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American Morning

"Life in Hell": A Baghdad Diary; How Well is Bush Handling the Middle East Crisis?; Same-Sex Marriage and the Episcopal Church

Aired August 07, 2006 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Soledad O'Brien.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris in for Miles O'Brien. Good morning, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: And back at you, man. It's nice to have you filling in for Miles.

HARRIS: It's good to be here with you.

O'BRIEN: He's on a ten-week vacation. No. He's got a couple of days off. Thanks, Tony. We appreciate it.

(NEWSBREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: The sound of gunfire and explosions rattled a neighborhood in eastern Baghdad for more than an hour today. At least three people were killed and more than a dozen injured when U.S. and Iraqi forces raided a Shiite militia stronghold in the Sadr City district. The U.S. military says the fighting started when soldiers stormed the area to catch extremists suspected of running torture cells. One coalition soldier was among the injured.

And in the northern city of Tikrit, at least 15 people were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a funeral procession. Police say the bomber mingled with the crowd before detonating his explosive belt.

So what's it like for Iraqis living every day with car bombings, kidnappings and worsening violence? Bobby Ghosh is a senior correspondent for "Time" magazine, and the author of this week's cover story, "Life in Hell: A Baghdad Diary." He joins us from the Iraqi capital.

Bobby, good to see you.

APARISIM GHOSH, "TIME" SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Tony.

HARRIS: What a read in the magazine. How to bring this all into perspective for folks watching us this morning -- are we watching a civil war before our eyes in Baghdad?

GHOSH: I think we are. Most Iraqis, if you ask them, will tell you that a civil war is already underway. And my policy is that if the local people say so, then it is very likely true. Neighborhoods that have been harmonious and unified for a thousand years have now turned into battlefields between Shiites and Sunnis, former neighbors. People are being killed at a rate of 100 per day, according to the United Nations, because they're either Shiite or Sunni. Those kinds of numbers make it sound very much like a civil war -- Tony.

HARRIS: Bobby, it's a simple question. I have to ask it. What has gone so wrong in Baghdad in particular?

GHOSH: Well, Baghdad is -- about 40 percent of the population of the country lives here. This is obviously the capital city. For the good guys as well as the bad guys, this is the key battleground. The insurgents; the militias, Shiite or Sunni; have decided a long time ago that they would make this their last stand.

And for the Iraqi government as well as the U.S. military, cleaning up Baghdad is the crucial issue. Time and again, officials -- government officials and American officials -- have told me, where goes Baghdad, there goes Iraq.

HARRIS: OK, Bobby, the pictures that accompany the article also tell a story, and very vividly. And we're going to show some of these pictures. I know that you can't see them where you are, but you know what we're referring to. And Kelly's (ph) going to help us with these pictures.

The first picture is a shot of driving in Baghdad. Describe what it's like when you land at the airport and drive along that road that we've heard about for years now, how treacherous and dangerous it can be. And then driving in general in Baghdad.

GHOSH: Well, that's a picture of one of our staff drivers. And he has an AK-47 on his lap. And that's typical for us when we travel. And I'm sure it's true for the CNN crews as well. That road, the road from the airport into the city, is known as the Highway of Death. That's what local people call it. It has been the scene of dozens, maybe hundreds, of attacks against U.S. and Iraqis. Most of the casualties have been ordinary civilians.

I should say, though, that that particular road has gotten a little safer in recent months. Ironically, that is the only place in Baghdad that has gotten safer. Because the poison, if you like, has spread from that road across the city. And there are neighborhoods now all over this place that are now too dangerous for people to travel, even when they're armed.

HARRIS: We're going to get back to the bad news in a second. But I can't end this without asking you -- and I don't ask this -- I don't ask the question because, you know, I want to set you up for some kind of an attack that journalists don't report the good news in Baghdad -- but if there is any good news to report, you've been there so many times now, what is it?

GHOSH: Well, I've been here for three-and-a-half years, Tony. I've been covering the story since before the war started. And I would desperately love to have good news to report. Unfortunately, for ordinary Iraqis, there's very little of it about. And perhaps the worst thing of it all, human beings will tolerate almost any atrocity as long as there's hope for things getting better, Tony. But what I sense now among Iraqis that I speak to is a loss of hope, a feeling, a sinking feeling that things are about to get worse.

When I ask people here if there are any good news stories, they look at my sadly, and those who have a sense of humor will smile at me. But there are no really good stories to tell here.

HARRIS: Boy. We're not talking -- not a school that's working, a construction project that's working? We can't find anything that says, OK, we can...

GHOSH: Well, if you look -- well, sometimes you think that there is a piece of good news, and you look at it closely and you find that it is not. A couple of months ago, Abu Musab Zarqawi was killed, and we all thought that was a turning point. It turns out it's not.

Al Qaeda is just as deadly as it used to be. You reported a little earlier in your bulletin another suicide bomber. Suicide bombers are back in the daily headlines here. Two months ago a new government was formed in this country, supposedly a national unity golf. And we thought that would be good news, and that would a turning point. Unfortunately, that's not how it's turned out.

The government is bickering. The ministers fight amongst themselves. They are opposed to each other; even though they are now under the same tent, Shiites and Sunni lawmakers are constantly at each other's throat. And they have compromised the ability of this government to crack down on the militias that are the source of most of the trouble here.

HARRIS: More U.S. troops on the ground, from 7,200 to 14,000, will that make a difference?

GHOSH: That will make a difference. The difficulty is, how long will these troops stay here? Every time the U.S. military comes into the city there is a lull, there is a silence, because the bad guys know there's nothing to be gained in standing up and fighting with the U.S. military. That's the shortest route to death.

So typically what happens when the U.S. troops come into town is that the bad guys melt away and they disappear for a few weeks. They go some place elsewhere there aren't so many American soldiers and they start fighting there. And when the soldiers here stand down or go back to the bases, the bad guys turn up again. And then once again, you have a daily drum roll of death, and car bombs, and suicide bombings and kidnappings and so on.

HARRIS: You do a wonderful job of sort of chronicling the news, bad as it is. Bobby Ghosh, senior correspondent for "Time" magazine, an amazing read, the cover story in this week's edition of the magazine.

Bobby, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

GHOSH: Thank you, Tony.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Senator Joe Lieberman's re- election battle. If Lieberman loses, what happens to the Democratic Party, and what happens to the 2008 presidential race? We'll take a look at that just ahead.

GHOSH: Plus, a pair of pastors at the center of a huge controversy. Their relationship could reshape the Episcopal Church. We'll tell you how. Those stories just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: President Bush wants quick U.N. action on a cease-fire plan as a first step to ending the fighting in the Middle East. This morning he's going to address U.S. efforts to make that happen. But how do we think -- how do Americans think the president is handling the crisis, is what I'm trying to say.

CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider in Los Angeles this morning.

Hey, Bill, good morning to you, now that I can get that out.

Let's get right to the polls if we can. There's a new poll Quinnipiac University poll that talks a little bit about what I think is a big issue, which is Joe Lieberman versus Ned Lamont. Let's start with that before we get to the president. What's the breaking news there?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POL. ANALYST: The breaking news is that the lead of Ned Lamont, who's challenging Senator Lieberman in tomorrow's Democratic primary, looks like it's narrowed over the weekend. There is now a six-point lead. That Quinnipiac poll shows Lieberman -- sorry, Lamont 51 percent, a narrow majority, Lieberman 45. So the indication is that race could be tightening up.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. I do that one first, because of course it is the alignment with Senator Lieberman and the president that has seems to have spelled some trouble for the senator.

Let's take a look at how Americans look at the administration's strategy in the Middle East. What are the numbers there?

SCHNEIDER: Well, the numbers there show very mixed feelings. Americans say, 43 percent say they approve of the way President Bush is handling the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel, 46 percent disapprove. That disapproval at 46 is considerably different than the president's rating on Iraq. On Iraq, 62 percent disapprove of what he's doing. What is the president doing that Americans are OK with? They want to stay out of the fighting. The United States so far has stayed out of the fighting. Americans are sympathetic with Israel. The president is sympathetic with Israel. But they also want the Hezbollah threat eliminated.

Remember, Hezbollah killed over 200 American Marines in the attack in the 1980s. Americans have not forgotten that.

O'BRIEN: The second measure of the resolution talks about peacekeeping troops. And Americans support that, even if it involves U.S. troops, which would not necessarily be the case, but that's the way the poll was asked, wasn't it?

SCHNEIDER: Yes, the poll asked Americans, would you support U.S. troops participating on the ground in an international peacekeeping force on the border between Lebanon and Israel? As you can see, Americans are closely divided. Fifty-one percent say they would favor it. This isn't a very partisan issue. Democrats and Republicans are pretty much the same. Why? Because it's a peacekeeping force, not a military intervention, a peacekeeping force. And No. 2, the poll said specifically U.S. troops would participate along with troops from other countries, so the risk would be shared.

O'BRIEN: The "along with" is the part that everybody is happier with.

SCHNEIDER: That's right.

O'BRIEN: Let me ask you a question now for analysis, now that we've run through all the polls. If Ned Lamont wins, what do you think that means for the big picture, the midterm elections?

SCHNEIDER: Well, it'll be a power shift in the Democratic Party, no question. It means that the debate between centrists and the anti- war activists, the so-called net roots left in the Democratic Party, the left will claim a big victory, it'll shift the Democrats energy and make them tougher. The message will be, there are a lot of Democrats out there who want their party to stand up to President Bush on the war, not to be bipartisan. They want a tougher and more aggressive Democratic Party.

O'BRIEN: Yes, but I'd put an asterisk there and say, in Connecticut.

SCHNEIDER: In Connecticut.

But I think what's happening in Connecticut -- remember, Lieberman has been one of the most pro-bush Democrats around. I think Democrats all over the country will get the message that this movement is for real, that Democrats out there are very angry and they want a tougher stand.

The big test is going to be, can the Democrats win with that message in November? Well, what the anti-war activists say, is, look, Democrats have been promoting a centrist message for years now, and they have not done very well. Let's try something that's a little tougher.

O'BRIEN: How about Lieberman? Can he win as an independent if he is forced to run as one? He says he's going to run as one if he loses in the primary.

SCHNEIDER: Well, it's his choice. He says, if he loses the primary, he intends to file a petition, which would be on Wednesday, the day the petition is due, to run as an independent against the Democrat. Presumably -- in fact, that would be Ned Lamont if he wins the primary. And there's also a Republican candidate.

My guess is that the whole Democratic establishment, which is now supporting Senator Lieberman, their support would drop off. Most of them say they would not support him if he loses the primary. There would be pressure on him to drop out. And even though the polls so far have shown him doing quite well as an independent candidate, once he loses the primary, there's a good chance that that support would start to drop off, because a lot of people resent the fact that, having lost the primary, he's running again.

O'BRIEN: So he might want to stay, but his colleagues may not let that happen.

SCHNEIDER: Certainly. There won't be the Democratic establishment support that he's got it now.

O'BRIEN: Senior political analyst Bill Schneider, part of the best political team on TV. We saw that with love, Bill.

SCHNEIDER: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Tony?

HARRIS: And up next, Andy is minding your business.

Hi, Andy.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: How are you, Tony? Don't worry, I'm not going to bite you. We've got some sports and business coming up. A little bit of a basketball quiz, you guys. What is the NBA's biggest market outside of the U.S.? No. 1. And, No. 2, how many foreign-born players will be in the NBA in the next season coming up.

HARRIS: A lot.

O'BRIEN: Japan and 25 percent.

SERWER: Wrong and wrong.

We will tell you. We'll bring you the answers coming up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

O'BRIEN: All right, Andy, thanks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: New Jersey could become the second state to allow same- sex marriage. A ruling is expected from the state supreme court any day now. One couple waiting for the decision, both Episcopal priests, is battling both the church and the state for the right to call themselves a married couple.

CNN's Delia Gallagher explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Episcopal priests Denis Winslow and Mark Lewis estimate they've performed hundreds of weddings, baptisms and Sunday services.

DENIS WINSLOW, SEEKS SAME-SEX MARRIAGE: You made us in your image...

MARK LEWIS, SEEKS SAME-SEX MARRIAGE: It's a very happy memory.

GALLAGHER: The Reverend Lewis even ministered to the first President Bush, and taught Sunday school to the current president's twin girls.

LEWIS: They were simply a joy.

GALLAGHER: Yet today, these model pastors have placed themselves at the center of a controversy roiling the Episcopal Church.

LEWIS: The very model of a modern Episcopalian, I don't know what that would be if not someone who fights for justice.

GALLAGHER: Because Pastor Denis would like very much to legally marry Pastor Mark.

WINSLOW: We see it as a civil right that we're denied. Even though we pay first-class taxes, we're treated like second-class citizens. We don't have that freedom to exercise our relationship in a practical way, in a, dare I say, spiritual way.

GALLAGHER: They have even placed their names on a landmark lawsuit against their home state of New Jersey, seeking the right for all same-sex couples to marry. The state's highest court will be deciding the issue any day now. But even if they are permitted to marry in New Jersey, the Episcopal Church won't recognize the vows. It will only offer a blessing.

REV. DAVID ANDERSON, PRES., AMERICAN ANGLICAN COUNCIL: The Old Testament speaks very clearly in its purity codes, its moral codes, about how people are to live, as far as -- you know, as marriage and as regards sexual behavior.

GALLAGHER: Do you understand that point of view, the people that look at the Bible and say...

WINSLOW: I understand it, but they're taking things outs of context in the Bible.

GALLAGHER: At the Episcopal Church's general convention this year, world leaders asked the U.S. church to refrain from blessing same-sex unions and electing gay bishops. Now the controversy over gays threatens a schism in the 77-million member worldwide Anglican Church.

WINSLOW: Well, the issue of gay marriage has effectively pulled the Episcopal Church apart.

GALLAGHER: That saddens these two pastors, but they say they have faith that both their legal and spiritual cases will eventually resolve in favor of formalizing their 15-year relationship.

WINSLOW: Resolution comes with time and with the movement of God's spirit in a body until things reach a harmony that maybe people can't even imagine.

GALLAGHER: For now, they will press their legal case in court and count on the understanding of their flock to help them make their case to their church.

Delia Gallagher, CNN, Secaucus, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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