, why? And tonight, we take your calls.

But first, breaking news out of Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were candid with us. We needed that. You`ll fulfill the highest services of your jury`s duties. We are in recess.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel better that I -- you know, I feel now I can go on, and I hope that justice is fulfilled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez, standing by live at the courthouse. Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, Nancy, we started off the day with 58 jurors to go into this final phase of jury selection, and that`s when the judge said, Has anything happened to anybody or anything said to them in the last couple of days that we need to know? That`s when hands started to raise. And one by one, jurors went up to the judge. It was all at sidebar. We weren`t privy to what was said. But each and every juror the judge then released. So we went from 58 to 48.

And then the judge said, You know what? I think maybe all of you need to be sequestered right now, and before the end of the day, if you are a final juror, you`re going to be escorted home, get your suitcase and you`re going to go straight to a motel. He was very upset. That`s when he took all the attorneys into his chambers. They came back 10 minutes later, and he said, We are dismissing the entire jury panel for the John Couey trial.

GRACE: What is hanging in the balance is justice for 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford, commonly known as the girl in the pink hat, taken out of her own home there with her grandparents in the middle of the night. The state alleges a registered sex offender living just 100 or so feet from her took her out of her own home in the middle of the night. Finally, we are in court. He`s having his day in court. Today, trial judge Rick Howard throws the entire jury panel out of the courthouse.

Jean Casarez, let me get the question straight. He said, Between yesterday and today, have any of you heard about the case? Is that what he said?

CASAREZ: Or the last time that they met with the judge. Remember, Nancy, some of these jurors came in on Monday and they were individually questioned by the judge and attorneys, and now they`re back today. Others Tuesday, some Wednesday. So, Has anything happened since we last spoke? Have you talked to anybody? Has anybody talked to you? And that`s when some jurors raised their hands.

GRACE: Take a listen to what one of the dismissed jurors had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I remember when the girl had first become -- you know, come up missing. And I knew that -- I don`t know how much time had passed, I am assuming maybe a week or so afterwards, when she was found, that she was found and was deceased.

And I -- I think, like a lot of potential jurors, we got a lot of cases confused because I thought that the case that involved the girl who had -- had been abducted at a car wash, that was on videotape -- we got that confused. OK, I -- those two kind of blended together for me. And when I mentioned that information, they assured me that that was not the same case.

I think he was doing a very good job of working hard to make sure that the jury he did seat was impartial, very careful with everything, every step of the process. I`ve never been through this process before personally. So I would have to say that we were surprised because it felt that things were going the way I think he hoped them to go. So I don`t know what development may have happened or if it was just a final decision that he, you know, decided to make when he decided to no longer use Lake County jurors for his pool of jurors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I cannot believe a whole panel of jurors have been thrown out, a courtroom full of jurors thrown out, and some of the jurors didn`t even understand what case they were there to hear? They thought -- clearly, she`s talking about the Carlie Brucia case. Unacceptable!

Let`s go to the "Star Chamber." Joining us tonight, three veteran trial judges that sat on the bench over some of the most heinous crimes ever heard in this country, all of them leaving the bench of their own free will. They have heard murder cases, rape cases, child molestation cases, presided over hundreds of jury selections.

Let`s go out to Congressman Ted Poe, former judge, Harris County, Texas. Judge Poe, I`m not so distressed necessarily at what Judge Rick Howard did, if he thought he couldn`t get a fair and impartial jury. But it sounds like the jury didn`t even know what case they were hearing. Did you hear that? This lady thought she was hearing the Carlie Brucia case.

REP. TED POE (R-TX), FORMER HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS, JUDGE: That`s correct, Nancy. It`s better for a case like this, or any case, to be tried in the county in which the crime was committed. Now, that`s part of our law in this country. It`s a great concept. And it`s better for not only the defendant but the victim`s family, as well.

So the judge made the decision based on the information he had. I hope it wasn`t premature. We`ve all tried cases that have a lot of publicity. That`s no reason to make a case go to another county. The real question is, Have you made up your mind about the guilt or innocence of the person on trial? Just knowing something about the case does not preclude you from being on a jury.

GRACE: Judge Poe, when you say you hope it wasn`t premature, what did you mean by that?

POE: Well, you know, there were 48 qualified jurors, or jurors that he was going to talk to today. He`d already talked to some jurors this week. So as you progress through the panel, you find people that are qualified. Then all of a sudden, you dismiss the panel. Usually, you make that decision before you ever start picking a jury panel, as to whether or not a person can get a fair trial. You don`t make that decision in the middle of jury selection. So it was somewhat unique in this case that he did that.

GRACE: Let`s go out to another veteran trial judge, former judge in the Atlanta jurisdiction, Judge Gino Brogdon. Judge, have you ever thrown out a whole panel?

GINO BROGDON, FORMER JUDGE, FULTON CO., GEORGIA, SUPERIOR COURT: Yes, but not going halfway through the panel. I think this judge should have exercised a little more patience in trying to find other qualified jurors. But there have been times that I`ve had to throw out a panel of 60 people because 40 of them said that, based on the allegations alone, they could not follow the law, they could not apply the presumption of innocence and they could not give a fair trial, which is the ultimate goal for the defendant.

GRACE: Back to our third panel member tonight on our "Star Chamber" - - all three veteran and respected trial judges -- Paul Kerson, former judge, Ardsley, New York. Judge, thank you for being with us tonight. Judge Kerson, I`m having a hard time understanding throwing out an entire panel. It`s like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Why the whole panel?

JUDGE PAUL KERSON, RETIRED JUDGE, ARDSLEY, NEW YORK: Well, thank you, Nancy. First of all, I`ve defended a lot of these cases as a defense attorney. As a judge, I didn`t have them. But when I`ve defended them -- this has to be a death-qualified jury. That`s a very special kind of a jury because the prosecutor here is asking for the death penalty, which means this is the rarest kind of jury that is ever selected. These are people who have to say, Look, I do not have a philosophical objection to the death penalty. I am willing to impose it, if the evidence demands it. That`s a small group of people. It`s certainly not everybody, and it`s not every juror. So that makes this job much, much harder.

Then there`s the pre-trial publicity part. This is very difficult in a small town or even an adjacent small town or a small county, to find anybody who hasn`t heard about such a heinous crime. Now, in a big city, you`re more likely to find it because in a big city, unfortunately, heinous crimes are frequent, or at least, even if they`re not frequent...

GRACE: Right.

KERSON: ... in actual numbers, statistically, there`s enough of them so that it`s not shocking. So really, what should happen here is this trial should be moved to a large Florida city -- Orlando, Miami -- someplace where you will find 12 people who are not shocked by this, who, even if they saw the publicity, will be able to say, Look, I can still be fair and impartial.

Now, that`s a difficult group of people to find. However, in Florida, you should be able to find them because the best jurors for a case like this are people who recently retired because they now have plenty of time on their hands. They`d like to perform an important public function.

GRACE: OK...

KERSON: They`ve got time -- 0

GRACE: Let`s go out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. We`ll be right back with the judges. Jean Casarez, this is a veteran trial judge, Judge Rick Howard. It`s my understanding he tried cases before he got on the bench, unlike a lot of political hacks who get government appointments to the bench. But was he exhibiting more and more displeasure every time another juror would say they had heard of the case or you questioned the juror for 20 minutes?

CASAREZ: I think that`s a very -- I think that`s a very big point, Nancy, because I saw his emotions change during the course of this week. He was jovial. He was nice. And I suddenly started to see him get so very stressed. And today, I think the ultimate, before he dismissed the jurors, he said, You`re all going home, and you`re all going to be sequestered right now.

But Nancy, I need to tell you there is some word tonight that possibly some of the jurors were actually threatened that were possibly going to make up this jury. We were told by one of the sheriff`s deputies here at the courthouse that one juror, upon leaving, was yelled at by someone saying, You better convict him! And local news reports...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Jean, I`m sorry. I can`t hear you. Would you repeat that, please?

CASAREZ: We`re understanding tonight that there is a distinct possibility that some of the jurors were threatened that were going to possibly be on this case. And a sheriff`s deputy personally told us that one juror leaving was yelled at, You better convict him! One of...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Jean, I`m having a problem with your satellite. Let`s take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I expect that there are places in Florida where people have not heard quite as much about this case as they have right here in the fifth circuit. What it looked apparent that we were going to have to do was individually question at least 30 to 60 more potential jurors to fill the spaces of those that had been released today. That`s going to take at least another full day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s try to go back to Jean Casarez at the courthouse. Jean, can you hear me?

CASAREZ: Yes, I sure can.

GRACE: OK. Sorry. Would you repeat?

CASAREZ: What we are understanding tonight is that there is a possibility that some jurors that were going to be on this jury, potential jurors, were actually threatened by others in the community, that, You better convict him! Now, local news is reporting this. A source I have at the top of the investigation, when I ask this question, I get silence. And then I am told that they believe they are not privy to tell me, at this point, what was included in that sidebar conversation today.

But I do believe that 10 of the jurors that were excused today, at least some of them may have gone up to the judge, saying that they had been the result of a verbal threat because that`s when the judge`s emotions seemed to get out of control on that bench today.

GRACE: Well, I can`t necessarily say that I blame the judge for that. But I`m now interested in what, if anything, is going to be done about it. Who said these things, allegedly, to the jurors?

Let`s go out to the lines. Ginny in Florida. Hi, Ginny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live in central Florida, and I`m very concerned about their ability to find an impartial jury. Not all people in Florida are retired people. And I`m -- what are they going to do if they can`t find an impartial jury?

GRACE: Well, I`ll be frank with you. As much as I respect Judge Kerson with us tonight out of the Ardsley jurisdiction, I`ve never heard of anybody say, Strike a jury of 12 retired people. I`ve never had that many people on a jury in my life, and I`ve struck plenty. Yet retired people are available for the duration of the trial. They don`t have a job to go to. Very often, they don`t have young children that they`ve got to raise at home. So that`s a quality of a retired juror.

But here, let`s go out to Alan Ripka. Jean is describing how the tensions are rising, rising, rising with the judge in the courtroom. Now I understand why. Of course, as the trial goes on, everybody gets worn out and exhausted. I can understand that. But have you ever had a case, Alan, where potential jurors actually felt threatened?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have not, Nancy. I`ve never had a case that was so big that people were outside and they were threatening or yelling at the jurors, especially in a case that may be so clear-cut that they didn`t have to be threatening the jurors because the jurors may do it on their own.

GRACE: Well, another pressure on this jury panel. As you know by now -- will there ever be justice for Jessie Lunsford, a 9-year-old girl taken out of her own home, sleeping there with her grandparents, by a registered sex offender living a couple of hundred feet from her home. The entire jury panel thrown out of the courtroom today by trial judge Rick Howard. We`re not saying that`s wrong or right. We`re trying to find out why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Another issue may be simple Trial 101, the rule of sequestrations. A lot of these jurors know when they come to hear the evidence, they might as well bring their toothbrush and their PJs because they`re not going home. They`re going to a local Motel 8. They will not see their family or friends, the news, the newspapers, magazines, television, nothing for the duration of the trial.

Joining us right now out of Tavares, Florida, Nancy Schultz. Ms. Schultz is a dismissed juror. Ms. Schultz, thank you for being with us. Were you aware that any of the other jurors had be hassled or threatened regarding the verdict?

NANCY SCHULTZ, DISMISSED JUROR IN COUEY TRIAL: No, I do not.

GRACE: Tell me why you were dismissed, Nancy.

SCHULTZ: I was the mother that broke down on the stand on Monday being questioned.

GRACE: What happened?

SCHULTZ: I thought I would be OK, walking in. And I saw him, and then I saw Jessica`s father and knew I couldn`t do it. I could not be a voice for her because the man made me sick to my stomach.

GRACE: So when you went into the courtroom, Nancy, you were familiar with the case generally, but you felt you could have an open mind and remain impartial.

SCHULTZ: Yes, I could. I remember when it was on the news a year- and-a-half ago, when she was missing, and the Amber Alert. And then I also remember when he was caught and he confessed to the case. And I really thought I could go in there an have an open mind and be able to be a voice for Jessica. But myself, I have a 7-year-old daughter. And when I saw the man, I just couldn`t do it.

GRACE: You know what, Ms. Schultz? I felt the same way every time I walked into a courtroom to handle a murder or a child molestation case. When did you realize you couldn`t do it?

SCHULTZ: I just couldn`t do it. It`s kind of hard to say. I mean, Judge Howard was very, very nice with everything he said. He was very polite. He did try and get me to calm down on the stand. But I saw Mr. Lunsford, and the deepest sorrows come from my heart to him. I feel bad I couldn`t help him.

GRACE: Joining us tonight, dismissed juror Nancy Schultz.

When we come back, straight back down to the Florida courthouse, standing by, Eben Brown with Newsradio 970 and Jean Casarez, as well as our "Star Chamber." Tonight, we are taking your calls. The entire jury panel, in a highly unusual legal move, thrown out of the courthouse today by trial judge Rick Howard. Will there be justice for 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford?

Very quickly, Rosie, let`s go to "Case Alert." A lawsuit explodes on the scene in the CIA leak investigation. An undercover operative whose identity leaked to the media goes after top White House officials for conspiring to destroy her career and putting her own family in danger. Valerie Plame files suit against Vice President Dick Cheney, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, presidential adviser Karl Rove and 10 others in the Bush White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD KING, FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I`m Brad King. I`m the state attorney of the fifth judicial circuit. And my role is, I`m the head of the office that is prosecuting the case. This is not the first case of this magnitude that we`ve tried. The Carla Brucia case was tried just a couple months ago, and they were able to impanel a jury and try that case.

We will have to move the case to another county, but I don`t foresee any problem eventually getting a jury and trying the case. It was unfortunate for the family`s sake because they emotionally, I think, were prepared as well as they could be for the trial to proceed and be over with in a couple weeks, and now they have to go through that entire emotional preparation all over again.

But more than anything else, we have to make sure that when we try the case, we do it without, you know, reversible error in it so that we don`t have to try the case again. And so the judge made the decision that we just needed to start over in another county.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Those were the words of the prosecutor.

Now, a lot is being kept from this jury, as you may well know by now. In fact, a detailed confession will never make it into evidence. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JOHN EVANDER COUEY, ACCUSED IN LUNSFORD MURDER: I (DELETED) in font of the kid...

(CROSSTALK)

COUEY: ... in front of a child, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old was she?

COUEY: (INAUDIBLE) and no physical contact. There wasn`t nothing (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s exactly what we heard.

COUEY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But she`s only 5, though, right? She`s younger?

COUEY: I think she was. I can`t tell. But she was pretty young. (INAUDIBLE) I regret it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you get rid of her?

COUEY: I put her in a bag.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of bag?

COUEY: Plastic garbage bag, bags.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she scream (INAUDIBLE)

COUEY: No. I swear to God. You can look at her expression. No, she didn`t scream because I took her right outside. It was at night when I did it.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

COUEY: I went out there one night and dug a hole and put her in it, buried her (INAUDIBLE) plastic bag, plastic baggies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she dead already?

COUEY: No, she was still alive. I buried her alive.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, in an extraordinary move in a Florida courtroom, the trial judge, Judge Rick Howard, has thrown out the entire jury panel.

To Jean Casarez there at the courthouse. Jean, how many people left the courthouse today?

CASAREZ: I`m sorry. I didn`t hear you. Can you repeat that?

GRACE: Yes. How many jurors left the courthouse today?

CASAREZ: I`m sorry. There`s a lot -- there are a lot of storms in Florida right now. One more time. I`ll try to get it.

GRACE: OK, one more time. Jean, do you know how many jurors were thrown out of the courthouse today?

CASAREZ: Today, there were 58 jurors at the courthouse. That was the final panel that the final jury was to be selected from. And when we went down to 48 jurors, and then the judge said, Are there any additional hardships we need to talk about -- and I would say half of the room raised their hand -- that was also a turning point, when this judge then asked to go into chambers with the attorneys, came back out and said, The defense has been making a motion all week for a change of venue, that a jury cannot be had here in central Florida. I would have to, at this point, agree with him.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at the map, Rosie. I don`t know really, Eben Brown -- Eben`s with us from Newsradio 970 -- what alternative the court has. Now, here`s a look at the Florida map. There on the right upper at 1:00 o`clock, you`ve got Tavares -- Tavares, the city of Tavares, Lake County. You`ve got highly populated Miami-Dade County at the bottom. Homosassa over to the left, about 66 miles from Tavares, is where Jessie was killed. Then you`ve got the Panhandle bordering on the Alabama, Georgia, Florida -- Georgia border there at Panama City, Destin, Grayton (ph) Beach, and so forth.

Eben Brown, what`s the alternative? What do we do next?

EBEN BROWN, NEWSRADIO 970: Well, it depends on what type of jury pool you want. If you go to an urban area like Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, you`re going to have a different -- you`re going to have more of a diverse ethnic makeup. You`re going to have a different economic stratus. If you...

GRACE: Well, none of that should matter, though, right, Doug Burns? I mean, Eben is correct -- Eben Brown with 970. But Doug, under the Constitution, the social strata or inner city, rural doesn`t really matter.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly. But I agree with Judge Kerson, which is that, ironically, in big cities, a case like this, as unbelievably horrific as it is, doesn`t stand out quite as much as it does in a small town. So you`re better off in a big city for that reason, not for the reasons, like you said, of socioeconomics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER: What time of night did you bury her?

COUEY: Four o`clock, 2:00 in the morning, I don`t remember.

OFFICER: Did you dig the hole first?

COUEY: Yes, I dug the hole first.

OFFICER: And then you brought her out there, put her in the hole?

COUEY: It ain`t a very deep hole.

OFFICER: And she was alive when you buried her? You buried her alive?

COUEY: Yes, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, in an extraordinary legal move, a Florida trial judge throws out an entire jury panel in a death penalty case. Of course, we`re talking about the case of John Evander Couey and the murder of 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford.

Back to Eben Brown, do you agree with Jean Casarez, Eben, that, when all those jurors suddenly all raised their hand, said they had a concern -- you know, we`re days into it -- was that the final straw that broke the camel`s back and the judge just threw them all out?

BROWN: It could have been. They`ve been trying to find a jury where no one has heard anything about this case. And because of the media attention that it`s gotten, that`s really going to be hard to do. This case has been on statewide media, national media, newspapers, television, radio. It`s really hard to find a group of people from a certain area of the state that haven`t heard about John Couey or Jessie Lunsford.

GRACE: Well, this is what I don`t understand, and I`ll throw this one back to Alan Ripka. Alan, you get a jury in the O.J. Simpson case. You can get a jury in the Robert Blake case. You can get a jury in the Charles Manson case. But you can`t get a jury in the John Evander Couey case?

RIPKA: Well, the test isn`t whether or not a juror has heard about the case; this test is whether or not a juror can be fair and impartial in a case.

And in my opinion, I don`t know, you know, why the judge dropped this panel so quickly before he questioned each and every one of those people and indicated, "Can you be fair and impartial, even though you heard about the case?" And that`s really the test, Nancy.

GRACE: I think you`re right.

And to Jean Casarez, were these jurors individually, Jeannie, being rehabilitated? And I`m using a legal term that we use in jury selection, voir dire, coincidentally to speak the truth.

When you get a juror that says, "Yes, I`ve heard of the case," Alan Ripka is correct. That`s not the end of the questioning. You don`t just throw the juror out in the trash. You say, "Well, OK, you may have heard of the case, but can you be fair and impartial?"

We don`t want jurors that have come out from under a rock, Jean. I mean, was he following through with the questioning?

OK, she can`t hear me. Eben Brown, was he following through with the questioning?

BROWN: He was trying his best to see whether or not these jurors can be impartial. Part of that was, did they hear about this confession that was thrown out? Did they hear about his prior arrest record? Too many people have heard too much about John Couey, and he didn`t want to take a risk with this. He didn`t want to take the chance.

Part of the reason of finding this perfect jury, if you will, is so that there`s no appeal issue later on. They`ve stated this over and over again. So I think they`re just being very meticulous in finding a jury that no one will be able to question any time in the future.

GRACE: So, Eben, and the answer is, yes, once a juror would say, "I`ve heard of the case," they would follow through with, "Can you be pair an impartial or not?"

BROWN: Some people were asked. Some people were -- if they just heard about -- if they came out and said they heard about the confession, they were asked to leave.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the star chamber. Tonight with us, three veteran trial judges that have tried many cases similar to this one -- murder, rape, child molestation, you name it.

Out to Gino Brogdon. Gino, no offense to the judge, but I don`t care how frustrated he may be. Bring in another panel of 58 and keep bringing them in until you get jurors that say, under oath, "Yes, I`ve heard of the case, but I can be impartial. I haven`t heard the evidence yet," Gino.

BROGDON: Absolutely, Nancy. The judge has to be in it for the long haul. It`s real important that this case be tried in this county.

And you don`t go through 48 or 50 or even 80 people and give up. And you don`t throw them out before you question them. In a case that I had handled, I went through 100 people individually to ask each of them whether they could follow the law and whether they could be fair. That`s what the judge has to do.

GRACE: You went through 100 individual?

BROGDON: I sure did.

GRACE: Whoa! You`d have to take me out on a stretcher on that one, Gino.

What he means by that is, when you do jury selection, you can do general questioning to the entire panel, 58 to 200 jurors at once. Then, say a few of them have an issue they need to bring up, you question them individually.

In this case -- it`s a death penalty case -- they are being questioned individually from the get-go.

Let`s go out to Congressman Judge Ted Poe, also on our star chamber tonight. Judge Poe, how many jurors have you had to question to get a jury in the past?

POE: In a death penalty case, we do exactly that in Texas. We question the jurors as a group, and then we talk to them individually. And it`s not uncommon in a death penalty case to go to 100 jurors before you find 12 that are qualified.

So the judge should have kept talking to more jurors. And now the issue comes up -- everybody in the state of Florida is going to know the case was thrown out because the jury couldn`t be selected, and it will be moved somewhere else. And that becomes another publicity problem that new jurors have to face.

GRACE: And to our third judge on the star panel tonight, Paul Kerson out of Ardsley, New York. Paul, what case did you question the most jurors to get a jury of 12?

KERSON: Oh, I had similar cases to this one as a defense attorney, where there was a horrible murder and someone was buried in a park.

GRACE: How many?

KERSON: Several hundred. And the reason is, the defense gets 25 challenges in New York and the prosecution gets 25 challenges, what are called peremptory challenges.

GRACE: You know, that`s a good point.

What about it, Jean Casarez, how many strikes does either side get in Florida?

CASAREZ: Either side had 10, so there would have been 12 on the jury, plus four alternates. That`s 16. Plus 10 strikes for one side would make it 26. Plus 10 more would be 36.

And then you need some jurors to play with, right, for those for cause challenges. And at the end of the day before dismissal, there were 48. So that would have been, 12, 13 left for any for cause challenges.

GRACE: Exactly.

Now, was anybody objecting, that you know of, Jean? You`ve got potential threats on the jury. I know the defense wanted jurisdiction moved. They probably wanted it in a bigger jurisdiction like Miami. Did the state oppose moving the venue again?

CASAREZ: No, they did not. They did not oppose it. I think they were very saddened, because they were all ready for a trial to begin. Their witnesses are in order. The evidence is there. But they did not, because I believe, in the last four days, there have been so many problems -- although there was that pool today of 58 that went to 48...

GRACE: Got you.

CASAREZ: ... there have been a lot of problems. And I think the prosecution realized it should also be changed.

GRACE: Another problem, to our medical examiner tonight, Dr. Daniel Spitz, is a lot of jurors did not think that they could peruse or consider the crime scene photos, crime scene photos of this child. Now, we know that Jessie Lunsford was buried alive. What will you expect the evidence to be?

DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the evidence would be difficult for any juror to hear but, unfortunately, that`s the evidence in the case. And I think the fact that the body is decomposed because it wasn`t found for three weeks would be very difficult for some people.

But the evidence that really indicates that she was alive and would be most difficult to hear is the fact that her fingers were actually poked through the plastic bag, which really does indicate that she was alive when she went into that plastic bag and was likely alive during the course of this burying process.

GRACE: Out to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, Bethany, a couple of questions for you. If you take a look at the map of Florida, there are, I think, close to 40,000 registered sex offenders there.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: That`s right.

GRACE: Why? Why such a concentrated number of registered sex offenders in Florida? I mean, it`s a paradise.

MARSHALL: And 5,912 violent predators, so really some serious offenders here.

Really to understand this you have to look into the mind of a pedophile. The pedophile thinks about children 24/7, 365 days a year. And that`s all he wants to do, is be around children.

And he`ll do it in one of three ways: in an isolated environment, like on the Internet; in an institution, such as a church and school, where he can be near families; or he`ll do it by being in a place where there`s warm weather, and families are out and about, and he can go be in parks and amusement parks, and be really where he can be near families, and befriend them, and befriend children.

GRACE: So Florida is the perfect place?

MARSHALL: It`s the perfect place.

GRACE: It`s a warm climate, the children are outdoors. You have the amusement parks like Disney and many, many others, Busch Gardens, all of that down in Florida.

Another question I`ve been meaning to ask you, Bethany, is the mode of death in this case. Oh, yes, weather, job availability, diversity, varying locales all add to the number of sex offenders in Florida. Bethany, this child was buried in garbage bags.

MARSHALL: Yes.

GRACE: There`s got to be a Freudian connection to that.

MARSHALL: Well, she was no more valuable to him than yesterday`s garbage. I mean, he discarded her like that tissue you blow your nose in, and you throw it in the trash, and it bothers you, and you throw it outside. She had no value.

And that`s because psychopaths have a really shallow emotional life. They don`t form connections. And so they use extreme cruelty to enhance their sexual arousal, and that`s all they really care about.

GRACE: Thirty seconds left, Jean Casarez, what do we do now? Where do we go next?

CASAREZ: Well, they`re going to pick up a telephone. They`re going to look around this state to find a courtroom that has about a month of availability, court personnel a month of availability, bailiffs and security. And once that happens, then we will have this venue changed.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All I care about is that she has left behind two children, one who is very small, who will never know her mother. I want the best for him and for her other son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a really great way of making you laugh. Everything I can remember from her was -- from a kid, you know, even today, she always made me smile. She had a certain chuckle after she`d say something, you know, to kind of keep you going. She wanted nothing but the best for everyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today the funeral for a Texas beauty, a mother of two, Sara Anne Walker. She`s absolutely gorgeous. Did she unwittingly reach out to her own killer on upscale dating Web sites?

Let`s go out to Lance Liguez, reporter with WBAP Radio 820. Lance, bring us up to date.

LANCE LIGUEZ, REPORTER, WBAP RADIO: Well, today, Nancy, police got together all the physical evidence they`ve collected from the murder scene, the model home where Sarah Anne Walker was killed on Saturday, taken all that evidence, packaged it up, and sent it off to a forensic lab, with the hope that they can glean some sort of clue as to who might have committed this crime.

GRACE: We got in touch with D.R. Horton. D.R. Horton, in charge of the model home where this young lady went. There you go. Thanks, Rosie.

This is what they had to say. First of all, we asked, "Were you negligent?" And we`re talking about letting her go unescorted, apparently no security, to a model home in a fairly secluded but upscale residential area. The answer, "This is an inappropriate question. We`ve been fully cooperative and transparent since this tragedy began and have taken a number of steps to assist the family in their time of need."

In fact, they have put up the reward in this case. It`s about $30,000, along with other people. "D.R. Horton remains committed to providing employees with safe, secure work environments. We`re reviewing existing policies and procedures to take additional measures."

Question: We`ve heard there`s a promo video. Can we get a copy? "Out of respect for Sarah and her family, we feel it would be inappropriate to distribute the video." As you know, there was a video of the model home.

Which of the floor plans was similar to this one where she was murdered? They basically said that there are multiple options.

This is a shot of Sarah Walker, who was killed in a model home that she was apparently showing.

To Jeff Domen, Sarah Walker`s divorce attorney, by all accounts, it was an amicable divorce. In fact, no offense, Jeff, they apparently didn`t need a lawyer. They kind of worked everything out, and then you steered them through the legalities of the divorce.

So there was no animosity between the two of them. Typically, you look at boyfriend, ex-husband first. That doesn`t appear to be the remotest possibility in this case. Tell me about her being in that model home, Jeff.

JEFF DOMEN, SARAH WALKER`S DIVORCE ATTORNEY: Well, as far as my representation of Sarah during the whole divorce, what you said is correct, Nancy. I assisted them when they had issues that came up. But predominantly they came to me with an agreement and said, "We want you to finalize this agreement for us."

GRACE: So no animosity there?

DOMEN: That`s correct. And as far as what happened at the model home, because the parties were so amicable when they went through the divorce, I didn`t have to get involved much in Sarah`s work life, and the background, and, you know, the issues surrounding her and her husband or their son, because the parties worked everything out on their own.

GRACE: Well, apparently, Lance Liguez with WPAB Radio, she was a very high earner. She was a great worker. Everybody loved her. She had a bubbly personality.

Do you know the circumstances, Lance, surrounding her being in this model home? Was there any security? Was there an alarm? I hear today the update is there was a panic button -- Lance?

LIGUEZ: ... at home. But, you know, real estate agents typically work by themselves when they`re showing homes and doing open houses. This is not something that is out of the ordinary.

And that`s one of the things that Sarah Walker`s godfather mentioned today at the funeral, saying, "If there`s any silver lining in this, this story is focusing some attention to real estate agents, especially women, who work these long hours by themselves."

GRACE: Hey, Lance, another question. She was there alone. Was it like an open house that anybody could come into? Had it been publicized? Or did she have a series of appointments lined up in the model home?

LIGUEZ: My knowledge of that is that this was a model home that was open to the public, and that`s how her body was found on Saturday. A couple came in the house seeking some information about the home, and they found her.

GRACE: And they found her.

And question: Describe the community for me. I understand they advertised they`re near a golf course, that there are a lot of fancy boutiques and art galleries there. It sounds pretty pricey.

LIGUEZ: Well, these are brand-new homes that are springing up in the city of McKinney. McKinney is a fast-growing area, as are the other cities around there in Collin County. And this is typical of what you`re seeing, brand-new houses, big houses popping, you know, in what used to be countryside.

GRACE: To Dr. Daniel Spitz, our medical examiner tonight, Dr. Spitz, we know that the model home was combed for DNA, and that was handed over today in this case. What do you expect there to be?

SPITZ: Well, you know, the evidence in this case indicates that this woman sustained stab wounds and blunt trauma and that she put up what appears to be a pretty valiant struggle and fought off her attacker. She has injuries.

So this is an intimate act. There`s going to be contact between her and her attacker. And let`s hope there is some DNA under her fingernails which can be linked back to the suspect in this case.

GRACE: Yes, the kicker with that is you`ve got to have something to compare it to. We`ll be back with our legal panel and psychotherapist when we get back. Yes, she fought. She had a 3-year-old and a 15-month-old to fight for.

To tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement on the lookout for Perry Lynn Reno in connection with the `99 armed robbery of Locust Fork, Alabama, bank.

Reno, 43, 5`8", 165 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. If you have info, call FBI, 205-326-6166.

Local news next for some of you. We`ll be right back. Wisconsin cop on trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: ... want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 7-month-old Elijah Archuleta, killed November 23, 2002. What a little angel! Tucson, Arizona. If you have info, call Carole Sund Carrington toll-free, 888-813-8389.

Back to Texas. Today, the funeral for a Texas beauty found killed in a model home that she was showing.

Very quickly, Lance Liguez with Radio 820, how much did those homes go for?

LIGUEZ: Well, these are pretty big homes. They can go anywhere from, on the low end, $200,000, all the way up...

GRACE: Up to?

LIGUEZ: Up to -- my information is...

GRACE: Just a number, Lance, a number!

(CROSSTALK)

LIGUEZ: I`m sorry?

GRACE: A number. Give me a number!

LIGUEZ: About $500,000.

GRACE: Ow! Whoa, I`ll have to get a second job.

You know, interesting, to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, very upscale neighborhood. If you take a look at the footage, fancy cars parked everywhere. Really nice landscaping. You had to have a big W-2 to pay for a home there.

What do you make of her being in a place like this, very low crime rate, and this type of a heinous crime occurring?

MARSHALL: Well, what I really thought about is it doesn`t matter how rich or how poor you are, you could still be a stalker. And perhaps with having gone through a divorce, dating online, being hopeful for a new relationship, she unwittingly met somebody who developed a fantasy that she loved him and became delusional.

And when she did not return his love, he went to punish her in a very heinous or horrible way. Or someone coming through the community wanted to commit a sexual homicide. I think that`s the second possibility.

And with sexual homicides, of course, as I said earlier, with John Evander Couey, often extreme cruelty is used to enhance the person`s sexual arousal. But these things are often independent of money and material wealth; they have to do with poor mental health.

GRACE: Thank you to all of my guests on this story.

Let`s stop for just a moment to remember tonight Army Private First Class Robert J. Settle, just 25, killed, Iraq, from Owensboro, Kentucky. He leaves behind a family, including a 5-year-old little girl. Robert J. Settle, American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you to you. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Good night, friend.

END