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American Morning
Peace Plan Debate; 'New Horizons'
Aired August 08, 2006 - 08:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: At the U.N. Security Council today members are going to meet with Arab League delegates in open session. The league's ambassador to the United Nations is Yahya Mahmassani, and he's rejected the proposal drafted by the U.S. and France that calls for a cessation of hostilities.
Ambassador Mahmassani joins us this morning. It's nice to see you, sir. Thanks for coming in to talk to us.
AMBASSADOR YAHYA MAHMASSANI, ARAB LEAGUE AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Thank you for having me.
O'BRIEN: You're most welcome.
What have you proposed instead to the Security Council?
MAHMASSANI: Well, let me say at the beginning, we did not reject the proposal. We have some reservation about some items, some paragraphs, for example, the continued presence of Israeli troops on our soil, on our territory. This would constitute an occupation, and that a good reason for continuing to fight...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: So you want the Israeli troops out?
MAHMASSANI: Yes. Then on the second question regarding the exchange of prisoners, I don't think it's fair to have the Israelis two soldiers be returned back to Israel and then talk about the prisoners in -- the Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails. I think this is considered discrimination. I think there should be a simultaneous swap between both sides.
O'BRIEN: So you think that's unfair?
MAHMASSANI: That's correct. I think it is unfair.
O'BRIEN: How about Lebanese troops? Tell me about that.
MAHMASSANI: Well, I think this is a very positive sign on the Lebanese government. We're sending 15,000 strong Lebanese armed forces to patrol the whole area. I don't think Israelis should have any complaint about this. And at the same time, there are the UNIFIL troops that will support these Lebanese troops and they would be -- could be beefed up to be more effective. And I think they can do a wonderful job, a good job. There is no need for a complaint by the Israelis at all. O'BRIEN: And yet the Israelis have many complaints about it. This is Dan Gillerman. He is the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Listen to what he makes of this offer of Lebanese troops being sent to the border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN GILLERMAN, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: The Lebanese government has had at least six years to deploy its forces in the south. To expect them to do it now when they have no power, no authority, after they've relinquished their sovereignty to the Hezbollah and let themselves and the whole country be held hostage by the Hezbollah seems to me very, very unrealistic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: He says, under the best of circumstances the Lebanese troops couldn't control Hezbollah. So why now?
MAHMASSANI: That's absolutely wrong. I tell him test us, try us. We're sending the best of our units, almost 25 percent of the top Lebanese armed forces. Test us. Try us. Why don't you try us?
I think what the Israelis want is the continued destruction of Lebanon. That's exactly what they're aiming at. And this what has been proven all along since the start of these attacks on Lebanon.
O'BRIEN: But how is what you're proposing different than what we saw before hostilities began? Let's go back a month, where you had Lebanese troops who could have been deployed to the border. You had UNIFIL; they've been there since the 1970s. How is that different than what you're proposing now?
MAHMASSANI: But things have changed. Of course, now the situation is completely changed. You cannot go back to (INAUDIBLE) the hostilities.
In the first place, you know, I don't think the Israelis have the right to destroy Lebanon just because two of their soldiers are abducted. They had done it in the past. They (INAUDIBLE) in the past (INAUDIBLE) diplomatic and other channels. To go into complete destruction of a country, over 700 civilians -- you have saw them on your own network -- savagely, brutally died. Is this a reason? Is this a cause to...
O'BRIEN: But that's going to the question of did the Israelis overreact...
MAHMASSANI: Yes.
O'BRIEN: ... which I think there is a fine debate on that issue.
My question is this: Can you expect Lebanese forces, if in fact 15,000 troops go to the southern part of that country to take on Hezbollah, to fight Hezbollah, to disarm Hezbollah if they had to? MAHMASSANI: Soledad, Hezbollah is not going to fight the Lebanese forces. Hezbollah has agreed and accepted -- they are members of the cabinet. This was a decision taken to the cabinet. They have agreed, they have approved the deployment of the 15,000 soldiers, which means Hezbollah will not go into that area if the Lebanese forces are there.
O'BRIEN: OK, let's say Hezbollah decides to start lobbing missiles back into northern Israel, right? And suddenly the troop there's would be expected to do something that would require strength, military strength. Do you expect Lebanese troops would actually fight against Hezbollah? Is that realistic?
MAHMASSANI: First of all, there is no reason for Hezbollah to fire a missile if the Israeli are not attacking us. And this has been said by the spokesman of Hezbollah.
Second, the whole (INAUDIBLE) of the question, the whole issue here is that Israel is occupying our country. As long as Israeli troops are on our land, there's every reason for every Lebanese -- no only Hezbollah -- for every Lebanese to resist that occupation. The cause -- the roots of the whole issue: Israel presence on Lebanese territory. And this is what we'll object.
O'BRIEN: You have said that you're not rejecting what's been proposed to the Security Council.
MAHMASSANI: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's say it comes back and your proposal is not accepted, that, in fact, certain tenets that you put forth -- the Lebanese troops, et cetera -- is rejected, they don't want it. Would you accept what's being proposed? Would you say it's OK, Israeli troops can stay and peacekeepers come in, and the Israeli troops go out?
MAHMASSANI: Let's give negotiation and diplomatic effort a chance.
O'BRIEN: You don't do hypotheticals.
MAHMASSANI: I am optimistic. I come from the United Nations. I was all day yesterday at the U.N.; I'm going in a few minutes there. Let's give diplomacy a chance. Let's stop this brutal campaign of killing, destruction and murder. Let's stop this violence. Let's give chance -- diplomacy.
O'BRIEN: Is there a deal-breaker? Is it off if the Israeli troops aren't out? Is it off if the Lebanese troops idea is rejected?
MAHMASSANI: Soledad, I have spoken to both the American delegation and the French delegation. They both said it is not a take-it-or-leave-it issue. We're open to discussion. We're willing to discuss it. We're willing to take your views into consideration.
I've spoken to them. It's not a take-it-or-leave-it issue. There is a chance. Let's give (INAUDIBLE) diplomacy a chance.
O'BRIEN: It may not be a take-it-or-leave-it issue now, but at some point a decision will be made. And what is included in the resolution to some degree will be a take-it-or-leave-it issue whether your proposal's part of that or not.
We're out of time, Ambassador. Thank you for talking with us. We certainly appreciate your time, as always, Ambassador Mahmassani.
MAHMASSANI: Thank you, Soledad. We will know in a few hours...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Yes, we will certainly do that. We'll have you back to talk about it whatever happens.
MAHMASSANI: I would love to...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Appreciate that.
(NEWSBREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Still to come...
O'BRIEN: What are we going to call him?
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Like Brad or something?
HARRIS: Hit the brake.
Still 20 come, the biggest oil field in the U.S. could be shutdown for months for repairs, but should it have been prevented? We will take a closer look.
O'BRIEN: Coming up next, we'll tell you about a 17-year-old girl who's re-created the doll test. You remember that? Back in the 1940s and '50s? That's were black kids were asked to pick between a black doll and white doll. And they overwhelmingly chose the white doll. See how the children respond 50 years later. It's fascinating. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: It was called "the doll test." Back in the 1940s and '50s, black preschoolers were given two dolls -- one white one, one black one -- and asked which they liked better. Most said they liked the white doll better. Well, now a 17-year-old high schooler and filmmaker has recreated that doll test. And I want you to take a look as she asks a 5-year-old girl, African-American, to pick the doll that she wants to play with. Listen and watch very carefully.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you show me the doll that you like best, or that you like to play with? And can you show me the doll that looks bad? OK. And can you give -- and why does that look bad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it's black.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. And why do you think that's the nice doll?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she's white.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And can you give me the doll that looks like you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Oh. That hesitation that is just brutal. Which doll looks like you? The filmmaker, Kiri Davis, joins us this morning, along with her mentor, documentary filmmaker Shola Lynch. Nice to see you both. Thanks for talking with us. Just as powerful as it was from the '40s and '50s. Thanks for talking with us about your film.
Why did you want it recreate in your film this doll test?
KIRI DAVIS, STUDENT FILMMAKER: Well, the film's kind of about the standards of beauty. It kind of looked at how they're imposed on black girls particularly, and I interviewed those kind of girls on these standards. And, like, you can tell people how these standards affect people all you want and how it might affect self-esteem or self image. But until you figure out a way to really show them and really show, like, with children, how it's, like, affecting them, that's when it really registers with people and that's when they finally really get the message.
O'BRIEN: It's amazing. I mean, five years old. You almost think that they would be too young to really understand the messages. And the child's sort of nodding her head saying, no, it's not. Were you surprised -- virtually every black person I've spoken to has said I'm not surprised at all?
SHOLA LYNCH, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER AND MENTOR: I actually was surprised. And I was surprised that a lot the kids that chose it's black doll as good were immigrant children from countries outside of the U.S. So what does that say about the U.S. media and what's being absorbed by these young people?
But, you know, in terms of getting the message across, I'd like to say Kiri as a filmmaker -- what we focused on; my job as a mentee was to help her articulate her vision -- and we focused on what she could do. And the doll test was something that could be replicated. And so it was an amazing way to contextualize what these young girls were talking about in terms of their own self-esteem, standards of beauty, what they thought was good hair and bad hair, and to give it a broader and bigger sentence.
O'BRIEN: In a way it's sad. I really should mention first that this program, which is called Real Works Teen Filmmaking -- it's an after-school program for high schoolers -- pairs high schoolers with mentors.
DAVIS: Out in Brooklyn at the Y -- at the Brooklyn YMCA.
O'BRIEN: At the Brooklyn YMCA is where you were working. I mean, in a way, what's so depressing is that things haven't changed. I mean, if years and years and decades later, we're still figuring out, well, what's good hair and what's bad hair? And who's got light skin and who's got dark skin? Which makes you pretty and which doesn't make you pretty? It's kind of depressing.
DAVIS: You know, I went to two schools -- two day-care centers right out in Harlem where I did the tests, and...
O'BRIEN: How did you pick them?
DAVIS: I just -- I had volunteered there before. And basically I knew people that worked there.
O'BRIEN: So sort of randomly?
DAVIS: Yes. I got my permission slip signed and basically even though it was 50 years ago, many things, I guess, haven't changed. And even at four or five years old, you can tell what America values and what it doesn't.
O'BRIEN: I thought it was interesting -- I read how you were preparing for the doll test. And had to go out and, of course, find a black doll and a white doll. And even that was hard.
DAVIS: Yes. That -- just trying to find a white doll and a black doll that kind of looked the same, and go in different toy stores and try to get that, I just couldn't really find it. I thought...
O'BRIEN: What, there were no black dolls in stock?
DAVIS: There weren't that many at all.
LYNCH: That's actually what I found so shocking. When Kiri came to me, and I said, well, let's go to F.A.O. Schwarz, check out Toys 'R Us...
DAVIS: They didn't have it.
LYNCH: They didn't have it.
O'BRIEN: That is surprising. That is surprising. I want to remind everybody at the -- you can see this movie online. And I've seen it 15 times already this morning...
DAVIS: Oh, wow. O'BRIEN: So I'm going to give everybody the URL, and I want you to write it down so you can quick, go and take a look. As soon as we're off the air at the end of segment, I'm going to give that to you. And our parent company, Time Warner, I should mention, also helped underwrite this whole program.
So what does it say, in the big picture? I mean, what's the takeaway and how do you fix things? Or is it impossible?
DAVIS: That's a good question. How do you fix things? Everyone wants to know. And I think just kind of acknowledging this issue, because at times, like, when I made the film it was almost too taboo to even talk about these kind of things that were going on, and these standards of beauty, or...
O'BRIEN: Among black people or white people or both?
DAVIS: I think both. Or in general, in American society, they kind of talk about these things. And that's why I kind of wanted to make a film about it. And so I think sometimes people do certain things, but it's subconsciously almost. And so I hope that kind of brings awareness to people, in terms of how they're kind of giving in to certain standards, or in terms of what children say.
O'BRIEN: What did the people at the Y, when they saw their own students perform in that test and pick time again -- time and again...
DAVIS: Oh, at the harbor (ph), the day-care center.
O'BRIEN: Yes, at the day-care center. What was the reaction?
DAVIS: They were pretty shocked. Some of them were crying and tearing up. It was a big surprise to a lot of people, I think. And just kind of realizing how these children were feeling and how things were affecting these children. And so they've like -- since then they've kind of altered their curriculum to try to make -- have more programs and stuff that will help with like self-esteem.
O'BRIEN: Do you think that's going to help? Or is it a matter of, you still can't find a black doll when you go to F.A.O. Schwarz or any toy company?
LYNCH: I think it's a matter of parents and school teachers educating kids that, you know -- that there is more about black culture than even the media. That if you know something about your history -- I mean, Kiri's parents have done an amazing job. She knew the doll test existed, that 1957 test...
O'BRIEN: Most 17-year-olds do not.
LYNCH: Most -- absolutely. So she has a base of knowledge that lot of teenagers don't have, and she was able to use that. Well, we need to know our history, our culture. We need to know we come from a long line of people who have been engaged and activists. You know, that we can't flatten that. For instance, the civil rights movement didn't just happen because one woman stood up. It was a movement that had been around for decades, right?
O'BRIEN: Know your history is really the message there. I got to tell you, this is such a moving film. It's a beautiful film. I know you've won a bunch of awards. And you should be really, really proud of yourselves.
DAVIS: Oh, thank you.
O'BRIEN: And I promised I'm going to give out the URL so everybody can keep the TV on, but run to their computers, too. And you want to go to www.mediathatmattersfest.org, is the URL.
LYNCH: And realworks.org, as well, is the program that Kiri was a part of that is funded by great organizations. Kids have a voice.
O'BRIEN: Like Time Warner, our parent company.
LYNCH: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Kiri Davis, terrific job. Thanks for being with us.
DAVIS: Oh, thank you.
O'BRIEN: Also Shola Lynch. Thanks for being with us. We certainly appreciate it.
Andy Serwer is going to be "Minding Your Business," coming up next. You want to stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: We're going to take a look at the day's top stories right after this short break.
Stay with us. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: This morning CNN begin a new series, "New Horizons," where we look at people of retirement age who are pursuing their passions. For them, the golden ages aren't about slowing down. They're about new opportunities and new challenges. Meet one 77-year- old woman who is making her professional dreams come true.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the main thing is you're in now and you're comfortable.
JULIA STOUFFER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Julia Nasso is living her dream. Two yeas ago the retired travel agents started Big City Development, a company that oversees construction projects for homeowners. They work with contractors, architects and designers to make sure that things are done on time and within budget.
JULIA NASSO, PRES. & CEO, BIG CITY DEVELOPMENT: We come in and talk to the homeowner and find out exactly what they're looking for, and we try to help you make decisions. We are your representative really.
STOUFFER: Julia developed her love from construction from her father, who was in the business. She kept his books and learned from him, but he saw it as no place for a woman.
NASSO: Even though I was doing all of the paperwork and backup work, that was OK. But to go actually on the job, he didn't think that was very lady-like.
STOUFFER: More than 50 years later, she's returned to the construction business, and proved she's more than tough enough to handle the job, and age hasn't slowed her down at all.
NASSO: I think it's very exciting. I don't see retirement as a sit-still proposition. I see retirement as possibly changing a lifestyle and doing something different.
STOUFFER: Linda Stouffer, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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