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Your World Today
Israeli Missiles Strike Port City of Tyre; Diplomatic Efforts to End Fighting; Lebanese Prime Minister Addresses His Nation; Tony Snow Briefs Press
Aired July 19, 2006 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Pounding Lebanon. The Israeli military reduces large swathes of Beirut to rubble. Dozens are dead, many, many are wounded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I ask everybody to stop the war. Please, stop the war. Please, stop the war. We have enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RALITSA VASSILEVA, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Begging for calm. Running for cover. Thousand hit the exists as the exodus from Lebanon picks up steam.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tell you, Ehud Olmert, we will not surrender. We will not surrender. We will not surrender.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Open defiance in the streets of southern Lebanon, Hezbollah territory. And we'll take you on a guided tour of the stronghold.
All right. Hello and welcome.
I'm Michael Holmes.
VASSILEVA: And I'm Ralitsa Vassileva.
FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Fionnuala Sweeney in Jerusalem.
Coming up, diplomatic niceties come crashing into the reality on the ground as more rockets continue to fall here in Israel. Later I'll be speaking to an Israeli cabinet security official about where the Israeli offensive goes from here.
HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Hala Gorani, in the Syrian capital, Damascus. The story here not just political, but humanitarian, as hundreds and thousands of refugees stream through the boarder. Later in this program I'll be talking to one Lebanese- American woman and she'll be talking about her harrowing journey out of Lebanon.
HOLMES: Well, for the powers that be, it is a battle of wills, determination and, of course, fire power.
VASSILEVA: But for the civilians in the war zone, it is one of escape, survival and little hope.
HOLMES: That's right. It is day eight of Israel's offensive against Hezbollah, and the two have been locked in a fierce firefight along the Lebanese-Israeli border in the last few hours, where Israel has launched a limited ground operation. It says two of its soldiers have been killed so far in this latest fighting.
VASSILEVA: Israeli air raids and Hezbollah rockets attacks also continue unabated. One of the latest rockets killed three civilians in the town of Nazareth, bringing the Israeli death toll to 30. More than 210 Lebanese have died since the start of these hostilities.
HOLMES: The vast majority of those civilians.
Humanitarian relief efforts still focus on getting thousands of foreign nationals out of Lebanese. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians remain destitute, without help, many fleeing for their lives.
VASSILEVA: So far there is little hope of a respite or a quick cease-fire. Israel's foreign minister Wednesday reinforced their commitment to a military approach, saying that they believe it will help pave the way for diplomacy.
HOLMES: All right. CNN reporters are monitoring developments right across the region.
VASSILEVA: We've got a team in Cyprus, which is the first stop for many evacuees as they leave Lebanon, in Lebanon, which is being pounded by Israeli airstrikes as well.
HOLMES: And in Syria, the scene of diplomatic pressure. Of course, also in Israel, where those Hezbollah rockets keep on falling.
First, however, let's go to Lebanon, the port city of Tyre. That's where Hezbollah enjoys popular support and civilians are getting caught up in Israel's war on the militant group.
Karl Penhaul has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): We take detours along dirt tracks to avoid bombed-out sections of the coastal highway. Most of the traffic is leaving the southern port city of Tyre, escaping the constant bombardment from Israel, less than 10 miles away.
This poster of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah looms large at the approach to the city. Another billboard adorned with Hezbollah militia fighters reads, "We stay and fight."
A Lebanese army soldier emerges from a side street and points out an underground parking lot that's now an improvised bomb shelter for a handful of Tyre's frightened residents.
"All this for two Israeli rats," this woman says, referring to a week of bombing raids by Israeli jets after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers.
Mohammed Sweyel says he and eight family members evacuated their home near Lebanon's border with Israel. He says he admires Hezbollah's grit.
MOHAMMED SWEYEL, LEBANESE RESIDENT: See, every member in Lebanon needs Hezbollah. Every member. Every member. But we need peace -- we need, of course, peace for this -- for this country, but not over our dignity.
PENHAUL: Residents says Tyre was pounded by Israel for most of Tuesday.
(on camera): This is Tyre's Al Afar (ph) neighborhood. It was here residents say that about 4:00 p.m. on Sunday, Israeli warplanes struck these buildings.
(voice over): An apartment block wrecked, cars crushed.
It's here I find Dr. Abdul Hussein Shafar picking his way through the rubble. He tells me at least 22 people were killed and 15 others wounded. He says all were civilians.
ABDUL HUSSEIN SHAFAR, LEBANESE DOCTOR: There's no military, no position for Hezbollah or any other party.
PENHAUL: As we speak, an Israeli jet buzzes over and unleashes another bomb in the distance.
SHAFAR: It's good.
PENHAUL: We heard seven explosions in our first five hours here.
A few yards from his home, 150 United Nations soldiers arrived a few hours ago to guard a resort hotel. It's become a refuge center for around 300 civilians hoping to be evacuated.
Talfik Kanan (ph) and his family have suffered days of fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They've destroyed complete families, children. They don't allow people to take them out of the ruins.
PENHAUL: As dusk falls, French army major Eric Manoli (ph) gives fresh orders to the United Nations contingent he commands. He's sickened of what he's seen over the last few days.
"The people are clearly terrorized. Many Lebanese are fleeing north. As a Frenchman and as a United Nations soldier, I hope the diplomats work out a cease-fire," he says.
Tonight Manoli (ph) and his men will do their best to protect civilians desperate for sanctuary. Tomorrow his challenge will be to shuttle them out of range with the heaviest fighting.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, Tyre, Lebanon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VASSILEVA: Fierce gun battles between Israeli soldiers and Hezbollah guerillas erupted on the border. The Israeli military says two Israeli soldiers were killed in the fighting. Nine others were wounded.
Paula Newton joins us now live via broadband from northern Israel near the border with Lebanon.
Paula, are there military operations going on around you?
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There certainly are. We're over at an artillery field right here. We've been here for most of the day. And it has been a busy day here. Continual volleys going into southern Israel, with more and more targets.
The problem here, Ralitsa, is that it hasn't seemed to have done anything to stop the Katyusha rockets landing in Israel. We had one go over our left shoulder over here, about approximately seven to eight kilometers away.
It hasn't done any damage. But the bulls eye right now is the artillery field behind me. Those Katyushas are not very accurate, but Hezbollah has been very determined today, and they have done, as you pointed out, some damage and killed civilians here in northern Israel, still.
The problem, Ralitsa, still, 130 volleys today. Sorry, of Katyusha rockets in northern Israel. And the day isn't over yet.
They normally try and cease the Katyusha rockets at nightfall because it is easier for them to be detected at night. And so they normally try to do most of their activity during the day. But as we said, Ralitsa, one of the busiest days for targeting in northern Israel, and still the day isn't over.
Here on the field, they say that of course they believe that they wiped out maybe possibly half of Hezbollah's capability in terms of short and long-range missiles and rockets and those launches. The problem is, Ralitsa, as they say it to us, is that those Hezbollah guerrillas are now mounting into civilian areas and doing most of the launching from there.
Ralitsa, one of the commanders here in Israel has said today that despite the hard-fought battle here along this border, which is getting more tense by the hour, Israel will continue with this military assault.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. GAL HIRSCH, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: The directive is dismantle, attack, destroy the abilities of Hezbollah, and clear the threat from the Israeli citizens. We cannot fail. We don't have any other choice. We cannot live under this umbrella of terror missiles, and we will attack, and attack, and fight for our lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Those are certainly fighting words from that commander, and that is more and more of what you're hearing on the ground. But there have been skirmishes. And as I said, every hour here, Ralitsa, it seems to get more dangerous, not just for the soldiers, but for the civilians still left in northern Israel -- Ralitsa.
VASSILEVA: Paula Newton at the Israeli-Lebanon border.
Thank you very much -- Michael.
HOLMES: Meanwhile, diplomatic efforts to end the fighting continue. Very unsuccessfully, it must be said. The French prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, is in Beirut, while the European Union security chief met with Israeli officials in Jerusalem today.
Let's go there, to Jerusalem. Our Fionnuala Sweeney is there, joins us now live.
There seems to be a sense in many parts of the world, Fionnuala, that the U.S. is staying out of diplomacy for the moment, pretty much to give Israel a free rein.
SWEENEY: Well, that is indeed one perception. It would appear that Condoleezza Rice, the U.S. secretary of state, is due to travel to the region. She's already said that. But what she said in a news conference yesterday, Michael, was that she would only go if there was some sustainable progress on the ground.
The thinking with Israel and the thinking at the U.S. State Department seems to be that this fighting will continue, and then there will be a cease-fire, a negotiated cease-fire. And one of the reasons why the Israelis are so adamant that a negotiated cease-fire will take place on their terms is because when Paula Newton mentions the 130 Katyusha rockets going into northern Israel, one of those rockets about two hours ago landed in Nazareth, which is quite far south.
It's an Israeli-Arab city, mainly, a Christian city. And two people were killed -- two children were killed, ages 3 and 9. They were playing in the garden of their house when this rocket hit. And also, 12 people were slightly wounded.
So, Israel is adamant that there has to be a negotiated cease- fire. What it wants to see is the adoption of a resolution that's already been passed two years ago at the United Nations. It is called Resolution 1559, and it calls on the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah and other militia in southern Lebanon and to send the Lebanese army down there.
As you mentioned, the EU foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, was in Jerusalem this morning. He had a meeting with Amir Peretz, the defense minister, and also Tzipi Livni, who is the foreign minister. And afterwards, there was a news conference at which Tzipi Livni was asked about whether Israel's use of force in Lebanon was disproportionate in response to the kidnapping of two soldiers and the killing of three.
This was her response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TZIPI LIVNI, : It's important to understand that the proportionality of action is not -- it's against a threat. And it's not an answer to a complete situation on the ground. And the fact is that Israel was targeted from Lebanon. The attack was an unprovoked attack on Israel.
But the answer that we are giving is to give an answer to the threat. And Hezbollah and Nasrallah are threats to the region. Not only to Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SWEENEY: This is the line from the Israeli government. You hear it again and again from foreign ministry spokesmen, from defense ministers, from ministers we're due to hear from later in this program, that this was not just a response to an attack last week along the border, this is a response to a threat that affects not just Israel, but the entire region.
It should also be said, Michael, before I leave you that there has also been trouble in Gaza, which has been overshadowed so much by the news in the north in recent days. There have been six people killed, six Palestinians killed in an Israeli offensive into Darabala (ph), a refugee camp in northern Gaza. And there is something like 56 injured, 20 in critical condition.
And that brings the total number of people killed in Gaza in the last 13 days to 106.
Elsewhere, in Nablus, in the West Bank, the Israeli military very active there, too, arresting 150 men who are said to be members of the security services.
So, while the fight continues, the diplomatic talks are also under way -- Michael.
HOLMES: Fionnuala, when we -- when we talk about talks -- and there's going to be a lot more talk about talks -- do you ever hear them coming back to this suggestion of a prisoner exchange. At the very beginning of all of this, that's what was suggested. It has happened before. Is there a sense there that they're going to end up there again? SWEENEY: That is what Israel is saying. Israel is saying that there has to be an unconditional release of the kidnapped soldiers, Gilad Shalit in Gaza, and also the two kidnapped soldiers along the border last week, that that is a must and that is unconditional.
However, when you talk to other analysts and commentators here in Israel, they say deals have been done before over prisoner exchanges and there will be deals done again. Israel says it's talking to Lebanon but obviously doesn't have direct relations with Lebanon. And it's questionable as to how much the Lebanese prime minister can do.
But the prisoner exchange first and foremost on Israeli minds -- Michael.
HOLMES: All right. Let's bring in Hala Gorani now. Hala is standing by in Damascus, joins us on this discussion.
Hala, you've been talking to people who have been fleeing from Lebanon. What are they telling you about what's going on there? And who are they blaming for all of this?
GORANI: It's interesting, Michael, because they're really blaming all sides, in many cases. And sometimes they even blame Arab governments for being silent in all of this. In their opinion, they're not doing enough and not saying enough to solve this crisis.
Some people tell me that they do blame Israel, but others also say, and especially among the Christian Lebanese who stream through the Syrian border and who I've had an opportunity to speak with, they say, "Look, it's important that the world know that we do not support Hezbollah. We don't support anyone."
"This is our country, our country is being bombed. Our infrastructure is being destroyed. This economy we worked so hard to rebuild after the civil war that ended some 15 years ago is being destroyed. We're going back in time."
A Lebanese woman I saw in the hotel hallway yesterday told me, "Our country is being used as a battleground by other countries" -- Michael.
HOLMES: Hala, thanks very much. Hala Gorani there in Syria.
And Fionnuala Sweeney -- thanks to you, Fionnuala -- in Jerusalem.
VASSILEVA: Well, as YOUR WORLD TODAY continues, we will focus on those feelings inside and outside of Lebanon. The U.N. estimates a half a million Lebanese have been displaced.
HOLMES: And trying to leave.
Also, Israel continues operations in Gaza and the West Bank against Palestinians and Hamas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VASSILEVA: We're going to take you now live to Beirut, where the Lebanese prime minister, Fouad Siniora, is addressing his nation.
Let's listen in.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
FOUAD SINIORA, LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER (through translator): ... forces were totally destroyed. The situation reached to the point of desperation. The massacres and destruction still continuing.
The country has been torn to shreds as the value of a human life is lesser than the value of people of other countries. With the Israel -- would you allow Israel to bomb churches, mosques, orphanages, and medical supplies, shelters? And do you accept the responsibility of this savage war machine?
Is this self-defense? Was this self-defense? Was this the price?
Our goal is to build our civil institutions and to build a country of diversity. Only last year the Lebanese went to the streets, carrying their banners and calling that Lebanon deserves life.
I will tell you what kind of life we deserve today. It is a life of destruction, displacement, disposition. What kind of future that we can stem from this?
Let me assure you that (INAUDIBLE) knowing fully well that human life (INAUDIBLE).
You want to support the government of Lebanon? You really want to support the government of Lebanon?
Ladies and gentlemen, no government can survive (INAUDIBLE). No government this destruction.
In the name of people of Lebanon, from Beirut to (INAUDIBLE), to each and every one of the 21 villages and suburbs in the south that Israel -- that might enter in other cities -- and I call upon you all to listen and to agree without hesitation or reservation to reach an immediate cease-fire and provide urgent international humanitarian assistance.
And I would like to thank the international community and other international organizations and the friend (ph) countries who have helped Lebanon so far. And I would like to thank those preparing to help.
However, the war machine is still killing more and destroying more. And without any hesitation, they are continuing.
Your excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, we Lebanese want life. We have chosen life. We reject death.
We have survived wars and destruction. And we will do that again.
And I hope that you will not leave us alone at this time.
(APPLAUSE)
VASSILEVA: We just heard from Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, with very, very strong words of condemnation of Israel's response of the kidnapping -- to the kidnapping of two of its soldiers and Katyusha rockets that have been launched by Hezbollah. Hezbollah having several seats in the government.
The prime minister basically saying that a savage war machine is killing and destroying his country. He criticized also, it seems like, the international community, saying, "The value of human life seems to be lesser than the value of human life in other nations."
Also criticizing Israel's claim that this is in self-defense, saying, "Is this self-defense -- is the price that Lebanon needs to pay?"
We'll continue to monitor developments out of Beirut. We'll continue our coverage.
Michael, over to you.
HOLMES: All right.
Well, over bombed roads and shattered bridges, much of what the prime minister was talking about there, the exodus from Lebanon, is gathering pace.
A British ship docked in Cyprus and then sailed back to Beirut to pick up more if the thousands still stranded there. About a thousand Americans sailed Wednesday from Beirut aboard a cruise ship bound for Cyprus.
The U.S. Embassy says 200 more will leave by sea or air on Wednesday. And also, an estimated 5,000 to 8,000 will be evacuated by the end of the week. But, it's important to note some who are still waiting to get out are expressing plenty of frustration.
We've been following the story of the Esseily family, Americans stranded in Lebanon and asking the government to help them leave the country. Monika Esseily spoke with us a short time ago to update us on the family's efforts to get out of Lebanon.
(BEGIN CLIP)
MONIKA ESSEILY, U.S. TOURIST STRANDED IN LEBANON: It has been a battle, but not just for me, for many, many other foreigners and Americans here, too. I decided to make a decision, and without a phone call from the American Embassy in Beirut, I packed up the whole car, had a family member drive us down to a location where CNN and other sources are telling us where Americans are trying to get out, and I'm finding total chaos.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VASSILEVA: Well, according to U.N. estimates, the fighting has driven half a million people from their homes, triggering a mass humanitarian crisis.
For more on the effect of that influx evacuees is having on Syria's capital city of Damascus, where a lot of them are going, I'm joined via broadband by Hala Gorani.
Hala, tell us about what they're telling you.
GORANI: Ralitsa, those people you see in Cyprus are, relatively speaking, the lucky ones. There are thousands of people who don't have enough money to make it much further than right across the border in Syria.
Our Aneesh Raman is at a sports stadium. He joins us now also via broadband with more on what he's seeing and some of these refugees he's been able to speak to.
Aneesh, what are they telling you?
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, for many, this is the only way out, across that border where I was just a few hours ago, a scene of utter chaos, a backlog of cars, people walking their way in, thousands upon thousands -- over 100,000 Lebanese already have made their way to Syria.
At the moment, they are coming here to the Al Jalal (ph) stadium in Damascus. It is a sports complex where Syrian families come. It is now a refugee camp of sorts. Lebanese families coming here to get food, to get water, to get medicine, things they have not had for hours, if not days.
We traveled here from the border with a family of 11. I'm just going to have our cameraman, Thomas (ph), pan over. They're sitting here.
We traveled with these three of them -- we traveled with 11 of them. The eldest is a 65-year-old grandmother. She is the mother of what is the youngest, a 3-year-old daughter.
They detailed horrific stories that are taking place of destruction in southern Lebanon. People left under the rubble. Aid trucks, food trucks that are inadvertently being bombed, carcasses all around. And they are asking, where is the world outcry for what is happening there? Where is the world's response?
They have come here to Damascus try and find some semblance of normal. They're going to be put in Syrian homes, and hotels as well. But for many of them, they have simply no idea what is going to come next.
The 65-year-old grandmother, we traveled with here. She broke down, cried in front of me, held up a Lebanese bill, about 50 U.S. cents. That is all that they've got, and three bags. And they're coming here. They don't know where they're going to sleep tonight. They're hoping to get a home. Otherwise, they're in the gym that's on the other side of here for what could be days.
And they are just part of thousands, Hala, that are making their way here, angry that the world, they say, does not care -- Hala.
GORANI: Aneesh, the more this conflict goes on, the more the flow of refugees will increase. What are Syrian people telling you about how many more of these refugees they can absorb before it starts becoming a problem here on this side of the border?
RAMAN: Well, they simply don't know at the moment.
Officials I've spoken to here at this situation, one of a number of stadiums, just say the people keep coming. They are doing what they can at the moment.
People are spending on average a couple of hours, maybe half a day in the gym. And they're able to find them hotels and families. But that is starting to overflow.
Their main office, the NGOs that are placing them, they have to stay there for the night now. And they don't know whether they'll be able to handle what could come in the next weeks or so, depending on how long these airstrikes continue.
Hundreds of thousands, up to 500,000, we're told, have crossed just at the main border crossing. There are two others to the north and south as well. We don't know the numbers that are coming in from there.
The scene there is chaotic, and here it's a little bit more relaxed. People know now that they're relatively safe. But this is where it starts to hit them, the uncertainty -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Aneesh Raman reporting there in Damascus on the flow of refugees. And many of those Lebanese and other nationalities coming into Syria not knowing at this point in time where they are spending the night tonight.
A bit later in the program, I'll be speaking to a Lebanese- American woman who is here with her family. She'll be telling me about her frightening journey out of Lebanon. Join us for that.
For now, though, Michael and Ralitsa, back to you.
HOLMES: Hala Gorani, thanks very much for that. Certainly some heart-rending stories coming out of Lebanon. And despite what Israel says is pinpoint attacks, there is certainly an enormous amount of civilian suffering in that country. More of our coverage of the fighting in the Middle East, straight ahead.
VASSILEVA: Beirut's southern suburbs are a Hezbollah stronghold, and have been struck repeatedly by Israeli missiles. Hezbollah officials took CNN on a tour of some of the damage before it was interrupted by warnings that more missiles are on the way.
HOLMES: We also go live to Jerusalem again. We're going to talk to the Israeli government official about the campaign against Hezbollah.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. Welcome back, everyone, to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Michael Holmes.
VASSILEVA: And I'm Ralitsa Vassileva. Here are some of the top stories we're following this hour.
Israeli police say a Hezbollah rocket has killed at least three people in the Israeli town of Nazareth. Meanwhile, Israeli troops and Hezbollah guerrillas clashed at the Lebanese territory. At least two Israeli soldiers were killed. Israel is keeping up its air strikes in Lebanon. More than 200 Lebanese have been killed over the past week, almost all of them civilians. Thirty Israelis are reported dead, 16 of them civilians.
HOLMES: Thousands displaced by the fighting flee to Beirut, even as thousands of foreigners are evacuated from the capital. And the United Nations says battles between Israeli and Hezbollah have resulted in a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon. It now estimates that a half million Lebanese have been driven from their homes, and there are shortages of food and medicine.
VASSILEVA: Diplomatic efforts continue to end the crisis. The European Union security chief met with Israeli officials, including Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, in Jerusalem. He called for an immediate solution to end to the violence in both Gaza and Lebanon, saying every day counts. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni says Israeli's military campaign will pave the way for diplomacy.
HOLMES: All right, as the battle continues from the air, Israel says the troops have also crossed into Lebanese territory to, they say, destroy Hezbollah outposts.
We'll going to get the latest now from Fionnuala Sweeney. She's standing by in Jerusalem. Fionnuala, what are you hearing?
SWEENEY: Well, we've been telling you, as I've heard Ralitsa mention there, about 130 rockets coming from southern Lebanon into Israel. One landed a couple of hours ago on the Arab-Israeli town of Nazareth, killing two children.
But we've also heard -- it was in the last few minutes -- that there's been an Israeli air strike, according to Palestinian security services, in a place called Agmangazi (ph) in Gaza. And there three people have died, two women and one man, bringing the death toll there today to nine people and 109 in the last two weeks.
Let me bring now in a man called Isaac Herzog. He is Israel's tourism minister and he's also a member of the Israeli security cabinet. Thank you very much for joining us. The security government met earlier today. What did it decide?
ISAAC HERZOG, ISRAELI SECURITY CABINET MEMBER: We decided, of course, to continue the operation with no limitation of time, in order to uproot totally the infrastructure of this terrorist organization, the Hezbollah, and to make it clear that everybody who's operating in the region that this mold, pattern of behavior, will not recur. It is impossible to accept it.
SWEENEY: No limit of time? So how long is this operation going to continue?
HERZOG: As long as is necessary. Of course, we all would like to end it quickly. We would like to see a solution quickly. But one thing needs...
SWEENEY: So why not (INAUDIBLE) a ceasefire now?
HERZOG: Because, well, I think the prime minister had an incredible speech in parliament two days ago. He laid out the contours of how it should be, the rules of the game from now on. Somebody needs to accept it, somebody needs to pursue it.
SWEENEY: OK, there's always two sides, though, in a conflict. And you may lay out your position, but there's obviously going to have to be a compromise at some point because we've got mediators involved, the U.N., the E.U. and the United States.
HERZOG: But the positions are very -- I mean, they're reasonable, and they're part of the G-8 decisions, as well. The G-8 countries have met. And actually, we've adopted the resolution, which makes a lot of sense, implementing Security Council Resolution 1559 and releasing the hostages.
SWEENEY: Ah, you mention Resolution 1559, that we know calls for the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah.
HERZOG: Right.
SWEENEY: They haven't. Or they either can't or they won't. And at the same time, you want to see the Lebanese army, or at least under that resolution, the Lebanese army be in that part of Lebanon. Would you be content to see the Lebanese army there? Would they be enough security for -- to calm Israel's nerves?
HERZOG: That's a very valid question. But first let's understand, we would like to pursue a climate whereby sovereign nations assume responsibility.
SWEENEY: So you're talking about an international mediation...
HERZOG: First of all -- it's first of all a Lebanese responsibility. Thereafter, any good idea, any...
KAGAN: I'm Daryn Kagan. We're going to break into our international coverage now to go to the White House. Here is White House spokesman, Tony Snow.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Because you cannot have a cease-fire that's unilateral. As you may have heard yesterday, Nasrallah was arguing that he was going to start issuing one-hour warnings to Tel Aviv before shelling the city.
If there were some way in which Hezbollah would verifiably stand down and would return the soldiers and stop firing rockets, then there might be an opportunity to do something.
SNOW: But at this point, there seems absolutely no willingness on the part of Hezbollah.
QUESTION: No contact with them at all?
SNOW: I'm not -- I am not aware that we do.
I think, as I mentioned as I mentioned, the key thing with regard to Hezbollah, is that it is operating with the backing of Iran and the support of Syria. And some of our allies certainly have been making their voices known, including our Arab friends, and have been encouraging both of those to go ahead and tell Hezbollah to back down.
QUESTION: Does the president, Tony, believe that this is as much the United States' war as it is Israel's war?
SNOW: No. What the president believes -- what's interesting about this, is that you've got a situation where Hezbollah, I think miscalculated. They thought they would be able to steal soldiers, they'd be able to get some P.R., they'd be able to sort of say, "Look at what we did."
And instead what they ended up doing was incurring the wrath, not only of Israel but of the entire region.
Again, if you take a look at it, the extraordinary statement by the Arab League, where the Saudis and the Jordanians -- the Arab League -- was condemning Hezbollah, and furthermore the G-8 condemning Hezbollah and its sponsors.
What you had was, I think, was a guerrilla incursion that has turned into just an absolute miscalculation on the part of the part of Hezbollah, because what it has done is it has forged, I think a sense of determination on all parties opposed to the activities of Hezbollah not to let it stand and also not to revert to the status quo ante where Hezbollah was operating in some ways as an occupying force in southern Lebanon, independent of the government and in some ways contemptuous of the government, using the people in southern Lebanon as human shields -- you know, a lot of Druze and Christians in that part of southern Lebanon -- and serving not only as an obstacle to having the Siniora government function in an independent and credible way, but in some ways as a threat to peace.
QUESTION: I don't think you really answered the part about: Why is this not our war? Why is this just Israel's... SNOW: Why would it be our war? It's not on our territory. This is a war in which the United States -- it's not even a war. What you have are hostilities at this point between Israel and Hezbollah. I would not characterize it as a war.
QUESTION: Well, it's interesting to hear you say that, because it seems that the president has been pretty outspoken about the fact that the United States champions democracy around the world. In fact, we push to make it happen by invading countries like Iraq.
By working to get Syria out of Lebanon, he described this as a moment of clarity where the Syrians had to be confronted -- like he told Blair to tell Annan the other day -- and that Iran should be isolated.
So I go back to the same question: Is this not a wider war for the United States that Israel is on the front line...
SNOW: OK, I think -- no, it's an interesting point. Let me go back and parse a couple of things.
The United States position is -- you're absolutely right -- to try to protect democracy and also those who are threats to the region to address it. What you have a is democracy in the Siniora government that we want to see survive and thrive.
To the extent that this is part of the war on terror, we certainly have an interest in it. But on the other hand, this is -- right now you have hostilities that are between the Israelis and Hezbollah, ad you have diplomatic activity that has been led by the United States.
And, by the way, 1559, the U.N. Security Council resolution, was also co-authorized by the French. This was a collaborative effort.
And 1559 not only said that foreign occupying powers had to get out but also militias and other independent organizations had to shut down. So that certainly was not an act of American unilateralism.
But what you do see -- and I'm glad you raised this -- because it's important to stress again, what you do see is the emergency now of international, in effect, working groups that are dealing with these problems. You have continued progress in the United Nations in terms of putting together a resolution on Iran. You have continued progress where I guarantee there's a lot of diplomatic activity going on now but with the United States and all the people in the neighborhood, as well as the interested parties, including the G-8.
And so to the extent -- it's certainly in America's interests that two things happen: Number one, that terrorism and terrorists be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're not going to win. And the second thing is to create the basis if a durable peace.
QUESTION: Just one final one on this: Why shouldn't the president be the one to mount some aggressive diplomacy, pick up the phone, call Assad of Syria and say, "Put an end to this," and start negotiating directly with Syria?
SNOW: Because the track record stinks. I don't know if you remember all the old pictures of diplomats in Reagan years, going -- in the Carter, Reagan, and maybe even the early Bush years, the first Bush administration -- who knows, Clinton may have done it, too -- sitting around drinking tea with Hafez al-Assad, the father, having to sit there for five, six, ten hours, listening to polite but long discourses on greater Syria and, at the end of that, having gotten nothing.
There is absolutely no reason to assume, based on the track record, that negotiations and conversations with the Syrians would yield any fruit.
And as a consequence, rather than doing that, I think it is incumbent on the United States to use whatever moral force and moral power it has and also let allies do the talking.
QUESTION: Do you think there's a sense, among the Israelis, that the longer it takes for Secretary Rice to announce her plans, that perhaps they are getting the green light that it's OK to go ahead and pound away?
SNOW: I don't know how to interpret what the Israelis may read into it or not. As I said yesterday, she's not going to go with an empty satchel.
And, you know, when you have conditions in which the United States can play a constructive role in achieving the two aims -- number one, supporting an end to the terror, but really the thing that we can help out with, we think, is ultimately providing some sort of solution where you can get stability and peace in southern Lebanon.
That's where we can play the constructive role. And you just have to wait until the conditions are right for that.
QUESTION: But is the administration entertaining the idea that perhaps Israel has absolutely no interest in working out any kind of peace agreement and that now the moment has presented itself to wipe Hezbollah off the map and there's no amount of diplomacy that's going to prevent Israel from doing that?
SNOW: Honestly, I don't know. You know, there's been a lot of speculation.
A lot of these questions are premised on the notion that we're actively engaged in military conversations about what Israel is doing, is not going to do, and what its plans are.
What we've done is limit our comments to what we've said many times, which is we want Israel to practice caution. And especially, as regards civilian deaths on any side, we think it's a horrible thing. And they should be absolutely limited to the greatest extent practicable and possible.
So, those are the kinds of conversations and guidance we've had. As far as what the Israelis see, you know, that's sort of a question to direct to them.
QUESTION: One more follow-on to that. To follow on his point, the president seems to be talking about this now in terms of the war on terror...
SNOW: Yes.
QUESTION: ... casting Hezbollah as a terrorist group and another democratic foothold that needs to be established.
Does that make it more palatable to a greater cross-section of Americans?
SNOW: I don't know. You'll have to ask the pollsters.
But let's back up. This is a democracy. What the president wants to do is to protect the democratic government in Lebanon -- an elected democratic government.
Now we played a role, through U.N. Resolution 1559, getting the Syrians out. But it is clear Prime Minister Siniora, with whom the president has talked, is still trying and hoping to get control over all of his country. So, I mean, that's the basic aim.
I don't know -- take another run at it; maybe I can be a little more helpful on this.
QUESTION: It seems to be the terms of the discussion -- you're not just talking about a war, you're talking about something where there's been a particular attempt in the administration for resonance, when you talk about war on terror...
SNOW: OK. Yes, yes, but...
QUESTION: And that we can support...
SNOW: Well, I don't think it's an attempt to find resonance. It's a statement of the facts, which is that Hezbollah, you know, which is financed by Iran and protected by Syria, that does the dimension of a war on terror, because what do you have?
In war on terror, we're facing not duly constituted armies, but terrorist groups who operate independently within the boundaries of otherwise sovereign nations.
And what they end up doing is jeopardizing those sovereign nations, and using murder and killing as a way either to weaken the will of the people involved or to try to weaken the cause of peace and stability in the region.
So I think it's perfectly accurate to say that, in that sense, this is in fact part of the war on terror. That's not positioning, because all of the members of the G-8, many whom disagreed with our policy in Iraq, every member of the G-8 signed onto this.
And also what you have had is, again, the Arab League taking the extraordinary step in a case where Israel is involved in hostilities with people within an Arab nation, have condemned Hezbollah.
So this is not political posturing; this is a statement of the world as it is, and trying to sort of tease out the consequences if Hezbollah is allowed to prevail.
QUESTION: You've seen the reporting on whether or not Israel's approached you with some sort of time limit -- Give us a week, give us two weeks?
SNOW: Again, those kinds of discussions, to my knowledge -- I don't want to get any further leaning, but every readout I've had does not have that kind of a discussion. There's a lot of thinking about it...
QUESTION: Is there a measure of success that you've talked to the Israelis about, a point they reach where they feel like they've successfully...
SNOW: I think the Israelis are going to have to define what they consider success. What we consider success is return the soldiers and stop firing rockets. Those are the positions that we've had. That's dependent less on Israel than on Hezbollah.
QUESTION: In terms of the measure of success again, though, the United States has clearly some stake in that. Is there any red line that they cross? Is there any point where you say, look, we've got to try a cease-fire, because you've gone too far?
At what point do you look at the government of Lebanon...
SNOW: We haven't gotten there. What we've done is talked with -- we've been talking with Prime Minister Siniora...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
SNOW: Honestly, I don't know. What if -- what you end up getting into is a game of what if. You're assuming that we're going to be able to project one, two, three, 10 days out what's likely to be the situation. I don't think anybody in this room knows it.
And for that matter, the president in the Oval Office doesn't have the kind of prescience to know what's going to happen in a few days. We literally don't know.
As you know, in a situation like this, you respond constantly to the changing conditions on the ground, or the Israelis are going to have to, and diplomatically, you do the same thing.
So what we are doing is constantly assessing what's going on. I think to try to describe sort of abstractly, and it would be an abstraction, what a red line might be, I think it's difficult to do QUESTION: To the measure of success: Is the measure of success from your point of view, from the Israelis' point of view then that they return the soldiers and stop?
SNOW: What the president has always said -- I'm not going to speak for the Israelis. You can call Danny Ayalon if you -- is he still here? I think this is his last week. You can call Danny Ayalon.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
SNOW: No, you ask them what their success is. What the president has said, over and over, it's real clear: Return the soldiers, stop firing the rockets. Those are the conditions that he set.
The measure of success? I don't know. That's what the president has said -- that's what the president has said that he expects from Hezbollah. I don't know how he defines it yet.
How on Earth do you define success in the Middle East? I mean, the thousands of years -- I'm afraid nobody's ever -- even trying to talk about success -- I think what you want to try to find out is: How do you create the conditions that Hezbollah stops operating as an independent terrorist force in southern Lebanon, and, number two, how the Siniora government is able to stand on its own two feet throughout Lebanon and have effective control of the entire country and the support it needs to succeed?
QUESTION: You know, what I think a lot of these questions are asking about is there is this perception that the administration is kind of tacitly giving Israel the go-ahead to...
SNOW: Yes, and the assumption is that we're sitting around at the war map saying, "Do this, this and this." And as I've said over and over, we're not engaged in military strategy sessions with the Israelis. We're not colluding, we're not cooperating, we're not conspiring, we're not doing any of that.
The Israelis are doing what they think is necessary to protect their borders.
QUESTION: OK, then, to follow: Is the president satisfied with the Siniora government's statements about Hezbollah and its attempts to rein Hezbollah in?
SNOW: You know, statements are a wonderful thing, but what you want to be able to do is to make sure that the Siniora government is no longer itself terrorized so the prime minister can have effective control over all of Lebanon.
That's really -- we think the prime minister's absolutely right in calling for Hezbollah to cease and desist. But the one thing that's most important, I think, is to make sure that Hezbollah actually do that.
QUESTION: Tony, when the violence eventually stops, a number of measures are being discussed to stop it from re-occurring. Why don't you just get your take, if you could, on some of these: 12-mile buffer zone in southern Lebanon along the border with Israel, expansion of the UNIFIL force, international monitoring team, border surveillance, international arms embargo on Lebanon? SNOW: Yes, I mean, all of that -- no, I can't speak to specifics for the obvious reason, that people are -- what you're hearing is this floating of a lot of ideas, and they all have various practical import. But it's premature.
I think it's safe to say that parties of goodwill want to make sure that, if and when there's a chance to go ahead and make sure that southern Lebanon is secure, that it is done in such a way that guarantees long-term peace, does not allow the terrorist conditions to re-arise in that area, and provides the conditions that will allow the Siniora government to do its job effectively.
And you're going to hear all sorts of stuff floated. And honestly, I just think people, right now, are noodling. It's like, you know, brainstorming on a chalk board. People put up lots of options.
But it's probably not going to be until the conditions are right for actually moving that people are going to settle on any final decision on how to proceed. That's just the way it works.
So, in other words, you set up lots of options, but you may have to wait to figure out which options will actually be appropriate and which will work.
QUESTION: And has the U.S. reached a decision on whether or not it will support the new international peace-keeping forces, stronger ones (ph), stability force...
SNOW: Again, I refer you to my previous answer because it's really the same thing.
QUESTION: Short of sufficiently eliminating Hezbollah's military capability, how does the president believe the world can deal with the root causes of this violence?
SNOW: Well, a couple of things: it's pretty clear, based on what happened at the G-8, that you put pressure on Iran and Syria. Today the Department of Treasury announced, for instance, and I'll pull up my notes on this, two more Iranian weapons proliferations firms that have been designated for their ties to missile proliferation.
That would be Sanam Industrial Group and the Ya Mahdi Industries Group. You put economic pressure on. You put diplomatic pressure on.
And I think what may be surprising to Hezbollah and its sponsors is the extent to which they have been isolated by this.
Quite often, as you know, acts of violence of this sort are designed to isolate Israel. And it's had the absolute opposite effect. While there are criticisms of Israel, as you know, within the Middle East and elsewhere, the one thing that's really clear is that that has not provided any kind of free pass for Hezbollah, Iran or Syria.
QUESTION: The president's talked extensively about Syria. He's only mentioned Iran a few times.
Can you talk about the level of support Iran is giving Hezbollah in this current crisis, the types of weapons, kind of support, finances, et cetera?
SNOW: Even if I knew, I wouldn't tell you. I mean, that gets into the disclosure of intelligence and all that sort of thing. Good for me I don't know, so I don't have to worry about faking it.
But the fact is, it would be absolutely inappropriate because, as you know, having been a Pentagon correspondent, that once you do that, you end up disclosing far more than you wish to reveal.
QUESTION: Is it fair to say the president feels that Syria and Iran are equally responsible for Hezbollah's actions over the past...
SNOW: They're both responsible. I mean, I don't think anybody is sitting around saying, "48 percent, 52 percent." I think that's a pointless exercise. I think the president's making it clear, especially in conversations. And I know a lot of you have read into the fact that sometimes he's mentioned Syria but not Iran.
Don't read anything into it. He has made it clear, especially in foreign leader calls, that he holds both nations responsible.
And how you apportion the percentage of responsibility, I don't know.
QUESTION: If the reports are correct and we, in fact, didn't know about the weapons advances that Hezbollah have made, is there some frustration or embarrassment within the intelligence community at the moment?
SNOW: Well, you've asked me one of those "ifs." And the answer is: I don't know what the knowledge was about intelligence and, therefore, I can't answer it. Sorry.
QUESTION: Well, it seems -- certainly according to the reports -- that we didn't know that they have made significant advances.
SNOW: Again, I don't know
QUESTION: Do you know?
SNOW: No, I don't know what the intelligence is. I literally don't know what the intelligence was before the fact. And until my security clearance clears, I'm not going to have access to it. I'm told it's a few more weeks.
(LAUGHTER)
No, that's true. You know, you come here, you're a new guy, you've got to get the clearances.
QUESTION: Tony, two questions. One: Last night, celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Indian- American Friendship Council, Dr. Krishna Reddy brought over 120 member of Congress from both sides, senators and congressmen, on the Capitol Hill, and they were all supporting the U.S.-India Civil Nuclear Agreement.
SNOW: Right.
QUESTION: And which yesterday, you mentioned that G-8 also, prime minister of India and the president had a discussion on the same issue.
So, now, next month there will be voting, final voting in the U.S. Congress.
QUESTION: So where is the president now? How is he getting support as to...
SNOW: The president supports the agreement. He made it clear to Prime Minister Singh. He's made it clear to members of Congress. So far the votes have been overwhelmingly in favor in committee, and we'll just have to see how it proceeds. I mean, that's a no-brainer.
QUESTION: And, second, as far as on terrorism is concerned. Also, G-8 made a statement on terrorism that we have to bring all kinds of terrorism to justice, including all the organizers, supporters and sponsors and financers.
And the prime minister of with India is under pressure in India from the Indians on the bombings that they should cut off all diplomatic relations with Pakistan because the prime minister of India has barred off the dialogue with Pakistan. He is also calling on the Musharaff government to stop in sponsoring terrorism across the border, including in Bombay.
So what do you think...
SNOW: You're trying to get us in the middle of a diplomatic dispute. The president -- you're asking how the president feels about breaking developments. I think it's inappropriate to comment.
QUESTION: A question with a short prelude. Obviously, at least according to what the Israeli ambassador to the U.N. is saying, Israel's goals are more far-reaching than U.S. goals in ending the violence. He said last night on CNN that the intent of Israel is to destroy the Hezbollah -- at least it's ability to wage war there.
My question is: Why send Condi Rice when, obviously, at this point she can only talk to the one side in the conflict? Has the president considered perhaps sending Bush 41 and Clinton, who had a pretty good track record after the tsunamis?
SNOW: What?
QUESTION: Well, you just said...
SNOW: We just said that Condi Rice is not going to go until the conditions are right, so we'll wait until the conditions are right.
QUESTION: I said her talks now would be pretty much one-sided...
SNOW: Yes...
QUESTION: Now, wait a minute, you said yourself correctly that both Bush 41 and Clinton had talks with President Assad. There is precedent...
SNOW: Which would be blazingly pointless.
QUESTION: Well, it's a start.
SNOW: No, Richard.
The start is to place -- no, wrong. I mean, it may sound good that you dispatch somebody who then could be dealt with in bad faith by a government that does not intend to deliver.
I think whatever you may think of it, the United States position is clear. And you don't dispatch delegations on missions that already are contrary to the stated position of this government.
And I guarantee you, President Bush 41, and I doubt President Clinton, would agree to such a thing.
QUESTION: Is the president concerned that his veto of the stem cell bill is going to hurt Republicans running in the fall election?
SNOW: Not a bit.
QUESTION: He doesn't feel he's...
SNOW: No, but I'll tell you what. It's worth pointing out one thing. Actually, several things on stem cells.
Number one, the president is the first-ever to have financed research using embryonic stem cell lines. Number two, there's a bit of demagoguery in the House of Representatives. Representative Castle was circulating talking points about a measure that the House ended up killing that would have provided for research into promising areas that would give us access to what he wants, which are plurally potent cells.
But rather than using embryos, it could use adult cells and other cells, and using techniques that are now being pioneered here in the United States to provide exactly what he wants.
And instead, what he did is he circulated a series of misleading and fallacious talking points. And on that particular matter, the president is disappointed in the House of Representatives.
Let me just give you a couple of examples. You know, one of the things that Representative Castle is saying is that it mandates the National Institutes of Health the support highly speculative research, some of which has been deemed unethical by the president's own bioethics council.
Wrong. False. One hundred percent wrong.
As a matter of fact, what the bioethics council said is that this precise kind of research, because it does not place in jeopardy the life of a human being, which is what many people think that the embryo is, and that is what the president believes.
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